Page 48 of 85
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:41 am
by james
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:32 am
by true_bohra
monginis wrote:
yeah those dawat text which are manipulated by mufy gang
Kindly prove which dawat text is been manipulated according to you. Enlighten us with your dharm gyaan.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:49 am
by monginis
true_bohra wrote:monginis wrote:
yeah those dawat text which are manipulated by mufy gang
Kindly prove which dawat text is been manipulated according to you. Enlighten us with your dharm gyaan.
this whole website is manipulated and any one can with common sense can sense it, I am not surprise if you cant see any thing wrong in it.
may be eating WORMS on daily basis affected your understanding ability.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9482&view=unread#unread
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 5:07 am
by y-kuc
true_bohra wrote:monginis wrote:
yeah those dawat text which are manipulated by mufy gang
Kindly prove which dawat text is been manipulated according to you. Enlighten us with your dharm gyaan.
Ref to :
http://quran.com/3/7.
This is the ayah we read differently to than other factions in islam and which is used as an excuse to manipulate dawat texts,
Part of the ayah goes like this - And no one knows its [true] interpretation
except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
We read it without a pause between the allah and Rasekhun fil 3elm. Thus making it mean that no one knows its true interpration except allah and those who are firm in knowledge THUS giving an excuse to the alleged learned of dawat of knowing the meaning of texts and manipulating them.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:21 am
by Fatema MN
@James I read the links. Honestly, the explanations fall way short of convincing me.
1) If it was norm to call Syedi Mazoon saheb 'Moula' (as per explanation) then why did Mufaddal bhaisaab himself stop people from calling him (Mazoon) Moula later?
2) If it was norm to write TUS after the Mazoon's name, then later, why did Mufaddal bhaisaab himself object to people doing doa of tulul umr for the Mazoon?
3) The explanation faults fatemi dawat for not mentioning the date, but it looks like Mufddal bhaisaab himself has forgotten to write the date on the letter, and as we all know now, he is not very good at remembering dates
4) The website is trying to draw a parallel between the letter written my Imam Mansur to ustad Juzer, where there is none. quoting from the site
.."However, even though Imam Mansur was in the most ‘Aala and Afḍal rutba after Imam Qa’im, these are the words and etiquette that he used when writing to Juzer. He had to hide his rutba, he could not manifest it openly, even with Juzer who was privy to its knowledge."
In this case, Mufaddal bhaisaab was not aware of his own 'rutba' at the time of writing this letter, as per his own admittance, so there is no question of hiding his 'rutba'!
5) The Website asks,
"Is this not the same traditional and age old etiquette and character that we see in the letter from Moulana TUS to Khuzeima!" OF COURSE NOT! Mufaddal bhaisaab's letter is
way more than just polite etiquette! The Imam's letter is a polite letter giving advice to ustad Juzer, but by no means is the letter anything close to what Mufaddal bhaisaab has written. Mufaddal bhaisaab's letter is full of praise for his Moula!
He calls him Maula, and himself his ghulaam, over and over in this letter.
He says he is fida for him.
He describes Syedna Qutbuddin’s face as “full of noor.”
He prays for long life for him, using the “tul-ul-umr” formula for a total of 8 times in this letter.
He refers to Syedna Burhanuddin and Syedna Qutbuddin as “beve Maula.” He prays for “tul-ul-umr till qiyamat” for “beve Maula”.
He begs for the honor of celebrating Syedna Qutbuddin’s salgirah in his presence.
He refers to Syedna Qutbuddin’s shafaqat and tenderness for him.
He states that Syedna Mohammad Burhanuddin is very pleased with Syedna Qutbuddin.
For the benefit of all, here is the translation of the Imam's letter:
May Allah be forgive you. May he be benevolent towards you and complete his grace to you. Allah knows that I avoid things and I loathe speaking about any matter. However, when I remembered your righteousness, your affection, and my closeness to you, I considered that endearment erases bashfulness and requires that I be not stingy with you in giving sincere advice…. (Trans. Hamid Haji)
Pray, where is the resemblance???
Now coming back to my original question, do you think that the experiences shared by mumineen on the
http://www.mostbelovedson.com website are true?
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:25 am
by Fatema MN
@true_bohra
Yes, I have full faith in the A'la kitaabs of dawat and therefore 'I believe in Syedna Qutbuddin (TUS)'!
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:11 pm
by true_bohra
Firstly which aala qitab is mentioning him to be the Dai.
Secondly He compares the rutba of mazoon to be very close to dai and receiving of ilhaam by them but its Syedna RA himself who clarified that mazooon and mukasir works under the orders of dai and no ilhaams are recd by them.
Third and the most important thing, in Dawoodi bohra doctrines, a dai is considered to be 'kal masoom' or infalliable. I know that reformist will again debate on this but its about doctrine of belief. So KQ should also be kal maasoom whereas Syedna RA himself stated that bhai se galti thai che. What do you have to say about this.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:15 pm
by true_bohra
@mongy
I asked for the proof and its a lame answer that whole site is manipulated. You said dawat texts are manipulated on this site, so which text are you referring. KINDLY SHARE YOUR DHARM GYAAN WITH US.
Syedna Qutbuddin Saani TUS - Numbers
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:22 pm
by adna_mumin
53 is a Prime Number
So is 29 - the date on which Syedna Qutbuddin [Saani] tus was born in Rabi Akhar
He celebrates the 77th milad in the year he becomes Dail Mutlaq.
77 minus 53 is
24
53 minus 29 is
24
He is the 21st Dai after Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed. 53-32 =21
Arithmetic modulus (The simplest example of which is the Hour clock in which time is a modulo 12.. so 15:00 hours is 3 pm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulus_arithmetic
He becomes Da'i 381 years after Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed became Dai'l mutlaq.
381 mod 21 is
3.
1646 mod 53 is
3. 1646 is the Gregorian year Syedna Qutbuddin shaheed ra becomes Dai.
The
3rd month of Hijri Calendar is Rabi Awwal, the month in which Syedna Qutbuddin Saani tus became dai.
381 mod 32 is
29.
32 is the # of Dai's going back to Syedna Qutbuddin shaheed ra and
29 is the date of Syedna Qutbuddin Saani tus Milaad
786 mod 381 is
24 - See above for
24 significance.
381 mod 53 is 10 - And the significance of 10 (Moharram) needs no explanation.
1054 mod 77 is 53
Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA became Dai Mutlaq in the year 1054 H
It has been 379 years to shahadat of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA.
379 mod 32 is
27
1435 mod 32 is
27
1435 mod 128 is
27 (Adad of Arabic Word Husain is 128, mumineen do tasbeeh of Imam Husain as some may know 128 times)
The day of Shahadat of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA is
27 of Jumadil Ukhra (this month)
There are some more such highlights that one continues to observe. This was just a small list of calculations i came across and i am sure there must be many more that more competent folks would be able to extract.
May Allah ta guide us all in the path of Siraat al mustaqeem. Aameen.
Re: Syedna Qutbuddin Saani TUS - Numbers
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:33 pm
by anajmi
I was born in November. November is the month in which the movie Unstoppable was released. I got married in October. October is also the month in which the movie Jackass 3d was released. It was also the month in which the movie Tangled was released.
My daughter was born in July. July was also the month in which the movie Inception was released. My son was born in April. April is also the month in which Kick-Ass was released.
I am a big Hollywood fan. Didn't know God was scheduling movie releases with events in my life. I guess I must be special eh?
Re: Syedna Qutbuddin Saani TUS - Numbers
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:55 pm
by wise_guy
adna_mumin wrote:53 is a Prime Number
So is 29 - the date on which Syedna Qutbuddin [Saani] tus was born in Rabi Akhar
He celebrates the 77th milad in the year he becomes Dail Mutlaq.
77 minus 53 is
24
53 minus 29 is
24
He is the 21st Dai after Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed. 53-32 =21
Arithmetic modulus (The simplest example of which is the Hour clock in which time is a modulo 12.. so 15:00 hours is 3 pm)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modulus_arithmetic
He becomes Da'i 381 years after Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed became Dai'l mutlaq.
381 mod 21 is
3.
1646 mod 53 is
3. 1646 is the Gregorian year Syedna Qutbuddin shaheed ra becomes Dai.
The
3rd month of Hijri Calendar is Rabi Awwal, the month in which Syedna Qutbuddin Saani tus became dai.
381 mod 32 is
29.
32 is the # of Dai's going back to Syedna Qutbuddin shaheed ra and
29 is the date of Syedna Qutbuddin Saani tus Milaad
786 mod 381 is
24 - See above for
24 significance.
381 mod 53 is 10 - And the significance of 10 (Moharram) needs no explanation.
1054 mod 77 is 53
Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA became Dai Mutlaq in the year 1054 H
It has been 379 years to shahadat of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA.
379 mod 32 is
27
1435 mod 32 is
27
1435 mod 128 is
27 (Adad of Arabic Word Husain is 128, mumineen do tasbeeh of Imam Husain as some may know 128 times)
The day of Shahadat of Syedna Qutbuddin Shaheed RA is
27 of Jumadil Ukhra (this month)
There are some more such highlights that one continues to observe. This was just a small list of calculations i came across and i am sure there must be many more that more competent folks would be able to extract.
May Allah ta guide us all in the path of Siraat al mustaqeem. Aameen.
Re: Syedna Qutbuddin Saani TUS - Numbers
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:03 pm
by adna_mumin
@wise_guy
I put the "facts" (and numbers) in front of you. Make your conclusions.
@anajmi
You incite on this forum, neither engage nor provoke. Your role is of noise and as far as i am concerned, i safely ignore.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:09 pm
by y-kuc
true_bohra wrote:Firstly which aala qitab is mentioning him to be the Dai.
Secondly He compares the rutba of mazoon to be very close to dai and receiving of ilhaam by them but its Syedna RA himself who clarified that mazooon and mukasir works under the orders of dai and no ilhaams are recd by them.
Third and the most important thing, in Dawoodi bohra doctrines, a dai is considered to be 'kal masoom' or infalliable. I know that reformist will again debate on this but its about doctrine of belief. So KQ should also be kal maasoom whereas Syedna RA himself stated that bhai se galti thai che. What do you have to say about this.
Dear true_bohra
From what I know no aala kitab mentiones anyone to be a dai till after that person becomes a Dai. Then the kitabs written later might have their mention.
For your second point where you say that he compares the rutba of mazoon to be very close to dai , I am sure being a True Bohra you would know that During Satar there are 21 hudoods of Imam of which the last 3 are Dai, Mazoon and Mukasir, of which Dai and Mazoon are both Mutlaq. Do you understand the meaning of Mutlaq? If you do then this should clear your doubt on closeness of rutba. Being Mutlaq a Mazoon is not required to take raza in majority matters of dawat from dai like how an amil or anyone else has to do.
For your third point you yourself are mentioning that a dai is considered to be 'kal masoom' or
like infalliable but not ''INFALLIABLE'' in totality. you seem to forget the ''KAL'' that you have so clearly stated. kal here is used as a ''tashbeeh''!!
Please do correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:43 pm
by true_bohra
I very well know the meaning of mutlaq but you are mentioning that there are 21 hudood but during period of satr absolute power lies with Dai. Its because of this the misaq text mentions that dai ane ehna zair e dast mazoon ane mukasir. The dai and mazoon are never in parallel positions. Mazoon is always a subordinate and has to take raza of his Maula.
Now the concept of kal masoom is highly misunderstood. Imam is always masoom but a dai is referred as kal masoom just because his position should not be matched with that of Imam. Imam is Imam and his position is unmatches that is why during satr the maqaam of dai is termed as kal masoon but a person who receiced the ilhaam directly has to be thoroughly pious and infalliable.
Now correct me if I am wrong...
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 2:53 pm
by Fatema MN
y-kuc wrote:true_bohra wrote:Firstly which aala qitab is mentioning him to be the Dai.
Secondly He compares the rutba of mazoon to be very close to dai and receiving of ilhaam by them but its Syedna RA himself who clarified that mazooon and mukasir works under the orders of dai and no ilhaams are recd by them.
Third and the most important thing, in Dawoodi bohra doctrines, a dai is considered to be 'kal masoom' or infalliable. I know that reformist will again debate on this but its about doctrine of belief. So KQ should also be kal maasoom whereas Syedna RA himself stated that bhai se galti thai che. What do you have to say about this.
Dear true_bohra
From what I know no aala kitab mentiones anyone to be a dai till after that person becomes a Dai. Then the kitabs written later might have their mention.
For your second point where you say that he compares the rutba of mazoon to be very close to dai , I am sure being a True Bohra you would know that During Satar there are 21 hudoods of Imam of which the last 3 are Dai, Mazoon and Mukasir, of which Dai and Mazoon are both Mutlaq. Do you understand the meaning of Mutlaq? If you do then this should clear your doubt on closeness of rutba. Being Mutlaq a Mazoon is not required to take raza in majority matters of dawat from dai like how an amil or anyone else has to do.
For your third point you yourself are mentioning that a dai is considered to be 'kal masoom' or
like infalliable but not ''INFALLIABLE'' in totality. you seem to forget the ''KAL'' that you have so clearly stated. kal here is used as a ''tashbeeh''!!
Please do correct me if I am wrong anywhere.
Thank you @y-kuc for saving me the trouble of replying to @true_bohra. Just one more point I'd like to add, @t_b, don't try to twist what Burhanuddin Moula said... "Syedna RA himself stated that bhai se
galti thai che"!! it was more like "bhai ne confusion ma rakha"! Hope you didn't do it on purpose.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:02 pm
by true_bohra
I guess there is huge difference between galti and confusion.
And i m not the one who is twisting Syedna RA statement. I am stating what he said. In fact you are assuming things out of it.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:29 pm
by y-kuc
true_bohra wrote:I very well know the meaning of mutlaq but you are mentioning that there are 21 hudood but during period of satr absolute power lies with Dai. Its because of this the misaq text mentions that dai ane ehna zair e dast mazoon ane mukasir. The dai and mazoon are never in parallel positions. Mazoon is always a subordinate and has to take raza of his Maula.
You are absolutely correct. Dai and Mazoon are never in parallel positions. There wouldn't be two positions otherwise. They would render each other redundant.
You also very well know the meaning of mutlaq so no doubt you know that mutlaq means he has absolute raza just like the dai and from what i remember for a couple of things he has to take raza as courtesy while for the rest it is upto him to take or not as the situation dictates.
What point are you trying to make here? I never said mazoon is dai. Just tried to clear your doubt on the CLOSENESS of the positions.
Please give an exact reference where he says he got ilhaam when he was mazoon.
true_bohra wrote:Now the concept of kal masoom is highly misunderstood. Imam is always masoom but a dai is referred as kal masoom just because his position should not be matched with that of Imam. Imam is Imam and his position is unmatches that is why during satr the maqaam of dai is termed as kal masoon but a person who receiced the ilhaam directly has to be thoroughly pious and infalliable.
Now correct me if I am wrong...
Agreed with this point also. SKQ was Mazoon at the time when this incident took place. He could not have been masoom or infallible or any of the lofty qualities associated with Imam or Dai because he was neither!
I fail to understand again the point you are trying to make.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:32 pm
by Fatema MN
true_bohra wrote:I guess there is huge difference between galti and confusion.
And i m not the one who is twisting Syedna RA statement. I am stating what he said. In fact you are assuming things out of it.
You are stating what Moula said, incorrectly. He did NOT use the word 'galti'!!!
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:57 pm
by monginis
true_bohra wrote:@mongy
I asked for the proof and its a lame answer that whole site is manipulated. You said dawat texts are manipulated on this site, so which text are you referring. KINDLY SHARE YOUR DHARM GYAAN WITH US.
nope, I think this time I will keep you wondering, as you and your alike think other people, this time you are not "worth of it"
btw fatema ben is doing good job so far and if you cant understand her point of view, there is no point.
any ways how many worms you ate today?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9482
Re: Syedna Qutbuddin Saani TUS - Numbers
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:21 pm
by alam
adna_mumin wrote:@wise_guy
I put the "facts" (and numbers) in front of you. Make your conclusions.
@anajmi
You incite on this forum, neither engage nor provoke. Your role is of noise and as far as i am concerned, i safely ignore.
Adna_mumin -
Presenting all these numbers without a coherent story is the same as being in a statistic class with a table of numbers and formulas, where you are shown the logic of the formula and the solution, but without the context of the study, experiment or research. Next time, please present in sound bytes with an interesting story that builds to a climax.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:59 am
by true_bohra
monginis wrote:true_bohra wrote:@mongy
I asked for the proof and its a lame answer that whole site is manipulated. You said dawat texts are manipulated on this site, so which text are you referring. KINDLY SHARE YOUR DHARM GYAAN WITH US.
nope, I think this time I will keep you wondering, as you and your alike think other people, this time you are not "worth of it"
btw fatema ben is doing good job so far and if you cant understand her point of view, there is no point.
any ways how many worms you ate today?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9482
So you did not see or could not find any manipulation of Dawat text and you finally gave up
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:47 am
by monginis
true_bohra wrote:monginis wrote:
nope, I think this time I will keep you wondering, as you and your alike think other people, this time you are not "worth of it"
btw fatema ben is doing good job so far and if you cant understand her point of view, there is no point.
any ways how many worms you ate today?
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=9482
So you did not see or could not find any manipulation of Dawat text and you finally gave up
yes its a best thing now, to give up on idiots like you, I think paid agents like you deserves this
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:56 pm
by AgnosticIndian
Heard from a friend that there are many in my area who dont consider MS worthy of Dai even if they are not sure about KQ being the waris.
The court case might turn out to be the single biggest event that reforms the community that reformists have been seeking for years. If onky abdes open their eyes, ears and more importantly their minds.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:07 am
by monginis
how long such cases can take in INDIAN judiciary system?
I am guessing atleast 10 years?
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:18 am
by AgnosticIndian
monginis wrote:how long such cases can take in INDIAN judiciary system?
I am guessing atleast 10 years?
For starters a stay on use of dawat properties, funds and also the use of the term Dai Mutlaq.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:27 am
by true_bohra
monginis wrote:
yes its a best thing now, to give up on idiots like you, I think paid agents like you deserves this
Why dont you say that you could not find any manipulation because there is none. Give up in front of idiots like me and saying paid up agents deserves this is a mere excuse.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:45 am
by monginis
AgnosticIndian wrote:monginis wrote:how long such cases can take in INDIAN judiciary system?
I am guessing atleast 10 years?
For starters a stay on use of dawat properties, funds and also the use of the term Dai Mutlaq.
yes stay order will be enough for muffy as a first shock.
true_bohra wrote:monginis wrote:
yes its a best thing now, to give up on idiots like you, I think paid agents like you deserves this
Why dont you say that you could not find any manipulation because there is none. Give up in front of idiots like me and saying paid up agents deserves this is a mere excuse.
you can live with that assumption, it wont affect me or any one here.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 6:54 pm
by ghulam muhammed
AgnosticIndian wrote:For starters a stay on use of dawat properties, funds and also the use of the term Dai Mutlaq.
I don't think that the court has granted any interim stay because a stay is granted on the first hearing itself.
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:11 pm
by monginis
but there should be a stay....other wise muffy will sell every thing and run to ukrain/siberia or srilanka.
my bet is on sri lanka....place of rawans...
Re: Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)
Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2014 2:44 am
by true_bohra
@mongy
Selling of properties is not that easy when title is in dispute.
And there is no need for Syedna TUS to run anywhwere. Running is in habit of one who was hiding in USA.