Ismali Faith as per Yasmin

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Qiyam,<p>So, Rasulullah, as a Natiq, revealed baatin and zahir of Aql, which is Universal Intellect to Asas, which is Ali.<p>Also, I paraphrase your response as follows:<p>We are not equating the written revelation, the Quraan, with all of aql, just a part of it. The baatin and zaahir of aql encompasses more than the baatin and zaahir of the Quraan.<p>There is a saying attributed to Ali which goes something like this:<p>"I am Quraan al-Naatiq and this, the book of the Quraan, is al-Samit".<p>Is it correct to say that Ali was referring to himself as repository of the baatin/zaahir of Quraan only, although as Asas, he was also privy to baatin and zaahir of all Aql?<p>And what Ali said in regard to Quraan also applies to all Imams. They only know baatin and zaahir of the revealed Quran but not of all aql. That privilege is given only to asas and naatiq.<p>Nizari position is that their Imam is naatiq, asas and imam. You say only prophet was naatiq. What caused Nizaris to change?<p>The view you have suggested in line with position of Muhammad as the only receipient of the revelation. So, would it be correct to say that only a Naatiq can receive revelation?<p>When Muhammad said that he was the last of the messengers, did he also mean that he is the last of the Natiqs?<p>Thanks <p>

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Dear Hafeez,<br>Br. Nizari, Porus, and I had a discussion regarding Imamate not particularly the Natiq positions. You were the bark dog, as now, with nothing to give to the discussion but name calling. At least your consistant. I acknowledge and understand Br. Nizaris beliefs...though I disagree with them. I am not out to convert him nor vice versa, just understand each others beliefs with facts.

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Muslim First:>>Please explain "maadhan nu chhantaa " and "Dast Boosi "<br>Maadhan nu chhantaa is the sprinkling of water on your face and is either done by the Mukhi (high priest) or The Imam Himself. This is a very high-levelled, dignified ritual in our faith. It is an act of repentence and your sins are forgiven from birth to that date the ceremony is performed. However you are not supposed to repeat any of those sins that have been forgiven. I think it is similar to the Christian concept of "Born Again" or having gained salvation. <br>Dast Boosi is the opportunity of kissing the hand of the Imam. There is nothing more an Ismaili wants than to do this and the blessings of the Imam when He places His hand on the momeens shoulder.<p>Anajmi:<br>>>Ismailis say that the HI interprets the quran according to the times. <br>There is no particular ayat He will interpret. Say He will not say that in sura fateha verse 4 now will mean this. NO. He delievers His Farmans to the jamat and thats what we follow and thats what we believe that He has interpreted the quran. We believe that whatever He tells us is from the Quran and according to the present time. I am sorry if I have not been able to clarify this aspect of the farman/interpretation of quran. I mean He is the Noor of Allah and what He says is Allahs word.

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"Is it correct to say that Ali was referring to himself as repository of the baatin/zaahir of Quraan only, although as Asas, he was also privy to baatin and zaahir of all Aql?"<p>---This would be partially correct. The Asas is privy via the Natiq. I should point out something you noted before...the wahi is by the accord of Allah...and it is not to say the Imam cannot gain revealation from Him...but not an entire shariah.<p>"And what Ali said in regard to Quraan also applies to all Imams. They only know baatin and zaahir of the revealed Quran but not of all aql. That privilege is given only to asas and naatiq."<p>---See above, it applies.<p>Nizari position is that their Imam is naatiq, asas and imam. You say only prophet was naatiq. What caused Nizaris to change?<p>---It would be best if Nizari explained. Nizaris don't consider the Prophet as an Imam..thus a lower position, but Ali as the Imam.<p>The view you have suggested in line with position of Muhammad as the only receipient of the revelation. So, would it be correct to say that only a Naatiq can receive revelation?<p>---As I said above...revelation of theology (such as a doctrine of belief) is to the Natiq...but revelation of other kind can be given to the Imam as well.<p>When Muhammad said that he was the last of the messengers, did he also mean that he is the last of the Natiqs?<p>---He said he was the last nabi (messenger). There is a theory to this. One cannot be a natiq if the door of receive messages of theology is closed.<p>

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Qiyam,<p>Your explanation leaves room for some form of revelation to be received directly by the Imam. How would he receive this except from a natiq? The revelation may not be as comprehensive as that given to a natiq but this still leaves open the hole of how this is communicated to Imam, if not by a Naatiq?<p>You also wrote "One cannot be a natiq if the door of receive messages of theology is closed." I do not understand this sentence. Could there be a natiq on earth all the time? And if it is not the Imam, who could he be?

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Natiq doesnt mean prophet or messenger, it means speaker or proclaimer.<p>The Asas is superior to the Natiq. Although in Prophet Muhammad's case, him and Ali are on the same level because Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets and the Lord of the Prophets. <p>The six major Prophets were accompanied by Ali, although he was unrevealed.<p>Adam --- Seth<br>Noah --- Shem (aka: Melchizedek)<br>Abraham --- Ismail<br>Moses --- Aaron<br>Jesus --- Peter (or it may have been James the brother of Jesus)<br>Muhammmad --- Ali (the historical person)<p>The Asas/Imam is the universal intellect and the Prophet is the universal soul. That is our beliefs explained to be by our scholars and missionaries.<p>After Muhammad died, he passed his Noor to Pir Imam Hassan, and Ali passed his Noor to Imam Husayn. That is our belief as explained by our 48th Imam in a farman. <br>

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Dear Porus,<br>There is big distinction between have immediate access to the Universal Intellect and receiving revelation by will of Allah.<p>In regards to the sentence..I miss type something. Nabi means news or prophecy. Rasul means one who messenger or deliver of a risala (messenger). The Prophet said he is the last Prophet (khatumul ambiya). This automatic means there is no prophecy, no message (risala)...thus no more Rasuls as well...thus no more natiq.<p>Yes a Quranic-natiq which is the Imam az'Zaman...but he teaches the batin and zahir of the Quran and Islam...established already by the Asas (Maulana Ali) whom was established by the Natiq (the Prophet Muhammad).

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Again what I am writing is the Fatimi theology (taught by the Prophet upto the Fatimi Imams) which the Mustali Ismaili follow still.

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<br>Yasmin<p>How do you qualify to receive "maadhan nu chhantaa"?<p>Can a Aga Khani live a sinful life and ask for "maadhan nu chhantaa", receve it and thereafter become sinless<p>

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Nizari,<p>You say Asas is superior to Naatiq in the Nizari system.<p>I understand you are saying that although Muhammad and Ali are on the same level because of Muhammad's prophethood, ordinarily, Muhammad, as Natiq would have a lower rank. Muhammad's, ie Natiq's, role was to proclaim Asas or Ali as a revelation. In this scheme, what is the relationship in the Nizari system between the revealed book, the Quran and the revealed Asas, Ali?<p>Also, how did the seperate roles of the Natiq, the revealer and asas, the proclaimee (a ghastly word) become one in the Imams after Ali. I assume that all Imams are all three, Natiq,Asas and Imam. Or did this relationship get established more recently?

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The role of the Natiq is the proclaimer. He proclaims the Sharia of the religion. He represents Tanzil. Prophet Muhammad was the last Prophet, so there is no more revelation. However, he is not the last Natiq. I know that according to the old Fatimid theology, every seventh Imam would become a Natiq. Muhammad bin Ismail was Imam-un-natiq. However, these Imam-natiqs do not proclaim anything knew, they explain the true spiritual meaning of the Sharia or may abolish it altogethor.<p>After the Resurrection at Alamut, it was said that every Imam is potentially a natiq or Imam-Qaim. It all depends on the time.<p>The relation between the Quran and the Asas/Imam is that the Imam is the Quran Incarnate, therefore, he makes the essence and teachings of the Quran relevant to the present day. His word supercedes the Quran. The Quran book we have is incomplete but the Imam as the Quran Incarnate is not incomplete. <p>If the Quran is the Book, the Imam/Asas is the Pen.

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Qiyam,<p>Nizari explains that there is no further revelation after Muhammad but Natiq/Imam can explain sharia or abolish it altogether.<p>Bohra scheme, as you described it, has no Natiq but has Imam receivng some form of revelation allowing him to further expound the revelation.<p>It is not clear how a Nizari Natiq receives information allowing him to further expound the sharia.<p>Do I detect only a semantic difference between the Bohra and Nizari viewpoints, except that Bohras do not allow for abolishing the sharia?<p>Have you heard of 'every 7th Imam' being a Naatiq?<p>Nizari's view about Quran having been penned by Asas, ie Ali, appears to correspond to the Bohra view that Quran was penned by Ali.<p>There is also an apocryphal story about Ali withholding parts of the revelation from the published Quran? Is this correct, or does the withheld part refer to revelation not supposed to be in the Quraan, as we discusssed previously?

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Ali did not with hold parts of the Quran. Uthman, the compiler of the Quran of today scrapped many verses that referred to Ali. <p>Ali had written his own Quran in Kufan script. This document was referred to as the Ali manuscript. I dont know what happened to it though.<p>

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Yasmin,<p>So basically Ismaili won't know if the HI one day suddenly gets possessed by the devil and takes Ismailis for a ride, right.<p>Quran is described in the Quran as the criterion by which you can distinguish right from wrong. If you do not even look at the quran, how can you distinguish right from wrong?<p>No wonder Ismailis are turning out to be like this Beavis.<p>And I can also understand the fact about not referring to the quran since you consider the HI to be an Avataar of Vishnu. So can you tell me what place the Geeta and the Vedas and the Ramayan hold in the Ismaili scheme of things? Does an Ismaili consider them to be divine revelations? I mean you must right? since the HI is the 10th Avataar of Vishnu.

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Nizari,<p>I am confused as to why you can doubt the integrity of the Qur'an and still want to associate yourself with the Muslim religion. <p>"This is the book, and there is no doubt therein."<p>If the Qur'an was altered in any way, Allah's promise of leaving us a guide would be false, and if that is true, then the core of Islam is also false, and we are left with nothing...<p><br>On the note of Amir ulMumineen's copy of the Qur'an, my understanding is that he burned (or in some other way destroyed) his copy when Uthman released his own, so that rival copies of the Qur'an would not exist to throw doubt on the integrity of the book.

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"If the Qur'an was altered in any way, Allah's promise of leaving us a guide would be false, and if that is true, then the core of Islam is also false, and we are left with nothing..."<p>no, we are not left with nothing. That is why the Prophet left us with TWO things, the Quran AND the AHL-UL BAYT.<p>The Imam as the head of the Ahl-ul Bayt is the Quran Incarnate. He possess all the knowledge of the Quran. Therefore, if the Quran is incomplete (which i believe it to be so), we still have the Imam who is the complete Quran. I follow his guidance.<p>Anajmi,<p>"So can you tell me what place the Geeta and the Vedas and the Ramayan hold in the Ismaili scheme of things? Does an Ismaili consider them to be divine revelations? I mean you must right? since the HI is the 10th Avataar of Vishnu. "<p> - the Geeta and the Vedas etc are Divine Revelations in their ORIGINAL form. However, today, they are NOT in their original form, therefore, they cannot be considered like that. Yes the Imam is the 10th Manifestation of the Lord God Vishnu.<p>The Quran we have today is incomplete - verses are missing. Everything that is in it is Divine, its not like there are fabricated verses. <p>

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> the Prophet left us with TWO things, the Quran AND the AHL-UL BAYT.<p>so I've asked this question elsewhere as well:<p>what is the source of your faith in that which you do trust (the Ahl-e-bayt)?<p>Do you base your belief on historical and textual sources, or is it something you were born in to?<p>

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There is a popular notion among lay Bohras that while Quran is divine, it is incomplete just like Nizari says. However, I have not been able to verify Bohra scholarly view on this matter. Bohra scholars appear not to have view on this although they are not discouraging the popular notion. They also believe that complete Quran was with Ali and is now with Imam who is in seclusion.<p>So, there is remarkable agreement between Nizaris and Bohras on core issue of Imamat etc. The point of departure, apart from ritualistic aspects discussed previously, is that Bohras will have nothing to do with Vishnu or Avataars of Vishnu. That seems outside the Muslim orthodoxy.<p>A sufi master, Hazrat Inayat Khan, has synthesized Hindu and Muslim religions to create his own version of Sufism, which integrates both myths and beliefs of both religions. Nizari, have Nizaris been influenced by Inayat Khan?<p>Khairan, sources of faith for a human being are the stories, myths and attitudes inculcated during infancy. It is our desire to honor our family that binds us to and calls us to support our parents' religion. Honor, I think is a genetic trait, which has a survival value. No faith is inherently superior to any other faith.

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Yasmin,<p>Since you say that the farmans of the HI are like the quran to you, did the idea of compiling these firmans in the form of a book and calling it The New Quran ever cross the mind of any Ismaili?? If yes, then is there such a book available and where can I find it.<p>If not, why not?<p>Please explain.<p>Nizari,<p>After a year's debate you have finally accepted that HI is the 10th Avataar of Vishnu. If you tell this to the Muslims, you'll get a kick in the butt, and if you tell this to the hindus you'll get a kick in the butt.<p>There is a saying in Hindi "Dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka" Fits perfectly to an Ismaili.

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Hafeez, Gora, salim et al.<p>Whether Yasmin is an Ismaili, ex-Ismaili, Muslim First or the Devil Incarnate matters not. Why are you swallowing the bait? What anyone on this board thinks makes not the slightest difference to either the material or spiritual status of the Ismailis. If Yasmin is as advanced as she implies she is then :<br>she would not publicise it (as every true Ismaili knows - not out of fear but for reasons that an advanced murid will understand)<br>she would not usurp the authority of ITREB (again a true Ismaili will understand what I mean by this)<br>her definition of ma(h)adan na chanta would have not left out a key element (her description is that of chanta not of ma(h)adan na chanta)<p>And to all non-Ismailis I repeat - hurl as much abuse as you like. Ismailis are very charitable - they do not mind you lot venting your frustrations on them rather than doing harm to soceity at large.<p>And as for impersonations -readers of earlier threads on these boards (and particularly anajmi and MF will recognise me as ..heck I can't remember! ... did I claim to be an Ahmediyya?

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<br>Nizari Posted:-"- the Geeta and the Vedas etc are Divine Revelations in their ORIGINAL form. However, today, they are NOT in their original form, therefore, they cannot be considered like that. Yes the Imam is the 10th Manifestation of the Lord God Vishnu."<p>Still this davil will use them to prove <br>that his Aga Dev is Kali Avatar. (See his post on Ali being Kali Avatar)<p>As far as your belief that Quran is incomplete and reference to Ali being deleted. Do you forget that Hz. Ali RA wasincharge of Muslim Ummah for six years after Hz. Uthman RA. Why did he not restore Quran in version he had?<p>All history I have read Uthman RA put Ali RA in chrge of making Authentic vesion of Quran. Ali RA distroyed his copy after he was satisfied with final version of Quran and four copies of it.<p>I hope your HI comes out openly and says what you are saying so Muslim Ummah will kick his ass out of Islam. I do not think he has guts to do that. Ahmedis at least had guts to stick to and openly profess their belif in Mirzaa Gulam Amed. Comeon tell your Aga Deve to poclaim what you are saying as truth.<p><p>Nizari<p>When are you going to post your reserch on HI being Hanuman Avatar?<p><p><p>

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Gursevak,<br>The whole point here is not to pulicize the Nizari Ismaili faith but to make people aware that we are different. Lets no argue about why apples are not oranges. By the same token, Ismailis are Ismailis. Our tariqas are unique and different from the rest of them, we have what they don't and that makes us Nizari Ismailis.<br>If anyone thinks I am oversteeping my boundry, be it ITREB or any of my fellow Nizari Ismaili, I want them to defend what is of utmost importance to me. I will not sit here like a lame duck to be shot at. I have vowed to defend Ismailism with whatever knowledge I possess. I am part of the Imams army and will defend it with my life. No one, whether a muslim guised as an Ismaili or an Ismaili who does not have the guts to stand up for what he/she believes in is going to deter me from expressing and defending my faith and commitment to the Imam-e-Zamaan.<br>They may be right according to their scriptures (Muslims,Christians,Jews Hindus etc), but I know I have the best and thats what makes me a Nizari Ismaili.<br>Gone are the days when we were persecuted and had to keep our traditions very secretive. We live in a society that has freedom of worship and I dont see any reason why the secrecy has to continue. BE PROUD TO BE AN ISMAILI unless you are not one.

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Yasmin,<p>Your last post really does not stack up. A defender of the faith willing to countermand the Imam and his instituitions in order to defend him! I thought you said something to the effect that his word is your command; that you would never question him even if his command could not be "rationalised". And yet you in your zeal will over-rule his wish to have his institutions "defend" him, if such action is warranted. I am not going to indulge in futile discussions with you; I am just making these points to let you know that the Ismailis are where they are today because they cannot and will not be conned by the imposters. I do not wish to repeat what Salim etc,. have said; everything you have posted is widely available through the "missionary" work of Akber Mehrally. The said shining light of Islam knows about Mubarak Mandli as well but has only heard rumours about other mandlis as these were not commonly known when he was an Ismaili. They are now commonly known - so without resorting to "information feed" can you please name one other mandli?

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I did not expect my own to bash me here. However, Here is the list of mandlis:<br>Chadraat, Bayat-ul-Khyaal, Paach Baar Saal, Life dedication, Fidia Mandli, Noorani Mandli. Have you heard of "My Daughters". Maybe not if you are an imposter and if you need to find out about it you may want to check with your local council or jamaati mukhi. <br>Like you said "I am not going to indulge in futile discussions with you". SAME HERE.<br>If you cant take the heat on this board, I am not surprised that you are like a few who I know who are anatomically challanged!!!<br>GROW SOME B_LLS. Why do our women always have to come to your rescue.

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<br>Yasmin<p>Sorry to bother you<p>What are mandlis?<p>Can you explain all stages such as<p>:Chadraat, Bayat-ul-Khyaal, Paach Baar Saal, Life dedication, Fidia Mandli, Noorani Mandli<p>Peace<p>

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Yasmin has made her point forcefully. There is really no need for being secretive about our beliefs and rituals. In fact, being secretive breeds suspicion and hatred. Those living in the West, including Muslims, will appreciate and respect our religions more if we let them know of these practices.<p>Having said that, unless you partake of the rituals described, you are not going to be able to know the essence of a religion completely. So you are not revealing much anyway.<p>This is just like talking about parachuting as opposed to actually doing it.<p>I think that Yasmin is doing Ismailism a great service by explaining it to outsiders.

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And if you have the BALLS (sic) as you probably do in a physiological sense, why don't you challenge ITREB openly in your defence of your beliefs; why resort to newsgroups? As for being "your own" - my dear I for one can never side with someone who is hell-bent on defying our Institutions. Akber Mehrally gave very similar reasons for taking on the Imam and his representatives.<p>And as for not being able to take the heat - just look back on these boards and you will find I can take on the likes of you anytime(and leave you anatomically exhausted as well eh?)<p>Go mess with your kindred spirits as I have no desire to waste words on this topic. I am off work for a few days and would like to have a bit of fun with my old proponents on this board; you are just a minor distraction - I have already started having fun on the Bohra reform board

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Per Porus:<br>"A sufi master, Hazrat Inayat Khan, has synthesized Hindu and Muslim religions to create his own version of Sufism, which integrates both myths and beliefs of both religions. Nizari, have Nizaris been influenced by Inayat Khan?"<p>PORUS,<br>It is the other way around! Or Inayat Khan probably was influenced by Ismaili's khoja tradition of India. Just like Rumi & Ibn Arabi were influenced by the Ismaili Persian traditions!<p>There is another tradition - The Imam sahihs, started by the brother of one of the Ismaili Imam which has sythesized or fused beliefs from both Islam & hinduism but today are splinterted amongst varying claims as to its origin!<p>NIZARI,<br>The concepts of avatars are to be used in ALLEGORICAL terms only. Pls do not ignore this in your presentations. You do possess impressive knowledge.<p>The concept of avatars are unique to the indian sub-continent and its unique Satpanth tradition. <p>This belief of the avatars are not shared by the other ismaili traditions of tajiki & central asian traditions, or persian & syrian tradition or for that matter the North American tradition.<p>YASMEEN,<br>You have done a good job! I'll tell you why?<br>Because people like Musli First & his lotta carrier - anajmi has come out in attempt to make fun of the tariqa and its esoteric beliefs. That is always the best indicator.<p>I hope you were not expecting understanding from these two wahabis (MF & anjami). They are the noise-makers, the lowest of the low of Islam and the mankind! <p>Educate as many as you know inthe society about what they stand for and practise which is nothing short of anti-Humanity!<p>Qiyam,<br>No, I do not think we should allow the muslim firsts of theis board to DERAIL the discusion, specially when I can't Wait to hear you say: The sharia based on the 7th century sunnah is: ABOVE TIME & SPACE!<p>Could you pls respond:<br>posted by NIZARI 08-21-2002 06:09 PM ET (US) <br>---------------------------------------------<br>The role of the Natiq is the proclaimer. He proclaims the Sharia of the religion. He represents Tanzil. Prophet Muhammad was the last Prophet, so there is no more revelation. However, he is not the last Natiq. I know that according to the old Fatimid theology, every seventh Imam would become a Natiq. Muhammad bin Ismail was Imam-un-natiq. However, these Imam-natiqs do not proclaim anything knew, they explain the true spiritual meaning of the Sharia or may abolish it altogethor.<p>After the Resurrection at Alamut, it was said that every Imam is potentially a natiq or Imam-Qaim. It all depends on the time.<p>The relation between the Quran and the Asas/Imam is that the Imam is the Quran Incarnate, therefore, he makes the essence and teachings of the Quran relevant to the present day. His word supercedes the Quran. The Quran book we have is incomplete but the Imam as the Quran Incarnate is not incomplete. <p>If the Quran is the Book, the Imam/Asas is the Pen. <br>---<p>Khairan,<br>Are you still expressing the points from a "personal viewpoints" or are you now commenting from an organized religion?<p>There is no 'light' in the quran with the Imam e zamaan!<p><p><br>

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====SNIP<br>The whole point here is not to pulicize the Nizari Ismaili faith but to make people aware that we are different. Lets no argue about why apples are not oranges. By the same token, Ismailis are Ismailis. Our tariqas are unique and different from the rest of them, we have what they don't and that makes us Nizari Ismailis.<br>========SNIP<p>Thanks to Yasmin, we now know Ismailis are different. Perhaps now Muslim First, anajmi and others of their ilk who until now have been unaware of any differences between them and Nizari and Hafeez will start criticising Ismailis for not saying Namaz, not fasting etc. Wah Yasmin wah! With paris like you who needs the huras in heaven.<p>Greetings to you all malaich! Whilst my alter-ego is on this board I shall take up lodging as well.

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Hafeez wrote:<br>There is another tradition - The Imam sahihs, started by the brother of one of the Ismaili Imam which has sythesized or fused beliefs from both Islam & hinduism but today are splinterted amongst varying claims as to its origin!<p>Do you mean the Imam Shahihs? If so where did you get the info from? All available material on this sect suggests that this sect was a splinter group originally believed to have been formed by Sayyed Imam Shah, although later research suggests the likelihood that it was founded by Sayyed Imam Shah's son Nar Muhammed<p>