State your belief

[stranger]

you should ask that to the hidden imam, since it is he who is hiding, when he plans to end this confusion and reveal himself, esp. when the 51st dai had openly admitted in court under oath that the entire concept of a hidden imam is a myth and belief system only.

AZ,
Do you have any proof on the above claim ?

[Muslim First]

;Stranger
AZ: Do you have any proof on the above claim ?

Here we go again.

[Adam]

@ PORUS
You have made it very clear that you are NOT a DB, rather a kind of interested researcher in this subjects. I have accepted and respected your views, and even though I would like you to refrain from making comments against the DB faith, I cannot. But again, you are out of the DB circle, and I am thankful that you have clarified that fact.

My only problem is with those who claim to be DB s, but in return insult its beliefs and values.

Your last paragraph claiming that a "Dawoodi Bohra" is only one who is born into the community, without believing in it : According to me, is WRONG.
I have mentioned it many times that "Dawoodi Bohra" is not a tradition or a culture ALONE, BUT, it is firstly a strong belief with traditional and customary values.
This is my opinion. (Since you aren't a DB, and since I believe that I am, I hope you accept that from someone coming from INSIDE the DB Faith, not from someone observing it from outside).

Your quote addressed to me :

Frankly, your stand on this matter is the only impediment to the discussion. You want to know what others believe to tailor your inputs and, in any case, you will not divulge anything of what makes you a ‘true believer’ unless others share your faith in the Dai. If Prophet had similar attitude, he would not have imparted the Quran to non-believers and Islam would not have seen much progress. As Humsafar pointed it out to you, please state your positions without being concerned with what others believe.

That is NOT my stand.
All I needed to know was WHO the person I was addressing was. I honestly DO NOT know who he/she is. I don't care whether he/she was a Muslim or not, believer or not. But I really didn't KNOW who I was conversing with.
Going along with your example, the Prophet Mohammed SAW imparted knowledge of the Quran to non believers. Even when he would have conversed with them, he knew what their religious background was. Example, if a Christian came to him, the Prophet SAW would have known from before whether he was a Christian or a Jew, or someone would have introduced that guest. The Prophet would have preached Islam in a way the Christian man understood, by quoting from his own scriptures etc. I'm pretty sure/make a safe guess that his answers to a Christian and a Jew or an Idol Worshiper would have been different in style but the conclusion would have been the same = Islam.
Don't you agree? (If you don't, then i'd lay this whole "State your belief" down, and wont continue. As we have major differences on how to converse)

If you do agree, then that is exactly what I set out to do. Many including HUMSAFAR (and others) have dodged the question of their belief, and make it very difficult to understand whether they are of Sunni or Shia belief. Taiyibi or Agha Khani belief. Etc etc.
So, from my point of view, I have no idea whom i'm speaking to.
And find it difficult discussing DB matters when there are the nonsensical comments from Wahabis on this forum who have an EXTREMELY distant connection to DB belief.

I hope i've made myself clear.

@ Al Zulfiqar

the quotes in red are adam's. let us examine how ludicrous they are...

You made a very good observation, but you very easily and deliberately forgot to quote MY last line.

I am at fault for sometimes agreeing to continue an argument, because that's really not what I came here to do.

Where I accepted my mistake for continuing arguments, sometimes out of curiosity, or avoiding being coined a coward for starting and not finishing or continuing. But truthfully, I don't want to, and I genuinely am not to interested to.

@ Al Zulfiqar

you should ask that to the hidden imam, since it is he who is hiding, when he plans to end this confusion and reveal himself, esp. when the 51st dai had openly admitted in court under oath that the entire concept of a hidden imam is a myth and belief system only.

Firstly, the question I posed earlier :

And my only simple question to FEAR ALLAH is :
FEAR ALLAH
I follow the DB faith of my ancestors, I follow the original DB faith of every Dai who had qualities of the Prophet, Moulana Ali and Ahlal-bait. Good example is Qutbuddin Shaheed and many more Dais before and after him too. I follow the DB faith which has been there for 90% of the time (1000years – 100years = 900years).

IF he "follows the original DB faith", he would understand that DB faith (after Satr) believed in the Dai Muthlaq of the time. One after the other with continuity without a break. The most important tenet of Dawoodi Bohra faith was the need for a Leader & authority at all times. This is the Islamic/Shia/Fatimi/Dawoodi Bohra faith.

Today he doesn't have a Dai to believe in.

So either the Dais of the past (whom he followed) were wrong, or FEAR ALLAH has made a mistake somewhere. (I am of the opinion of the later).

.........was directed towards FEAR ALLAH (which he still hasn't answered). So YOU don't have to worry about it. Speak when spoken to

Secondly, you are WRONG. Rather, Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA proved the concept of the Imam by stating the Ayat in Surah Yaseen
و كل شئي احصيناه في امام مبين

Again, the question wasn't directed to you, don't fret it. I was just clarifying your deliberate "mistake". [/color]

[Muslim First]

Secondly, you are WRONG. Rather, Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA proved the concept of the Imam by stating the Ayat in Surah Yaseen

و كل شئي احصيناه في امام مبين

اِنَّا نَحۡنُ نُحۡىِ الۡمَوۡتٰى وَنَكۡتُبُ مَا قَدَّمُوۡا وَاٰثَارَهُمۡؕ وَكُلَّ شَىۡءٍ اَحۡصَيۡنٰهُ فِىۡۤ اِمَامٍ مُّبِيۡنٍ‏ ﴿36:12﴾

(36:12) We shall surely raise the dead to life and We record what they did and the traces of their deeds that they have left behind. We have encompassed that in a Clear Book.

[Shakir 36:12] Surely We give life to the dead, and We write down what they have sent before and their footprints, and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.

[Al Zulfiqar]

"So YOU don't have to worry about it. Speak when spoken to"

adam, so now you are emulating the arrogant and dictatorial behaviour of your masters? are you going to control who replies to you and who doesnt? from 2 of my above posts you chose to ignore the one which punctured your "TRUE DAWOODI BOHRA BELIEFS" balloon, and concentrated only on the one where you thought you could once again easily promote your falsehoods.

you keep repeating that you do not really care to reply and shouldnt be engaging in an argument, but then you keep coming back everytime to get beaten up again, when are you going to quit? when every last bone in your frail, emaciated body is completely broken? with every new reply you post here you keep shoving your own foot more and more into your mouth. is it that you enjoy deriving a reverse sado-masochistic pleasure in the pain inflicted on you and being proven an utter fool??

[Adam]

Sure.

I'll just wait for my replies if you don't mind. Then i'll decide whether to hang around.
Have a good day

[porus]

Adam,

You, like me, are entitled to your opinions. I have clarified my views on this forum for many years and I have acknowledged that they differ from those Bohras, both orthodox and progressive. Your views may be closer to those who are currently in authority in Daawat but I, along with the rest of Bohras and non-Bohras who participate on this forum will continue to question, comment and discuss them. And I sincerely wish that you continue to offer your views even if others consider them disagreeable.

I have stated that I will enquire on Bohra ‘religious’ practices by relating them to the Quran, which is the only authentic source of religious beliefs and practices for Muslims, Bohras included. And because Allah has elevated Panjatan to the status of ‘infallibility’, I consider their views to be the most authentic after the Quran.

A Bohra can, most readily, be identified, by being seen in cultural and religious context. If he performs maatam after fard, he is a Bohra. If he wears topi, saya, kurta when participating in a religious function, he is a Bohra. But you will be hard put to identify what the beliefs of these people really are. You cannot force belief and faith on people. As the Quran states, “لا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ”.

However, that is not the only way you can identify a Bohra. In the United States, a typical young Bohra may be seen in this type of religious and cultural context. But most often, they are seen in social context where they are introduced as children of Bohras. That is their only identification of being Bohras. If you dig deeper, they may me able to recite a sura or two or an excerpt from ‘ya sayyid as-shuhada’ but without any understanding. They may know about Sayedna but only as a feature of their religious context. They are Bohras. That is why the only criterion for anyone being a Bohra is to have been born to Bohra parents, Their observance of religion, culture or tradition is irrelevant.

If you insist that a DB is only entitled to be called as such if he believes and thinks like you then I think that you are in for a rude awakening.

[Humsafar]

Adam, What a cop-out you have turned out to be, no better than the other "defenders" of the faith who have came to this Forum with great swagger and then disappeared unceremoniously.

So, from my point of view, I have no idea whom i'm speaking to.

But we have no doubt who we're speaking to: A believer in the cult of the Dai.

Porus, your otherwise excellent (last two) posts were marred by an almost reverential tone for a guy who defends putting up Dai's pictures with this:

PICTURES : Quran doesn't state that you can't put up pictures.
PICTURES : No DB text has a problem with it.

How can anyone have any credibility after uttering these asinine words?

[anajmi]

Many including HUMSAFAR (and others) have dodged the question of their belief,

Adam,

I have answered this question a long time back. But at that time, you said since I was not of DB faith there was no point in conversing with me. You cannot have it both ways. Humsafar gave you a couple of scenarios as well, but your responses were in line with what has been heard before on this forum from other abdes. Anyway, I don't think the answers that you have provided are anything compared to what the prophet (saw) provided and converted people to Islam. And I don't think we are going to hear any "answers" from you. That is because, your answers are not designed to tell people how you are better than them. Your answers are simply designed to save face and tell people why you are not as bad as people think you are.

[fearAllah]

No problem. So which till which Dai do you graciously approve off? 50? 49? 48?
Then, what happens after that, for your sake?

And what exactly did the Dais preach? Did they believe in continuation of a Dawat and Duat? (According to true DB belief they did, but you don't seem to have a Dai to lead you.)

Pheeewwwwww.....

Anyways u really want to know? Okay here it is.....

Inky pinky ponky.....father had a donkey.....donkey died, father cried....inky pinky ponky...hey look its 48 oh no wait i think i made a mistake i think it was 50? Oh wait maybe its.....ahhh forget it!! Do I really care??? I follow all the Imams and thats the most important thing...Dai has nothing to do with my worship to Allah, Dai is just a normal person like me but only specially appointed by Imam for the sole purpose of inviting non-muslim to the faith thats all!

What leader??? Man you are so brainwashed, leader for what? taking u to jannat?? Man i dont understand this concept of having a leader. You are in the same boat as Ismailis who blindly follow Aga Khan as their leader regardless what he does. Dont worry your great grandchildren will suffer the same fate

The Quran, the Hadiths of Prophets , Moulana Ali's Nahj-Balagha , Books of Zainul abedin, Jafar Sadik and examples of other Imams are enough for me thankyou.

And at least, i am not interested in having a hindu leader like Bhagwan Burhannudin.

Jay Bajrangbali!

[porus]

Porus, your otherwise excellent (last two) posts were marred by an almost reverential tone for a guy who defends putting up Dai's pictures......

Well. I give Adam his due. He represents a model of how a devotee of Sayedna thinks and it is important that people here understand that point of view. Also, Adam, unlike some abdes here, has demonstrated courtesy in his participation and, so far, has not been putt off by all the negativity he experiences on this forum. I would like him to continue defending his position. I am sure he knows that he will be attacked.

Let me go out on a limb here and state that the ‘belief’ in Dai is not an article of the DB faith.

Let me dramatize this statement in a sketch which will ring 'true' to most people.

"Let us say that you live in the time of Imam Muizz and are approached by his Dai to convince you to accept the authority of the Imam. You are convinced and immediately approach the Imam and offer him your allegiance.

The Dai who approached you and convinced you now becomes irrelevant and you may thank him for informing you about the Imam but do not go about revering him or falling to his feet. In time, you may even forget about him. Your faith does not require you to give him any religious importance."

Going back to the nomination of the first Dai al-Mutlaq, it was not as if Imam al-Tayyib decided that time had come for him to go into hiding and appointed Dai al-Mutlaq as his deputy. It so turned out that the Imam disappeared without trace and Hurrat al-Malika, not the Imam, appointed Dai al-Mutlaq to continue calling people to accept the authority of the missing Imam. In time, especially in the last 100 years, Dais have elevated themselves to stations way beyond that envisaged by Hurrat al-Malika. That is not in accordance to authentic Tayyibi faith.

[anajmi]

"Let us say that you live in the time of Imam Muizz and are approached by his Dai to convince you to accept the authority of the Imam. You are convinced and immediately approach the Imam and offer him your allegiance.

The Dai who approached you and convinced you now becomes irrelevant and you may thank him for informing you about the Imam but do not go about revering him or falling to his feet. In time, you may even forget about him. Your faith does not require you to give him any religious importance."

A beautiful example that should be extended to a similar relationship between an "Imam" and the prophet (saw). One might be inclined to argue that so should we forget the prophet (saw) too? To which the response is that obedience to the prophet (saw) is a command in the Quran.

[anajmi]

I would like to add something that I should've in my previous posts. A lot of people from the followers of the Sunnah prefer to remember the names of their teachers so that they can trace them directly to the prophet (saw) and those who learned from him, wherever applicable, because of the command in the Quran. However, the teacher never becomes the object of worship as is the case with the bohras.

[seeker110]

Br.Adam, seems like you have become well adjusted to this sick cult.You probably dont care how unhealthy our community has become.Your conclusion to this complex problem is clear, simple and wrong.

[ghulam muhammed]

It so turned out that the Imam disappeared without trace and Hurrat al-Malika, not the Imam, appointed Dai al-Mutlaq to continue calling people to accept the authority of the missing Imam.

This is an extremely important point which needs to be clarified by the abdes because if the above is true then the whole logic of the dai being appointed by the Imam falls flat on the bohra's face and so does the concept of daiism.

[Muslim First]

Adam

I have opened new thread so you can tell us how Qur'an 36:12 proves concept of Imamat as taught to you by Marhum Sydna.

Here is link to new thread
Q 36:12 is Proof of Imamat - Taher Saifuddin
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 298#p86298

[profastian]

Adam,



Let me go out on a limb here and state that the ‘belief’ in Dai is not an article of the DB faith. The position of Dai al-Mutlaq was created by a Yemeni ruler, Hurrat al-Malika, in response to the disappearance of Imam al-Tayyib. The position was supposed to be administrative only. The Dai is the head of Daawat, whose sole function is to invite Muslims to accept Imam as the sole authority within Islam. This clearly is no longer the function of Daawat. We should ponder over the original meanings of the words Dai and Daawat.

Again, you display your lack of knowledge of the bohra faith. I urge all the true adbes who read this guys' posts, not to believe a word he has to say about the bohra doctrine. Belief in the DAI is certainly an article of the Bohra faith, and the position of the Dai was certainly not created by Hurrat-ul-Malika. Who headed the Dawat in the absence of the mastureen? The position of the Dai predates the prophet. And where in any of the Bohra literature is it written that the post of DAI mutlaq is supposed to be administrative?

[anajmi]

The position of the Dai predates the prophet.

HO HO HO HO HO. And I am sure you will be able to produce a verse from the Quran to establish this eh? What the heck do they give you guys to drink during those maatam festivals?

[anajmi]

I apologize to profastian. Idol worship in corrupted forms of Islam predates the prophet (saw). For eg. There were believers in Allah even before the prophet (saw). Infact the father of the prophet (saw) was named -Abdullah. However, they had associated idols (laat, manaat, uzza) with Allah and had become mushriks. This is the same as with the DBs of today. They have raised the level of the Dai to the level of laat, manaat and uzza. So profastian is right that the position of Dai predates the prophet (saw) and was at that time occupied by laat, manaat and uzza.

[porus]

..There were believers in Allah even before the prophet (saw). Infact the father of the prophet (saw) was named -Abdullah. However, they had associated idols (laat, manaat, uzza) with Allah and had become mushriks.

Look at this from a devoted abde's point of view. Bohra revisionist mythological history which took shape among the scholars of the Fatimid period is considered by abdes to be the 'Truth'. From that angle, Abdullah and Abu Talib were not mushriks at all but Muslims, who were the guardians of true faith of Islam until its final revelation by Muhammad. It is considered that Islam was always around since the day Adam was created and that there have always been Dais who were inviting people to true faith of Islam. In fact the word Dai does appear in the Quran and just like the word Imam, it may be, and indeed is, interpreted by Bohras to mean all Dais, including the present Dai al-Mutlaq.

The title Dai al-Mutlaq does not appear in the Quran. It was coined, most probably, by Hurrat al-Malika as the position of 'primus inter pares' among the Dais that were indeed earlier sent by Imams to spread their mission. In time, the lesser Dais and the Dais that ranked above Dai al-Mutlaq disappeared. And the belief in the Dai al-Mutlaq as the core pillar of DB faith, incorrectly I may add, took shape.

However, core beliefs of Muslims are in the Quran and Muslims are asked to listen to Dais who according to Quran are the Prophets and Messengers sent by Allah.

[anajmi]

There is a difference between "the post" of a Dai and Dai. A true Dai of Allah doesn't need a post before he can give Dawat. In that sense, after the prophet (saw) the job of dawat fell on the shoulders of every muslim. The prophet (saw) has said - convey my message even if it is just one verse. And this conveyor is the Dai. Syedna Burhanuddin is not a Dai in the truest sense of the word as intended in the Quran. He is no more a Dai of Allah than Rajneesh was (but without all the sex).

[Humsafar]

Porus, We do try to look at from the abdes' point of view but every time it's found wanting. Have to agree with anajmi though. Calling pre-Islamic prophets Dais is only a matter of semantics. Every dai was a prophet and every prophet was a dai so far as their role was to summon people to faith. Trust the mafia clergy and its abdes to play fast and loose with nomenclature and declare that the Dai predates the prophet. And the irony is that the current Dai does not even pretend to play the role of the classical, pre-prophet Dai whose legacy he claims to inherit.

[porus]

It is considered that Islam was always around since the day Adam was created and that there have always been Dais who were inviting people to true faith of Islam.

There is a mythological tradition among Ismailies which describes daawat before the fall of Adam which existed both in the real world and on cosmic plane, the so-called Alam-e-Ibdaa.

In Alam-e-ibda, Adam is called Adam Ruhani and his fall is due to an attempt to eat from the forbidden tree in paradise which represented Aql Awwal. His fall was due his desire to attaining equality with Aql awwal.

In the real world, the 'the tree in paradise' represented 'ilm haqiqi', the Truth. Adam's eating from the tree means that he, Adam, divulged ilm to Iblis who tricked Adam into believing that he was an adept qualified to learn it. Adam was punished by making him lose the ilm which Allah had taught him until he repented and was made a Prophet. Iblis, however, used the ilm to create fitnat among progeny of Adam and will continue that work till eternity.

The question is why was Iblis in this 'paradise' with Adam when he was banished? The reason is that Iblis was actually a Dai of some distinction but his knowledge was lost due to his disobedience and rebellion. That is the real meaning of banishment. However he used his arsenal of tricks to learn some of the ilm back from Adam.

So, in the haqaiq drama, there is a mention of Dai before appointment of Adam as the first Prophet and this is what an abde might be referring to when he says Dai existed before the prophet.

http://www.amaana.org/ikhwan/bernard.html

[anajmi]

So the Dai that existed before the prophet (saw) was the guy who tempted Adam (as) himself??? Wow! No wonder we see traces of that Dai in this Dai. I guess now we truly know where these DB Dais descended from.

[progticide]

It is considered that Islam was always around since the day Adam was created and that there have always been Dais who were inviting people to true faith of Islam.

There is a mythological tradition among Ismailies which describes daawat before the fall of Adam which existed both in the real world and on cosmic plane, the so-called Alam-e-Ibdaa.

In Alam-e-ibda, Adam is called Adam Ruhani and his fall is due to an attempt to eat from the forbidden tree in paradise which represented Aql Awwal. His fall was due his desire to attaining equality with Aql awwal.

In the real world, the 'the tree in paradise' represented 'ilm haqiqi', the Truth. Adam's eating from the tree means that he, Adam, divulged ilm to Iblis who tricked Adam into believing that he was an adept qualified to learn it. Adam was punished by making him lose the ilm which Allah had taught him until he repented and was made a Prophet. Iblis, however, used the ilm to create fitnat among progeny of Adam and will continue that work till eternity.

Prof. Porus,
Brilliant post. Now would you care to also inform your students that this above explanation is taken from one of the works of Syedna Husain ibn Ali, a yemenite Dai coming to office much after the occultation of the 21st Imam.

But how come you are quoting the works of Dais appointed after the occultation of the 21st Imam. Didn't you say somewhere before on this forum that you don't consider any Imam after Imam Husain as infallible, let alone the Dais during the satr period.

So what are you trying to achieve by this hypocrisy?

Oh! You are trying to be a show-off by exhibiting the vast knowledge that your stupid admirers on this forum believe you possess.

Just reading some old manuscripts in your possession through family inheritence/ hosted in some western libraries and posting few threads on a forum like this and delivering a few lectures neither makes you a scholar on matters of Islam and Fatemi Dawat nor gives you any authority or right or liberty to make judgements on these matters.

BTW, how are the birthday preparations going on? Need any help.

[anajmi]

profastian,

I was looking at your long post against porus to see if you will answer the question as per your understanding but you didn't. Did I miss it? Or you don't have an answer?

[Adam]

HUMSAFAR
Whether you like it or not, credible or not. I did answer your questions how I felt right.
BUT you have dodged my SIMPLE question more than 6 times.
Call me stubborn, but dodging a simple question like that multiple times, reflects TOTAL cowardice?
WHAT IS YOUR BELIEF/SECT OF ISLAM YOU FOLLOW?
WHO IS YOUR PHYSICAL LEADER TODAY?
AS A MUSLIM, DO YOU PRAY NAMAAZ? WHO LEADS YOUR NAMAAZ? AND WHY HIM/HER?

FEAR ALLAH
After your confusing but childish answer you said :

I follow all the Imams and thats the most important thing...Dai has nothing to do with my worship to Allah, Dai is just a normal person like me but only specially appointed by Imam for the sole purpose of inviting non-muslim to the faith thats all!

You mentioned respecting Dais like Syedna Qutbuddin RA, but you say they are all (Dais) normal people, and nothing extraodinary about them. Is that correct?
ALso you said,

I follow all the Imams and thats the most important thing

You also said

I dont see that in the last two Dais because i believe they have overthrown the Imam-uz-zaman and deviating from the true DB tradition

May I ask you to clarify who you mean by "IMAMS"? Whom you follow and "that's the most important thing"? Who is this "IMAM uz Zamaan" you talk about? (You mentioned upto Imam Ali Zayn al Abedeen AS, but do you go any further?)
Again, all is just to clarify what you believe in. Thanks.

PORUS
You said

It so turned out that the Imam disappeared without trace and Hurrat al-Malika, not the Imam, appointed Dai al-Mutlaq to continue calling people to accept the authority of the missing Imam.

This is INCORRECT, according to True Dawoodi Bohra Beliefs. (Also clarified by Profastian)
If you read Dawoodi Bohra Taiyibi texts, it refutes this. The Duat were appointed by the Imam himself. Those who believe otherwise are not following the True Dawoodi Bohra sect.

Coming to another issue relating to the "OBSERVATION" thread by stranger, (which looks like it's been deleted by the Admin), where it questions why only the "Abdes" have to Defend Dawoodi Bohra faith and NOT the so called "Progs".
Here, PORUS is incorrectly giving a statement that the Imam did NOT appoint the Duat, and ONLY the "Abdes" are answering this.
Why do the "PROGS" stay silent on this? This is the foundation of their belief too!
The Progs have an issue with the recent Duats, but where did their allegiance and faith go in concern with the other Duaats?
Why these Double Standards Proggies?

ghulam muhammed & HUMSAFAR are siding by PORUS s false accusations. Are they not "Proggies", then that brings us to the question of what they actually stand for? Belief? Sect?

[Admin]

Adam,
The "observation" thread is here: http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... f=1&t=6553

[stranger]

ADMIN,

On the Forum Main Page, there is a field named as "VIEWS". Here the mentioned numbers for respective threads are distinct count or repetition is also considered ?
Suppose, the VIEWS counts reads 10 and then i viewed that thread 3 time on different instances. So will it show 11 or 13 ? my question is, it reads distinct no. of views or no. of distinct members view ?
You can reply if its fine with you otherwise feel free to ignore my question.

Thank You !

[Admin]

It will show 13. Views are calculated per view/visit.