Dawoodi Bohra Forum

aqs wrote:

incredible wrote:
sorry to burst your bubble,but this is not some thing only bohra knows,every muslim does same tasbeeh,rasulullah and panjatan have tought this tasbeeh.

Thanks Incredible

But did i claim that only Bohra knows this tasbeeh, i only talked about who thought us, You might knew it before but i and countless others came to knew it at the time of opening of Saifee Hospital, its even inscribed at the main entrance of Saifee Hospital.

no worries u are always welcome....but lemme tell u some thing not only this tasbeeh but many other tasbeeh and duaa are common with sunnis and ithna asharis,so keep in mind this is not some thing new described to us.

Muslim First wrote: We say what we call Dooru-e-Ibrahim in all prayares.

It goes like this


1DUROOD-E-IBRAHIMI

ALLAHUMMA SALLI ALA MUHAMMADIW WA ALA AALI MUHAMMADIN KAMAA SALLAITA ALA IBRAHIMA WA ALA AALI IBRAHIMA INNAKA HAMIDUM MAJID. ALLAHUMMA BAARIK ALA MUHAMMADIW WA ALA AALI MUHAMMADIN KAMAA BAARAKTA ALA IBRAHIMA WA ALA AALI IBRAHIMA INNAKA HAMIDUM MAJID.

"O Allah, let Your Blessings come upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious. Allah, bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious".

This same durood is recited by Bohras and Shia Muslims in all their prayers.

In the phrases "Aali Ibrahim" or "Aali Muhammad" meaning "Aal of Ibrahim" or "Aal of Muhammad", 'Aal' does not mean family. It means followers or the people over whom Ibrahim or Muhammad has authority.

Muslim translators mistakenly believe that the word 'Aal' is a contraction of the word 'ahl', meaning kinfolk. Actually, it is derived from 'ayl', which has a meaning 'under the authority of'.

Thus all Muslims are Aal of Muhammad, not just his family.

A person who teaches his follower to be loyal to their country, is accepting lacks of black money on daily basis form his followers by performing nikah, selling titles and jiafats and still he is MASSOOM!!!!

porus wrote:
Muslim translators mistakenly believe that the word 'Aal' is a contraction of the word 'ahl', meaning kinfolk. Actually, it is derived from 'ayl', which has a meaning 'under the authority of'.

Thus all Muslims are Aal of Muhammad, not just his family.

Yeah yeah we know you know Arabic...
Stop acting like a child and showing off.

If Dai had integrity.His belief would direct his actions.

Profastian I did not understand your sarcasm. Porus not only knows arabic but he understands it too unlike most others.
You will accept that on this board he is most knowledgable about our religion, and his study in religion and even generally exceeds any boundaries.

accountability wrote: and his study in religion and even generally exceeds any boundaries.

Brother accountability,

I am flattered but that cannot be true of anybody. Thank you though.

No flattering Porus bhai, you are really knowledgable.

accountability wrote:Salam Brother Aqs
In Daim ul Islam or tawil ud daim, nowhere it is said that imams were infallible or masoom. In daur us satr he is equivilent of imam's status. Even there are no refrences regarding functionality of dai or its institution. so if imams were not infallible or masoom, how could dai be. If you have refrences please quote, may be i missed it.

W Salaam Br. Accountability

yes in both the above books its not mentioned because they dont deal with the topic. Please go through Kitabul Himma by Syedna Qazi Noman and Risalatul Tambiul Gafeleen by Syedna Hatim(aq) both are general books taught in sabaks if you get raza. these both books deal with the status of a Imam and what are the etiquettes and protocols to be followed when in the presence of a Imam. The status it elevates a Imam to can only be reserved for a Masoom and no one else.

accountability wrote:what is infallibility or innocence for a human being. if it means that person is free from human errors, that is impossible, dont you think that he would have forgotten where did he put his glass, or where is his tasbeeh or forgot the name of person he just met, if that is so then no one is masoom or infallible. Porus bhai can enlighten us more about infallibiltiy or innocence. Even in quran i did not find that Allah has said so and so is error free. Human is to err.

this infallibility which we ascribe to a Imam or a dai does not make them free from normal Human errors but rather we talk about their decisions and their sinlessness, whatever decisions they take they have a greater cause behind them though not visible at the same moment but with time it comes to light that whatever Haq na saheb did was for the betterment of Deen and humanity at large.

accountability wrote:All our imams and dais were and are human with total human configuration, so why should and would we expect them to be flawless, what good would it do to religion by declaring infallibility or innocence. Or in other words why would religion need these human to be error free.

if i recall it correctly then once Porus had discussed on one of thread that there cant be any flaw in Quran or whatever Prophet(saw) prescribed otherwise if Prophet(saw) can commit mistake at some place then he can do on other occasions also so he is masoom and flawless this gives Islam its perfectness. I agree to what Porus said
Now when i say Prophet(saw) was flawless so is his progeny and a Dai in their seclusion, this give authenticity to their decisions.

porus wrote:

accountability wrote: and his study in religion and even generally exceeds any boundaries.

Brother accountability,

I am flattered but that cannot be true of anybody. Thank you though.

What is going on here...
@accountability
How much are you getting paid. Or you must be stoned.calling a jahil as an aalim whose ilm generally exceeds any boundaries.

salam Brother Aqs: Let me say it is a real pleasure discussing with you. it is an educated discussion.

Well Sir, you just reitreted my points. Daim ul islam and tawil ud daim is our fiqah books. Syenda Hatim was not a faqih, as such his assertions should not be taken as per fiqah. I have not read those books, but if syedna hatim had quoted refrences from authentic faqih books regarding infallibility or innocence of imams and Dai, it might hold some ground even though his books can only be taken as an author's work who is writing history.
As you said, that Dai is not in direct contact with secluded imam, his only comminucation is through Ilham, but ilham is only from Allah, as he is the creator of dreams, none else can create dreams, how come a secluded imam get in contact with dai through dreams. Ilham has no basis in sharia or I did not see any refrence to ilham in Quran. It is a kind of delusory term which could be interpreted as wished.
You in your above post do concur that dai or imam can make human mistakes. You said, "if i recall it correctly then once Porus had discussed on one of thread that there cant be any flaw in Quran or whatever Prophet(saw) prescribed otherwise if Prophet(saw) can commit mistake at some place then he can do on other occasions also so he is masoom and flawless this gives Islam its perfectness. I agree to what Porus said

Well Quran understandably cannot have flaws, it is understandable that prophet cannot commit mistake precribing Allah's wahi, But I have read in numerous hadith book that prophet prays for istighfar. Istighfar is asking forgivness from Allah for advertant or inadvertant mistakes.
We may leave aside Quran and Prophet, because of their unique status, but then your analogy that becuause Quran and prophet were ifallible then prophet's off springs should also be the same. There are no quranic or sunnah refrences about that. Prophet dis not survived by any male off springs, but he had numerous daughters, Inculding Maulatena Fatima. But Prophet in his life never declared that my daughter or her off springs will be infallible or will have an equivelent status as nabi.
I have read in Nahjul balagha that Ali has sought forgiveness from Allah, If he was infallible or innocent then he would not seek Allah's forgiveness. Because he would knowing his status. If Ali did not consider him infallible or innocent then how could his off springs claim such, though they did not, you can not provide one refrence from Ali zainul abidin to imam Jaffer sadiq or from from abdullah al mahdi to mansoor that tehy claimed that they are ifllible or masoom..
Even Prior dais did not claim such. Again my point, what is the need for such claim.

accountability wrote:salam Brother Aqs: Let me say it is a real pleasure discussing with you. it is an educated discussion.

Walekum Afzalus Salaam

Br. Pleasure is mutual

accountability wrote:Well Sir, you just reitreted my points. Daim ul islam and tawil ud daim is our fiqah books. Syenda Hatim was not a faqih, as such his assertions should not be taken as per fiqah. I have not read those books, but if syedna hatim had quoted refrences from authentic faqih books regarding infallibility or innocence of imams and Dai, it might hold some ground even though his books can only be taken as an author's work who is writing history.

I have mentioned this on another thread that Syedna Qazi Noman is not the only source of our fiqah, and why cant Syedna Hatim(aq) be a faqih? the books i talked about they are not mere history books but as told before talk about etiquette and manners or protocol to be followed when in presence of Imam or a king for instance, both the books extensively use examples of past but are not history books per say as Shehrul Akhbar or other books.

accountability wrote:As you said, that Dai is not in direct contact with secluded imam, his only comminucation is through Ilham, but ilham is only from Allah, as he is the creator of dreams, none else can create dreams, how come a secluded imam get in contact with dai through dreams. Ilham has no basis in sharia or I did not see any refrence to ilham in Quran. It is a kind of delusory term which could be interpreted as wished.

their are few factual errors in above para.
Ilham is not a form of dream but in layman's language is a more strong form of intuition and lesser cousin of wahi.
Now we are talking about Sharia in the light of dawoodi bohra's not some Salafi version so Ilahm is very much a part of deen. A dai though not in contact with Imam directly gets his instructions as and when needed through Ilham, their might not be any bayaan in zahiri meaning of Quran but the right person can surely guide you to the relevant Ayat.

accountability wrote:Well Quran understandably cannot have flaws, it is understandable that prophet cannot commit mistake precribing Allah's wahi, But I have read in numerous hadith book that prophet prays for istighfar. Istighfar is asking forgivness from Allah for advertant or inadvertant mistakes.
We may leave aside Quran and Prophet, because of their unique status, but then your analogy that becuause Quran and prophet were ifallible then prophet's off springs should also be the same. There are no quranic or sunnah refrences about that. Prophet dis not survived by any male off springs, but he had numerous daughters, Inculding Maulatena Fatima. But Prophet in his life never declared that my daughter or her off springs will be infallible or will have an equivelent status as nabi.

Good that you brought the point of istighfar of Prophet(saw) which i wanted to but i knew people will ask for neutral proofs which i dont think exist.
Yes Prophet(saw) asked for istighfar but i cant comment on this any more as it delves more into tawil, but as you have read taawil ud daim and other taawil books you must be privy to the knowledge why he did that, and definitely still Prophet(saw) remains masoom.
on different occasions Prophet(saw) told about the status of panjatan, few of which are

Man Kunto Moulao Fahada Aliun Moula
Hassan O Hussain Imama Haqqin, Qama aw qada
Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain leader of shababul jannat
Moulatano Fatema is leader of Nisal Alamin and will be the first woman to enter jannat

Now these status cant be granted to just any one and shows the elevation of Panjatan

accountability wrote:I have read in Nahjul balagha that Ali has sought forgiveness from Allah, If he was infallible or innocent then he would not seek Allah's forgiveness. Because he would knowing his status. If Ali did not consider him infallible or innocent then how could his off springs claim such, though they did not, you can not provide one refrence from Ali zainul abidin to imam Jaffer sadiq or from from abdullah al mahdi to mansoor that tehy claimed that they are ifllible or masoom..
Even Prior dais did not claim such. Again my point, what is the need for such claim.

I have not come across any such reference of Moula Ali asking for forgiveness.

the point for these claims is simple that it give authenticity to decisions made by Haq na saheb

porus wrote:
In the phrases "Aali Ibrahim" or "Aali Muhammad" meaning "Aal of Ibrahim" or "Aal of Muhammad", 'Aal' does not mean family. It means followers or the people over whom Ibrahim or Muhammad has authority.

Muslim translators mistakenly believe that the word 'Aal' is a contraction of the word 'ahl', meaning kinfolk. Actually, it is derived from 'ayl', which has a meaning 'under the authority of'.

Thus all Muslims are Aal of Muhammad, not just his family.

I wanted to point out that Da'aimul Islam rejects the argument I put forward above. Sayedna Qadi Numan has produced powerful arguments from Imam Jafar al-Sadiq's tafseer of various ayats of the Quran to indicate that 'Aal of Muhammad' refers only to Prophet's Ahlul bayt. Imam Jafar al-Sadiq extends the term Ahlul bayt to include all Imams and their families. This is in line with the beliefs of all the Shia (Quran mentions only three people by name who were Imams. They were Nabis Ibrahim, Yaqub and Ishaq.)

What is also interesting is that Imam Jafar al-Sadiq also rejects the notion that the term "Muhammad's Ummat" includes all the followers of Muhammad, that is all the Muslims. I understand that Imam Jafar uses the term Ummat as a synonym for Aal. Hence both Ummat and Aal, according to him, are Prophet's Ahlul bayt only and does not include the rest of the Muslims.

aqs wrote: Please go through Kitabul Himma by Syedna Qazi Noman and Risalatul Tambiul Gafeleen by Syedna Hatim(aq) both are general books taught in sabaks if you get raza. these both books deal with the status of a Imam and what are the etiquettes and protocols to be followed when in the presence of a Imam. The status it elevates a Imam to can only be reserved for a Masoom and no one else.

Risalat al-Tanbihu al-Ghafileen (The Message of Caution for the Neglectful)

Kitab al-himma(t) fi adab atba' al-aimmat (The book of highest endeavor in manners for the followers of Imams)

These two books do not explicitly endorse infallibility of Imams. However, al-himma makes for shocking reading. Sayedna Qadi Numan has almost deified Imams. He compares Imams to Prophet and claims that Imams too are sent as 'Mercy and Bounty to Mankind' just as the Prophet was. He describes in detail the protocol to be observed in meeting the Imam and while in the presence of Imam. Followers of Imam are required to prostrate in front of the Imam and kiss the ground before him. Also, in his presence, they should stand as if in prayer. He does use Quran to support his views but I find them hollow.

While Imam is the linchpin of the Bohra religion, deifying him and offering sujood to him, in my opinion, violates the Quran. Strangely, Sayedna Qadi Numan does not mention ayat 41:37 at all.

While Qadi Numan claims that he is not elevating Imams to the station of worldly rulers, that is exactly what he appears to be doing.

Older folks among you may remember the following announcement in the movie Mughal-e-azam. It is made just before Anarkali's dance "jab pyar kiya to darna kya".

"sajde mein nigah rahe
tamaam hosho-firaq pesh-e-baadshah rahe
zill-e-ilahi, shah-en-shah, alam-panah
Jalaluddin Muhammad Akbar jalwa faroz hote hai.n"

I can understand the secrecy with which these books are guarded. They would not go down well with Muslims, especially in regard to the status of the Imams.

any thing going against quraan must be nullified...no wonder u cant get any such books on bookstalls.

I will open a thread on shia website asking them if they really belive in prostrating infront of Imam.

Brother Aqs

The books you mentioned do not neccessarily authenticate infalibility of imams and dai.

Thankyou Porus Saheb for valued input as always.

Aqs said, "the point for these claims is simple, to authenticate the decision made by Haq na Saheb."

That was exactly what I had thought, but I wanted you to say. This whole excercise to prove the infalibility of Dai was to make sure that What ever decisions regarding whatever may not be challanged. Though I find it difficult to understand.
you introduced one more doctrinal phrase,"Haq na Saheb". Which again will bear no refrence from whatever source. You might come accross refrences for three seperate words, you will find refrence for Haq many a places, then you will find a refrence for "na" or "saheb". Add them together it becomes "Haq na Saheb". Daimul Islam and tawil ud daim does not have this.
Dont you think there is an effort going on to prove that no body questions decisions made by present administration. But attaching infalibily or ultimate innocence kills the very purpose of accountability, which is basic to any faith or religion. why would some one do good, if there is no reward and why would not some one commit sin if there is no punishment. Allah being the ultimate Judge would not defy his own command.

In quran it is dealt at length, Quran negates infalibity or innocence.

"Innallaha ya mooru bil adli wal ehsaan wa eetaayi zil qurba". (Nahl: 9) (Verily Allah enjoins you to be just and sacrifice for others and help your kinsfolk)
"Famaiyamal Misqala zarratin khairiyin yarahu. Wamaiy yamal misqala zarratin sharrain yarahu" (So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it and whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it.)
"Laisa bi amaniyyakum wala amaniyyi ahlil kitabi mai yamal su-an yujza bihi wala yajid lahu mindunillahi waliyaun wala naseera". (It will not be in accordance with your desire , nor those of the people of scripture (Jews and Christians) whosoever works evil, will have the recompense thereof and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allah.)
"Qul ya ibadiyal lazeena asrafu ala anfusihim lataqnatu mir rahmatillahi innallaha yaghfiruz zunuba jameea. Innahu huwal ghafoorur rahim" (Zumar: 53) (Say, O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves by committing evil deeds and sins! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is oft- forgiving, most merciful)

IN all these ayah Allah has reserved for himself the post of ultimate judge, He has not appointed any one else besides him to do shafaat, actually above ayah kills the very concept of shafaat, because an atom of good deed will be rewarded and an tom of evil deed will be punished. And only Allah will Judge that. He has not exempted anyone from that. If we take Quran as our guide then the whole concept of infalibilty and innocence falls. any fiqah which hold not true to Quranic injunctions will nullify itself .

accountability wrote:Brother Aqs

The books you mentioned do not neccessarily authenticate infalibility of imams and dai.

Thankyou Porus Saheb for valued input as always.

Aqs said, "the point for these claims is simple, to authenticate the decision made by Haq na Saheb."

That was exactly what I had thought, but I wanted you to say. This whole excercise to prove the infalibility of Dai was to make sure that What ever decisions regarding whatever may not be challanged. Though I find it difficult to understand.
you introduced one more doctrinal phrase,"Haq na Saheb". Which again will bear no refrence from whatever source. You might come accross refrences for three seperate words, you will find refrence for Haq many a places, then you will find a refrence for "na" or "saheb". Add them together it becomes "Haq na Saheb". Daimul Islam and tawil ud daim does not have this.
Dont you think there is an effort going on to prove that no body questions decisions made by present administration. But attaching infalibily or ultimate innocence kills the very purpose of accountability, which is basic to any faith or religion. why would some one do good, if there is no reward and why would not some one commit sin if there is no punishment. Allah being the ultimate Judge would not defy his own command.

In quran it is dealt at length, Quran negates infalibity or innocence.

"Innallaha ya mooru bil adli wal ehsaan wa eetaayi zil qurba". (Nahl: 9) (Verily Allah enjoins you to be just and sacrifice for others and help your kinsfolk)
"Famaiyamal Misqala zarratin khairiyin yarahu. Wamaiy yamal misqala zarratin sharrain yarahu" (So whoever does good equal to the weight of an atom, shall see it and whosoever does evil equal to the weight of an atom shall see it.)
"Laisa bi amaniyyakum wala amaniyyi ahlil kitabi mai yamal su-an yujza bihi wala yajid lahu mindunillahi waliyaun wala naseera". (It will not be in accordance with your desire , nor those of the people of scripture (Jews and Christians) whosoever works evil, will have the recompense thereof and he will not find any protector or helper besides Allah.)
"Qul ya ibadiyal lazeena asrafu ala anfusihim lataqnatu mir rahmatillahi innallaha yaghfiruz zunuba jameea. Innahu huwal ghafoorur rahim" (Zumar: 53) (Say, O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves by committing evil deeds and sins! Despair not of the mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is oft- forgiving, most merciful)

IN all these ayah Allah has reserved for himself the post of ultimate judge, He has not appointed any one else besides him to do shafaat, actually above ayah kills the very concept of shafaat, because an atom of good deed will be rewarded and an tom of evil deed will be punished. And only Allah will Judge that. He has not exempted anyone from that. If we take Quran as our guide then the whole concept of infalibilty and innocence falls. any fiqah which hold not true to Quranic injunctions will nullify itself .

Br.

I will repeat few points which i have made till now. this will help us to discuss them point wise

1) A dai is Masoon (infaliable), i have mentioned Kitabul Himma and Risalatul Tambiul gafeleen who support my view with the reverence they give to Imam, and as Dai is working on behalf of Imam(as) he enjoys the same status.

2) Haq na Saheb: People have different views on the notion of Haq na saheb, I believe that Imam(as) is haq na saheb, and dai in Imam's seclusion holds the seat and is Haq na saheb.

I have mentioned it before that the decisions taken by haq na saheb has a bearing on the large scale which we might not comprehend at present, so we need to accept their decision without question that is a part and parcel of Imaan of a mumin

No doubt, Imams and Dais are worthy of respect, reverence even. However, if we ascribe qualities like infallibility to them then support for this view must be sought in the Quran, not in books written by scholars. Otherwise we go against Quran's warning in Surat al-tawba, ayat 31.

اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

They have take their religious scholars and their religious leaders as their Rab (plural arbaab) beside Allah. And Masiha, son of Maryam, as well. However. they have not been ordered except to worship one God. There is no God but Him, but they share His glory (with others). (9:31)

porus wrote:No doubt, Imams and Dais are worthy of respect, reverence even. However, if we ascribe qualities like infallibility to them then support for this view must be sought in the Quran, not in books written by scholars. Otherwise we go against Quran's warning in Surat al-tawba, ayat 31.

اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

They have take their religious scholars and their religious leaders as their Rab (plural arbaab) beside Allah. And Masiha, son of Maryam, as well. However. they have not been ordered except to worship one God. There is no God but Him, but they share His glory (with others). (9:31)

Yes, but where in the Ayah is it mentioned that others besides God cannot be infallible?
To worship and to deem as infallible are completely distinct.

profastian wrote:

porus wrote:No doubt, Imams and Dais are worthy of respect, reverence even. However, if we ascribe qualities like infallibility to them then support for this view must be sought in the Quran, not in books written by scholars. Otherwise we go against Quran's warning in Surat al-tawba, ayat 31.

اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

They have take their religious scholars and their religious leaders as their Rab (plural arbaab) beside Allah. And Masiha, son of Maryam, as well. However. they have not been ordered except to worship one God. There is no God but Him, but they share His glory (with others). (9:31)

Yes, but where in the Ayah is it mentioned that others besides God cannot be infallible?
To worship and to deem as infallible are completely distinct.

"However, if we ascribe qualities like infallibility to them then support for this view must be sought in the Quran, not in books written by scholars."

That was in response to Aqs who supports infallibility from books other than the Quran, like tanbih al-ghafileen and kitab al-himma. And I quoted ayat 9:31 in support my view that the Quran, rather than scholars, must provide support for infallibility of the Dai and of Imams after Imam Husain.

Quran supports infallibility of Ahlul Bayt. Ahlul Bayt for me are Panjatan only. I have previously detailed the argument in support of this view. Shia include various lines of their Imams as Ahlul bayt and as infallible. Sunnis include Prophet's extended family, including his wives and his uncles, as Ahlul bayt. Although, Sunnis do not ascribe infallibility to them, not even to Prophet Muhammad.

I have yet to be convinced by the Shia or the Sunni view that the term Ahlul Bayt applies to anyone other Panjatan. I will accept evidence from the Quran only, supported by hadith acceptable to all Muslims.

MUMBAI’S BIGGEST real estate redevelopment project is set to take off — as soon as the Union Ministry of Environment and Forests agrees to relax the Environment (Protection) Act with regard to the reconstruction of old buildings in a coastal regulation zone (CRZ)....

According to state government officials, the Union ministry earlier this month gave its ‘in-principle’ approval to the state’s proposal to redevelop this vast stretch of land, with the condition that it must benefit end-users and the masses. The final notification is yet to come.....

MHADA expects to get 1 lakh flats free of cost from this project. These would be sold at government rates.....

The above is extracts from the article published here http://www.tehelka.com/story_main46.asp ... mumbai.asp

If kothar is interested only in welfare of the resident of Bhendi bazar and are not interested in financial gain in the dream project of Bhendi bazar then they should work with the MHADA.

Brother Aqs, I am sorry you are not making point. Even If we assume what you said about those books is correct, it does not say that Dai and imam are infalible. It deals with the protocols for being in presence of imam. Having mughlai protocols will not mean, that imams have become infalible.
When Daim ul Islam and Tawil ud daim does not support such notions, they are our fiqah source ( you can not have numerous fiqah source) fiqah covers every aspect of religion, when we subscribe to one fiqah it will be in toto, you can not have fiqah in bits. Then they are not infalible.
You did not produce one source which mentions words infalible or innocent for imam. In seclusion Dai is nominee of imam, but does not have the same status as imam. I must correct myself, in earlier post that Dai bears the same status as imam. But I went back and tried to find it in Daim ul islam. It was not there. Daim ul islam does not deal with aftermath of seclusion. There is no mentions of Dai or their status in daur e satr.

Porus bhai, Shia's claim of infalibity of imams do not have much credence either, I did go through your earlier post regarding infalibity of Ahly bait, Which Inludes Ali, But Ali has on occassions admitted that he made a mistake by ordering ceasfire with muawiya when his men brought quran on their heads.

accountability wrote:Brother Aqs, I am sorry you are not making point. Even If we assume what you said about those books is correct, it does not say that Dai and imam are infalible. It deals with the protocols for being in presence of imam. Having mughlai protocols will not mean, that imams have become infalible.

Have you gone through the books i have mentioned, they were books thought in zahir sabaks so i took their name, otherwise their are other books which discusses infallibility of imam in detail but due to the call of oath i cant talk about them, I have my limitations in putting accross my view where i cant support them with backing of books of Haqiqat.

When Daim ul Islam and Tawil ud daim does not support such notions, they are our fiqah source ( you can not have numerous fiqah source) fiqah covers every aspect of religion, when we subscribe to one fiqah it will be in toto, you can not have fiqah in bits.

I have told this before that Syedna Qazi Noman is not the only source of Fiqah we have,
now what is fiqah??
its Islamic jurisprudence and endorsed by present Haq na saheb, So Fiqah is what Haq na saheb says on any fiqah issue, to make things simpler Daimul Islam is taken as a reference book on max cases but its not the only thing we refer while giving decisions, and you will very well remember about zikr of qinat in the chapter of Interest, though Syedna Qazi Noman has endorsed it but in present circumstances Syedna(tus) has barred mumineen to use it in any way.

So in essence whatever Haq na saheb says thats fiqah.

Then they are not infalible.You did not produce one source which mentions words infalible or innocent for imam. In seclusion Dai is nominee of imam, but does not have the same status as imam. I must correct myself, in earlier post that Dai bears the same status as imam. But I went back and tried to find it in Daim ul islam. It was not there. Daim ul islam does not deal with aftermath of seclusion. There is no mentions of Dai or their status in daur e satr.

I have told this before also that Daimul Islam does not deal with the subject so you will not find what are you looking for in it, and definitely Daimul Islam does not deal with post seclusion period because it was not meant to, their are different books written by earlier Duat of Yemen which deals with the topic.

accountability wrote: Porus bhai, Shia's claim of infalibity of imams do not have much credence either, I did go through your earlier post regarding infalibity of Ahly bait, Which Inludes Ali, But Ali has on occassions admitted that he made a mistake by ordering ceasfire with muawiya when his men brought quran on their heads.

Quran supports infallibility of Panjatan Pak in ayat 33:33 and the hadith of ahl ul-kisaa.

No blame of any 'mistake' can be laid at Ali's door with regard to what transpired at the battle of Siffin. Ali had asked his army to continue fighting when he saw Muawiya's subterfusge in displaying Quran on the spears. Ali saw it for what it was. A deception. His soldiers however, weary of battle, did not follow his command.

He wanted Malik al-Ashtar to be in charge of negotiations with Muawiya's representative Amr bin Aas. His soldiers wanted Abu Musa Ashari, who was not skilled at negotiation. In the event treaty of 'peace' went against Ali in some major respects.

When an infallible Quran and infallible Prophet could not persuade some people, it stands to reason that Ali would also meet with partial success in this area. As always, Ali acted in line with the Quran in wanting to establish unity among Muslims, not wanting to shed more Muslim blood, and not forcing his views on others. His role was to admonish and warn, which as a true Guide, he did.

With regard to knowledge of infallibility of Ali, this was, at that time, confined to hard core Shia of Ali who had understood the Quran best, among which was the Qurra, the most prominent reciters of the Quran in Kufa and the repository of nascent Muslim scholarship. Ali had the responsibility for protecting this heritage from being destroyed because many among the Qurra were with him in the battle.

Preserving the unity of Muslims and the culture's spearhead, the Kuffan Qurra, was also one of the main reasons why Imam Hasan chose to abdicate the Khalifat. Both these events had as much realpolitik involved as the need to preserve the spirit of Islam.

Nice post, porus.

aqs, if you can't reveal the sources then what is the point in talking about them. Besides, as so many have mentioned here, for Muslims no source can supersede or invalidate the Quran.

aqs wrote:
Br.

I will repeat few points which i have made till now. this will help us to discuss them point wise

1) A dai is Masoon (infaliable), i have mentioned Kitabul Himma and Risalatul Tambiul gafeleen who support my view with the reverence they give to Imam, and as Dai is working on behalf of Imam(as) he enjoys the same status.

2) Haq na Saheb: People have different views on the notion of Haq na saheb, I believe that Imam(as) is haq na saheb, and dai in Imam's seclusion holds the seat and is Haq na saheb.

I have mentioned it before that the decisions taken by haq na saheb has a bearing on the large scale which we might not comprehend at present, so we need to accept their decision without question that is a part and parcel of Imaan of a mumin

"a dai is infallible". - a dai who publicly curses the first 3 khalifas, is caught out and riots occur, bohras are assaulted, their businesses looted and some even killed, while the dai escapes in a police jeep and later, in order to prevent further bloodshed and more bohras getting murdered, is forced to publicly express regrets at his mistaken actions and rash words, such a dai is maasoom and infallible???? such a dai is a true representative of the imam???

"dai in imam's seclusion holds the seat and is haq na saheb" - haq na saheb running away under police protection instead of standing upto his haq to curse first 3 khalifas??? same haq na saheb going on murderous sprees to kill endangered species of innocent wild animals??? same haq na saheb whose father mentioned under oath that the concept of hidden imam is imaginary and does not have a basis in reality???

Al Zulfiqar wrote:
"a dai is infallible". - a dai who publicly curses the first 3 khalifas, is caught out and riots occur, bohras are assaulted, their businesses looted and some even killed, while the dai escapes in a police jeep and later, in order to prevent further bloodshed and more bohras getting murdered, is forced to publicly express regrets at his mistaken actions and rash words, such a dai is maasoom and infallible???? such a dai is a true representative of the imam???

"dai in imam's seclusion holds the seat and is haq na saheb" - haq na saheb running away under police protection instead of standing upto his haq to curse first 3 khalifas??? same haq na saheb going on murderous sprees to kill endangered species of innocent wild animals??? same haq na saheb whose father mentioned under oath that the concept of hidden imam is imaginary and does not have a basis in reality???

Oh man i had missed these posts
where you bring in lanat episode, wild life shooting, oath and your favorite Syedna's Mother at the drop of the hat.

welcome back

Now on a more serious note

what do you call these
1) Moula Ali(as) not fighting the first three Khalifs for his Haq, and accepting to work with them for the unity of Islam and for safety of Muslims.
2) Imam Hasan's(as) ceasefire with Muawia, which was publicly looked down upon by many muslims of the time as humiliating.

these are just examples and definitely i am in no way comparing a dai with Imam. this is just to show that when the time comes few decisions are taken which might look as Haq na saheb is compromising but they are for the general good of Mumineen.

i have asked this before also to present the court archives where it says Syedna Taher Saifudding said that Imam is a figment of imagination, so please do the needful.

Humsafar wrote:Nice post, porus.

aqs, if you can't reveal the sources then what is the point in talking about them. Besides, as so many have mentioned here, for Muslims no source can supersede or invalidate the Quran.

Humsafar,

if i remember correctly, last time i mentioned these books you had termed them that i am scrapping the bottom of the barrel, and you will leave it at that.

Quran is the final book which should validate all things, In dawoodi bohra maslak we believe that Quran contains hidden meanings and which are revealed by haq na saheb so sure we have got things to support our claim but on public forum they cant be discussed.

I had supported my claim with things which can be talked about easily from books taught in zahir sabaks, but it seems you dont even have these books to verify my claims, so you should also wait for Insaaf saheb to publish the list of rare books reformists have got in possession and might be he will lend you his copy of Kitabul himma and risalatul tambiul gafeleen with few others.

aqs wrote: Quran is the final book which should validate all things, In dawoodi bohra maslak we believe that Quran contains hidden meanings and which are revealed by haq na saheb so sure we have got things to support our claim but on public forum they cant be discussed.

وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً

"And He has lavished upon you blessings, both zaahir and baatin" (31:20)

First let me distinguish taawil from baatin. Both are mentioned in the Quran. Bohra Taawil is concerned with the beginning and end of creation and is allegorical interpretation of the Quran replete with eclectic philosophies and myth-making. I will not deal with taawil in this post.

Quran describes baatin (hidden meaning) as a blessing in the above ayat (31:20). Therefore, baatin, though hidden, cannot be secret from all those who seek to understand the Quran. Quran is complete and self-referential. That means that both zaahir and baatin are within its message, not outside of it confined to a select few. The select few can explain them better, though.

Ayat 64:8 commands Muslims to believe in Allah, His messenger and the noor that He has revealed. Shia explain noor to refer to Ali using baatin of Quran only.

The following youtube video makes baatin of several ayats, including 64:8), clear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCdft94uvfc

The 'polemical and entertaining' tafseer of ayat 64:8 is in the following video. It is in Urdu and the speaker has marked Punjabi accent. However, he is perfectly understandable. Watch both videos in the series.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BN-BeLXHZCw

These videos are not shy of revealing what baatin is in the Quran, a book available to all. When Quran, with its countless interpretations, can be easily accessible, what is so secretive about the "books of daawat" that they cannot stand the onslaught of criticisms from others? It is the Quran, more important than any book that Daawat can produce, that stands unbeaten and supreme.

I had promised I wouldn't respond but this is just too much to let pass by.

I was watching the videos that porus suggested. The narrator claims that he will establish the shia kalima to be the truth from the Quran, however, his entire argument is based on a disputed claim that the Prophet appointed Hazrat Ali as his khalifa and successor in Ghadeer-e-khum. So he is presenting arguments not from the Quran but from a disputed event narrated in hadiths.

Besides "sent with the prophet" doesn't point to the time when it was sent down, but the emphasis is on what was sent and who it was sent to.

I will be going into the details of 31:20 and the zahir and baatin referenced in that ayah after ramadan inshaallah.