Khuzema Qutbuddin (and related topics)

[Adam]

Burn in jealousy & deprivation. Burn [/quote]

Yup.
كَلاَّ لَيُنبَذَنَّ فِى الْحُطَمَةِ * وَمَآ أَدْرَاكَ مَا الْحُطَمَةُ * نَارُ اللَّهِ الْمُوقَدَةُ * الَّتِى تَطَّلِعُ عَلَى الاَْفْئِدَةِ * إِنَّهَا عَلَيْهِم مُّؤْصَدَةٌ * فِى عَمَدٍ مُّمَدَّدَةِ

I hope you understand Arabic?

[anajmi]

Any reason why you chose to omit the first 3 ayahs of that surah?

WOE unto every slanderer, fault-finder!
who amasses wealth and counts it a safeguard,
thinking that his wealth will make him live forever!

Al-Hayy anyone?

Hope you understand English!!

[anajmi]

It is so sad to see the two factions of Dawoodi Bohras curse each other's Dai. Well, actually it is not sad. It is hilarious. If you take the sum of these two parts, then both Dais are frauds. Well done 52 and 2x53.

By the way, sajda is not wajib as per kitab al himma. This has been discussed in great detail here on this forum in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5924&p=78640&hilit= ... mma#p78640

[Adam]

Yes it is. It was proven from that text (and Porus agreed) that there was a typo in the text on the 12th line.
But I guess you chose not to read that.

[anajmi]

Yes it is. It was proven from that text (and Porus agreed) that there was a typo in the text on the 12th line.
But I guess you chose not to read that.

This is the last post from porus on that thread.

I believe that the attribution to Qadi Noman as recommending sajda to humans in his kitab ul-himma is false. He is doing no such thing. He explicitly states that Imams have not instructed us to perform sajda to them and that Prophet forbade sajda to him by his followers.

But I guess you chose not to read that.

By the way, if porus is the yardstick, then you just shot yourself in the foot one more time.

[pheonix]

Yes it is. It was proven from that text (and Porus agreed) that there was a typo in the text on the 12th line.
But I guess you chose not to read that.

This is the last post from porus on that thread.

I believe that the attribution to Qadi Noman as recommending sajda to humans in his kitab ul-himma is false. He is doing no such thing. He explicitly states that Imams have not instructed us to perform sajda to them and that Prophet forbade sajda to him by his followers.

But I guess you chose not to read that.

By the way, if porus is the yardstick, then you just shot yourself in the foot one more time.

Shoo mongrel Shoo, has anyone heard what his evil brethen to a chirtian couple in Pakistan. He must be jumping in ecstasy.

[haqniwaat]

Burn in jealousy & deprivation. Burn

Adam, the only person here who is burning is you. You still do not understand anything about Fatimid faith if you choose, and your muffy has chosen to ridicule the high rutba of mazoon. Remove mazoon from your misaaq and save everyone the trouble of calling you a hypocrite.

[zinger]

You can read about the Fatemi Processions, and Carriages the Imam used to ride on. If you're jealous the Pomp and Glory shown by the 51st, 52nd and 53rd Dai during their Friday Mawkibs and Processions, then you're in for a surprise when you read about the Glory of Fatimi AS Era :

Burn in jealousy & deprivation. Burn

Yes Adam
Tell that to the family of Mehfuza Ben who was left to die outside the Jamatkhana.

You have this simply irritating habit of bringing in unrelated posts and diverting topics.

i have pointed it out many times before.

and then you have the audacity of accusing others of doing so... what double standards you enjoy and employ sbm bhai, wah bhai wah

[Adam]

@Crater Lake

And no matter how much MS and his clowns tried, they could not make Burhanuddin Moula look ridiculous. All eye were on him an him alone. I never even noticed the clowns around
Burhanuddin Moula before.

Was it normal for you Qutbi's back in the day to ridicule the Majlis of Syedna Mohammed Burhanyddin RA? Was your faith in the Dai that weak that you'll thought "ridiculous" "clowns" would stand in his Hazrat and Syedna was unable to do anything about it? Your true belief about the Maqaam of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin is being revealed day by day.

It's unfortunate. If you had frequented the Hazrat of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA, you would have been aware of the Tradtions of Dawat. You would have also been aware of the Khidmat Guzars who stood in his service, with his raza, and with his blessings. These Khidmat Guzaars added to the Indo Arab Traditions.

Here are a few more pictures of these 2 khidmat guzaars from not too far ago, from BEFORE the "Dawat was hijacked after the stroke". There are plenty more. You can check Malumaat.com:
17th Rabi ul Akhar Milad Procession 1431


1st Ramadan 1432


100th Milad Night 1432



About the Pomp and Carriages.
You can read about the Fatemi Processions, and Carriages the Imam used to ride on. If you're jealous the Pomp and Glory shown by the 51st, 52nd and 53rd Dai during their Friday Mawkibs and Processions, then you're in for a surprise when you read about the Glory of Fatimi AS Era :
Ritual, Politics, and the City in Fatimid Cairo, Paula Sanders
http://books.google.lk/books/about/Ritu ... edir_esc=y
http://simerg.com/literary-readings/the ... -the-nile/

No matter how much your clan attempts to tarnish the Maqaam of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA, his Dai Syedna Mufaddal TUS will remember it, and re-live it.

Burn in jealousy & deprivation. Burn

@haqnidawat

Adam, the only person here who is burning is you. You still do not understand anything about Fatimid faith if you choose, and your muffy has chosen to ridicule the high rutba of mazoon.

What don't I understand about Fatemi faith?
I have been giving information in regards to everything.
It is you and the Qutbi's on this Form that have failed to counter even one of those answers.

(PS: Syedna Burhanuddin refrained from using the word FatimiD and said "Fatemi" instead, because Fatemi was Arabic and FatimiD was an English version). At least I know that much more that you


All you'll hide behind is KQ being supposedly forever right, when he and his children have been proven to be wrong, time and time again.

No. I do not ridicule the High Rutba of the Mazoon Syedi Husain Bs.
KQ isn't the Mazoon anymore, he's an impostor claimant who's ridiculed his own self.

When he WAS the Mazoon, I followed his announcement on the Tahiyaat website informing us of the Nass on Syedna Mufaddal TUS. I believed him! And after he was removed from Dawat, I seized to follow him.

[haqniwaat]

Husain husamuddin is the biggest liar in the world! He only defended Syedna Qutbuddin in his sabaqs and now he calls him a liar! BTW he is just the zahir mazoon now - johra sharaf can't stand him to be the batin mazoon! Pot of gold from muffy and he did a 180. Some mazoon! Your beliefs are crap and everyone knows it.

[Sceptical]

When he WAS the Mazoon, I followed his announcement on the Tahiyaat website informing us of the Nass on Syedna Mufaddal TUS.
[/color]

Adam bhai, you are an intelligent person but I'm tired by this stupid rhetoric.
The website was just saying that Mazoon Saheb listened to the audio relay of QJ bs. It was a compulsory world wide relay.

KQ's camp said they do not want to create a split during SMB(ra) lifetime, specially just after the "nuss anoucement" and they hoped SMB(ra) recovered to clarify the situation.

So, the quote from their website do not prove anything, and you know it. You are smart enough to understand it.

I've heard many times that all hudoods inclunding Shehzadas performed sajda to Mazoon Saheb before. And what about the letters from Mufaddal Saheb and QJ bs referring to Mazoon saheb as "Maula" ... ?

You will argue that the letters and Sajda do not prove anything also...

[rational_guy]

Adam

You have claimed that MS has given a lot of arguments of his Nass on many websites. Can you open it up for comments. So that proper, intelligible arguments can be made.

[Adam]

Husain husamuddin is the biggest liar in the world!

Tsk tsk. Is that what you called the 3rd highest Rutba in Dawat?
After the Mazoon, we must only listen to what he says. (KQ was removed from the position, so we listen to Husain bs)

@Sceptical

The website was just saying that Mazoon Saheb listened to the audio relay of QJ bs.

The website mentioned the Nass of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin.
So, I followed the Mazoon's website when he was in the position of the Mazoon.
After he was removed, is word no longer counts.

And what about the letters from Mufaddal Saheb and QJ bs referring to Mazoon saheb as "Maula" ... ?

Referring to someone as Moula doesn't make them the Mansoos or Dai. It is said out of respect, the same was said for "Mukasir "Moula".
Only the clear Nass of a Dai can make a Mansoos.

According to your logic of referring to KQ as "Moula".
[IF] the Nass was private and ONLY SMB and KQ knew about it:
How did Syedna Mufadal TUS and Shz QJB know about the Nass to refer to him as Moula?
[IF], according to your statement some Shehzadas gave Sajda to him. And Sajdo (According to you) equalling Ta'at, how did the Shehzadas know about the Nass?

@rational_guy

You have claimed that MS has given a lot of arguments of his Nass on many websites. Can you open it up for comments. So that proper, intelligible arguments can be made.

- I'm pretty sure that Syedna TUS isn't giving those arguments.
- Those sites seem to be run by private individuals.

I have read most of the arguments posted on the sites, and am open to share my thoughts as well - to the best of my ability.

But, we all know this Forum, with its esteemed Wahabi and Proggy personalities, isn't the best place for "intelligible arguments". You can even PM me if you like. Crater Lake and Haqnidawat don't seem to be able to answer anything when exposed.

[SBM]

Yes Adam
Tell that to the family of Mehfuza Ben who was left to die outside the Jamatkhana.

You have this simply irritating habit of bringing in unrelated posts and diverting topics.

i have pointed it out many times before.

and then you have the audacity of accusing others of doing so... what double standards you enjoy and employ sbm bhai, wah bhai wah
Zinger

How is that unrelated and diverting the topic
You must be a heartless person if you think the death of a destitute Mumenat was not worth discussing while discussing the Pomp of Fatimied Dais How pathetic that you only have Adam supporting you.
How much Najwa people like you and your elks provided to Kothari Masters riding on high horses while HOW MUCH DID YOU PROVIDE TO HELP MEHFUZA BEN'S FAMILY

[Sceptical]

According to your logic of referring to KQ as "Moula".
[IF] the Nass was private and ONLY SMB and KQ knew about it:
How did Syedna Mufadal TUS and Shz QJB know about the Nass to refer to him as Moula?
[IF], according to your statement some Shehzadas gave Sajda to him. And Sajdo (According to you) equalling Ta'at, how did the Shehzadas know about the Nass?

Maybe there were ishaara from SMB(RA),
Maybe elevating SKQ to the high rutbah of Mazoon whereas he was only 26 was a ishaara,
Maybe the first Missaq bayaan was enough to understand that SMB(RA) was doing a strong ishaara toward young SKQ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwu1zliy-Mc

z ul fazlil mubin
z ur raayil vakil
v al walad ul ahab
v al mukhleso fi ta’atehi be Dai’il asre val hin

Please, Adam, explain me how can you explain :
1) SMS referring to SKQ as his "Maula", and said he (SMS) was his (SKQ) "gulam"
2) Married one of SKQ daughter and his son Taha also married SKQ daughter
3) and finally, SMS said "Bawaji saheb ne ghana sataya che" and new Mukasir reffering to SKQ as a "zaalim" and pray Lanaat on him

SMS is Dai, so he must be (kal) masoom... how could he be so wrong about SKQ before ?

[kimanumanu]

That's the irony. On one hand they say laanat because they claim that Syedna Burhanuddin RA's stature is being attacked yet by the very act of saying laanat on his Mazoon of 50 years they are doing the very thing they are accusing someone else of.

[think_for_yourself]

[/b] You would have also been aware of the Khidmat Guzars who stood in his service, with his raza, and with his blessings. These Khidmat Guzaars added to the Indo Arab Traditions.

Here are a few more pictures of these 2 khidmat guzaars from not too far ago, from BEFORE the "Dawat was hijacked after the stroke". There are plenty more. You can check Malumaat.com:

I went for every Ashara since 1419, I was also there for 100 mi milad - in fact right in front of the takhat during the entire waaz and I have to say that my significant memories are not of these clowns. My eyes were on Aqa Moula and my ears for his kalaam. I do not remember seeing these jokers in bad costumes before. I can guarantee it was Muffy's or his brother-in-law's idea to plant these jokers behind our Moula - one more way to make his lackeys feel special. But then I was never one to be blinded by the showmanship around Burhanuddin Moula as I was so focused on what he was doing and saying, so I never noticed all this crap. Like someone said before, with Muffy you can't help but notice the ridiculousness around him because there is so little about him that holds one's attention (unless you count them awesome gold rimmed transitionals...Those , my eyes are riveted by...!!! )

[zinger]

Yes Adam
Tell that to the family of Mehfuza Ben who was left to die outside the Jamatkhana.

You have this simply irritating habit of bringing in unrelated posts and diverting topics.

i have pointed it out many times before.

and then you have the audacity of accusing others of doing so... what double standards you enjoy and employ sbm bhai, wah bhai wah
Zinger

How is that unrelated and diverting the topic
You must be a heartless person if you think the death of a destitute Mumenat was not worth discussing while discussing the Pomp of Fatimied Dais How pathetic that you only have Adam supporting you.
How much Najwa people like you and your elks provided to Kothari Masters riding on high horses while HOW MUCH DID YOU PROVIDE TO HELP MEHFUZA BEN'S FAMILY

Neither for both. What about you? And your question back to you, HOW MUCH DID YOU PROVIDE TO HELP MEHFUZA BEN'S FAMILY

And this is just one instance. You have done this many times in the past.

[SBM]

Neither for both. What about you? And your question back to you, HOW MUCH DID YOU PROVIDE TO HELP MEHFUZA BEN'S FAMILY

Check you PM

[abde53]

Neither for both. What about you? And your question back to you, HOW MUCH DID YOU PROVIDE TO HELP MEHFUZA BEN'S FAMILY

Zinger bhai
It is sad that you asked SBM bhai if he gave any help. If you wanted to help Mehfuza Ben or anyone else you donot do it because some body else is not doing you do it to help the people and to get the Khushi of Allaha.
If you did not help anyone you should not ask others if they did
I do remember that it was Bohraji Bhai and SBM bhai who has started the Poverty in Ahmedabad scheme here and it was SBM bhai who was updating us about Mehfuza Ben along with GM bhai so I suppose he may have help them may be he can answer but I am sad that you have to respond like this

[alam]

Zingerbhai

it is a sad trend to ask anyone how much they give to charity - even though you are trying to make a point - that is somewhat besides the point. Don't lose the big picture of the forest - by trying to analyze the contributions of a single branch of an anonymous tree.

[Adam]

According to your logic of referring to KQ as "Moula".
[IF] the Nass was private and ONLY SMB and KQ knew about it:
How did Syedna Mufadal TUS and Shz QJB know about the Nass to refer to him as Moula?
[IF], according to your statement some Shehzadas gave Sajda to him. And Sajdo (According to you) equalling Ta'at, how did the Shehzadas know about the Nass?

Maybe there were ishaara from SMB(RA),
Maybe elevating SKQ to the high rutbah of Mazoon whereas he was only 26 was a ishaara,
Maybe the first Missaq bayaan was enough to understand that SMB(RA) was doing a strong ishaara toward young SKQ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwu1zliy-Mc

z ul fazlil mubin
z ur raayil vakil
v al walad ul ahab
v al mukhleso fi ta’atehi be Dai’il asre val hin

Please, Adam, explain me how can you explain :
1) SMS referring to SKQ as his "Maula", and said he (SMS) was his (SKQ) "gulam"
2) Married one of SKQ daughter and his son Taha also married SKQ daughter
3) and finally, SMS said "Bawaji saheb ne ghana sataya che" and new Mukasir reffering to SKQ as a "zaalim" and pray Lanaat on him

SMS is Dai, so he must be (kal) masoom... how could he be so wrong about SKQ before ?

Interesting questions, but you've got it all jumbled up.
All these questions have been answered on public forums before.

Very simply put. It is the Dai's responsibility to appoint his Mansoos, thus it is HIS responsibility to appoint witnesses. Quoting Syedna Abdeali Saifuddin when people kept asking who he would appoint etc etc he basically said "this is MY business", not anyone elses.

1. IF there was an Ishara from SMB RA, then that means KQ's Nass wasn't a Private Nass, because other people knew about it. If that is true (and it isn't), KQ's claim to a Private Nass is invalid, and all the arguments that he puts forward are then automatically false, because that's the base of his claim.
2. Even IF there was an Ishara, KQ maintains it was a Public Nass "jeware Zahir thasey tiware". IF other people were given this Ishara, they would have also been instructed to keep it a secret. Thus, IF they performed ANYTHING in Public that symbolised ANYTHING to do with an alleged Nass they were aware of: A) It would be a complete violation of SMB's RA orders B) If they were wrong, KQ should have known better and told them to stop it, because privacy was to be maintained. KQ violated the farman of privacy.

Your next few questions:
Making him Mazoon, Syedna's RA words during the Misaaq, all the titles he was given etc etc.
NONE of this gives ANYONE ANY right whatsoever to self proclaim, or even guess who the Mansoos is.
As mentioned above, appointing the Mansoos is the Dai's responsibility. No one elses.
Nass makes a Mansoos. Titles do not.
Even if Syedna RA used titles much, much much higher than the ones he gave KQ, that wouldn't automatically make him the Mansoos, nor does it give anyone the right to accept him as the Mansoos. That is a sin.

If you are so hung up about titles, why don't you remember Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA giving Syedna Mufaddal the following titles:
1) al Walad al Ahab (similar to KQ's)
2) al Fata al Kamil
3) Aqeeq al Yemen
4) Qurratul Aiyn (Mombasa 1414 - Relayed this year in Surat and wordwide)
Some more here: http://believesyednaqutbuddin.files.wor ... -walad.jpg

Again, these titles do not automatically make Syedna Mufaddal the Mansoos. It is the Nass that is of main importance.
For more information on these "titles", especially about "al walad al ahab", which is KQ's main claim, read these links:
http://qutbibohras.blogspot.com/2014/07 ... d-son.html
http://believesyednaqutbuddin.com/2014/ ... d-al-ahab/


Referring to KQ as Moula.
1. As mentioned before. No one has a right to assume the Mansoos, unless explicitly instructed by the Dai. In this case, if the Nass was private, how would anyone know if it, if they were to use the word "Moula" with that meaning in their mind.
2. "Moula" doesn't necessary need to be Dai or Mansoos. Moula is a word used for respect. And in this case, it was in respect for the high position he occupied. For the same reason, Mukasir Saheb was also referred to as "Moula", but we don't see him claiming to be the Dai.
For more discussion on the word Moula, read these links where the future Imam (who also knew he was the Mansoos), Imam Mansoor calls Ustaad Juzer "Moula"
http://believesyednaqutbuddin.com/2014/ ... f-dawat-1/
http://believesyednaqutbuddin.com/2014/ ... f-dawat-2/

Marriage does not affect a Mansoos whatsoever.
The Quran talks about Musa Nabi, Nooh Nabi marrying evil wives (before or after). And Rasulullah also did the same, for reasons known best to him. None of this accefts the Nabi or Rasools Prophethood in any way.

think_for_yourself

I went for every Ashara since 1419, I was also there for 100 mi milad - in fact right in front of the takhat during the entire waaz and I have to say that my significant memories are not of these clowns.

For you to continue to refer to them as clowns shows:
1. Your disrespect for the Dai's hazrat, and the traditions that happened with his permission.
2. You believe lost all control of his Dawat for so many years, that he wasn't aware of two "clowns" standing next to him, or was too weak (even before the stroke) to do anything about it. That shows your weak belief in the Dai.
3. It also shows you weren't paying attention to the Hazrat and surrounding (even before Moula entered).
4. These two Khidmat Guzaars are probably in their 30s - 40s right now. As far as I can remember they have been around since 10 years (about 1425H). Before that, 2 other khidmat Guzaars stood, and then these two took over.
5. I have personally seen Syedna RA fondly acknowledge them on multiple occasions.

It's a shame. Either you never came to the Hazrat. Or you wear ignorant back then as well.

[/color]

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam just relax, read this:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10279

[anajmi]

2. "Moula" doesn't necessary need to be Dai or Mansoos. Moula is a word used for respect. And in this case, it was in respect for the high position he occupied. For the same reason, Mukasir Saheb was also referred to as "Moula", but we don't see him claiming to be the Dai.

And yet when the prophet (saw) referred to Ali as a Moula in ghadeer all hell broke loose and people ended up doing la'nat for 14 centuries. I wish Adam was there at that time to clarify matters.

[JC]

2. "Moula" doesn't necessary need to be Dai or Mansoos. Moula is a word used for respect. And in this case, it was in respect for the high position he occupied. For the same reason, Mukasir Saheb was also referred to as "Moula", but we don't see him claiming to be the Dai.

And yet when the prophet (saw) referred to Ali as a Moula in ghadeer all hell broke loose and people ended up doing la'nat for 14 centuries. I wish Adam was there at that time to clarify matters.

So Mr. Adam and alike ............... what do you SAY to this??!!

[JC]

And between ALL MUSLIMS 'respect' and 'love' Ali .............. he is fourth Khalifa-e-Rashid ............ so majority of Muslims got it right in the first place.

[fayyaaz]

And yet when the prophet (saw) referred to Ali as a Moula in ghadeer all hell broke loose and people ended up doing la'nat for 14 centuries. I wish Adam was there at that time to clarify matters.

So Mr. Adam and alike ............... what do you SAY to this??!!

You too, JC!! anajmi's a......

What a shame!!

What Prophet said was, "Those for whom I am the Mawla, then Ali too is their Mawla. Those for whom I am the Wali, then Ali too is their Wali and their Ameer."

These are his exact words in translation. You can find the Prophet's speech at Ghadeer on the Internet.

I take Prophet's words to mean, that Ali is his equal in all respects. That is the Bohra view too. It specifically means that on the death of the Prophet, Prophet's guradianship of his ummat passed to Ali. That too is the Bohra view and also the view of all the Shia.

You may use the word Mawla, Lord, anna-data for anyone but cannot give them the status (maqam) of the Prophet. Only Prophet has the right to nominate someone to be his equal in status. And he clearly chose Ali for it.

So, to bring the event of Ghadeer to bear upon the current Chacha_Bhatija dispute is ridiculous beyond words.

[Adam]

Yes. Moula does mean, leader, someone ahead of you etc etc.

Rasulullah said Moulana Ali is the Mumineens "Moula".

Did SMB say that for KQ? No.
What the Qutbi's are referring to is Syedna Mufaddal referring to him as Moula.
We refer to Mazoon and Mukasir as "Moula" as well.
Even Moulaya Raaj (who wasn't even a Mulla) is referred to as Moula
That is completely in line with Dawat tradition and respect.

THE IMAM- Imam Mansoor referred to his GHULAM as MOULA.
Does that Make Ustaad Juzer greater? Of course not!
Read these two links to understand that:
http://believesyednaqutbuddin.com/2014/ ... f-dawat-1/
http://believesyednaqutbuddin.com/2014/ ... f-dawat-2/

And finally, IF Syedna Mufaddal was referring to him as "Moula" AND KNEW he was the Mansoos.
The question arises.
If the Nass was private, and only KQ and SMB knew about it, how did anyone else know about it?

[ghulam muhammed]

Yes. Moula does mean, leader, someone ahead of you etc etc.

So what is the meaning of "More-la", I mean both the zahir and batin version !!

[rational_guy]

Syedna Qutbuddin’s TUS focus in Ashara was on the bounties of the ‘ilm of Aale Muhammad, the remembrance of Imam Husain SA, and providing guidance for his followers, despite vehement verbal attacks. On the occasion of Syedna Hatim’s Urus, we remember that although he had to leave San’aa, Syedna Hatim established the Dawat in Hutaib and in the kehfun-naeem (cave of paradise) in Hutaib he nourished those who were with him with the ‘ilm and knowledge of Aale Muhammad. We also remember that Syedna Hatim’s enemy Ahwary said that, “far from having the characteristics of a Dai, Syedna Hatim does not even have the characteristics of a Mumin” –wal-iyaazu billah . Ahwary spread his falsehoods and – as outrageous as they were – many listened. Syedna Hatim was who he was – the Dai of Imam-uz-zaman – in spite of Ahwary and his false statements. Syedna Qutbuddin TUS is the waaris of Syedna Hatim: he is who he is – the 53rd Dai of Imam-uz-zaman – in spite of the false statements by detractors .

In his declaration (quoted above) Syedna’s conviction and strength is manifest. His fervor to serve the Imam’s Da’wat and his care for the children of his Da’wat – the Da’wat-ul-Haqq is apparent. His confidence in the veracity and truthfulness of his statement is self-evident.