Drunk again...S. Insaf wrote:
Drastic changes are in their way, just wait and watch.
Please read my post when you are sober, brotherly advise!Drunk again...
"Ghada kya jaane zafran ki qadr". If you call a bunch of junior artistes performing similar rhythemic matam like a dance chorus under farah khan a sign of grief of Imam Hussain (a.s.) a mohurrum majlis. If you call a herd of sheep ready to fall under the knife of kothar true bohras. If you call a bunch of medieval slaves crawling, bending and falling at the feet of a mortal human being true Islamists then ....... so much for the deteriorating mental health of bohras.profastian wrote:If you call a pack of clowns performing in a circus a conference. Then this would be a conference
Bro humsafar,Humsafar wrote:It's so funny that most times abdes forget to laugh!!!!
Really - what world do you live in? You also said that we left on our own and not kicked out. Do you seriously believe that? If that is the case, I can understand all your posts. Is it fair to assume that you do not have any family members of friends who are progressives? In which case, you do have the pain of not being able to socialise with them, share in major life events such as deaths, weddings and births and praying together in the same mosque.
Baraat is already not in effect and wajebaat is group of taxes on which you have already written a lengthy post, so you very well know the main component of it is zakaat and others are just name sake.
What happened to your demand of repealing Misaaq, Iddat and few other demands.
Br Aqs,aqs wrote:Incredibe,
no one was kicked out they went on their own, and as profastian has replied that it really does not matter in financial terms or for numbers sake if reformists come back to the fold, they hardly number around a couple of thousand.
What?aftabm wrote:
Brother Profastian,
Please try your "90%-will-be-in the-back-in-syedna-jhola-" trick, will save lot of efforts from kothar and all-loving-syedna. May be send a junior pronce, he might manage around 70-75% with Syedana's blessing......
Good luck
Br. Aftab,aftabm wrote:Br Aqs,aqs wrote:Incredibe,
no one was kicked out they went on their own, and as profastian has replied that it really does not matter in financial terms or for numbers sake if reformists come back to the fold, they hardly number around a couple of thousand.
Small correction, No one went on thier own. Read the history a little carefully, ther was bar'aat imposed on people who protested against the kothar.
Secondly, if you are in denial of bar'aat, get a reality check. I was in udaipur, couple of weeks back. One of my neighbour, an old man of around 90, a devout syedana follower, he used to lead prayers in mainstream, passed away. He had lot of relatives in reformist fold. But they were politely and firmly told not to attend funeral or any condololence "baithaks" to avoid any inconvenience to grieving family.
....you must have heard the quran surat "Kul ya ayuhal kaferoon...Allah will decide....regards..main stream bohraThere is no need to take Raza for Namaaz. Raza for namaaz has been given by Allah in the Quran and the prophet (saw) has given his full raza.2) Namaaz without Raza
Can you elaborate please....Islamic_Bohra wrote:there is a thrree fold good that is done fro welfare of bohra bhais
We get excellent facilities in any country we visit for ziyarat or other religious activity like ecellent staying conditions and food etc and all places are well maintained . This ismt possble without money flowing into the dawaat .I mean to say yes there is corruption but every individual is responsible for his deeds on day of qayamat so why worry plus the money which we give is apent all I've world and some 5% consed by coruptorsghulam muhammed wrote:Can you elaborate please....Islamic_Bohra wrote:there is a thrree fold good that is done fro welfare of bohra bhais
What directive and farmaan are you talking about? Are you referring to the local municipal elections in 1970 when the local aamil dictated Bohras which party to what for and handpicked its own candidates? You must know that the Kothar has no business in the secular affairs of the Bohras. Reformists had every right to rebel against such preposterous diktats.aqs wrote:...My view is you(Reformists) rejected Kothar's directive and rebelled against the farmaan...
The reformists did no wrong and there was no need to "mend our ways". Actually, the Kohtar, arrogant and proud, which is not used to being challenged should mend its ways. The whole institution of the Kothar with its aamils and bureaucracy is illegitimate. It should not just mend its ways but must cease to exist.aqs wrote:...and when told to mend your ways...
We did not "walk away", the orthodox, the so-called shabab group walked away. All the masjids, jamaatkhana and other community properties remained in the hands of reformists. We stayed put where we were, the shabab group walked away. We did not reject the dawat, the dawat rejected us.aqs wrote:...you rejected it, so in a way you walked away from dawat. and if we dont label this walking out ...
No raza is required for these things. It is an innovation to contol and harass Bohras. Prior to the 51st Dai the raza business was non-existent.aqs wrote:1) performing Nikah Without Raza and i think some where solemnized by Sunni Qaazi's
2) Namaaz without Raza
Galiakot is very close to Udaipur, and on every Urs huge number of people go there. Nothing new about it. But for argument's sake, let's admit they went in protest. So what's wrong with that? You mean to say Bohras are not allowed to protest against blatant wrong doing? They can't protest to their Dai about what was happening in Udaipur. And how does the Kothar responds to alledged protesters - before Dai's very eyes? With beatings, molestion, torture? As it happens in riots, people were marked to be beaten, women's rooms were invaded and they were beaten and chased out, their clothes and duppatas torn. Even children were not spared. And all this under shafiq bawa's very nose. And you have the temerity to say the refomrists have made it into an "ego issue".aqs wrote:3) Going in huge numbers to Galiyakot to protest(people dont go for talks with such huge numbers, only Representatives are sent)
So? Sheikh Ahmed Ali was the teacher of Sayedna. He was more than capable of becoming a religious leader. Remember, he was chased out of the Jamia where the goons were intent on killing him. Again, it was dawat that rejected him. He did not reject the dawat.aqs wrote:4) taking Ahmed Raaj in the fold and making him your de fecto Religious leader who performed all your religious rites.
Yes, lately in the past 10 years he is calling us back time and again - when the heat of the court cases and negative publicity became unbearable for his handlers. Before that they tried all ways and means to crush us and destroy the movement.aqs wrote:Syedna(tus) is calling you time and again to come back to the fold but it looks like you have gone on a path of no return
What kind of weasel argument is that. You and other abdes never tire of crowing about how our reformists numbers have dwindled, and now you have the cheek to say they don't leave us because they might be intimidated!!!! Chit bhi meri, pat bhi meri!!!aqs wrote:....like you accuse main stream bohras of fear of retribution from others if they join you then i feel its same for your people also who might be intimidated by you or just cant figure out how to go back lest turn a back on their forefathers movement....
You don't have to "believe" in Dai, the way abdes are made to believe in him. We accept him as Dai-al-Mutlaq. He is not infallible. He's a mere mortal who can and has made mistakes. The attack is not on the office of the dai but the person who occupies it.aqs wrote:...and when you mention that you believe in Dai ...
Right, to make our lives hell for us. Families were split, sons couldn't attend fatehr's funderal, brothers couldn't attend sister's wedding, people lived in the same house but could not talk to each other. Yes, these were very practical reasons to force and harass people to accept Kothar's diktat.aqs wrote:Baraat was initially imposed for very much practical reasons...
Yes, only when faced with the ex-communication court case. The lifting baraat was not born of compassion but was merely a tactic to get around the litigation. And of course, it was never genuine to begin with. Isn't Dai's word divine command for you abdes? Then how come is command is not implemented on the ground?aqs wrote:Baraat is officially revoked after Syedna(tus) visit to Udaipur....
Dear aqs,please go through your post once again and you will find its coming from a egoist or a person who is too bogged down by his personal ego that all his decision making is clouded, you claim to go to Rampura to get back into Dawat without any questions asked and when you were denied the opportunity you make it a point of ego and now say the time has gone.
so what now, from where i see i don’t see any changes happening so you will go on doing conferences every couple of years jotting down the same points you did 2 decades back and in the process either you will lose more people to the main stream or will leave people more delusional then they are now from the perceived freedom you feel you have achieved from religion.
Insaaf Saheb,S. Insaf wrote:Dear aqs,
You are well aware of the facts but you are employed here to create mischief and misunderstanding in the minds of simple-hearted mumineen who are not as knowledgeable.
No sir i have not forgotten any thing, i very well remember how people were mislead about things, and a administrative level issue was made to be a challenge to Dai himself in particular and dawat in general. you are right people were trying to sort out matters with kothar but it was you and your ilk who made such an environment that no talks were possible for a long time. You very well knew that if people will return your shop of reforms will close forever so you made it sure that when Dai came to Udaipur and asked every one to return back you put hurdles in the path, again Dai is calling every one back but you portray it as the defeat of people and play with the sentiments that this is the movement of your fathers and how can they show their back when win is eminent when you and i very well know that its never going to beYou are conveniently forgetting that it was the beginning and the Mumineen of Udaipur still had the impression Dai being humble, kind and forgiving. At the same time at that time the arrogance of Kothar was at its peak. Also the victims of Kothar’s terror in Udaipur had not joined the reform movement and they were trying to sort out the matter by themselves. ‘Personal ego’ was very much with Syedna Saheb’s establishment which was confident that it will crush dissidence by all the might at their command.
After they realized the result of their of repressive policy now they are moving around with bagging bowls in their hands inviting the same people back to their fold.
Please make up you mind, whether kothar has become ruthless or liberal, you accuse them of both according to your convenience.The liberal attitude the oppressors we see today is the result of World Conferences and public support the reformists through these Conferences.
oh please dont tell me about these so called scholars and activists who can run to any thing just to be in limelight. like you accuse of Kothar of photo ops with distinguished personalities of different countries then the same yardstick applies to you also.Let me remind you one more important aspect of these World Conferences. The social activists, social scientists, human rights activists, intellectuals, writers, poets, media and all honest people all over the world are joining hands with the reformists. The Kothar is compelled to buy favours from the corrupt and exploitative elements in political and administration fields.
and i request you to prove your allegations. May Allah give you long life to see who this century belongs to.I, request you to stop your mischief-mongering. As 20th Centaury was tyrants’ centaury the 21st centaury belongs to the reformists.
Humsafar Definitely its your personal Ego which is responsible for the identity crisis of people who have clutched your hand, they cant even define themselves on what they have become, I'll not get personal otherwise you can see it for your self how people are calling the maluns as hazrat, you question almost all the practices of DB's which have base in shariat as well as practice of Imams.Humsafar wrote:aqs, when you have nothing worthwhile to say and are unable to defend your masters, you bring the whole discussion down the problem of "personal ego"!
Is this what scares you the most, a abde who does not abuse so you cant rely on your age old rants. I have commented many a times on how you(progressives) could have become the much needed whistle blowers but for that you had to be in the community and not outside,as whatever you say will be dumped as nothing but coming from munafiq in the common paralance.All your mild and mealy-mouthed approach here hides your dishonesty in dealing with real issues.
and how do you intend to run dawat then, by democratically elected Jamaats, which i have already refuted as impractical on large scale in my previous posts to youYou ignore the illegitimacy of the Kohtar
I have not ignored the issue which started it all, but if i look superficially then it looks like you guys were just waiting for a reason to revolt and kothar some how played to your tunes on this issue(local body election)you ignore the illegimate demands it made (handpicking candiates for election)
have i? It was you who was responsible for all that happened, did you really went for talks or was it a show of streangth, and when people pelt stones on Syedna's house where he was staying, hurl abuses how do you expect normal people to react, both sides should have shown restraint and those ugly scenes could have been avoided.you justify the beating of women and children in Galiakot
You walk out on Dai and start open challenge to whole structure of dawat, draw battle lines, call for with us or against us, intimidate whoever was remaining in Udaipur with dire consequences then how will kothar react they will also call for loyalties to be proved. Kothar has relented and already Baraat is not in affect (officially), you tell me how far progs have walked to meet Kothar.you justify 30 years of inhuman treatment of reformists by way baraat
both were part of DB's culture and tradition,other invented religious controls like raza and misaaq
yes the face is changed but only for good, look around and see where people have reached under the leadership of Syedna(tus) all in all a positive changeyou ignore how the Kothar (which you blissfully call dawat) has changed the face and soul of the Bohra community in the last one generation.
dont allude yourself, if Syedna(tus) cant lose patience with you after what you have done then you better be patient.All you can think of is that this is the ego problem - of me and reformists. I beginning to lose patience with you.
local aamil asked people to support one candidate and in return things were turned into people against dawat or kothar as YOU blissfully like to say, this is how things were misled.In response to Insaf Saheb, your say, " ...i very well remember how people were mislead about things,...". Misled? Can you please elaborate.
yes it was a administrative issue and more of a local one to say the least, but you made it in something altogether different, Shz Qaid Joher BS got into after it went out of control of local aamil and he also tried to reconcile but the atmosphere was made such that almost the next Iranian revolution is going on where Shah will be uprooted.Then you say,"...and a administrative level issue was made to be a challenge to Dai himself in particular and dawat in general...." Administrative level? Dicating Bohras on their secular affair (local elections) is an admistrative issue for you? Qaid Joher, Dai's son was involved in this whole slimy affair. You mean to say the Dai did not know what his son was up to? The dawat is noting if not Dai and his illegitimate band of thieves.
dawat is not run because we have majority with us but because we are on Haq, Nuh had only 40 people with him against all, so no one can close or stop us, but definitely fitnatees will be uprooted, time is not far.You say,"you very well knew that if people will return your shop of reforms will close forever ...., " "Shop of reform". I like your choice of words. Since you seem to know so much, you should know that the "shop of reform" does not have much income and is perpetually in the red. Shall we talk about the "shop of dawat" instead? The dawat shopkeepers, your masters, are afraid of reformists because we have the power to put an end to their business. The Dawat (via Dai) wants us back we have the ability to kill their golden goose.
i dont know the finer details but to a large extend i am privy to this info. I can paint the future scenario where your delegation will meet Kothar's and when your leaders agree to go back in the fold few of you will throw chappals at them, and you accuse kothar of putting obstacles in the reconciliation.You say,"... so you made it sure that when Dai came to Udaipur and asked every one to return back you put hurdles in the path, " Really? Do you even know what exactly happened? Prior to Sayedna's famous visit to Udaipur in 1999, his grandson Taha bahisabeb took residence in udaipur for 2-3 years preparing the ground for what was to come. He was young, smart and wiley, and quietly succeeded in some measure in achieving his goal: to break up the reformists. So by the time his grand-daddy visited Udaipur the top leadership of the reformist were totally sold out. Ghulam Hussain was our most respected leader then. He hand his cohorts conducted a campaign among reformists - talking to us, visiting our homes, calling us on the phone - one person, one family at a time - and urging us to go back and take the misaaq. On the day when the Dai arrived, Ghulam Hussain and his cohorts held a public meeting of reformists and openly urged people to go back. You know what was the reaction of the people? They were furious. They chased these betrayers out of the meeting hall, and threw chappals at them. They could have been severly beaten if not for the intervention of other senior members.
No sir, it was not leaders who put hurdles in our path. It is we the people who gave the boot the leaders who betrayed the cause. This shows the commitment of our people. The leaders can be bought over. Not us.
dont deal with the local functionaries, put a open letter in media as you always do and invite kothar for a dialogue, and as far as i know talks are already going on at the local level.If the Dai is sincere about his call and really cares about his "farzaondo", here's what he should do. He should ask reformist to send a delegation for a dialogue. Let us sit together and hear each other out. let's make a beginning there and see how it goes. Issuing a blanket appeal, and expecting us that we will go back and deal with his local corrupt dawat functionaries is not the solution.
best of luck with your conference, please post the achievements discussed.Yes, we will continue to hold conferences and continue to repeat ourselves and continue to highlight the corruption and illegitimacy of mullahs who hide their crimes behind mask of dawat.
If you say anything against dai is a crime, that your family members are told to sever relation with you. Your spouse should get divorce, your can not attend the funeral of your loved once, you are just isolated. If Dai increase sabil 5 times you do not have rights to say any thing against it. You have only choice to pay or come out of community and leave your family. You have no rights to ask for accounts for your money. Most of the money is spent for the salams either to Amil, Shazadas or Sayedna. If you protest alone you are thrown out by goons and if you go collectively it is against the dawat nahej.aqs wrote:You walk out on Dai and start open challenge to whole structure of dawat, draw battle lines, call for with us or against us, intimidate whoever was remaining in Udaipur with dire consequences then how will kothar react they will also call for loyalties to be proved. Kothar has relented and already Baraat is not in affect (officially), you tell me how far progs have walked to meet Kothar.