State your belief

[ghulam muhammed]

But a Dawoodi Bohra is a Muslim, and it's a name of a community that believes in it's causes and has enetered the mithaaq. We need not call ourselves that, it's just something we've been called, and we've accepted it. It's just a name.

Dawoodi Bohra is a Muslim but still bohras address their muslim brothers as 'Olo Musalman chhe, hamein bohra chhe'. Also as per your logic if DBs are Muslims then their leader (dai) has to be a muslim, am I right ? Now if that is the case then how many times has the dai voiced his protests against the atrocities commited on Muslims, please refer the thread 'Is Dai a 'Spiritual leader', 'An Ambassador Peace' and answer the querries therein.

[Adam]

Dawoodi Bohra is a Muslim but still bohras address their muslim brothers as 'Olo Musalman chhe, hamein bohra chhe'. Also as per your logic if DBs are Muslims then their leader (dai) has to be a muslim, am I right ? Now if that is the case then how many times has the dai voiced his protests against the atrocities commited on Muslims, please refer the thread 'Is Dai a 'Spiritual leader', 'An Ambassador Peace' and answer the querries therein.

Yes, that 'Olo Musalman chhe, hamein bohra chhe' is a common habit said by many DBs.
The "terms" a Dawoodi Bohra is defined by are : Muslim - Mumin - Shia- Ismaili - Fatimi - Taiyibi - Dawoodi Bohra
When they refer to "Olo Musalman", in my opinion, they actually mean, those who consider themselves Muslims, but rightfully (according to our belief), we are.

We, as Dawoodi Bohra s consider ourselves true Muslims. This is OUR belief.

I know the above comment is going to make you'll all excited to pounce on.
You don't have to accept it if you don't want to!
No one is trying to convince you to believe so & at the same time, it doesn't matter what you think. (I say this very kindly).

The above should give some sort of an answer to your question, about Muslims and condemning etc.

I will add, that Syedna as his father have condemned many such situations such as the formation of Israel, Wahabism etc, publicly and privately, on many occasions. Even for the cartoons, there were a peaceful protests.

BUT, that's besides the point :

Whether you know about it or not, whether it was quoted in the paper or not, done or not.
If it needed to be done, it was done.
It really shouldn't concern you as he is not YOUR leader.
He is ours, and we are happy.

You live in free society, in a huge globalized world. Syedna s actions don't affect you at all, so you have nothing to worry about.
You appoint your own leader, and worry about whether he acts or doesn't act. If you don't like him, no one is stopping you go find another one!
Fair enough?

[anajmi]

When they refer to "Olo Musalman", in my opinion, they actually mean, those who consider themselves Muslims, but rightfully (according to our belief), we are.

Very well said. It is only according to your belief which have nothing to do with the Quran or the Sunnah. Thanks for clarifying that.

[Muslim First]

Adam
condemned many such situations such as the formation of Israel, Wahabism etc, publicly and privately,

And Wahabis must have shown them finger!!!

[ghulam muhammed]

I will add, that Syedna as his father have condemned many such situations such as the formation of Israel, Wahabism etc, publicly and privately, on many occasions.

Bro Adam,

What has been condemned privately (in secret sabaks) need not be revealed but atleast provide some documentary proof of his PUBLIC statements condemning the atrocities on Muslims.

[Adam]

I will add, that Syedna as his father have condemned many such situations such as the formation of Israel, Wahabism etc, publicly and privately, on many occasions.

Bro Adam,

What has been condemned privately (in secret sabaks) need not be revealed but atleast provide some documentary proof of his PUBLIC statements condemning the atrocities on Muslims.

Off my head :
Waaz in Mumbai 1431 - He condemned the act of Wahabis doing zulm on the Qabar of Rasulullah SAW and facing their back towards.
Waaz in Karabala 1423 - He warned the "leaders" that didn't allow Shias to act freely. (Possibly indicating Saddam Hussein)

This was for Dawoodi Bohras. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have attended it, it doesn't concern you.

Again, I'll repeat with little more detail :
Whether he did it or not, made it public or not, you really have no say in anything.
It really shouldn't concern you as SYEDNA is not YOUR leader.

Look at it this way (i'm supposing you're from India), the Dawoodi Bohra s that believe in Syedna are a tiny (in terms of numbers) community varying till about a million. Whereas there are over a Billion people in India.
You live in free society, in a huge globalized world.
Syedna's actions don't affect politics of a country in general, or day to day events.
Syedna s actions don't affect you at all, so you have nothing to worry about.

WHY IN GOD's NAME DO YOU CARE!?

You appoint your own leader, and worry about whether he acts or doesn't act. If you don't like him, no one is stopping you go find another one!
Fair enough?[/color]

[Muslim First]

Adam
Waaz in Mumbai 1431 - He condemned the act of Wahabis doing zulm on the Qabar of Rasulullah SAW and facing their back towards.

Really
Can you do Zulm on mound of dirt or bricks and stones constructed over it against sunna? Did he make this Waaz public?
Where does it say in Qor'an or sunnah that you can not show your back to kabar?

[Adam]

Adam
Waaz in Mumbai 1431 - He condemned the act of Wahabis doing zulm on the Qabar of Rasulullah SAW and facing their back towards.

Really
Can you do Zulm on mound of dirt or bricks and stones constructed over it against sunna? Did he make this Waaz public?
Where does it say in Qor'an or sunnah that you can not show your back to kabar?

That was an reply to gulammohameds "making statements in public" question.
The waaz was in Ashara, thus it was public.

Your comment is diverting is off that answer and current topic.

You can open a new thread and discuss your Wahabi ideology on graves etc.- there.

P.S - Dawoodi Bohras believe in Qabrs. If you don't agree with DB beliefs and ideologies, suite yourself.
BUT, since this is supposedly "DB" site.
You've come to the wrong place.

Now...... back to the question.
[/color]

[Muslim First]

Adam
You can open a new thread and discuss your Wahabi ideology on graves etc.- there.

Adam
Can you educate me how you do Zulm to Kabar?

[Adam]

Muslim First wrote:

[Adam]

Adam
You can open a new thread and discuss your Wahabi ideology on graves etc.- there.

Adam
Can you educate me how you do Zulm to Kabar?

Sorry, I wouldn't know how. Neither would any Dawoodi Bohra, Shia or Sunni for that matter.
Go ask you Wahabi Leaders/Friends, since they're the ones who did it.

Stop diverting
Back to the ABOVE question and thread.[/color]

[ghulam muhammed]

Off my head :

Waaz in Mumbai 1431 - He condemned the act of Wahabis doing zulm on the Qabar of Rasulullah SAW and facing their back towards.

Waaz in Karabala 1423 - He warned the "leaders" that didn't allow Shias to act freely. (Possibly indicating Saddam Hussein)

Do you understand the meaning of PUBLIC statements ? The waez is something which is attended by bohras only and so whatever he says in waez is the message that he wants to convey to his FOLLOWERS and not to the world, the waez recordings are never telecast on any televison channels or printed in newspapers. If he wants to convey any message to the world at large then he should make PUBLIC announcements preferably thru print media or TV, just like the way he splashes his photographs on every possible newspapers during his 100th birthday or his administration making PUBLIC announcements for Bhendi bazaar project or Saifee Hospital project.

It really shouldn't concern you as SYEDNA is not YOUR leader.

This is a sheer way to cop out. According to your logic if Obama does something wrong then the non-US nations and non-US residents should not question him because he is not their leader. If Modi butchers Muslims in Gujarat then non-gujaratis should not raise their voices because he is the leader of Gujarat and not Maharashtra/UP/Punjab. In the same manner if the 3 khalifas allegedly did something wrong then you have no right to question them because THEY ARE NOT YOUR LEADERS.

WHY IN GOD's NAME DO YOU CARE!?

Why in God's name should non americans care if Obama and Bush wages war against Iraq and Afghanistan, why in God's name should non gujaratis care if Modi butchers Muslims in gujarat and why in God's name should abdes care if non dawoodi bohra khalifas did something wrong ???

[Muslim First]

Adam
Sorry, I wouldn't know how. Neither would any Dawoodi Bohra, Shia or Sunni for that matter.
Go ask you Wahabi Leaders/Friends, since they're the ones who did it.

Adam, why would you make a statement if you can not explain it?
If you ask any wahabi that do you do Zulm on Kabar he would think you are nuts.

[Adam]

Adam, why would you make a statement if you can not explain it?

1. My "statement" (if that's what you'd like to call it) was in reply to gulammohammeds question. He wanted a reply
2. It was a rhetoric question, I know the answer, but right now that isn't the crux of this conversation and thread, and off the topic. So I don't want to divert this conversation. I said this before, if you want the answer to that, start a new thread. There will be a lot of discussion.

Right now, let's stick to the conversation.

[Adam]

Do you understand the meaning of PUBLIC statements ? The waez is something which is attended by bohras only and so whatever he says in waez is the message that he wants to convey to his FOLLOWERS and not to the world, the waez recordings are never telecast on any televison channels or printed in newspapers. If he wants to convey any message to the world at large then he should make PUBLIC announcements preferably thru print media or TV, just like the way he splashes his photographs on every possible newspapers during his 100th birthday or his administration making PUBLIC announcements for Bhendi bazaar project or Saifee Hospital project.

True
To some extent I do consider those Public statements, that's why I mentioned it. So I stick to that.
Just random Googling also had a statement condemning the Mumbai attacks. (again, that's besides the point).
Just for the sake of argument.
1. Syedna isn't a PUBLIC leader, or a Politician, he doesn't need to make anything public if he doesn't want to. His belief or stand point is his own business, and if he wants to make it known to his followers, that's his choice also.
2. You would agree that "Public Statements" really don't mean anything sometimes. Some People may "condemn" stuff the News, but really not care about it, or believe the complete opposite. But then again, if you are a Public person sometimes they have to. Syedna only represents his community, and doesn't need to.
3. Bhendi Bazaar project is being done on a PUBLIC level, it doesn't involve only the community in Bhendi Bazaar, thus deemed necessary.
4. 100th Birthday, is something to overjoyed about, and wanted to share it with the PUBLIC.
Inshallah, when you turn 100, you can paint the town red too. I doubt anyone will have an issue.

It really shouldn't concern you as SYEDNA is not YOUR leader.

This is a sheer way to cop out. According to your logic if Obama does something wrong then the non-US nations and non-US residents should not question him because he is not their leader. If Modi butchers Muslims in Gujarat then non-gujaratis should not raise their voices because he is the leader of Gujarat and not Maharashtra/UP/Punjab. In the same manner if the 3 khalifas allegedly did something wrong then you have no right to question them because THEY ARE NOT YOUR LEADERS.

WHY IN GOD's NAME DO YOU CARE!?

Why in God's name should non americans care if Obama and Bush wages war against Iraq and Afghanistan, why in God's name should non gujaratis care if Modi butchers Muslims in gujarat and why in God's name should abdes care if non dawoodi bohra khalifas did something wrong ???

Let me discuss to some extent :
All three statements aren't connected at ALL to the current situation with Syedna TUS, because all 3 are involved with PUBLIC POLITICAL figures, plus and each are different in their own way. So your deduction has its flaws.

Obama & Iraq :
PUBLIC & POLITICAL
American policies affect the whole world sentiments & economics.
His attack maybe considered an attack on Islam.
Being a "Muslim", having a beard, wearing a topi, makes it even more difficult for any practcing or non practicing "Muslim" with a "Muslim" to live or travel.

Thus it affects ME personally.

MODI:
PUBLIC & POLITICAL
It affects my community. (Many Bohras died and others suffered too)
It affects the security of Muslims in general, DBs being considered Muslims are also affected.

Thus it affects personally.

3 Khalifa s Vs Moulana Ali AS:
RELIGION, PUBLIC & POLITICAL
I care because the 3 of them unjustly suppressed the TRUE Leader, MY LEADER
Their actions were the cause of fithnat an hatred which will continue for the long term

Thus it affects ME personally.

SYEDNA TUS
Syedna is not a PUBLIC & POLITICAL figure.
He is the head of his community alone.
When I made the statement "Why should you care", i'm not talking about one particular issue with you Progs/Wahabis (Whoever else on this forum), i'm generalizing it for every tiny issue you guys make. (Thali, Wajebat, Sajda, Hunting, Modi, Nas, Salam, etc etc etc)

Since you are not a DB, you really aren't affected by anything.
If you are acting as a DB, you don't need to. Ignore everything the Dawat and Syedna TUS does, you don't have to pay anything, or do anything against your will.
Free to do as you will! It's a free world. Worry about the problems that affect you.

If his actions affect you directly, please say so. (I doubt things like Wajebaat affect you! So why do all you DB haters/progs really care!)
If it affects your family and friends guide them that they don't have to worry about it, they can leave and do their own thing. Free world again.

I (& any BohrA) genuinely don't care what the Mufti of Damascus, The Imam of the Mosque in Baroda, or the Sulaimany Bohra Dai says! I have nothing to gain from it or lose! It doesn't concern me.
Unless of course it affects me personally, or my belief or my community. Until then, I don't need to waste my time on them!

Rasulullah SAW states:
من حسن اسلام المرء تركه ما لا يعنيه
(The best character of a Muslim, is to ignore what doesn't concern him)


As stated my me before about Modi on the other thread, whether he has genuinely changed, only Allah knows and time will tell, for the time being, if he's simmered down, we can use it to our advantage :
http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 007#p85007
"...hopefully, by creating healthy ties with such a person, Inshallah may help Muslims in the future, time will tell. In MY opinion, if that doesn't work, and in fact Modi (or whoever for that matter) continues to cause harm, the PR policy will change."

I hope you appreciate the fact that I have taken out time to answer, (whether you agree with it or not), I did it.

Now you kindly answer this :
Why do YOU (and All Progs on this forum) care about this tiny community and its leaders daily affairs?
If YOU are personally affected, please write how.
If you have a Leader, who is it?
Since YOU feel YOUR "LEADER" should make public statements, please provide examples of YOUR LEADER, and HIS STATEMENTS.
[/color]

[Muslim First]

Adam
3 Khalifa s Vs Moulana Ali AS:
RELIGION, PUBLIC & POLITICAL
I care because the 3 of them unjustly suppressed the TRUE Leader, MY LEADER
Their actions were the cause of fithnat an hatred which will continue for the long term

Adam
This happened 1400 years ago. Majority of Muslims do not give s*&&% about it. Only Shias keep harping about it.

Fitnah. There was no established Shia for about 200 years after Prophet. Ali RA was a Khalifa of Ummah for six years.
So please find your Imam and make sure other so called Imams also acceopt him then we will talk about it.

Before we accept this business of Immamat, bring forward one Imam acceptable to all Shias.
What a useless debate. This says my Imam is correct, that says my Imam is correct.
Here is what majority of Muslims say,
There is no Imamat after Prophet. There is no clear cut command in Qur'an or Sunnah. What Shia say is GOL GOL (circular arguments).

[porus]

Adam,

You have displayed commendable command over knowledge and articulation about Dawoodi Bohras and I have admired your integrity and courtesy with which you debate the issues on this board. However, I am disturbed by what appears to be a thin wedge of descent into fanaticism and bigotry in your recent posts. I believe that your focus exclusively on your leader, right or wrong, is misplaced. Equally appropriate is the focus that Progressives place on the community and how the leader's sayings and actions affect it. There are historical precedents in circumscribing the authority of claimants to post-Muhammad leadership in Islam. Even the Fatimids were overthrown because, in the final analysis, people had 'enough of them'.

Let me summarize here what appears to be your personal position as expressed in your recent posts:

" I believe in 'My leader, right or wrong.'

The subtext is that my ‘religion’ or my ‘faith’ demands unquestioning obedience to my leader, no matter what he says or does. If I have any doubt about what he says or does, I can no longer consider myself as sharing the ‘religion’ or ‘faith’
I arrogate to myself the name ‘Dawoodi Bohra’ to apply only to those who share my ‘faith’, that is, unquestioning obedience to my leader. Those who do not believe like me are not ‘Dawoodi Bohras’ even if their parents, siblings, blood relatives or extended relatives happen to share my ‘faith’.

Amongst those people who, according to me, are no longer ‘Dawoodi Bohras’ are some who read the Quran and books which elucidate my ‘faith’. They use their own thinking to come to conclusions which may be at variance with what my leader says and does. These people are not be heard. We, ‘Dawoodi Bohras’ should not read the Quran or books elucidating our religion except in the manner approved by my leader.

Those former ‘Dawoodi Bohras’ who complain that my leader’s sayings and actions affect them because they are in familial relation with ‘Dawoodi Bohras’ are to be ignored. The fact that they believe their lives are affected by their different ‘thinking’ is their own fault and they have given up the right to make any comment about Dawoodi Bohras. Those amongst us who are true Dawoodi Bohras must think and do exactly as my leader thinks and does. Any deviation shows lack of faith.

I can tell you that we Dawoodi Bohras all think alike and we praise my leader unconditionally, we prostrate to him and offer him our body and soul no matter what. The so-called Progressives are not Dawoodi Bohras."

[SBM]

1. Syedna isn't a PUBLIC leader, or a Politician, he doesn't need to make anything public if he doesn't want to. His belief or stand point is his own business, and if he wants to make it known to his followers, that's his choice also.

If that is the case, then why meeting with all these political leaders like NM or BT and with his RAZA, contributing $ 250,000 to Bush Camp again(most of the donor to Bush reelection were Aamil, Turab BS and his entire family who oversees Dawat E Hadiyah USA) and if tell me that he did contribute with RAZA from Kothar then he should NOT be in charge of Dawat E Hadiyah USA

[ghulam muhammed]

To some extent I do consider those Public statements, that's why I mentioned it. So I stick to that.

According to you PUBLIC = BOHRAS, the rest are aliens. No wonder abdes live in fantasyland.

Syedna isn't a PUBLIC leader, or a Politician

By your logic PUBLIC=BOHRAS and you say the dai is not a PUBLIC leader hence he is not the leader of BOHRAS
He is also not a politician but doesnt miss an opprtunity to throw his weight around the same politicians. "Heads I Win Tails You Lose"

Sharukh Khan and Amitabh Bacchan are also not public leaders but still every word they say carries weight and at times also leads to controversies, Tatas and Amabanis too are not public leaders but still they be very careful whilst making public statements. Moreover people expect religious leaders to make public statements and specify their exact stand especially with regard to the mass genocides in Gujarat as their stand clarfies theirs and their followers stand on such issues. The dai's stand has made it crystal clear that bohras in general care two hoots for their co-muslim brothers.

[Adam]

@Muslim First

Adam
This happened 1400 years ago. Majority of Muslims do not give s*&&% about it. Only Shias keep harping about it.

That was in answer to ghulam muhammeds response. So keep up with the conversation, and understand it.

@oma

If that is the case, then why meeting with all these political leaders

Why does anyone meet anyone, including Politicians! Public Relations (PR). Work can only be done by meeting people. Why do you go to your grocery store? To get something in return.

@ghulam muhammed

By your logic PUBLIC=BOHRAS and you say the dai is not a PUBLIC leader hence he is not the leader of BOHRAS

Nice Algebra. But pretty immature if you ask me. And you know what i'm talking about
I meant Public, in terms that he was speaking in mass crowds, possibly relayed to all Bohra centers. Why was it Public, because everyone around can hear, even if someone were to pass by one of these centers, he could have easily heard the statements.

Sharukh Khan and Amitabh Bacchan are also not public leaders but still every word they say carries weight and at times also leads to controversies, Tatas and Amabanis too are not public leaders but still they be very careful whilst making public statements.

True! But since they aren't political figures, (they may have their own following), they aren't obliged to make any public statements. If they do, it's out of their own free will, when and if they choose they want to.
Syedna isn't a political figure, so he doesn't need to.

Moreover people expect religious leaders to make public statements and specify their exact stand especially with regard to the mass genocides in Gujarat as their stand clarfies theirs and their followers stand on such issues.

True, Syedna TUS did visit Ahmedabad after the riots, and made a statement to his followers. Ask anyone from Ahmedabad for the text.
Again, this is at the discretion of the Leader and what he deems necessary.

The dai's stand has made it crystal clear that bohras in general care two hoots for their co-muslim brothers.

That isn't true, my justification isn't going to change anything for you. Believe what you want.
But then again, why do you care!

Now ghulam muhammed (and all your progs), stop dodging this question :

Why do YOU (and All Progs on this forum) care about this tiny community and its leaders daily affairs?
If YOU are personally affected, please write how.
If you have a Leader, who is it?
Since YOU feel YOUR "LEADER" should make public statements, please provide examples of YOUR LEADER, and HIS STATEMENTS.

[Adam]

@Porus
I've also shown respect to your stance. Very few on this forum have the intelligence and maturity you have.

What you said seems to be true for all Dawoodi Bohras. (You're tone might have a slight tint of negativity, but i'll ignore it).
But Yes, I would agree.
These are the "rules" set by our Leader, and the leaders before him. This is a belief, a community. You are free to leave, do what you want if you don't agree.

I'm not asking anyone to agree or not (maybe sometimes I do).
But my grievance with the progs (and you) is : Why do you care about the slightest thing? You are not a part of this community, it doesn't concern you.
If indeed you're a humanitarian, i'm sure there more dire situations where you can help out. I'm sure a "thaali, or Sajda" doesn't really affect you. There are others in worse scenarios.

I'll repeat this :
Rasulullah SAW states:
من حسن اسلام المرء تركه ما لا يعنيه
(The best character of a Muslim, is to ignore what doesn't concern him)

Why do YOU (and All Progs on this forum) care about this tiny community and its leaders daily affairs?
If YOU are personally affected, please write how.
If you have a Leader, who is it?

[Humsafar]

Adam, this tiny community is ours too. We were born in this community and religion. This community is not anyone's father's property, and nobody has the right to tell us we do not belong here. In the context of this forum, most progs who write here are from inside the community - victims of your masters' greed and unIslamic behaviour. And those of us who are outside are not so by choice. We were ex-communicated - a totally unIslamic and cruel diktat of the Dai. We all - inside or outside - are affected personally. We reformist do not believe in leaders. Our demands are based on principles enshrined in the Quran, and honoured and preserved by our Bohra tradition. Leaders are not important, principles are. The "royal family" and the clerical mafia of which you seem to be a part are violating all Islamic, Bohra and humane principles. You think you can impress us with your ultimately useless knowledge of the minutiae of our faith, but so long as you use that knowledge to defend and justify the cruelty, corruption and high-handedness of your masters we will not be impressed. So please stop repeating the same questions on every thread - this is a sign of desperation. Your thin intellectual veneer may be wearing out.

[porus]

@Porus

Why do YOU (and All Progs on this forum) care about this tiny community and its leaders daily affairs?
If YOU are personally affected, please write how.
If you have a Leader, who is it?

Adam,

Are you familiar with John Donne's meditation:

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent,
.
.
any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. "

We are all involved in the community. I personally count more than 300 Dawoodi Bohras among my extended family. I believe that your view of the members of the community is extremely limited. You define a member only if he has devotion to a head of what increasingly looks like a cult. But the cult is limited to people who think like you. I believe that the vast majority of Dawoodi Bohras do not share your thinking and are quite moderate in their religious stance.

You keep asking who is my leader? I would ask that you define what you mean by a leader. A leader guides towards a common goal. If you wish to align with the goal, you may follow him. Sayedna is not a leader in that sense. Like I said, for most Bohras, he is a feature. They do not share his goals. Some, like you, do.

I choose leader with respect to a goal. It may be different person depending upon the goal. And I may choose none to follow.

With regard to what values a person holds, why do you need any leader at all? My own priority is that I look after my own and make contribution to make life comfortable for all. Does any one need a leader for that? All the people in the world do that regardless of any leader.

Cult heads identify actions that members must perform primarily as a display of devotion to the head. It is drummed into them that these actions are desirable and that they lead to some intangible, almost mythical, ends and rewards.

Some actions that you must perform are well known to all of us:

perform sajda to cult head and his family
consider family of the cult head infallible and give them and and his governors (aamils) money all the time
engage in ridiculous display of devotion by insisting on 'divine' nature of whatever ridiculous schemes the head drums up. The current tiffin carrying bohra dabbawalas is one example.

I like to point out the error of these ways to people I grew up with and with whom I share friendship. Any religious person would value friendship, But cult members cannot accept that unless the friendship involves devotion to the head of the cult. And they will attempt to wreck the friendship. And do not tell me that devotees of Sayedna do not engage in that type behavior.

Frankly, I think that your view is held by a minority of Bohras. I have tried to test the limits of criticism that Bohras would accept from me about cult-like behavior of some in the community. Most do not mind. Their regard and friendship for me appears to be more valuable to them than my criticism and with which they appear to concur.

[profastian]

@Porus

Why do YOU (and All Progs on this forum) care about this tiny community and its leaders daily affairs?
If YOU are personally affected, please write how.
If you have a Leader, who is it?

Adam,

Are you familiar with John Donne's meditation:

"No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent,
.
.
any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee. "

We are all involved in the community. I personally count more than 300 Dawoodi Bohras among my extended family. I believe that your view of the members of the community is extremely limited. You define a member only if he has devotion to a head of what increasingly looks like a cult. But the cult is limited to people who think like you. I believe that the vast majority of Dawoodi Bohras do not share your thinking and are quite moderate in their religious stance.

You keep asking who is my leader? I would ask that you define what you mean by a leader. A leader guides towards a common goal. If you wish to align with the goal, you may follow him. Sayedna is not a leader in that sense. Like I said, for most Bohras, he is a feature. They do not share his goals. Some, like you, do.

I choose leader with respect to a goal. It may be different person depending upon the goal. And I may choose none to follow.

With regard to what values a person holds, why do you need any leader at all? My own priority is that I look after my own and make contribution to make life comfortable for all. Does any one need a leader for that? All the people in the world do that regardless of any leader.

Cult heads identify actions that members must perform primarily as a display of devotion to the head. It is drummed into them that these actions are desirable and that they lead to some intangible, almost mythical, ends and rewards.

Some actions that you must perform are well known to all of us:

perform sajda to cult head and his family
consider family of the cult head infallible and give them and and his governors (aamils) money all the time
engage in ridiculous display of devotion by insisting on 'divine' nature of whatever ridiculous schemes the head drums up. The current tiffin carrying bohra dabbawalas is one example.

I like to point out the error of these ways to people I grew up with and with whom I share friendship. Any religious person would value friendship, But cult members cannot accept that unless the friendship involves devotion to the head of the cult. And they will attempt to wreck the friendship. And do not tell me that devotees of Sayedna do not engage in that type behavior.

Frankly, I think that your view is held by a minority of Bohras. I have tried to test the limits of criticism that Bohras would accept from me about cult-like behavior of some in the community. Most do not mind. Their regard and friendship for me appears to be more valuable to them than my criticism and with which they appear to concur.

You can easily apply all your logic to yourself. You think that our(abdes on the forum) view is narrow and most bohras think like you. How did you reach this conclusion? Surely by talking to the people in your extended family and friends. They are sure to comply with your views as these are the people who formed your view in the first place(don't be naive enough to think that you were intelligent enough to think outside of the environment you lived and formed your own view of the bohra faith). Now look at the big picture and simple stats. How many abdes? How many proggs? The numbers tell the story. You say that most bohras from within don't care enough for the DAI? How do you reach this conclusion? Look at any waez or any public gathering. Hundreds of thousands of bohras line up the streets and masjids, a night before just to catch a glimpse of the DAI? Is there any complusion for doing that? Are these acts of people who don't care enough about the DAI? Its time you proggies come out of your fish tank and navigate the waters of the ocean.

[Adam]

Porus,

I was expecting this sort of a "grey" (according to me) answer from you.

I believe that your view of the members of the community is extremely limited.

It isn't limited, I have a very large social network, and a diverse amount of Bohras. YOU on the other hand, probably only know the ones that share your "thought".

You define a member only if he has devotion to a head....

Yes, of course. The Dawoodi Bohra "belief" is connected to its head.
Dawoodi Bohra is a name given to a community that shares a common belief in the religion of Islam. It's NOT a "type" of people geographically or cultural, like "Indians" or "Gujratis" etc.
Dawoodi Bohras, today are like the Dawoodi Bohras of the past. All believe in the Panjatan, Imams and Dais. If they don't believe and follow these "leaders" they seize to continue to exist as DBs, no matter what they may say.
Belief & Faith is connected to the soul, a person who doesn't believe in the Prophet Muhammed SAW seizes to be a Muslim, no matter how much he acts to be one.
The word "DB" was just a name given to those people shared THIS belief during the time of Syedna Dawood RA. But that "belief" was the same even before Syedna Dawood RA, but the "name" given to the community was different.
A DB is NOT simple one who is born into it, he must continue to be it, or else, leave (spiritually).

I believe that the vast majority of Dawoodi Bohras do not share your thinking and are quite moderate in their religious stance.

So according to the above, there maybe "moderates" in terms of practice and commitment but if they seize to believe in the basic tenants, they seize to exist as Dawoodi Bohras. They all must share love, trust and belief for their leader.

With regard to what values a person holds, why do you need any leader at all? My own priority is that I look after my own and make contribution to make life comfortable for all. Does any one need a leader for that?

Yes, unfortunately (for you) you need a leader. Everyone does. Especially a Muslim.
If you could do it all on your own, why do you need Rasulullah SAW or any of the Prophets in the first place? They are all leaders, and total following is necessary.
Islam s practices require a leader. When you pray Namaaz, who leads your prayers? Who defines who should lead? Every will say I am more capable of leading, who decides if it were left to everyones decision? When you do roza (supposing you are practicing the moon sighting deed), who do you follow? when do you stop? Or do you single handedly handle everything from sighting etc? You must be following someone or something. If you are following the calendar, who made that? How do you know it's right? Why are you following it?

It all comes down to the need for authority. Every child is born empty of knowledge, he must learn from SOMEONE. If you say, "I don't need a leader" ie a teacher, a guide, someone to follow (Whatever you may call it), you will remain ignorant, you wont learn anything, the child will NOT learn on his own.
Why do you go to a specific doctor? You yourself don't know anything about medicine, so how do you know that THIS doctor is good? Maybe because someone referred you to him, thus you followed him, he guided you. AUTHORITY.

Basically, life cannot be lived alone, you need a guide and a lot of help from that guide and team work. Or else, EGO, walking alone, will not get you too far, worst, you'll get lost.

This is the core belief, once you come to accept it, all the other "minor" circumstances aren't that important.

I like to point out the error of these ways to people I grew up with and with whom I share friendship. Any religious person would value friendship, But cult members cannot accept that unless the friendship involves devotion to the head of the cult. And they will attempt to wreck the friendship. And do not tell me that devotees of Sayedna do not engage in that type behavior. Frankly, I think that your view is held by a minority of Bohras. I have tried to test the limits of criticism that Bohras would accept from me about cult-like behavior of some in the community. Most do not mind. Their regard and friendship for me appears to be more valuable to them than my criticism and with which they appear to concur.

Friendship is extremely important.
But when that friendship goes against my beliefs, or when that "friend" is an ENEMY of my belief, I will seize to continue to be friends with him.
Why? Because this is in the CORE belief of my belief in my leader. My Moula s enemy is MY enemy. No soft corners, whatsoever. If you don't follow this, you seize to exist a DB, it's also a oath in the Misaaq.
WHY? Because this is FATIMI - ISMAILI BELIEF :
You seem to have Love for the ahlul bayt AS, that's why I quote this from Imam Zain al Abedeen AS, Ramadan Dua. (Refer Sahifa Sajjadiyah), we pray every day in Ramadan :

، وَ أَنْ نُرَاجِعَ مَنْ هَاجَرَنَا، وَ أَنْ نُنْصِفَ مَنْ ظَلَمَنَا، وَ أَنْ نُسَالِمَ مَنْ عَادَانَا حَاشَى مَنْ عُودِيَ فِيكَ وَ لَكَ، فَإِنَّهُ الْعَدُوُّ الَّذِي لَا نُوَالِيهِ، وَ الْحِزْبُ الَّذِي لَا نُصَافِيهِ
(In Ramadan) Imam AS prays that those people whom have gone afar (maybe in terms of friendship also) we will bring them back, practice equality with those who have done Zulm. And make peace with those who hate/adavat us : -
*NOW* Above Imam clearly states the amazing characteristics of a good human and a good Muslim, forget about fights and hatred, and bring them back (this is all between Man & Man).. the bond of love (like Porus stated).... BUT look at the next sentence
حَاشَى مَنْ عُودِيَ فِيكَ وَ لَكَ، فَإِنَّهُ الْعَدُوُّ الَّذِي لَا نُوَالِيهِ، وَ الْحِزْبُ الَّذِي لَا نُصَافِيهِ
.......... (And make peace with those who hate us), but NEVER those who do ADAVAT of YOU. For he is MY ENEMEY and I WILL NEVER LOVE HIM. he is my "WAR"


You see porus, our beliefs of befriending those you don't believe in OUR LEADER, isn't fanaticism. It is our rules laid by OUR leaders. Anyone who doesn't act upon, cannot claim to be a part of that belief.

Again, what is YOUR belief? Pls state it clear.
I asked you this in a PM also. Which you refused to answer. This is in context with the LEADER/AUTHORITY I just discussed :

When I referred to the word "Imam", it was a question to YOU.
It also meant, WHO is your physical LEADER? Who do you ask if you don't understand something? You must be having someone to look up to, right?

When I mentioned about the Quran. I meant :
Surely, your belief is based on some interpretation of the Quran. Being such a learned person on this righteous path, if you could state who's interpretations/translations/tafseer/ (whatever you'd like to call it) of the Quran or Islam you follow.

You would have some base for the teachings you learnt. Some teacher would have thought you. That teacher would have been following a sect or belief, and depended on someone elses interpretation... What was/is it?



@profastian

Now look at the big picture and simple stats. How many abdes? How many proggs? The numbers tell the story.

Brother Profastian. I agree with all that you said.
Just the above sentence I feel is wrong, numbers don't matter. It's the truth that matters. All these proggies will now jump to this sentence and start diverting from the topic, don't give them the chance

[Adam]

Adam, this tiny community is ours too. We were born in this community and religion.

So what is this "Religion". Isn't it the Dawoodi Bohras religion?
What did a Dawoodi Bohra believe in, in the past? The Imam and Dai as their leader.

This community is not anyone's father's property, and nobody has the right to tell us we do not belong here. In the context of this forum, most progs who write here are from inside the community - victims of your masters' greed and unIslamic behaviour. And those of us who are outside are not so by choice. We were ex-communicated - a totally unIslamic and cruel diktat of the Dai. We all - inside or outside - are affected personally.

If the Dawoodi Bohra community, according to you is SO BAD, why do you want to be a part of it? It's a free world, relax. Do whatever you want!
You are not bounded politically or geographically.
If you wanted to follow any other sect, I really don't have a problem.
I create this issue, becuase I am a Dawoodi Bohra, and you people are insulting its name.

We reformist do not believe in leaders.

Yes you do, read my earlier post, to porus and others who have the same thought.

So please stop repeating the same questions on every thread - this is a sign of desperation. Your thin intellectual veneer may be wearing out.

I wouldn't say it's desparation. It's frustration that none of you Proggies can answer a simple quesition of Belief. What is your belief!

Belief is the core, everything else is secondary.

[Adam]

*** ABOVE
والحرب الذي لا نصافيه
or
والحزب الذي لا نصافيه

First means "WAR" and Second Means "GROUP". Both still mean the same, we will not sacrifice our beliefs for friendship.

[profastian]

@profastian

Now look at the big picture and simple stats. How many abdes? How many proggs? The numbers tell the story.

Brother Profastian. I agree with all that you said.
Just the above sentence I feel is wrong, numbers don't matter. It's the truth that matters. All these proggies will now jump to this sentence and start diverting from the topic, don't give them the chance
[/color]

I mentioned the numbers in the context of Porus claims that most Bohras think like them. If that was the case the numbers of proggies should have been much more than they are currently. So please please proggies do not jump on this sentence as a way out

[porus]

I mentioned the numbers in the context of Porus claims that most Bohras think like them.

No. Most Bohras do not think like me, God forbid. But those who think like Adam are in the minority.
You will find an Adam in every markaz and masjid. You may find hundreds and thousands surrounding Sayedna. But their beliefs and thoughts are not 'visible', and they are still a minority even if all among that crowd believe and think like Adam.

[Adam]

@PORUS.
Kindly reply to my ABOVE comment.
I even PMd you, just in case you missed it.
Let's forget about this minority / majority talk. (With brother profastians permission

And come back to what you (and all you proggies believe in, Leader, etc (Ref Above Comment)