After Burhan, what will happen

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush, AS

After having read that, you can claim that you have understood the Quran perfectly.

Where did I say that all my affort will make me understand Qura'n perfectly.

I have given you two additional resurces, use it or not its up to you.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush

if you can do your own interpretation of Arabic Qur'an then more power to you. May Allah reward you (I think you are not waiting for his reward since you are self sufficient).

For me who has not learned to speak Arabic, I I approach it thus (Say Al-Iklas)

I use The Alim software.

I listen to one of Qari to learn pronunciations.

Then I study various translations with notes.

Then I study word-for word translation published by DARUSSALAM. (I have hard copy)

Then I read Tafseer by Ibn-Kathir . (I have hard copy)

I also study Maudidi's Tafheem ul Quran. (I have hard copy)

I think that gives me enough knowledge to satisfy myself.

Wasalaam
.

[anajmi]

Has any of the above translated "Akhirat" as "The End"? If not, then they are all wahabi wahabi wahabi.

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
.
Br. Porush

...(I think you are not waiting for his reward since you are self sufficient).

Br, MF,

I agree that I am not waiting for his reward. But the reason you give that I am self-sufficient may not be quite accurate. What do you think?

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush

I do not know your situation as far as reward is concerned.

As far as I am concerned I was secular for long time until catastrophic illness. I needed something besides First Class Medical Treatment.
Alhamdo-Lillah, that something extra, I got it when I turned back to Allah SWT. My disease is still at bay and my physicians are wondering and saying that yes there is probably that element X

Take care, Brother. Nobody knows what is waiting on the other side. Be good and Inshah-Allah, good will happen to you.

Wasalaam
.

[anajmi]

I think you are not waiting for his reward because you don't believe in him. What do you think?

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Porush
AS
One side thought.

Surat Al-Ikhlas is foundation of Tauhid. Bohras should not even think about understanding it. Even if they read 100 translations it will not sink in their mind and heart.

You must clean your tongue, purge your heart and mind of any partners Bohras associate with Allah SWT.

When you stop shouting 'Ya Muhammad, Ya Ali, Ya Hasan and Hussain' and stop thinking about Dais, Imams, Murtuza Ali etc. etc. taking you to Jannah, then and then you will understand and Implement spirit of Al-Ikhlas.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

Br. MF,

I think that Surat al-Ikhlas is a powerful and succinct statement about Tauhid.

I would like you to say why you think it is the foundation of Tauhid.

Specific question you might consider is what does it mean when al-Ikhalas says "allahu ahad".

Does it mean that there is only one Allah? Like there is only one Sun in our Solar System.

Or does it mean that Allah cannot be concieved of having any attributes that ties him down to any portion of time and space? Or that he cannot be concieved of as having any physical or emotional attributes that we ascribe to humans?

In other words, can he be concieved of being anything that is a human creation, physical or imaginary?

Can he be experienced by humans?

Before you answer these questions, please ponder over the last ayat of the sura:

"lam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad"

And if one cannot ascribe human emotions to Allah, why does Quran talk in those terms?

I do not know about ordinary Bohras, but their scholars throughout history have asked penetrating questions about these issues.

[anajmi]

Does it mean that there is only one Allah? Like there is only one Sun in our Solar System.

Yes. That is exactly what it means. There is only one Allah. If you were to read the rest of the quran and understand it (which unfortunately you cannot) you will get the same message over and over again.

Or does it mean that Allah cannot be concieved of having any attributes that ties him down to any portion of time and space? In other words, can he be concieved of being anything that is a human creation, physical or imaginary?

No, that is not what that ayah means. These might be points that we can discuss, but that ayah does not say or mean anything of this sort. It is simply a figment of your imagination.

Or does it mean that Allah cannot be concieved of having any attributes that ties him down to any portion of time and space?

Which attributes are you specifically talking about?

Or that he cannot be concieved of as having any physical or emotional attributes that we ascribe to humans?

Read this translation (not the complete ayah)
002.255
YUSUFALI: Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep.
PICKTHAL: Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him.
SHAKIR: Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep;

Couple of physical human attributes have been mentioned specifically which cannot be attributed to God. If you can point out similar ayahs of the quran where human emotions are mentioned as not being attributes of Allah then we can discuss further. Please keep your imagination out of it.

Here is the last ayah of surah fateha

001.007
YUSUFALI: The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.
PICKTHAL: The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
SHAKIR: The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

Two humans emotions - grace and anger - have been attributed to God in his own words. Now an ordinary bohra might be fooled by you in believing that the the quran is contradicting itself by first saying

"allahu ahad" - no human emotions - and then saying "sirat al ladhina anamta alayhim gairil magdhube alayhim waladuaaleen" - two human emotions -. But "allahu ahad" does not mean no human emotions, as explained above.

Those bohra scholars aren't too smart.

In other words, can he be concieved of being anything that is a human creation, physical or imaginary?

Not sure what you mean, but human emotions like grace or anger or any other human emotion for that matter, are not human creations. These are gifts from God.

Can he be experienced by humans?

According to you, what kind of experience would a human need to have to be able to say that he has experienced God?

Coming to the last ayah of ikhlas

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him.

Hilali
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."

And then we have porus' translation

"There is nothing, no one like him "

I am not sure where it says that human like emotions cannot be ascribed to Allah. If there is such a translation please let me know.

If we find a human with 3 heads and 7 legs, then we won't have anything else like him either. Does it mean that it won't have the emotions that one headed humans have?

As I said before, those bohra scholars aren't too smart.

[porus]

anajmi,

I would like MF to respond to my posts.

Others may be interested in your posts about Quran and may engage in discussion with you.

I am not interested in anything you have to say about Quran or my translation.

[Al Zulfiqar]

no upheaval will happen as u imagine, no rebellions or breakups. everything will go on merrily as it is going on now, perhaps even more tyrannically.

u see there is too much at stake for these parasites, in their own larger interests they will unite to continue their loot and plunder. whatever internecine quarrels in the kothar over the power sharing will remain under wraps as it is now...

sorry for this pessimistic view, but they are not stupid enough to kill the goose which lays golden eggs!

[anajmi]

porus,

I actually don't care if you are interested in my posts or not. I am very much interested in your translation of the quran, for obvious reasons, and will continue to respond whenever I can. If you don't want me to respond to your posts, start communicating with people via their personal emails.

[Muslim First]

Br. Porush

AS

Please do not ask me to produce original Translation or original thoughts. I read different opinions and come to understanding.

On discussion of Al-Ikhals is concerned, note by Yusuf Ali & M.Asad might help. Also I am posting portion of Sayyid Qutb’s tafseer.

Note by Yusuf Ali

6296 The nature of Allah is here indicated to us in a few words, such as we can understand. The qualities of Allah are described in numerous places elsewhere, e.g., in lix. 22-24, lxii. 1, and ii. 255. Here we are specially taught to avoid the pitfalls into which men and nations have fallen at various times in trying to understand Allah. The first thing we have to note is that His nature is so sublime, so far beyond our limited conceptions, that the best way in which we can realize Him is to feel that He is a Personality, "He", and not a mere abstract conception of philosophy. He is near us; He cares for us; we owe our existence to Him. Secondly, He is the One and Only God, the Only One to Whom worship is due; all other things or beings that we can think of are His creatures and in no way comparable to Him. Thirdly, He is Eternal, without beginning or end, Absolute, not limited by time or place or circumstance, the Reality. Fourthly, we must not think of Him as having a son or a father, for that would be to import animal qualities into our conception of Him. Fifthly, He is not like any other person or thing that we know or can imagine: His qualities and nature are unique. (112.1)

6297 This is to negative the idea of Polytheism, a system in which people believe in gods many and lords many. Such a system is opposed to our truest and profoundest conceptions of life. For Unity in Design, Unity in the fundamental facts of existence, proclaim the Unity of the Maker. (112.1)

6298 Samad is difficult to translate by one word. I have used two, "Eternal" and "Absolute". The latter implies: (1) that absolute existence can only be predicated of Him; all other existence is temporal or conditional; (2) that He is dependent on no person or things, but all persons or things are dependent on Him, thus negativing the idea of gods and goddesses who ate and drank, wrangled and plotted, depended on the gifts of worshippers, etc. (112.2)

6299 This is to negative the Christian idea of the godhead, "the Father", "the only-begotten Son" etc. (112.3)

6300 This sums up the whole argument and warns us especially against Anthropomorphism, the tendency to conceive of Allah after our own pattern, an insidious tendency that creeps in at all times and among all peoples. (112.4)

Notes by M. ASAD

1. This rendering gives no more than approximate meaning of the term as-samad, which occurs in the Qur’an only once, and is applied, to God alone. It comprises the concepts of Primary Cause and eternal, independent Being, combined with the idea that everything existing or conceivable goes back to him as its source and is, therefore, dependent on Him for its beginning as well as its continued existence.

2. The fact that God is one and unique in every respect, without beginning and without end, has its logical correlate in the statement that “there is that could be compared with Him”- thus precluding any possibility of describing or defining Him. Consequently, the quality of His being is beyond the range of human comprehension or imagination: which also explains why any attempt at “depicting” God by means of figurative representation or even abstract symbols must be qualified as blasphemous denial of the truth.

There are four and half pages of tafseer on this sura by Sayyid Qutb “IN THE SHADE OF QURAN (Volume 30)” part of it is as below:

“He is Allah, the one and only God,” means that He is “the Eternal and the Absolute,” and that, “ He begot none nor was He begotten,” and that “there is none comparable to Him.” But Qur’an states it all in detail for more emphasis and clarification.

“The Eternal and the Absolute,” means the supplicated Lord without whose permission nothing is decided. Allah is the One Lord. He is One in His divinity and all the other beings are but His servants. To Him and Him alone are addressed all supplications. He only decides everything independently. No one decides with Him. And since He is the one and only God this quality is already His.

“He begot none nor was He begotten,” means that the reality of Allah is deep-rooted, permanent and everlasting. No changeable circumstances affect it. Its quality is absolute perfection at all times. Birth is descent and multiplication and implies a developed being after incompleteness or nothingness. It requires espousal, which is based on similarity of being and structure. All this is utterly impossible in the case of Allah. So quality of “one” includes renouncement of a father and a son.

“There is none comparable to Him.” Means that no one resembles Him in anything or is equivalent to Him in any respect, either in the reality of being, or in the fact that He is only effective power, or in any of His qualities or attributes. This is implied in the statement of His being “One” made in the first verse, but it is repeated thus to confirm and elaborate on the fact. It is renunciation of two-god belief which implies that Allah is the God of Good while Evil has its god who-as belief goes- is in opposition to Allah, spoils His good deeds and propagates evil on earth.

Wasalaam and have a prayerful weekend
.

[porus]

Br MF,

Thank you for your response.

I am certain that you are capable of producing original thoughts.

The more you dig deep into Tawheed, you will find commentators agree that Allah cannot be concieved in human terms.

However, you may have missed a question I asked earlier. If Allah cannot have human attributes, why does Quran talk of him in human attributes?

Yusufali gives a hint that it is the best we can do in the circumstances. I agree to the extent that you will not change your mind if you do not take advantage of developments in commentary since his time.

Another hint, given by highly esteemed commentators, is that Quran is mostly allegorical and its batin and taawil has to be extracted by devotion and study.

I will not have anything to add to this for now.

[anajmi]

However, you may have missed a question I asked earlier. If Allah cannot have human attributes, why does Quran talk of him in human attributes?

I asked a question regarding those attributes. Which human attributes are you specifically talking about?

Are you talking about human attributes like getting tired, wanting to sleep, taking a leak or a dump or are you talking about attributes like love, emotion and anger?

Where does the quran say, in which ayah, that Allah does not have any human attributes? As explained before "allahu ahad" does not mean no human attributes.

Yusufali gives a hint that it is the best we can do in the circumstances. I agree to the extent that you will not change your mind if you do not take advantage of developments in commentary since his time.

What developments in commentary? Developments that translate "Akhirat" as "The End"?

Another hint, given by highly esteemed commentators, is that Quran is mostly allegorical and its batin and taawil has to be extracted by devotion and study.

Which highly esteemed scholars? You? Can you give us some links?

You should stop reading these highly esteemed scholars because your posts are beginning to reflect their understanding of the quran. Allegorical, batin and taawil all seem to be a part of your posts. You try to make things as un-understandable as possible.

Here is an example of allegorical, batin and taawil extracted by your devotion and study -

"allahu ahad" - means - does it mean that Allah cannot be concieved of having any attributes that ties him down to any portion of time and space? Or that he cannot be concieved of as having any physical or emotional attributes that we ascribe to humans?

And Akhirat means - "The End"

I guess you can have different flavours or allegorical, batin and taawil, depending upon the day of the week or your mood.

There is a reason why you do not want to discuss the quran with me and that is that you have no answers to my questions. You mislead people with your lies about the quran.

[porus]

It is unfortunate that this arrogant and bigoted fanatic has developed a fetish for porus-bashing. No matter what I post, he has an infallible urge to respond with contempt.

Expect another insult-loaded gem from him responding to this post.

I am well aware of what al-akhirat is supposed to mean for Muslims. And I have consulted dictionaries to confirm that it is translated as ‘hereafter’. So much for just using the dictionary for translation, as our resident fanatic claims I do.

This is what I wrote earlier:

2:4 (Devotees) who have faith in what has been sent to you and in what has been sent down before you, and are certain of aakhirat (the end).

‘Aakhirat’ does not mean ‘afterlife’ or ‘hereafter’. It simply means ‘The End”. You can put any interpretation on it as you like. Like gardens under which rivers flow, a wahhabi paradise.

In my translation, I left ‘aakhirat’ un-translated but put ‘the end’ in parenthesis. Later, I said that you can put any interpretation on it that you like.

I do not expect people to agree with everything I write, but I welcome a reasoned response, not a knee-jerk response filled with arrogance and contempt.

The reason why I changed it to “The End”.

In 2:4 two words are used. 'Yuminoona' and 'Yuqinoona'. I agree with esteemed commentators, who must remain nameless (because the fanatic will insult them too. They include the greatest of Shia Imams), that every word in Quran is placed there because no other would do. (I will elaborate on this if any one, except the arrogant fanatic, is interested).

Sura 102 uses the word ‘yaqeen’ in the sense that you cannot be ‘certain’ until you are dead. So, how can you be ‘certain’ of ‘hereafter’ before your death? The only thing you can be certain of is that you will die. That is your end. How do we know 102 is talking about ‘hereafter’. It says so in the last ayat of the sura,

I also wrote the following:

In the ayats 2:3 and 2:4, I have translated ‘yuminoona’ as ‘those who have faith”, not as “those who believe”. Although used interchangebly, Faith is much stronger word than Belief. This distinction is clarified in ayat 49:14. Belief can be merely a word statement. Faith is belief imbued with emotion at the gut level.

According to surat 102 and ayat 49:14, there are three stages of ‘belief’.

1. Acceptance
2. Faith
3. Certainty.

While ayat sura 102 declares impossibility of certainty, the final stage, until death, ayat 49:14 talks about two earlier stages.

Stage 1 is acceptance. It accords with verbal assertion of belief in and submission to Allah. Stage 2 is when acceptance becomes faith. This was explained to Arabs by the Prophet according to the ayat 49:14.

So, ‘hereafter’ is an interpretation which carries with it a baggage of your views about what ‘hereafter’ could be. Like hell, heaven etc. However, you cannot be certain of that according to surat 102. Hence, according to 2:4, ‘wa bil-akhirati hum yuqinoon’ means ‘they have certainty about akhirat’, but according to 102, you cannot be certain of it until you are dead. So akhirat must be understood to mean ‘the end’, maybe your end of which everyone is certain.

One more thing that our arrogant and bigoted fanatic harps about even though he has no knowledge of Arabic to write home about:

Al-Ikhals ayat 1 says “qul, huwa allahu ahad”

Qul, means ‘say’
Huwa means ‘he (is) ‘. It is the subject of the sentence. ‘In Arabic there is no word for ‘is’. It is implied.
“Allahu ahad’” is the predicate.

In this sense, ahad is an adjective of Allah, its description.

Most translators treat this differently.

They say both huwa and allah is subject and ahad is predicate. I subscribe to the former view. Ahad is an adjective and decribes Allah.

Therefore:

He is one, singular, undifferentiated, unique Allah.

By the way the arrogant and bigoted fanatic should understand that the reason I do not wish to discuss Quran with him is that, in addition to being insulting, he misrepresents my posts and ascribes opinions to me which are not mine.

[seeker110]

Br. Porus
Anajmi has always used vinegar to attract flies,he is like a dog that is in my neighbourhood.No matter how badly I treat him he doesnt change his habits.He can not think for himself unless he checks with the Quran or hadis or what sahabis said.All his arguments are not his own understanding but somebody else's.When will this fanatic learn to respect others point of view is a wishful mystry.
Wait he will tell me where I am going after my death, but doesnt know what I will do the rest of the day.He can see so far away in future except he cant see his own behavior to other fellow muslims.
I am usaually nice to the Javoha witness lady that comes to my door,but always say to her I am not interested.Next week some one else shows up and the same reply.To me he is the Javoha witness lady.Anajme talk to people,dont bark at them.God loves us the same,as he loves you.

[humane]

Bro Seeker,

You yourself are violating your own statement.

Bigotry is yours as you don't respect ANAJMI's views and expect him to respect yours. How come?

Though I am not an ANAJMI fan but I admire his spirit and zest.

[porus]

I suspect that you will not find much to admire in the 'spirit and zest' of an arrogant and bigoted fanatic.

[anajmi]

porus,

I do not expect people to agree with everything I write, but I welcome a reasoned response, not a knee-jerk response filled with arrogance and contempt.

What according to you is a reasoned response? if a resoned response is something similar to,

It is unfortunate that this arrogant and bigoted fanatic has developed a fetish for porus-bashing. No matter what I post, he has an infallible urge to respond with contempt.

, I am certain my responses have been far more reasoned.

Expect another insult-loaded gem from him responding to this post.

In this case you win. I can in no way better you in insult-loaded gems.

Now coming to the real response

In my translation, I left ‘aakhirat’ un-translated but put ‘the end’ in parenthesis. Later, I said that you can put any interpretation on it that you like.

porus, you might think everyone on this board is an idiot like the orthos but they are not. You didn't say that you can put any interpretation you like. What you said was what contempt is defined as. for eg - saying this "Like gardens under which rivers flow, a wahhabi paradise.". This is making fun of the interpretation of "Akhirat" because it is different from your interpretation - "The End".

Shouting your head off isn't going to get you the leverage you think it might.

In 2:4 two words are used. 'Yuminoona' and 'Yuqinoona'. I agree with esteemed commentators, who must remain nameless (because the fanatic will insult them too. They include the greatest of Shia Imams), that every word in Quran is placed there because no other would do. (I will elaborate on this if any one, except the arrogant fanatic, is interested).

I don't think anyone other than the arrogant fanatic is actually interested in anything you have to say about the quran. Maybe accty is, seriously. Remember "forum heaven"??

Besides, why do you agree with these esteemed commentators? Do you agree with them when they say that Allah is God and the Prophet is his messenger who received the message via the angel Gibraeel? Who are you trying to fool?

Now 102 doesn't create uncertaintly about Akhirat. It just creates uncertainty about where you'd be in Akhirat. If you knew that for you is hell fire (as mentioned in the next ayah) you wouldn't be engaged in mutual rivalry. Go read it again.

It is amazing how people like yourself pickup these ayahs to distort the meaning of the quran when the message of the quran is crystal clear.

He is one, singular, undifferentiated, unique Allah.

Wouldn't you agree that every human is unique from every other human? His voice, his fingerprints and even then they are all the same right? Can we say that every human is one, singular, undifferentiated and unique human? Undifferentiated as in his hand and legs are attached to his body at all times. If they are separated then he will be classified as differentiated.

One more thing that our arrogant and bigoted fanatic harps about even though he has no knowledge of Arabic to write home about:

Damn it porus. The fact that I don't know Arabic was supposed to be a secret between us. Otherwise I will tell everybody that you once told me that it is impossible to understand the quran and hence you actually just pretend to have understood it.

[anajmi]

Now 102 doesn't create uncertaintly about Akhirat. It just creates uncertainty about where you'd be in Akhirat. If you knew that for you is hell fire (as mentioned in the next ayah) you wouldn't be engaged in mutual rivalry. Go read it again.

Just want to clarify what I wanted to say over here. Our esteemed scholars have created so much confusion that it needs a lot of explanation.

People who have faith, for them heaven and hell fire is a certainty. For those who don't have faith, like porus, for them the Akhirat is uncertain. So they will wait till death to figure it out. But as per the quran and the prophet it will be too late by the time you die. So it isn't the quran that creates this uncertaintly it's the faith or lack thereof that creates this uncertainty.

[anajmi]

seeker,

I didn't know you treated your neighbourhood dogs badly. Is that what your own understanding has led you to do? If I were you I'd stop listening to your own understanding cause today it's dogs, tomorrow it might turn to cats and rats. Eesshh. Get away from me you freak.

[seeker110]

Anajmi the fanatic freak,you would do the same to the dog if he sat on your flower bed or dug holes in the grass.I didnt think you would be friend with the dogs.they are pretty dirty according to you know the rest,some body somewhere long long time ago said it so.

[anajmi]

So instead of building a fence around your flower bed or calling the local authorities, you beat the dog up? Did you know that you could be reported to the SPCA? I don't like dogs either but I am not cruel enough to beat them up cause they destroyed a flower bed. Did you know that the prophet prohibited Muslims from being cruel to animals. It is obvious that your own thinking and understanding has turned you into an animal beater.

[porus]

Originally posted by anajmi:
People who have faith, for them heaven and hell fire is a certainty. For those who don't have faith, like porus, for them the Akhirat is uncertain. So they will wait till death to figure it out. But as per the quran and the prophet it will be too late by the time you die. So it isn't the quran that creates this uncertaintly it's the faith or lack thereof that creates this uncertainty.

These are idiotic musings of a fanatic.

Did I write that Quran creates uncertainty about 'akhirat'? See how the fanatic puts words in my mouth!

I explained that faith and certainty are stages of belief. If you are certain, then you do not need faith. You know. Faith implies uncertainty.

I am not here talking about my faith. Quran says that it is a guide for those who are certain of 'akhirat'. What akhirat means to you is your own affair. It can be a physical Wahhabi paradise in which there are gardens under which rivers flow. Some may follow the taawil of what Quran indicates by these gardens and derive another meaning. Same with ever-lasting fire. Or it may be something else altogether. You will not know it in this lifetime.

102 implies for me that the certainty of the 'day of judgement' will be yours after you die. Meanwhile you will have to be content with faith, a lesser state of certainty.

[jamanpasand]

Anajmi he is like a dog that is in my neighbourhood.No matter how badly I treat him he doesnt change his habits


This is an understatement. Atleast dogs have some
postive qualities. This guy is a piece of shit from Wahabis dustbin.

[anajmi]

Faith implies uncertainty.

Idiotic musings you say. Next time your wife or your daughter tells you - "Have faith in me darling" or "Have faith in me dad", you know what to expect.

Your explanation is simply based upon your lack of understanding of the quran. You agree that you haven't understood the quran right? Or are you willing to withdraw that statement of yours?

Faith does not imply uncertainty. Lack of faith implies uncertainty. If faith implied uncertainty what would lack of faith imply? This is similar to how Lao Tzu talks about the Tao that cannot be talked about.

You've got your basics screwed up. Understanding the quran is going to be quite an uphill task for you.

[porus]

Another idiotic gem from a knee-jerk fanatic:

If you have five fingers on your right hand, are you certain that you have them or do you have faith that you have them?

On the other hand, are you certain that you will go to heaven or do you have faith that you will?

[porus]

Understanding the Quran is an uphill task for everyone except the fanatic, who understands all of it so perfectly that he, with absolute authority and certainty, tells that porus does not understand the Quran, lies about the Quran, misleads others about the Quran, and does not want others to read or understand the Quran.

I think I will let this fanatic rant on!

[Al Zulfiqar]

what i have observed here, is that every new topic deviates from its original intent and eventually degenerates into a slanging match between porus and anajmi, each constantly trying to outdo the other and indulging in one-upmanship...

i bow my head to your erudition and your knowledge of the quran, your persistence and your single-minded determination in trying to win your endless arguments, but could you please take this elsewhere? maybe to an open maidan or to the speakers corner in hyde park? its becoming too tedious for us other members to have u guys constantly at each others throats and unloading yr personal animosity and vendetta onto each and every topic!!

you guys are like those unwelcome pigeons who keep dropping their sh*t indiscriminately on every nook and cranny that they can find....please spare us, please!

why dont u start a seperate topic here on the interpretation of the quran or whatever u want to call it and indulge in your endless bickering over there? then atleast we can be spared your unending and unseemly polemics and rhetoric. the day of qayamat will have come and gone, all the souls will ostensibly have been divided into heaven and hell, but you both will still be arguing in a private purgatory of your own

you both remind me of the greek philosophers (great minds all)who had this penchant for unending debates and infinite analysis, a habit which the greeks still have today and look where it's landed them!