Satanic Versus - Question to Mr. Engineer

[anajmi]

As an example, I was in India the beginning of this year in Gujarat and I was surprised to see a lot more bearded fellows with the white muslim dress than I had about 3 years earlier.

The few mosques that I went to were full during every prayer and not just on fridays. Of course, friday does bring out more believers to the mosque.

And all this a couple of years after the muslims were butchered like cattle in gujarat.

[Humsafar]

Anajmi,

You never lose your sense of fun, and that's what I like about you - despite yourself.

By "outdated" I meant those aspects of the Quran - and sharia law - that prescribe cutting off limbs, stoning to death, killing of unbelievers, jihad, beating of wives, polygamy, lowly status of women, confining them inside the home etc. etc. They do not accord with the human rights of our age.

As for rituals like salat, Haj etc. they are a continuation of pre-Islamic tribal culture. Their “outdatednessâ€

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Your response was typical and expected.

As far as Bush and my God's are concerned, your knowledge of religion isn't mature enough to understand the difference.

As far as aspects of shariah law being outdated are concerned, who decided that? You?

As far as the "rituals" are concerned, again your knowledge of religion isn't mature enough to understand that the pre-Islamic rituals are nowhere near the same as Islamic "rituals". But considering your sources for Islamic knowledge, that can be forgiven.

[anajmi]

Besides, if you have a problem with your limbs getting chopped of, maybe you should not be committing those crimes.

[accountability]

Anajmi Brother: my question was easy, and you replied partially. It is true non muslims, and muslims alike have studied Quran and Sunnah. But it is also true that the points that scrutiny raised were either never answered by any muslim scholar or partially answered. Withstanding the criticism means, that it was criticized and then countered by more logical and powerful argument. That is not the case. Faith as it is, may never make sense. So is the case with many other things in life. My wife is a stauch bohra. But beside that she is a wonderful humane being. whenever we have arguments, she says, Look if you try to find reason in all this, you may not find it, faith is blind. either you believe it or not. then my questions is: why should faith be blind, not able to withsatand the logic, have no reasoning. Yet to be worshipped and defended at the cost of life itself. Isalm as well as all other religions are based on heresay. Do not dismiss me summarily. Heresay means to repeat the same conversation without verification. All the apostles and then their follower repeat the same sayings without verification. There is no evidence that Jesus existed physically, nobody never saw him. Yet more than 2 billions christians believe in biblical teachings. The events of Karbala, are narrated after 100 years, that too in Iran, but millions of shias including bohras believe in it so much that they sometimes bleed to death by beating with whatever. All narrations are vague, exept in tibri, there is no mention in any of other. Yet shias and bohras alike will never admit that the authencity is in doubt. most of them would even not know what actually happened. but just saying in raised voice ya hussain, they will start beating themselves. it is very complex psychological problem. so are all the religions. in your previous post, you exampled a family being attacked by dogs, and one part being spectator, without doing anything. my question was, were you (you means all who takes it upon themselves to defend the religion) asked by Allah to defend his religion. in response you gave the above example. if you read your post again, as an inteligent and educated person, you will atleast smile. Your example also examplifies the response(s) that are, and were given in response to logical and historical criticism against religion(s). I do believe in Allah, and I practice Islam as my religion. I do pray, fast etc. I am ready to admit, that i am not able to find the logic, that why should i face kaaba, a square of walls with stones, which was demolished several times in history and then rebuilt, and perform the praying as i was taught. I do that atleast three times a day. but i do wonder, that whatever i am saying in arabic, why cant i say in urdu or english, just sitting, why it had to be at specific times, not anytime, as we believe that God is omni present, what difference would it make if i offer my prayers at 9 oclock every night. God as he knows the heart (not mind) will know that i am praying, and i mean it. well i did not find answers. so i decided to keep doing till i find the answer. The complexity of the religion(s) has to be solved, if we were ever to take a quantum leap into future. faith as it now stands at the cross of history. you admit it or not, that is the case, as science progresses, the compexity and un-inevitability of religion will become more obvious. the religion(s) will have to go through the logical transformation. may be this is how god intended the religion to be. he wants us to find out the truth. in previous posts, you said, when god says heart, he does not mean it, rather he is symbolically using it, like broken heart, but for everything else, you want us to take it in its real context, and not the peripheral one, you take chopping off hand, as hand being chopped off, beheading, stoning to death, as they are described. you are not ready to read this in a broader context, and that he may mean to convery message with emphasis. Religious fanaticism emerges and emanates from different psychy and usually it is a safe heaven or refuge to conceal some hidden emotional or deprivational cavaties. Religion sometimes become another form of scizophernia. The revelations are not so divine, but just illusory thoughtfulness.

[accountability]

my apologies i have no clue, why it posted four times.

[anajmi]

accountability,

What can I say, if you think breaking of a heart and chopping off of a hand is the same thing(symbolic) then I guess I will have to go back to school.

And if you think it hasn't withstood scrutiny, you are welcome to become a non-believer.

[anajmi]

Besides, since you doubt what you believe in, you already are a non-believer.

Let me explain the issue of prayer times. Why do you have breakfast in the morning? lunch in the afternoon and dinner at night? Why can't you have dinner in the morning?

Why do you have to sleep in pajamas, why can't you sleep in a suit.

These are perfectly legitimate questions, but your first response will be that anajmi is stupid.

So forgive me for my response.

Anyway, the more important prayer in Islam is praying in a congregation. So it is quite obvious that prayers start at a particular time. I mean this is so basic a child should know. Even in a theatre the movie shows have particular start times. Of course if you are watching a movie at home then you can start it at any time, but the entertainment value reduces. You can pray at any time at home, the reward reduces.

And then you talk about Jesus christ and nobody having seen him, which is again a stupid question, I think there is no physical evidence of any particular person having existed 2000 years ago, does that mean nobody existed then? Besides the existence of Jesus christ has not been disputed by non-faith historians (cause that is the standard that you seem to be insisting on) only his status as a prophet or a son of god has been.

I am too tired to answer the rest. You need to get in touch with an alim who is not bohri cause he will probably throw you out of the mosque.

[anajmi]

If you are geniuinely interested in answers for the questions that you have raised and don't just want to raise them for the sake of argument, then I would recommend you read

Bahisti Zewar (Heavenly Ornaments) by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi translated to English by Maulana Mohamed Mohamedy Volumes 1 and 2

and Meaning and Message of the Traditions
by Maulana Mohammed Manzoor Nomani translated to English by Mohammed Asif Kidwai available in 5 volumes.

Make sure you hide them from your wife though.

[anajmi]

Now that I've had my morning dinner, I can post a little bit more to answer your questions.

Surah 2:115

To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing.

Surah 2:142-144

The fools among the people will say: "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say: To Allah belong both east and West: He guideth whom He will to a Way that is straight.

Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens): now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

Forget about every other reason to face mecca. The order of Allah is the only one that matters. He commands us to face that direction no matter where we are. Why? Don't know, don't care. I believe in quran to be the word of God so I obey it. If you don't believe in it to be the word of God then why bother either way?

Besides in a mosque if everybody is facing the same direction, more people can fit in.

[Hussain]

Porous
OK if its plain discussion , but there are some things that are just beyond discussion .
I mean here we are trying to put forward our points of view regarding Kothar and Dai , me for and you against , now that is debateable , cos its between muslims , from one to another , more like shia sunni , or dawoodi progressive.

But when you start questioning the very basics of those beliefs like the Prophet and what he did and why he did that , there is no more discussion.

Cos no point in discussing Islam with a non muslim .
Which is what Humsafar is , I mean Allah have pity on the soul who is actually travelling with that guy/gal on a long journey , what a load of BS.
Doesn't he knopw a simple fact , Islam is not something new , as per Quran all prophets right from Adam were Muslim and they all preached One Allah and banned idol worship , so if you look at back dated customs and liken then to Islam it is obvious.
So Humsafar (definately not mine Thank God) please say something relevant or dont waste your time.

[accountability]

Anajmi: Do you know sulman Rushdie has written more than one book. He was given adamji book award in Ziaul haque's dictatorship. The award was for his book, "mid night children". This book is in context of Partition, and how the family(ies) coped with their new life. A very intresting story, very artfully told.

[anajmi]

accountability,

So?

[practical]

Adam were Muslim and they all preached One Allah and banned idol worship

Then are we following that preach and not worshiping Idols in form of photographs, Kabars, Galef weight which we kiss?? We believe that the stones are crying!

[Zeal]

Studying the posts on this particular thread by some of members like Humsafar, Kalim, Porus and some more its seems that these people were believers of Islam at a certain point in their life but not any more.

I believe these are the people who get carried away by their extra innovative brains.
(Btw : innovation is not allowed in Islam)

I feel people who are not in control of their nafs(conscious) and want satisfying reasons for getting into alcohol,illegal sex etc challenge their own imaan by their surface knowledge of science and modernism.

No wonder people have turned athiests when they had little or surface knowledge of science , but had to believe in god and the supernatural power when gone in depth of science.

Anajmi brother I feel there is no need to argue with them about otudated practices in Islam or anything else.
They know it all , we just have to wait till Allah subhanho gives them the hidayat(taufeeq)

[jamanpasand]

Mission Statement of this site began as

We are engaged in a struggle to bring about social reform in the community. We challenge the authoritarian ways of the priesthood and not the religious authority of the Da'i (high priest).

Now focus has shifted from the core issue to the very root of the fundamental religious beliefs.

Let us point an end to this Atheistic approach as this will hurt the cause of reform in the long run.

[Admin]

Dear Janampasand,

Please understand that the mission of this site has not changed, nor has its focus shifted. We cannot emphasize this enough.

We provide a free public forum for discussion of Bohra and Islamic issues. All kinds of people participate in this forum and bring a variety of perspectives to the discussion. This site does not endorse any particular views or individuals except the ones that directly support the reform movement.

The choice of topics and direction of discussion is all controlled by the members like you. It is up to the members how and where thy want to drive the discussion. We as Admin do not want to get involved in that.

May we remind you that there's more to this site than this forum, and there's is more to the reform movement than this site. This is an unofficial, independently run site to spread awareness about the reform movement with relevant information and provide a much-needed discussion forum for Bohras who cannot otherwise speak their mind.

[tahir]

Originally posted by jamanpasand:

Let us point an end to this Atheistic approach as this will hurt the cause of reform in the long run.

By the same token should we also then point an end to the kothari approach, ie ban all the abdes?... as this will hurt the cause of reform in the long run .

[jamanpasand]

I agree that this site has good articles on reform and other issues. Further, I understand that this forum is independent.

But I see a trend, which is disturbing.

First an Orthodox becomes reformist. Then secular. Third stage is agnostic.
Finally an Atheist.

If this is ones final destination, then majority will feel better off being orthodox.

[Admin]

Originally posted by jamanpasand:

But I see a trend, which is disturbing.

First an Orthodox becomes reformist. Then secular. Third stage is agnostic.
Finally an Atheist.

We do not see any trend here. Probably you know something that we don't. Can you name one member who has traveled along the trajectory you describe - from Orthodox to Atheist?

It is quite heartening to know that this forum can change people's thinking, but we think you are giving it more credit than it claims or even deserves.

[jamanpasand]

We do not see any trend here. Probably you know something that we don't. Can you name one member who has traveled along the trajectory you describe - from Orthodox to Atheist?

Are these atheists you see on the forum are born atheists?

If you read them closely you will realize that at some point they were Kothar’s Sabaq attending Ortho.

[jamanpasand]

Isn’t Mr. Asgher Engineer ---- a born Ortho.

Where he stands now ?

Certainly, not at the ortho level!

Surely, little ahead of reform level.

Can you see a trend ?

[kalim]

Dear All: It is not at all surprising that people like "jamanpasand" accuse some of leading to atheism. This is a common accusation against Ismailis in general since the earliest times. Just like our friend jamanpasand has four stages in his scheme, the medieval Sunnis had the notorious "nine stages of initiations" myth which they used to fool the masses into believing that the Ismailis were actually atheists. Anyway, these fellows never tell us why something is a "disturbing trend".

The reform movement is not about "reforming" Bohras to Sunni-ism as some fellows on this board seem to be intent on. Bohras do not give a damn about chaps like Zeal and the other members of the Sunni cabal on this broad calling this or that practice "innovation" or "shirk". In a way the Shia and particularly Ismaili concept of "tawil", "haqqaiq", of a "living Quran" etc., is a reaction against the excessive literalism and rigid interpretation of scripture and Prophetic traditions. I fully agree with my Ustad from my younger days that the literalists are fighting over the skin, while the real fruit is left uneaten.

The reform movement is a social movement. It is not about doctrine, although religious issues do crop up now and then. The reformists completely accept the institution of the da'i as a spiritual guide and many, like me, are very proud of the rich intellectual traditions of great duats like al-Kirmai, al-Shirazi, the Ikhwan as-Safa, al-Sijistani, even Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin and Mohammad Burhanuddin. Only those who have never had any experience with this tradition can claim that it is not intellectually progressive.

What we want is reform in social issues. We want less control from the dawat administration on our secular lives. Less demands of money at the drop of a hat. Less coercive tactics to bring free-thinkers into line. More jamat autonomy, more transparency and openness on how community money is spent, more support for education and other social causes, more avenues to express grievances and a better access to justice against corrupt Amils/wali-mullahs. If this seems like the road to atheism to someone, we will be glad to hear their arguments.

Personally, I would also add more intellectual freedoms to the list, but the ground reality is that almost no bohra, or Muslim for that matter, is ready for such radical things. So, pragmatically, we are more concerned about social causes, leaving intellectual issues for each to sort out on his/her own.

To the deep loss of Muslims in general, any freethinking/intellectual individual is automatically labeled "atheist"/"agnostic" and driven out of the community. If the medieval Muslims has qualms about adopting philosophy and science from the Greeks, who were polytheists, the "Golden Age" of Islam may never have happened. We must have an open discussion about everything, with nothing treated as a sacred-cow, not, however, forgetting that what individuals express are individual views which are not to be taken as collective doctrine. If someone is uncomfortable with the topic being discussed they need not participate. No need to introduce "meta"-comments that so-and-so topic is beyond discussion or that "innovation is not allowed" or other such foolishness.

[porus]

Originally posted by jamanpasand:
Isn’t Mr. Asgher Engineer ---- a born Ortho.

Nobody is born anything except a human. Ortho becomes one by imbibing the belief system of adults who rear him when he is very young. Most beliefs are driven into subconscious by the time one is 6 years old. His beliefs will reflect the beliefs of his significant caregivers and they may be orthodox or atheist or anything in-between.

An adult will come to his own conclusions. Some with thought, some without thought.

My impression is that this board does not significantly affect the beliefs of its participants. It hopefullly makes them think a bit more.

Whatever a Bohra's belief, firm believer or firm rejector of faith, he remains a Bohra by virtue of his birth in a Bohra family. If Orthos believe in Allah, then they should know that it is Allah's wish that he be born to a Bohra family.

[kalim]

Dear jamanpasand: You seems to have things reversed: a child is born without any concept of God or religion. If not taught by his parents or teachers he/she will never know about these things. So everyone is born an atheist, they turn religious as they grow up.

I should tell you that I still attend sabaqs whenever I can and have good relations with many leading bohras. However, I was never orthodox, even when very young, although my parents are die-hard orthos. I vividly remember having a discussion, when I was in the 8th or 9th grade, on Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time" with the editor of a leading bohra monthly. He was very interested to know about what modern science had to say about the origin of the universe and even asked me for a copy of the book.

Anyway, it may be better that you explicate your "Four Stages to Atheism" theory a bit more. Let us also read about the analysis, no doubt brilliant, you have done on this issue.

[Average Bohra]

Jamanpasand,

First an Orthodox becomes reformist. Then secular. Third stage is agnostic......Isn’t Mr. Asgher Engineer ---- a born Ortho.


The need to classify thought and belief systems into pre-defined labels or classes [ "one size fits all" ] is what I find more "disturbing".

First an Orthodox becomes reformist. Then secular. Third stage is agnostic.If this is ones final destination, then majority will feel better off being orthodox.

This is a very simplistic view. The majority will be better off being free thinkers and deciding what works best from them, and not being afraid to walk away from all those classifications if none of them fit.

[anajmi]

jamanpasand,

The people you refer to are a classic example of those that want to be "do (2) kashti mein sawaar". We all know what happens to them in the end.

They want a dai that will perform their marriage/divorce rituals, their hakikas, their birth rituals and their burial rituals, but they do not want this dai to tell them to pray, or go to hajj or give zakat or believe in the quran or to ask them for money.

Unfortunately they found a dai who doesn't give a rat's ass if you pray as long as you pay.

Something about you getting the leaders that you deserve.

[Average Bohra]

You are right, people in need of a religious leader end up by getting what they deserve. Catholics have the Pope, Bohras have the Dai, and Wahabis have no one.

[anajmi]

It's surprising you still call them wahabis. Apparently you have no idea what it means!!

[Average Bohra]

Them ? [!]