The 48th to the 49th Imam..descendency???

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Nizari,<p>[2.124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.<p>And who was Imam before Ibrahim...his father Tarikh or Terah (in hebrew).

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According to the Bible, Shem lived into the time of Abraham.<p>Now, if Imamat passes on the death of the previous Imam, then if Shem is not dead, he is still the Imam.<p>So Terah cannot be the Imam if Shem (also known as Melchizedek) is the Imam.<p>As for the genealogy, that doesnt tell us anything new.

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Brother Qiyam, Butthead,<p>I don't understand how the two of you can debate at all.<p>Qiyam, Nizari's entire argument is based upon the bible. If you want to debate you need to debate from the bible or not debate at all. I don't think you believe that the present bible can be considered authentic. I don't either and no other true muslim will. So there is no point in debating with this butthead over here.

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---I am only one a few people that actually quote thing from book...unlike you.---<p>Qiyam,<br>You have absolutely ZERO credibility on this board. <p><p>

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Dear Anajmi,<br>I guess I see your point. I've tried using more authentic sources..but like you pointed..they reference Islamic sources only when its suit them...otherwise there from the 7th century.<p>Dear Nizari,<br>Melchizek's greatness is in your imagination. Shem is not Melchizek...the only thing that say they are the same is what you've put in the parathese. Shem was never known as Melchizek. They are two different people.

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Beavis,<p>If you think you have more credibility than anybody on this board, you are been ambitious.

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Dear Nizari,<br>Nowhere in the Bible is Shem equated with Melchizek or that he is even related to Melchizek. They were two different people 900 years apart. This equating between the two is something you've assumed with no found fact.<p>As far as geneology, is disprove your entire theory. Melchizek and Abrahamson were not related. Imamate follows geneology..not pick and choosing (remember this was your original defense for Sultan Muhammad selecting Karim Agha).

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Qiyam,<p>Give it up! There is no hope in Bohra-ism nor wahabism! You are a direct talking proof of it.<p>Are you saying that you do not have the seed of your grandfather?<p>Actually, you have the seed of your father, your grandfather, plus his father and onwards. Go do a dna test!<p>The Imamaate is from seed to seed. The grandson has the seed of his father as well as his grandfather all the way up to Abraham!<p>One more word of advise - Do not try matching your 'simpleton' wits with the Imams, the present or the past. The decision they have taken, some controversial, which only the rightful Guided with their Divine Guts can make & take.<p>

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<br>Yes HI is from Allah<p>He is 99.99999999999 Percent Allah<p>Remaining 0.000000000001 Percent is Devil<p>In this 21 st century devil is menifast<p>Long live HI<p>Lets go to races see HI's horse race. May be we will bet quid or two.<p>Then lets go to casino owned by HI, drop couple of bucks.<p>Sleep over in 5 star Hotel owned by HI. Go dancing in Ballroom. May be we will bump into HI Daughter or Hi sister with their Christian Husbands<p>Then go to Jamaat Khana and have some water sprinkled over so all the sins will be washed away.<p>Its good to be Ismaili (non) Muslim<p><p>

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Qiyam,<p>On what basis can a statement be made that Imam cannot nominate his son's son to be his succesor?

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Actually I am an Imam - from the seed of Adam.

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Dear Porus,<br>It is not my bases..it is the Agha Khanni's own bases for Imamate...this is why I am asking them personally...and why they avoided the issue.<p>Nizari entire argument that Muhammad (saw)was not the Imam was because Maulana Ali is not from Muhammad. This is also why they don't consider Imam Hassan an Imam..but consider Imam Husayn the second Imam.<p>Thus the lineage of Imamate is from father to son from the time of Adam. Imamate went from Abu Muttalib to Abu Talib to Ali to Husayn to... This is the theory provided by Nizari. And this is why I asked the question..according to their own theory...how can you jump.

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Yes you can jump<p>the grandson is still the seed of the father.<p>Melchizedek to Abraham - skips 8 generations.<p>

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Qiyam,<p>Prove that Melchizedek and Shem are two different people if you can.<p>Here is proof that they are the same person:<p>"It is probable that Shem was the personage to whom Abraham paid tithes on his return from the slaughter of the kings. Abraham died thirty-five years before Shem reached his five hundred and second year, after the flood. At this date, Isaac was one hundred and ten, and Jacob fifty; so that they were contemporary with Shem for these periods of their lives. There is no account of Shem's death in the scripture; on the contrary... the person called Melchizedec still lives. Now, Melchizedec is a word expressive of the character of the person who bore it. It signifies king of righteousness, or righteous king. He was the greatest king in Canaan, and reigned in Salem, which signifies peace, and is afterwards called Jerusalem; so that this righteous king was King of Peace. Shem, king of righteousness, and king of peace, and priest of the Most High God, is the type, contemporary with the holder of the promises, of the Seed, or Christ, on the throne of the Kingdom of God." <br> - John Thomas - a Christian scholar<p>A verse that could be used to support this is:<p>"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!..." <br>Genesis 9:26, NIV <p>In the Mormon book, Doctrine and Covenants (138:41), Shem is identified as a great high priest. In the Apocrapha, Jasher (16:11) also says that Melchizedek was "the same as Shem..." Hebrew tradition indicates that at this time Shem was the oldest living human alive; making it appear to those around him that he had no parents or relatives. Generations would come and go, and Shem would still be there. <br>

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Yes...the seed of the father..not the grandfather. Karim is the son of Ali..not Sultan..get it. And remember...this is the Agha Khanni theory of Imamate..not mine.<p>And Melchizek lived in the time of Abraham...Shem or his son did not. Two different people.

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Karim is the direct descendent of Imam Sultan Muhammad Sha.<p>I don't see the problem there<p>And if you have read the Bible, Shem/Melchizedek did live into the time of Abraham.

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Qiyam<p>Instead of flip floping - why don't you just say & stick by:<br>Imam cannot designate the grandson it has to be the son. <br>Similarly, the Imam cannot change the "ways" of the 7th century. <p>You are right - this is not the Ismailis ways this is 'your way' - a demented follower of the Kothar.

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Qiyam<p>you have your theology and we have ours.<br>Thats the way it is.<p>yours is crap, but you still believe, there is nothing i can do about that.

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Nizari and Hafeez,<br>Excuse..but I have time again stated this theory is not my but yours. It was used by both of you in explaining Ali being the Imam and not Muhammad. That Imamate is one by geneology and direct descendancy (not just descendancy)!<p>Either this theory is false or the one your now promoting is true. You can't use both because one fails the other.<p>So no, Karim is not a direct descendant of the Sultan...he is the direct descendant of Ali who is not an Imam. Karim is a descendant of Sultan..but that goes against the original theory you were pushing of "direct descendancy".<p>I do have my theology...and unlike your..it doesn't change like the wind.

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Beavis and Butthead do each other.

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qiyam posted 04-22-2002 06:21 PM ET <br>-------------------------------------- <br>Between Shem and Abraham..there were 8 descendants...named by Judaic scriptures...and Melchizik is one of them!!!<p>Nizari posted 04-22-2002 06:56 PM ET <br>--------------------------------------<br>- No, according to Judaic traditions Melchizedek and Shem were the same person. <p>Here is what I found out from the genealogy chart of the prophet Since Adam to Muhammad (saw). If you mean Shem who is the son of Noah then he can't possible be at the time with Prophet Ibrahim. Of course there might be other Shem that we are not aware of who might also be known as Malchizedik but then who is the father for him? <p>Here is the genealogy from Prophet Noah until Prophet Ibrahim direct descendent:<p>Noah-Sham-Arfakshad-Shalikh-Abir-Falikh-Ra'u-Saru-Nahur-Azar-Ibrahim (prophet)<p>Another branch From Sham to Salih (prophet)<br>Sham-Iram-Ars-Samud-Hadzir-Ubayd-Masih-Auf-Abir-Salih<p>Another branch from Iram to Hud-Lut-Syuib (prophet)<br>Iram-Aush-Ad-Khulud-Raya-Abddullah-Hud(prophet) -haran - Lut (prophet) - Sayfun - Syuib (prophet)<br>

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Dear Jinx,<br>It was an incorrect statement on my part...I meant Melchizek ISN'T one of them. I apologize. If you looked at my other responses...I stated this several times that Melchizek and Shem are two different people.

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Look at what the Bible says about Melchizedek's descendency:<p>Hebrews 7<p>6 This Melchizedek was King of Salem (ISLAM) and Priest [IMAM] of God Most High (El-Elyon). He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, <p>7 And Abraham gave him a tenth (ZAKAT) of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace” (or King of Islam) <p>8 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, but made [Divine] like the Son of God, ABIDETH A PRIEST CONTINUALLY.<p>Now, if we go by Qiyam's interpretation of this verse, Melchizedek has no genealogy. <p>If we go by our intellect, keeping in mind that Jewish sources (the Book of Jasher) claiming Shem and Melchizedek the same person, Shem lived into the time of Abraham (according to the Bible), and during Abraham's time, Shem would be the oldest man on earth because he came fromt he pre-flood age, therefore it would look to ppl that he had no genealogy since they had no records to go by. The words "without father or mother" and "abideth a priest continually" also apply to the Divine Priesthood that Melchizedek holds. The Holy Imamat is continuous and had no father or mother. <br>

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Butthead,<p>King of peace does not mean king of islam. Ariel Sharon is been dubbed as king of peace, does he now become king of islam?<p>Don't you think before you write, you idiot.

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Qiyam<p>you really dont know what u are saying

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Ariel Sharon is not dubbed king of peace.<p>Ariel Sharon is NOT a the high priest of God most High.<p>Ariel Sharon has nothing to do with this conversation. Anajmi, be quiet!

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Dear Nizari,<br>The book of Jasher is not considered part of the Torah and also not considered authentic..to Jews. So why would I reference it to begin with.<p>Look at the verses you've quoted without the paranthese...then maybe you'll see something. Your whole argument is based not on the actual words..but on the interpretation in parantheses.<p>Secondly, remember king Herod..he was a high priest..is he also an Imam too?<p>Thirdly, Noah lived to the age of 950 yrs...older than Shem.<p>My interpretation is based on what is written in the verses...not in the paranthese that somebody else put in. <p>So in Hebrews chapter 7 of the New Testament:<p>v1 This "Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of God Most High, met Abraham as he returned from his defeat of the kings" and "blessed him." <p>---but if you read a little further!!!!<p>v2 And Abraham apportioned to him "a tenth of everything." His name first means righteous king, and he was also "king of Salem," that is, king of peace. <p>v3 Without father, mother, or ancestry, without beginning of days or end of life, 4 thus made to resemble the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. See how great he is to whom the patriarch "Abraham (indeed) gave a tenth" of his spoils. <br> <br>----According to this..Melchezedik didn't have a mother or father or ancenstry. To be Shem..who is the son of Adam Nabi..you need an ancestry. These are two separate people.

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Dear Nizari,<br>with my last post...I would hope you would be more kind as to tell other "you really dont know what u are saying" or "to be quiet".<p>Take your own advice. <br>

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correction:<p>Shem was the son of Noah, not Adam<p>Seth was the son of Adam.<p>sorry for the mistake.

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You are mixing yourself up now.<p>Shem the son of Adam???<br>You are sure losing it now.<p>And Shem lived for 500 years after the flood - well into Abraham's time.<p>It would appear as if he had no parents because he was the oldest man during that time, generations would pass, but Shem would still be there.