Dawoodi Bohra Forum

aziz wrote:go to surat bakarah read about the part where allah orders all angels to give sujood to adam as and all angels obeyed but for iblis ,,,adam as was not allah,then read what it says about iblis who did not give sajda to adam sa,, tell insaap or engineer to stop behaving like the same iblis and tell you what they have read in the books they claim are authentic dawoodi bohra books about the position of dail mutlaq..and do not bring me quotes from sunni websites people who say rasulaah sa was an ordinary man

It is an excellent advice to read Surat al-Baqarah, ayats 30 to 38.

Here are two points to ponder.

1. Bohras are not angels and Sayedna is no Adam. The event described in the Quran happened in Paradise and not on earth. But on earth, Allah forbids sajda to anyone except to Him alone. Surat al-Fussilat, ayat 37, says "asjudu li-llahi...in kuntum iyya-hu ta'abudun'. Its translation is "Do not do sajda to anyone or anything except Allah alone (Iyya-hu) if you worship him."

2. You might want to understand the taawil behind Surat al-Baqarah, ayats 30-38. What was the state of Adam before he approached the forbidden tree? Was he fully human?

how do you it happenend in heaven ,do you know what angels are? do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about... as for taawil i thought sunnis do not accept taawil but now it seems they do when it suits them and for that matter do you know the taawil behind the sajda to syedna tus,if so then you would not be comparing the sajda to allah to sajda to panjatan ,imams or duats

aziz wrote:how do you it happenend in heaven ,do you know what angels are? do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about... as for taawil i thought sunnis do not accept taawil but now it seems they do when it suits them and for that matter do you know the taawil behind the sajda to syedna tus,if so then you would not be comparing the sajda to allah to sajda to panjatan ,imams or duats

I am talking about the Bohra Tawil. Sunnis believe that Tawil is known only to Allah. Non-Ismaili Shia believe that Tawil is also known to Imam. Until the 51st Dai, Bohras also believed that Tawil is known only to Allah and Imam.

There is no tawil behind sajda to Sayedna. It is forbidden by Allah to do sajda to anyone and anything except to Allah alone.

Do not quote Quran unless you know what it says.

porus wrote:

aziz wrote:how do you it happenend in heaven ,do you know what angels are? do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about... as for taawil i thought sunnis do not accept taawil but now it seems they do when it suits them and for that matter do you know the taawil behind the sajda to syedna tus,if so then you would not be comparing the sajda to allah to sajda to panjatan ,imams or duats

I am talking about the Bohra Tawil. Sunnis believe that Tawil is known only to Allah. Non-Ismaili Shia believe that Tawil is also known to Imam. Until the 51st Dai, Bohras also believed that Tawil is known only to Allah and Imam.

There is no tawil behind sajda to Sayedna. It is forbidden by Allah to do sajda to anyone and anything except to Allah alone.

Do not quote Quran unless you know what it says.

seconded


@aziz
fetch a copy of quraan in your mother tounge then you will realize what is islaam and quraan

Bohras are not angels and Sayedna is no Adam.

Good one brother Porus. This is exactly what I was going to write in reponse of his idiotic post.

Also, according to Aziz if one can do sajda to Allah by bowing down while facing the Qibla than one can do sajda to Syedna as well. What a pathetic comparison...

(how do you it happenend in heaven ,do you know what angels are? do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about... as for taawil i thought sunnis do not accept taawil but now it seems they do when it suits them and for that matter do you know the taawil behind the sajda to syedna tus,if so then you would not be comparing the sajda to allah to sajda to panjatan ,imams or duats )

this was my post and you replied

(I am talking about the Bohra Tawil. Sunnis believe that Tawil is known only to Allah. Non-Ismaili Shia believe that Tawil is also known to Imam. Until the 51st Dai, Bohras also believed that Tawil is known only to Allah and Imam.

There is no tawil behind sajda to Sayedna. It is forbidden by Allah to do sajda to anyone and anything except to Allah alone.

Do not quote Quran unless you know what it says.)

all the dawoodi bohras taawil books have been written by syedna qadhi noman and syedna mohamed bin taher,so the question of bohras not knowing taawil before syedna saifuddin is all lies,, and angels were commanded in the quran to do sajda to adam a living human being , this is in quran and you depend on translai do not quote others but from quran onlytions of quran which may be wrong or sometimes partly right but i know arabic and am doing hifz also so

right but i know arabic and am doing hifz also so

Oh that is how you came to the conclusion that doing sajda to Allah while facing Kaaba is same as doing sajda to syedna... Maybe this is your own Taawil...

aziz wrote: all the dawoodi bohras taawil books have been written by syedna qadhi noman and syedna mohamed bin taher,so the question of bohras not knowing taawil before syedna saifuddin is all lies,, and angels were commanded in the quran to do sajda to adam a living human being , this is in quran and you depend on translai do not quote others but from quran onlytions of quran which may be wrong or sometimes partly right but i know arabic and am doing hifz also so

I am going to assume that you know a lot of taawil. Let us know:

1. What is the taawil behind Allah's command to Farishtas to do sajda to Adam?

2. What is the taawil behind behind Bohras doing sajda to Sayedna?

Allah says in the Quran (ayat 3:7) that some ayats have taawil, others do not. When answering the above questions, identify the ayats from which taawil is drawn for the 2nd question, the sajda to Sayedna. We already know the ayats regarding sajda to Adam.

(By the way, there are many authors who have written about tawil, not just the two you mentioned. Do you know who they are?)

Porus forget about what taawil says. Let us first hear your(nonsensical) take on the sajda to Adam. As aziz rightly said, Adam was not Allah. So why were
the angels ordered to perform sajda to him? And if Adam, then why not the Imam, Dai or prophet Mohammad(certainly you believe Mohammad to be
of greater stature than Adam and humans to be of lesser stature than angels)

Also please enlighten us what the angels performing sajda mean. Is it a literal sajda. Are angels some sort of material beings who can perform human like actions.

1) as some body said bohras are not angels the if angels were commanded by allah to perform sajda to adam as then why is it wrong for ordinary bohras to do sajda to the syedna who is vicegerent of imam,who is alhebayt of panjatan

2) incredible should go and ask his aamil for the taawil answer and if he qualifies he will be given the answers ,its not for me to decide

aziz wrote:..... if angels were commanded by allah to perform sajda to adam as then why is it wrong for ordinary bohras to do sajda to the syedna who is vicegerent of imam,who is alhebayt of panjatan

I will make one more attempt to persuade you.

What Allah commands angels to do is not your concern. Nor is your concern what Quran describes anyone else doing. Your task is to do what Allah commands human beings to do and obey. In Surat al-fussilat (also known as surat Ha-Meem as-sajda), ayat 37, Allah commands human beings:

لا تَسْجُدُوا لِلشَّمْسِ وَلا لِلْقَمَرِ وَاسْجُدُوا لِلَّهِ الَّذِي خَلَقَهُنَّ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ إِيَّاهُ تَعْبُدُونَ

Translation:

"Do not do sajda to the Sun nor to the Moon. Do sajda to Allah, the One who created them both, if it is He alone that you worship." (41:37)

In surat al-dhariyat, ayat 56, Allah says:

وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالإِنْسَ إِلا لِيَعْبُدُونِ

"I did not create jinn and mankind except to worship me alone" (51:56)

Now, put these two ayats together and the conclusion is clear.

"Do sajda to the Allah alone, no one else."

(By the way, in Bohra tawil any reference in the Quran to the Sun and the Moon may also refer to Nabi Muhammad and Ali respectively. So ayat 41:37 forbids sajda to Prophet and Ali and hence to any human being.)

porus wrote:What Allah commands angels to do is not your concern.

When in doubt run.
If it is of no concern to humans and has no relevance with humans, why mention it in the Quran and why make such a big deal out of it in the Quran?
Quran is for humans, isn't it?

Profastian and Aziz,

Porus is a highly knowledgeable and well known scholar on this board. Try to read and understand his complete posts and you might learn something. Its very easy to nitpick and make fun of others which seems to be your only talent .

BTW: Can you guys provide any reference from Quran where it is clearly mentioned that a HUMAN can do sajda to another HUMAN and it is not prohibited...

aziz wrote:do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about

This crap is doled out in sabaks. The amil says "adam (a.s.) ye aam kahiyu pan tame jaano chho KAYAA ADAM ? Then there is a deafening silence and the amil says "aa taawil nu bayan chhe"

Dr. Asghar Ali Enginee says about Sajda to Syedna in his article "Reformists and their religious beliefs":-

This, in a way, is a fundamental difference between the orthodox and the reformists. The reformists believe that Allah's commandment to mala'ik (i.e.angels) to bow before Adam was to bow before human dignity. Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being.
The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i).
Needless to say the reformists totally and categorically reject this un-Islamic practice of bowing before any human being. Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

porus wrote:By the way, in Bohra tawil any reference in the Quran to the Sun and the Moon may also refer to Nabi Muhammad and Ali respectively. So ayat 41:37 forbids sajda to Prophet and Ali and hence to any human being.

this is not necessary, in few cases yes but not in every case a sun and moon is compared to Nabi and wasi and specifically Prophet(saw) and Moula Ali(as)

S. Insaf wrote:Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

Please quote some examples of Dai claiming the same you allege him of

deleted

S. Insaf wrote:Dr. Asghar Ali Enginee says about Sajda to Syedna in his article "Reformists and their religious beliefs":-

This, in a way, is a fundamental difference between the orthodox and the reformists. The reformists believe that Allah's commandment to mala'ik (i.e.angels) to bow before Adam was to bow before human dignity. Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being.
The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i).
Needless to say the reformists totally and categorically reject this un-Islamic practice of bowing before any human being. Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

insaaf saab.........can u ask asgar to provide material where dai is claiming?

ghulam muhammed wrote:

aziz wrote:do you know who adam as was or which adam the quran is talking about

This crap is doled out in sabaks. The amil says "adam (a.s.) ye aam kahiyu pan tame jaano chho KAYAA ADAM ? Then there is a deafening silence and the amil says "aa taawil nu bayan chhe"

YES thats true....but the way u have quote it u made me laugh.

S. Insaf wrote:Dr. Asghar Ali Enginee says about Sajda to Syedna in his article "Reformists and their religious beliefs":-

This, in a way, is a fundamental difference between the orthodox and the reformists. The reformists believe that Allah's commandment to mala'ik (i.e.angels) to bow before Adam was to bow before human dignity. Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being.
The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i).
Needless to say the reformists totally and categorically reject this un-Islamic practice of bowing before any human being. Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

well till no now i have never heard syedna Muhammed burhanuddin (tus) to ask people to do sajdah for him...some illiterate people does sajdah,i donno if they know details about tauhid.

Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being. The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i).Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.,,,

this is what you have posted ,is this in the quran if so where , that humans are above the angels,and please prove your claim by showing where and when the dailmutlaq the syedna tus has made the claims you or engineer has made ,i am sure that you will be able to do so from the high level bhaisahebs or aamils or insiders who are very close to you

Aarif wrote:Profastian and Aziz,

Porus is a highly knowledgeable and well known scholar on this board. Try to read and understand his complete posts and you might learn something. Its very easy to nitpick and make fun of others which seems to be your only talent .

BTW: Can you guys provide any reference from Quran where it is clearly mentioned that a HUMAN can do sajda to another HUMAN and it is not prohibited...

Dont make me laugh. He is just a fraud who thinks too highly of himself (and he knows it too).

Sahih International
And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.
Muhsin Khan
And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if you (really) worship Him.
Pickthall
And of His portents are the night and the day and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or the moon; but prostrate to Allah Who created them, if it is in truth Him Whom ye worship.
Yusuf Ali
Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve.
Shakir
And among His signs are the night and the day and the sun and the moon; do not prostrate to the sun nor to the moon; and prostrate to Allah Who created them, if Him it is that you serve.
Dr. Ghali
And of His signs are the night and the daytime, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate yourselves to the sun, nor to the moon; and prostrate yourselves to Allah, Who created them, in case Him (alone) you do worship.
Tafsir al-Jalalayn
And among His signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and moon, but prostrate to God Who created them, namely, these fours signs, if it is Him Whom you worship.




this is the ayat that porus aalim has used to argue his case ,here there are again 6 different translations so can the aalim porus explain which is the correct one and how he reached that conclusion,because word of allah cannot be changed and by translating or following the translation you are doing that,

Aziz
AS
Translation of anything means translation as interpreted by the auther. No single translation can be certified as true translation. As far as you are concerned correct translation is by your Aqa Maula and he has not published any translation. To my knowledge, there is No Qur'an translation by any of Imams of various Shia Branches.

Correct way to understand Qur'an is to learn Clasical Arabic.

Please keep in mind all ANY translation (interpretation) of the Qur'aan will most definitely contain errors. In its natural language (Arabic), the Qur'aan is the direct Word of Allah (God) to mankind through the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Any translation of the Qur'aan no longer retains that 'official' and perfect status, however it can be tremendously helpful to beginning students wanting to learn more about Islam.
I would strongly encourage those want to learn about Islam to purchase a hardcopy of the Qur'aan but with the following conditions:
• get one with commentary (tafseer)
• make sure the tafseer is scholarly (e.g. references to reasons behind a verse, references to hadith and sunnah etc).

I understand you are learning Arabic. Go to your Jamia and ask your Aamil to translate at least 3 Ayas everyday. Write it down and you will become famous for authentic Bohra translation.

Wasalaam

thats exactly my point that the translation cannot repeat cannot be called the word of allah because its interpreted by a human according to that person,the real meaning that allah wishes to convey is lost or partly lost in some cases ,,
its all okay to use the translations to study arabic but cannot be used as a reference when quoting the quran because the translation is not the word of allah,
thats why bohras do not read the translations

Muslim First wrote: To my knowledge, there is No Qur'an translation by any of Imams of various Shia Branches.

That is correct. All the Shia Imams lived among Arabic people and, even when they were explaining the Quran, they used Arabic of their times. We know their Arabic as 'Classical Arabic'. For them, it was just Arabic.

For Bohras, that is a triple whammy. They cannot understand the Quran and they cannot understand their Imam's explanations. They cannot even understand the Arabic of their Yemeni Dais who also taught and wrote in Classical Arabic.

To my knowledge, there is No Qur'an translation by any of Imams of various Shia Branches.


That is correct. All the Shia Imams lived among Arabic people and, even when they were explaining the Quran, they used Arabic of their times. We know their Arabic as 'Classical Arabic'. For them, it was just Arabic.

I said various Shia Branchis.

Nizari Ismaili Imams do speak English for last 100 years and their Murids believe they possess original qur'an and they are only interpretor of Qur'an.

Alas but no translation.

Wasalaam

thats why bohras do not read the translations

Alas. It is their loss and keeps them in darkness and in control of their clergy.

Exactly like Hindus. Brahmins are only one who know the religion.

porus wrote:

Muslim First wrote: To my knowledge, there is No Qur'an translation by any of Imams of various Shia Branches.

That is correct. All the Shia Imams lived among Arabic people and, even when they were explaining the Quran, they used Arabic of their times. We know their Arabic as 'Classical Arabic'. For them, it was just Arabic.

For Bohras, that is a triple whammy. They cannot understand the Quran and they cannot understand their Imam's explanations. They cannot even understand the Arabic of their Yemeni Dais who also taught and wrote in Classical Arabic.

We don't have any 'written' translations of the Quran. Our DAI translates the Quran for us which is sufficient.