Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:33 pm**

Our brother Muslim First cannot let go of this discussion. He keeps sending me pm's about it.

Here is the latest exchange about whether or not I know if Prophet fasted for exactly 30 days in Ramadan.

Muslim First wrote:Br. It is your claim that fast in Ramadaan is fixed, that is 30 days, not mine.

Brother,

You have not been reading my posts carefully. Please do.

My claim is that the number of fasts in Ramadan are 'fixed' according to ayat 2:184. The ayat does not specify that number. It is up to us to determine whether we want it to be 29 or 30. They cannot be exactly 29 or exactly 30 as I have explained countless times. That is due to orbits of both the earth and the moon.

For reasons best known to Imam Jafar al-Sadiq, Bohras keep the number of fasts at 30.

Other Muslims take the ayats of sighting the moon literally and wait for their leaders to actually 'see' the crescent to decide o the first day of the lunar month. (Mind you they do not individually look for the crescent). Quran tells us that orbits are fixed by Allah. And He has given us the intelligence to predict the new moon very accurately.

The issue with the Hijri/Misri calendar is that in it Lunar and Solar reckonings are mixed up. Muslim months are based on Lunar. Their days are based on Solar. So the calendar deals with discrepancies by adjusting days of a month in what is called a Leap Year. Misri Calendar does that fro Dhul Hajj.

I do not know if Prophet had the knowledge of modern astronomy. I do not know if he fasted 29 days one Ramadan and 30 days another. All we need to be concerned with is that Quran tells us to fast for a 'fixed' number of days. If you follow moon sighting, a method prone to human error, then you can fast when you see the moon and sometimes even if you do not see the moon you will end your fasting when you have completed your 30 fasts. Where then does your insistence on sighting the moon disappear? Your explanation would be that that is because of the knowledge we have of the orbits of the moon and the earth. And that is exactly what the Misri calendar does.

Posted: **Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:44 pm**

even if you do not see the moon you will end your fasting when you have completed your 30 fasts. Where then does your insistence on sighting the moon disappear?

Actually, the insistence is on following the tradition of the prophet (saw). Completion after 30 days is also from the prophet (saw), who has said that look for the moon on the 29 and if not seen complete 30 days. The explanation is not "orbits" but a clear instruction from the prophet (saw).

As I have indicated before, the "fixed" number of days is an erroneous interpretation. Most likely, that ayah is referring to the fasts of the people who came before Islam. For Ramadan, the instruction is to fast in the month of Ramadan. The relevant ayah is 2:185 and not 2:184

The bohras have so badly misinterpreted the Quran, that they will fast 30 days even if the days cross lunar months, as seen this year.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:59 am**

anajmi wrote:
even if you do not see the moon you will end your fasting when you have completed your 30 fasts. Where then does your insistence on sighting the moon disappear?
Actually, the insistence is on following the tradition of the prophet (saw). Completion after 30 days is also from the prophet (saw), who has said that look for the moon on the 29 and if not seen complete 30 days. The explanation is not "orbits" but a clear instruction from the prophet (saw).

So, it is now clear that even the Prophet did not bother sighting the moon sometime but relied on 'reckoning'. Thus we have a clear example from the Prophet that 'reckoning' trumps 'moon sighting'.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:15 am**

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5338&p=85491&hilit= ... oon#p85491

This has been stated on this forum multiple times before. Do a search. But the fact that you are getting it only now is not surprising. Youve been getting really slow.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:39 am**

As the battle between the two continues.
I would like to add something.

1)
It is known by all Muslims that the Month of Ramadan is divided into TENTHS عشر (Ushr), in lisan ud dawat its called "dasko"
http://islamstory.com/ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D ... 8%AE%D8%B1
First TEN - Rehmat
Middle TEN - Magferat
Last TEN - Itq min al nar
Thus, the month is divided into TENS. Not 29s or 28s.
If you want, you can have a Ramadan of 40 days or 50 days as long as the TENS stay!

2)
Another example.
It is accepted by ALL muslims that Lailtul Qadr comes during the LAST TEN DAYS.
There is a Hadees where the Prophet SAW says : "Seek Lailatul Qadr in the Last TEN days". (P.S DBs believe its on the 23rd while others on the 27th, that's beside the point here)
Question:
-How do you count backwards for the LAST TEN DAYS, if you don't know when the month ends?
-How can you have "LAST TEN DAYS" if Ramadan is 29 or 28 days?

Concluding:
The word "al iddah" in the Quran refers to a FIXED amount of Days.
The Prophet has said it's 30.
DBs follow the 30 rule.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:25 am**

"Seek Lailatul Qadr in the Last TEN days".

Actually, you cannot search for Lailatul Qadr during the day. You have to search it at night. And the prophet (saw) has said that search for it on the odd nights. So, 29 or 30, the number of odd nights remains the same.

Concluding:
The word "al iddah" in the Quran refers to a FIXED amount of Days.
The Prophet has said it's 30.
DBs follow the 30 rule.

As explained, DBs following the wrong interpretation is not something new. We have seen dozens of examples where people like you have misled the DBs. This is just one more. I have explained that the word iddah is also used for fasting on days missed due to sickness or travel. What is the fixed number that you have assigned to those fasts?

By the way, is it ok if I fast the last day of sha'ban and then 29 days in Ramadan to come up with 30?

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:34 am**

By the way, if the Adam believes that the prophet (saw) has asked to search for lailatul qadr during the "last ten days", when did he find it to be the 23rd? Are you in the habit of only quoting hadith when they suit your purpose and not actually following them?

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:42 am**

So, it is now clear that even the Prophet did not bother sighting the moon sometime but relied on 'reckoning'. Thus we have a clear example from the Prophet that 'reckoning' trumps 'moon sighting'.

The prophet (saw) has said to look for the moon on the 29th. If not found, then the month is 30 days. So how did it become clear to porus that the prophet did not bother sighting the moon? Maybe the same way an ambiguous ayah becomes clear to him??

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:07 am**

anajmi wrote:The prophet (saw) has said to look for the moon on the 29th. If not found, then the month is 30 days. So how did it become clear to porus that the prophet did not bother sighting the moon? Maybe the same way an ambiguous ayah becomes clear to him??

Prophet is alleged to have said:

look for the moon on the 29 and if not seen complete 30 days.

That means : "do not bother looking for the moon on the 30th"

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:36 am**

anajmi wrote: I have explained that the word iddah is also used for fasting on days missed due to sickness or travel. What is the fixed number that you have assigned to those fasts?

This is for the self styled expert in Arabic and the Quran.

عَدّ = 'adda, to count. It is a verb.

عَدّة = 'idda(t), variable number. It is a noun. It is also used for the prescribed waiting period for a widow, a divorcee and women whose marriages are not consummated. This number is not fixed.

مَعْدُودَة = ma'adooda(t), a fixed number. It is a passive participle. It describes an unchanging fact. Like 'maktoob' another passive participle which means something 'written', an unchanging fact again. In Arabic it is called اسم مفعول, ism maf'ool.

مَعْدُودَات = Plural of مَعْدُودَة

Others, apply the above definitions in translating ayat 2:184, reproduced below.

أَيَّامًا مَّعْدُودَاتٍ ۚ فَمَن كَانَ مِنكُم مَّرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَىٰ سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ ۚ وَعَلَى الَّذِينَ يُطِيقُونَهُ فِدْيَةٌ طَعَامُ مِسْكِينٍ ۖ فَمَن تَطَوَّعَ خَيْرًا فَهُوَ خَيْرٌ لَّهُ ۚ وَأَن تَصُومُوا خَيْرٌ لَّكُمْ ۖ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:50 am**

That means : "do not bother looking for the moon on the 30th"

Which is obvious isn't it? Why would you have to look for the moon on the 30th? He looked for the moon on the 29th.

Now here is an example of the Arabic knowledge of the 2 self proclaimed scholars of Arabic.

From Adam

The word "al iddah" in the Quran refers to a FIXED amount of Days.

From porus

عَدّة = 'idda(t), variable number. It is a noun. It is also used for the prescribed waiting period for a widow, a divorcee and women whose marriages are not consummated. This number is not fixed.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:44 pm**

From Adam

The word "al iddah" in the Quran refers to a FIXED amount of Days.

I think Adam meant "ma'adoodah".

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:22 pm**

This is getting funny now. According to porus the number is "fixed". But the number could be 29 or 30 as long as it is fixed. Fixed how? Within sects? A sect should fix it at either 29 or 30 and then not deviate? So if the porusia sect fixes it at 30 and the anajmisunia sect fixes it at 29, are we all in alignment with the Quran? How about the number of years? Can I fix it at 29 from 2014 - 2023 and then fix it at 30 from 2024 to 2033 as long as it is fixed? Or can it be fixed at the individual level as well? My wife decides to fix it at 30 and I fix it at 29 and she starts before me every year so we have a fixed id as well? Can we do that?

But remember fixing can be at 29 or 30 only according to one of our Arabic scholars. The other Arabic scholar still insists that the fixing is 30 days even if it means you have to span across multiple moon cycles!!

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:29 pm**

Br Anajmi and Br Porus
Can we now put rest of this ongoing in circle debate.
Most of the intelligent people make their point and move on and both of you made your points, now keep on dragging does not help in any way. After you made your points please rest it if people want to change based on your logic, well and good but please do not keep on dragging it to the point where it becomes boring
RAMDAN KAREEM

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:34 pm**

Yes. You can fix the number of fasts in Ramadan at 29 or 30. Then stick to it. Do not go changing them year after year and do not bother waiting for your leaders to sight the moon. Stick to Quran and discount hadith.

SBM,

ok.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:50 pm**

And what happens if I change sects?

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 1:51 pm**

Stick to Quran and discount hadith.

Do you want to apply the same principle to the hadith of ayah 33:33? You just jeopardized your faith you fool!!

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:07 pm**

I meant the hadith about Prophet telling you not to bother with moon sighting after the 30th fast.

Yes, I accept hadith I like and discount those that I do not like. In that, I am just like everybody else. We are all fools.

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:12 pm**

Actually, I accept all hadith from authentic sources. provided they or their interpretations, do not contradict with the Quran (eg. 33:33).

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:16 pm**

"porus"
SBM,

ok

Thank you Br Porus

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:32 pm**

Prominent Sunni scholar: Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - in his book "Tafhim al-Qur'an" wrote:

[Quran aayat# 183-184] O Believers, the Fast has been made obligatory on you just as it was prescribed for the followers of the Prophets before you. It is expected that this will produce piety in you.183 The Fast is to be observed for a fixed number of days. If, however, anyone of you be sick or on a journey, he should fast the same number of other days. As for those who can fast (but do not), the expiation of this shall be the feeding of one needy person for one fast day, and whoso does more than this 184 with a willing heart does it for his own good. But if you understand the thing, it is better for you to observe the Fast.185

Posted: **Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:36 pm**

Its too complicated, sometimes you ask an older person how you doing and then the person goes on ranting about all the pills he has to take to stay alive, on and on and on . I think religion is simple, dont screw up and if you do bet on mercy. I am.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:15 am**

Since badrijanab has mentioned Tafheem from Maududi, I would like to point that in his explanation, Maududi mentions that ayahs 183 and 184 were revealed a year before ayah 185. The "fixed" number of fasts in ayah 184 applies only to the fasts mentioned in ayah 183 and not for the month of ramadan!!

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:03 am**

anajmi wrote:Since badrijanab has mentioned Tafheem from Maududi, I would like to point that in his explanation, Maududi mentions that ayahs 183 and 184 were revealed a year before ayah 185. The "fixed" number of fasts in ayah 184 applies only to the fasts mentioned in ayah 183 and not for the month of ramadan!!

Assuming if Maududi is not incorrect, which all Sunni scholars generally almost always are: if 183/184 were revealed a year before 185 - then how it proves it is not in reference to Ramdaan?

The blue colour text above is your personal incorrect whim and fancy.

If we focus merely on 185 it too says about Ramdaan, "the prescribed period" - article "the" is definite article and "a / an" is indefinite article, here "the" is used meaning the period is stable/fix/constant and do not change.

So Dawoodi Bohra Maslaq is in compliance with 2:185 besides 2:184 but Sunni and Ithna Asheri are not in compliance with either aayat.

Posted: **Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:00 pm**

this subject has been discussed and dissected ad nauseum now and in the past. let whoever follow what they think is correct, but please spare us a headache here.

admin, its time to end and lock this topic, so we can all move on. also please move it to islam today sub-forum as it has nothing to do with bohra reform. thank you!

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:40 am**

@ANAJMI

Now here is an example of the Arabic knowledge of the 2 self proclaimed scholars of Arabic.

From Adam
The word "al iddah" in the Quran refers to a FIXED amount of Days.

From porus
عَدّة = 'idda(t), variable number. It is a noun. It is also used for the prescribed waiting period for a widow, a divorcee and women whose marriages are not consummated. This number is not fixed.

I was referring to the world "AL IDDAH" not just "IDDAH". Focus is on the ALIF & LAAM. When they are added to a word, they become SPECIFIC. Hence it is talking about a FIX amount. Just like the first line of Surah Baqarah says, that is THE Book (Quran) "al Kitab".

And you seem to have avoided the whole discussion about the TENTHS, proving that Ramadan cannot be other than 30 days.

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:09 am**

Actually, only bohra Ramadan cannot be anything other than 30 days. And as proven earlier, bohra Ramadan doesn't follow the cycle of the moon. Moon sighting is mentioned as a way to start a month even in Daimul Islam. The references have been provided on this forum before. The prophet (saw) did not have the bohra calendar. He started and ended the month by looking for the moon.

As far as the Quran is concerned, the knowledge of Arabic isn't sufficient for its understanding and no one proves it better than you and porus.

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:25 am**

Adam wrote:I was referring to the world "AL IDDAH" not just "IDDAH". Focus is on the ALIF & LAAM. When they are added to a word, they become SPECIFIC. Hence it is talking about a FIX amount. Just like the first line of Surah Baqarah says, that is THE Book (Quran) "al Kitab".

I agree. 2:185 mentions the word with reference to the number of fasts missed, which obviously must be 'fixed'.

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:30 pm**

I agree. 2:185 mentions the word with reference to the number of fasts missed, which obviously must be 'fixed'.

Fixed to what number? Is that number variable (depending upon year, location, person, health, travel plans, etc etc ) or is it bohra-fixed?

Posted: **Fri Aug 09, 2013 1:32 pm**

A lack of response suggests that this number is not bohra-fixed but a variable based upon a bunch of factors, some of which I have mentioned above. So in 2013 during the month of Ramadan, if individual A missed 3 fasts due to sickness, the fixed number for him/her is 3 and if individual B missed 6 fasts due to travel, then the fixed number for him/her is 6, even if they are husband and wife living in the same house!!

مَعْدُودَة = ma'adooda(t), a fixed number. It is a passive participle. It describes an unchanging fact. Like 'maktoob' another passive participle which means something 'written', an unchanging fact again. In Arabic it is called اسم مفعول, ism maf'ool.

مَعْدُودَات = Plural of مَعْدُودَة

Any idea why the need for the plural in 2:184?

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