The True Imam - How would you verify?

[Bohra spring]

Prog not all reformist care about the revelation of True shia Imam, if so where was he when he was most needed

So if your Diai does communicate with him let him explain his excuse like a grown up and not some star trek story .

so much calamity befell Islam in the last 200 years where a whole Islamic ottoman empire crumbled , when Ismailis splintered and as recently Muslims butchered their own, and our most recent era the mind boggling corruption in dawoodi faith

if he is waiting for another rise of the Islamic caliphate then that will be be years, if not hundred away and hence your Diai should stop wishing and pleading

Meanwhile we will have to solve our problems ourselves

And if he does turn up then he better start getting ready for all hands on the deck.

[Al Zulfiqar]

1. humne toh hamari dor Dai al Mutlaq ke haath me de di,

2. Tum reformists kya karoge ye bataao jabki tumhara maamla tumne khud hi apne haath mein le liya he.

1. kaunsi dor? hizaar ke naadi ki? isi liye tumhari hizaar har roz utarti hai..!!

2. hamara mamla agar hum apne haath mein nahi lenge, to kya kisi aur ke haath mein denge? jaise aap logon ne nadi ka dor de diya hai?

[humanbeing]

How would Dawoodi Bohra Dai verify true Imam ? Now to answer the right question posted at wrong place, Kothari agent will advise to attend sabaks.

In short !

Aisa Sawaal poochne waale ko khopche me lo, pyaar se samjhaao. Buddhu ban jaaye to Sheikh ka title do, warna daawat ka dushman bana ke usko khatam kar do.

[mnoorani]

Adam bhai, Progticide bhai and all other Mumineen,

Jab Imam-uz-zaman a.s. zuhoor karenge to Syedina burhanuddin / Muffaddal bhaisahab unke Imam hone ka iqrar karenge he karenge - is baat ki kya guarantee he?

Badrijanab a.k.a Mubarak a.k.a Doctor,

Hamari fikr chhod, humne toh hamari dor Dai al Mutlaq ke haath me de di, ab hamara jo hona ho humein uski fikr nahi, hum hamare Dai ke saath he toh jalta hua sehra bhi hamare liye khushnuma chaman ki maanind he. isliye Imam zuhoor honge toh Dai pehchan karenge ki nahi karenge ye sab tum socho, humein toh kal bhi iske baare mein sochne ki zaroorat nahi thi, aaj bhi nahi he aur aane wale kal mein bhi nahi hogi. Ye Dai ka kaam he, so hum kyon fikr karein jab ye department unka he, Dai jaane aur Imamuz zaman jaane, ye unka aapas ka maamla he.

Lekin ab tum reformists bataao ke tum Imam ki pehchaan kaise karoge jabki tumne Dai ko apne maamle se alag kar diya he aur Imam se directly contact establish karne ki baat karte ho. Direct contact toh tab establish karoge na jab pehle The True Imam ki sahi pehchaan karoge. Isliye DBs ka kya hoga nahi hoga ye chhodo, hamare liye to Dai jaane aur Imam jaane, ye unke aapas ki baat he.

Tum reformists kya karoge ye bataao jabki tumhara maamla tumne khud hi apne haath mein le liya he. Toh apna mamla apne haath mein lene ke pehle is masle par kuch toh socha hoga tumhare leaders ne ya socha hi nahi. Beech aasmaan mein JumboJet ke Pilot ko Utaar toh diya, aur ab Headlight ka switch doondh rahe ho kyunki aage baadalon mein kuch dikh nahi raha, landing ki ko baat hi chhodo!

So the question still continues to remain unanswered: How would the reformists verify The True Imam?

The main question now remains.
Which liquor selling hotel the Priestly family own and we still dont know about it ??????

[Adam]

Well, no answers to the easy question to the Proggies have been given.

It can then be understood that the follow don't believe in the existence of an Imam, thus the matter of identifying him is pointless.
P.S Anajmi and Muslim first are of Wahabi/Salafi beliefs, so they're a different breed from the above.

The following do not believe in the existence of the Imam (referring to their posts):
mnoorani
Humsafar
badrijanab
Al Zulfiqar
Humsafar
humanbeing

So, The True Imam - How would you verify?
They wont, because they don't believe in the Imam.

Problem solved

[humanbeing]

How would Dawoodi Bohra Dai verify true Imam ?

[mnoorani]

Well, no answers to the easy question to the Proggies have been given.

It can then be understood that the follow don't believe in the existence of an Imam, thus the matter of identifying him is pointless.
P.S Anajmi and Muslim first are of Wahabi/Salafi beliefs, so they're a different breed from the above.

The following do not believe in the existence of the Imam (referring to their posts):
mnoorani
Humsafar
badrijanab
Al Zulfiqar
Humsafar
humanbeing

So, The True Imam - How would you verify?
They wont, because they don't believe in the Imam.

Problem solved

That still does not answer my question. How can a masoom allow and endorse the haraam activities like removal of a lady's corpse from a grave and tearing out the shroud ? How can a masoom allow a creation of a riba business like the mercantile bank. How can a masoom allow riba khor in his own house and how can a masoom allow and endorse bloody violence in the Udaipur Mosque,that also in Ramadaan. Also do not forget the liquor business of the masoom.
What is the need of a heavy PR for a masoom . We all know the hype created for the mojiza of the lady's cancer operation. That was only to counter the bad negative PR of teh Muffy's running away to fat ziyafats in Sri Lanka from Karachi where his own followers were dead and in Hospitals and in a grip of fear and panic. he was neeed there most but chose instead to be greeted by fat envelopes.
The masoom do not need a PR team!

[Bohra spring]

Mnoorani by now you would know that the Diai only does these actions on the imams instruction so why blame the Diai of course he is Masoom , it is the abdes imam who should be held to account

Abdes let us agree Diai is Masoom , so if he is Masson who should we hold to account

All the stuff you and I get upset with such as hunting, ziafats , FGM , money laundering, lying, are not Diai actions, he says he is just a gulam of the imam !

It cannot be both ways, if Diai is Masoom he could not have done these atrocities , unless he wants to protect the imam and take on the blame?

Adam yoopi you have finally cracked the mystery of who believes and does not , so now what next for you and your abde kothar pr team ? Go and get raza to discover another mystery ? We await you eagerly

You may get a free title if you are a mulla and wear a pagri and some silly silver lapel pin? Waah waah fateh mubin will be recited, takbir, SMS zindabad will be screamed as you enter to collect your rs500 shawl and do sajada shukr to your god rep.

[Adam]

@mnoorani
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this thread is asking a simple question.
Don't know the answer? Keep quiet, or seek the answer from your leaders (who ever they are).

The following do not believe in the existence of the Imam (referring to their posts):
mnoorani
Humsafar
badrijanab
Al Zulfiqar
Humsafar
humanbeing

So, The True Imam - How would you verify?
They wont, because they don't believe in the Imam.

Problem solved

[Humsafar]

DB Dai: This is our old/new/original/true/infalible/mustakar/mustauda/haazir/naazir Imam.
Reformists: OK, that's great.
DB Dai: Do you accept him as our Imam?
Reformists: Yes, we accept him as our Imam.

[Adam]

Oh okay then.
I'll add you to a new category.

HUMSAFAR
1. Doesn't believe in an Imam
2. Ridicules the concept entirely
3. Thinks he should believe in an Imam, but since he's so lost, he just doesn't know what to say or what to do.


I understand.
It's a disease many people suffer from. It's called 'ignorant & confused'.

[Humsafar]

Dear abde idol-worshipper Adam,
I'm talking about "reformists", not just about me.

[mnoorani]

@mnoorani
Sorry to burst your bubble, but this thread is asking a simple question.
Don't know the answer? Keep quiet, or seek the answer from your leaders (who ever they are).

The following do not believe in the existence of the Imam (referring to their posts):
mnoorani
Humsafar
badrijanab
Al Zulfiqar
Humsafar
humanbeing

So, The True Imam - How would you verify?
They wont, because they don't believe in the Imam.

Problem solved

LOL, You really beleive that the Imam will need the endorsement of a person involved in HARAAM ACTIVITIES AS MENTIONED EARLIER.

[Adam]

@mmnoorani (Only him, since i'm answering direct to HIS question)

LOL, You really beleive that the Imam will need the endorsement of a person involved in HARAAM ACTIVITIES AS MENTIONED EARLIER.

That is YOUR opinion. Fine.
You're mentioning the problem (according to you) but don't provide the solution, or your own standpoint.
1. Do you believe there is an Imam?
If yes, how would YOU VERIFY the Imam?

Two simple questions, not too hard to answer, if you aren't confused that is.

[Al Zulfiqar]

adam,

we will be closely watching and monitoring your backside. your backside is the ultimate barometer for identifying the true imam. in fact, its reputation has spread so far and wide, that even the aliya bohras, adtalisiyas, suleimani bohras and some sunni groups have trained powerful telescopes on your butt. did you know that your posterior is being tracked on GPS?

obviously there must be something about your backside for us to watch it so intently. it belongs to a great believer and scholar, an authority on the hidden imam and identifying him when he appears in person. your confidence and knowledge on this subject is mind-blowing. since we progressives are totally confused, in your own words, it makes the job so much simpler for us to be behind you and wait for the signal when your backside leaps up high in the air and waves about, like moby dick, in sajda to the hazar imam. thats our signal.

if its up, we go down... true imam identified!

[humanbeing]

How would Dawoodi Bohra Dai verify true Imam ?

Why would there be a need to verify the true Imam ? He is Wajid-Al Wujood but in seclusion. So its only matters of declaring out in open. So another question, how Imam would be declared by dawoodi bohra dai ?

Declaring on TV channels is ruled out because Kothari agent already mocked this medium if Imam had to declare / appear through this mode. But it can be done on bohra channel, which relays video on large screens across the markaz and masjids around the world. Isnt that similar to breaking news (Imam-found/appeared) ? If other Imam believers did it, Kothari Inc gonna mock it, if kothar did it, its a technological adaptation of spiritual awareness.

[pheonix]

How would Dawoodi Bohra Dai verify true Imam ?

Why would there be a need to verify the true Imam ? He is Wajid-Al Wujood but in seclusion. So its only matters of declaring out in open. So another question, how Imam would be declared by dawoodi bohra dai ?

Declaring on TV channels is ruled out because Kothari agent already mocked this medium if Imam had to declare / appear through this mode. But it can be done on bohra channel, which relays video on large screens across the markaz and masjids around the world. Isnt that similar to breaking news (Imam-found/appeared) ? If other Imam believers did it, Kothari Inc gonna mock it, if kothar did it, its a technological adaptation of spiritual awareness.

Again, a stupid argument, Any one can declare (and has declared) himself a Imam and a huge throng of people has followed.
How would you differentiate between the quacks and the true one.
The trouble with the illiterate(in dawat ilm) reformists is that they do not understand the concept of Imamat at all.
They think that the hidden Imam will appear as some supernatural being who would fly in the air, walk on water, talk with animals
and will show miracles left, right and center so that it will be impossible not to recognize.
The True Imam will certainly display miracles left, right and center but they certainly wont be of the nature you imagine,
and you would certainly refuteand deny them(like you refute the miracles of the DAI).
The question "How would you verify?" is not even relevant to the proggies
as they have no idea what and who an Imam is.

[mnoorani]

@mmnoorani (Only him, since i'm answering direct to HIS question)

LOL, You really beleive that the Imam will need the endorsement of a person involved in HARAAM ACTIVITIES AS MENTIONED EARLIER.

That is YOUR opinion. Fine.
You're mentioning the problem (according to you) but don't provide the solution, or your own standpoint.
1. Do you believe there is an Imam?
If yes, how would YOU VERIFY the Imam?

Two simple questions, not too hard to answer, if you aren't confused that is.

Dear Adam,
Yes I do beleive in the Imama.
But as of now I do not know how would I verify him.Perhaps there will be a divine interpretation.
However I do know that the Imam will not be identified by a person who has worked against the religion of Islam, and nullified the Holy Kaaba in Mecca by calling himself the haqiqi Kaaba, Surely a person who has rejected the Holiness of the Quran by calling himself the BOLTA Quran , will not be the one to be truusted for the Imams verification.

[humanbeing]

The trouble with the illiterate(in dawat ilm) reformists is that they do not understand the concept of Imamat at all.

Can you explain ?

They think that the hidden Imam will appear as some supernatural being who would fly in the air, walk on water, talk with animals and will show miracles left, right and center so that it will be impossible not to recognize.

They = Reformist did they say Imam will appear as some supernatural being who would fly in the air, walk on water, talk with animals and will show miracles left, right and center so that it will be impossible not to recognize ?

The True Imam will certainly display miracles left, right and center but they certainly wont be of the nature you imagine,

What nature of Miracle will True Imam display ?

and you would certainly refute and deny them(like you refute the miracles of the DAI).

What are the miracles of Dai, that are refuted ? once you elaborate on the miracles by Dai we can discuss if they are believable or refutable.

The question "How would you verify?" is not even relevant to the proggies as they have no idea what and who an Imam is.

Does common bohra people know who and what Imam is ?

[SBM]

we dont know anything about Him, but he is constantly aware of everything to do with us and Dawat, i.e. His real Dawat and His genuine Dai, with whom His channels of communication are established as per requirement.

SO PROGTICIDE YOU STARTED THIS THREAD AND YOUR GURU ADAM KEPT ON REPEATING, SINCE THE IMAM IS AWARE OF HIS GENUINE DAI AND DAI IS IN TOUCH WITH THE TRUE IMAM WHY DO NOT YOU ASK THIS IN YOUR SABAK AND RELEASE THE INFORMATION BEFORE ALAVI OR SULEMANI OR NARIJAN DAI CAN DISPUTE THE IMAM IN SATR

[progticide]

we dont know anything about Him, but he is constantly aware of everything to do with us and Dawat, i.e. His real Dawat and His genuine Dai, with whom His channels of communication are established as per requirement.

SINCE THE IMAM IS AWARE OF HIS GENUINE DAI AND DAI IS IN TOUCH WITH THE TRUE IMAM WHY DO NOT YOU ASK THIS IN YOUR SABAK AND RELEASE THE INFORMATION BEFORE ALAVI OR SULEMANI OR NARIJAN DAI CAN DISPUTE THE IMAM IN SATR

Kamzarf Munafiq,
Sab ko apne jaisa gaddaar aur Namak Haram samajhta he. Tere jaise munafiq jis thali mein khaate he usme hi thook dete he.

[canadian]

SINCE THE IMAM IS AWARE OF HIS GENUINE DAI AND DAI IS IN TOUCH WITH THE TRUE IMAM WHY DO NOT YOU ASK THIS IN YOUR SABAK AND RELEASE THE INFORMATION BEFORE ALAVI OR SULEMANI OR NARIJAN DAI CAN DISPUTE THE IMAM IN SATR

Kamzarf Munafiq,
Sab ko apne jaisa gaddaar aur Namak Haram samajhta he. Tere jaise munafiq jis thali mein khaate he usme hi thook dete he.

What kind of people are these followers of the syedna! When they cannot argue rationally, they start abusing!

[Al Zulfiqar]

bhai canadian,

this approach is taught to them in the sabaks. 1. first spread misinformation. 2. then follow it up with lies, deceit and trickery. 3. use obscure scriptures to impress, confuse and bamboozle your opponents and detractors 4, deliberately misquote and misinterpret out of context. 5. if that doesnt work, then call the opponents - munafiq, mushrik, kamzarf, gadha, idiot, namak haraam, muddai, etc etc. 6. if that doesn't scare them, then abuse and yell, indulge in verbal assaults, write to media, organise public protests, buy t.v. time and bribe politicians, police etc. 7. finally, all else having failed, carry knives and chains into masjid and beat up their detractors senseless, not sparing even their women and children.

if caught in the act and ostracised and reprimanded, let the dai go on air on apologise on TV.

wah bhai wah! su eni niraali shaan chhe!!

[humanbeing]

Phoenix / Progiticide

Where are you ! Any answers to questions asked ?

[Maqbool]

SINCE THE IMAM IS AWARE OF HIS GENUINE DAI AND DAI IS IN TOUCH WITH THE TRUE IMAM WHY DO NOT YOU ASK THIS IN YOUR SABAK AND RELEASE THE INFORMATION BEFORE ALAVI OR SULEMANI OR NARIJAN DAI CAN DISPUTE THE IMAM IN SATR

Kamzarf Munafiq,
Sab ko apne jaisa gaddaar aur Namak Haram samajhta he. Tere jaise munafiq jis thali mein khaate he usme hi thook dete he.

SBM
AApne tir nisanepe mara hai. Keep it up.

[Adam]

@mmnoorani

Dear Adam,
Yes I do beleive in the Imama.
But as of now I do not know how would I verify him.Perhaps there will be a divine interpretation.

Thank you for answering to the point.
Again, you mention the problem, but not the solution (even when you hinted at our Syedna).
Your above statement is nothing new. And you've made it very clear you lack the basics of belief in the Imamat let alone Dawoodi Bohra belief.
Your word "perhaps", clearly show the doubts in these foundations.

You supposedly believe in the 21 Imams and the current Imams in Satr.
If you did believe in them, you would know:
1. How Imam Mehdi AS was verified to the people of his time through The Dai.
2. That the 21st Imam appointed The Dai Muthlaq to act on his behalf in his absence, and these Dais are infallible, and will verify The Imam during his Zuhoor. The current Dai is the 52nd and his name is Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin TUS, he is the spiritual head of the Dawoodi Bohra Community.

If you didn't accept the above two statements, then your words "Yes I do beleive in the Imama" are FALSE.

Please clarify.
Maybe you can start by saying what your definition of the Imama is?

[badrijanab]

1. How Imam Mehdi AS was verified to the people of his time through The Dai.

Adam,

You are misrepresenting the facts.

Dai a falliable slave of Imam (as per your own words Dai during Zuhoor is falliable) - Dai will verify his master the Imam!!! Whom are you trying to fool? IMAM KISI GHULAM FALLIABLE DAI KA MOHTAZ NAHI HE KI DAI IMAM KO VERIFY KARE. You are speaking lie as you are habitual like your masters.

In Sijilmasa, Dai Abu Abudullah was first time introduced to Imam Mehdi a.s. and was ordered by Imam to do 'munadi' (speaking loudly in public to let public know this is Imam Mehdi a.s.). Verifying means to test and pass if the claimant is Imam or not. Aapke example me Dai Abu Abdullah; Imam ko pehchante hi nahi he, verify kaha se karenge! Dai ne to Sijilmasa me first time Imam se mulaqat ki. Dai ne jab khud Imam Mehdi ke dekha nahi to pehchanange kese, forget about "VERIFYING"!

Adam sahab, you have done blasphemy in honor of Imam by making Imam mohtaz of Dai's verification.

[Kaka Akela]

Imam will be an Imam for all Muslim Ummah, not just for Dawoodi Bohras. Of course the Dai is our current leader (in the absence of Imam) so when Dai introduces the Imam to us (the DBs only) then we all will bow down to him in sajda (if he is the true Imam he will stop us from doing sajda), but to the rest of ummah, the Imam will be "azhar min as shams" glaring as bright as the sun and no one needs to introduce him to the ummah. When DBs say that the Dai only will show us the Imam this is what they mean as there have already been a few imposters and pretenders.

[seeker110]

Yad chie moula chand par nazar awta hatha.Tou thai sake Imam bhi........................Technicolor.

[porus]

Earlier in this thread, I wrote as follows:

"What we have just done is to pull the rug under the feet of all the abdes by destroying their argument that only the Dai can point out the 'true' Imam. The success for establishing the foundations of Fatimid Khalifat in Ifriqiya owes entirely to the efforts of Dai Abu Abdallah al-Shii. While he had not met the Imam until he helped rescue him from his arrest at Sijilmasa, he had operated under Imam's instructions conveyed to him by a third party. (Yes, Adam was correct in stating that the Dai had not met the Imam).

Even at the instant of rescuing the Imam, Dai Abu Abdallah could not recognize him and had to wait for Imam to reveal himself to him and those assembled. That is documented.

We can draw two conclusions from this episode.

1. Dai Abu Abdallah, despite being the greatest Dai of Imam Mahdi, was not infallible.
2. Imam reveals himself under his own authority and does not depend on any Dai to point him out.

One of the reasons why the Dai fell out with Imam was that after having had absolute authority, he was relegated to playing second fiddle to Imam. He resented this. The other reasons are more complex having to do with expectations and prophecies that were current about the Imam at the time. The Dai felt that the Imam did not live up to expectations in establishing justice and order in society and was not quick enough to engage in overthrowing the Abbasid Khalifat. After all, according to abde belief about ayat 36:12, Imam is supposed to be an extraordinary individual in whom Allah had vested everything.

Thus the entire abde argument that only the Dai can point out the Imam is blown completely out of water.

And MF is correct. Having enjoyed absolute power for over a century, the current Dai and his family are unlikely to entertain a rival in the shape of an Imam. Thus he is likely to remain hidden for abdes for ever."

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... asa#p94135