The barbaric form of iddah

[AbdeYamani]

Please explain how there is "room no for 'democracy' in Islam". I'm really curious to know. Until then I'll defer my comments.
We reformists are electing nobody to lead us. We elect office bearers to run the affairs of the jamat and other institutions.

Every Abrahamic religion and most monotheistic religions have been introduced or revealed through a person chosen by the divine power ... in our case, it is an Imam whose position is constant throughout history.. child after father.. divinely ordained.. or in terms of prophets who are also divinely ordained.. and the wasii.. who is appointed by the prophet...
If you see the Bohra system as well.. Syedna Zoeb was appointed by Hurat-al-Maleka, was was also appointed by Imam Aamir (AS)... all local ministers are appointed by the Dai and his succeeding Dai is also appointed by the Dai...It's a top to bottom approach.. those at the bottom do not decide who takes the reins...

You can say that the Khalifa system after the demise of Rasul-Allah was in a way a democratic system but we don't accept them or their position anyways... it might be acceptable from a political point of view but certainly not from a spiritual one...those who believed Ali (AS) to be the rightful successor went to him only...

The whole point of a spiritual leader is to show the people who are astray the path towards righteousness.. how can those who are astray decide who knows the correct path? that's like saying a student is asked to decide which one of his two teachers is more knowledgeable when his own knowledge is inferior to both of theirs....

Now if you say that you elect someone to take care of the admin work then that's completely fine.... you obviously have to appoint someone to take care of it... but what do you do for spiritual guidance and religious purposes? who do you follow and to what extent is his word authoritative? This is not a rhetorical question. I would actually like to know this...

To everyone and to no one... their situation is pathetic... just search for youth on youtube and you will see how sorry state of their affairs are...

But hey.. they have their justice, equality and accountability... guess who else has that.... many states and communities around the world...

[Biradar]

Every Abrahamic religion and most monotheistic religions have been introduced or revealed through a person chosen by the divine power ... in our case, it is an Imam whose position is constant throughout history.. child after father.. divinely ordained.. or in terms of prophets who are also divinely ordained.. and the wasii.. who is appointed by the prophet...
If you see the Bohra system as well.. Syedna Zoeb was appointed by Hurat-al-Maleka, was was also appointed by Imam Aamir (AS)... all local ministers are appointed by the Dai and his succeeding Dai is also appointed by the Dai...It's a top to bottom approach.. those at the bottom do not decide who takes the reins...

The whole point of a spiritual leader is to show the people who are astray the path towards righteousness.. how can those who are astray decide who knows the correct path? that's like saying a student is asked to decide which one of his two teachers is more knowledgeable when his own knowledge is inferior to both of theirs....

Please mention where it says in the Qur'an in an unambiguous way that there is "an Imam whose position is constant throughout history." Also, please enlighten where this Imam is at present and why he has vanished and hiding for nearly 1000 years. Is he terrified or does he even exist? What is the cause of his mysterious disappearance.

Further you say:

"Syedna Zoeb was appointed by Hurat-al-Maleka, was was also appointed by Imam Aamir (AS)"

So what? This happened 1000 years ago. Why is this relevant today except for an historical curiosity. How do you know that these appointment have any relevance to the modern life any longer? The position of the da'i is likely no longer of much relevance. None of the da'i contenders have an iota of spirituality to authoritatively lead us. Anyway, there is no need for such leadership any more in any case.

Spiritual advice is fine. Leadership not so much. Times have changed. We are no longer slaves of some guy who wears white clothes and recites some prayers in Arabic (which he does not understand himself) and then turns around to fleece us. Are you seriously suggesting that the local amil is a spiritual person and can advise you on such matters? Have you seen the characters who occupy these positions?

BTW: As I said in my other post. The amil and mullah needs to be on the bottom and sit in the corner and do his thing when asked but nothing more. Best leave the administration and other serious matters to competent people.

[kseeker]

@Humsafar and @Biradar...
Just because I think an authoritarian system is the right one, doesn't mean I condone the administration of TS MB MS KQ or TF in any way...
I don't believe they are the correct ones..but just because they are not correct, it does not mean any or all authoritarian systems are incorrect or flawed...so I won't go into the comments on the mullahs, corruption etc because I am with you on it.. but let's not blame the system just become some of them have abused it....

Even Ismaili Mustali Shias believe that all believers are equal.. Dais will be judged just as harshly and fairly as any other human being will.. regardless of whether he is a muslim or not.. but yet, all believers are not equal in the sense that two people can have the exact same beliefs but their deeds and the dedication with which they followed the tenants of Islam will differentiate them.. it is the current clergy which has created this caste system within the community.. it is not an Ismaili Musta-Ali thing...

Like I said earlier, if you are using democracy for purely an administration purpose and the spirituality part is managed on an individual basis, it is more than fine.. but some of the things what the progressives wanted like being answerable to the people was simply not Islamic...on a financial level, yes it is...any rightful leader should and will stand up to interrogation of finances... but on a spiritual level.. it is not possible.. you can't choose to call someone old fashioned, moronic or a die hard fundamentalist just because you are not privy to what he tells you to do or feel uncomfortable or if it doesn't live up to ones 'modern' western standards.

You don't like what someone says from a spiritual standpoint, move on..

[Humsafar]

@Humsafar and @Biradar...
Just because I think an authoritarian system is the right one, doesn't mean I condone the administration of TS MB MS KQ or TF in any way...
I don't believe they are the correct ones..but just because they are not correct, it does not mean any or all authoritarian systems are incorrect or flawed...so I won't go into the comments on the mullahs, corruption etc because I am with you on it.. but let's not blame the system just become some of them have abused it....

Even Ismaili Mustali Shias believe that all believers are equal.. Dais will be judged just as harshly and fairly as any other human being will.. regardless of whether he is a muslim or not.. but yet, all believers are not equal in the sense that two people can have the exact same beliefs but their deeds and the dedication with which they followed the tenants of Islam will differentiate them.. it is the current clergy which has created this caste system within the community.. it is not an Ismaili Musta-Ali thing...

Like I said earlier, if you are using democracy for purely an administration purpose and the spirituality part is managed on an individual basis, it is more than fine.. but some of the things what the progressives wanted like being answerable to the people was simply not Islamic...on a financial level, yes it is...any rightful leader should and will stand up to interrogation of finances... but on a spiritual level.. it is not possible.. you can't choose to call someone old fashioned, moronic or a die hard fundamentalist just because you are not privy to what he tells you to do or feel uncomfortable or if it doesn't live up to ones 'modern' western standards.

You don't like what someone says from a spiritual standpoint, move on..

All authoritarian systems are incorrect and flawed. No human being no matter how great or how divine has any authority (political, spiritual whatever) over another. Yes human societies need to have certain rules and laws for their proper functioning and may need leaders and institutions to govern them. But those leaders and institutions are not God-given, they must derive their authority from the people they govern, they must have the sanction of the people they govern. If not, their authority is illegitimate and their power dictatorial. I do not want to go into the philosophical and political debate over nature of authority and power, so let's agree to disagree.

I think you have little understanding of the progressive movement. It is not concerned with the religious aspect (I'll not say "spiritual" because there's nothing of the sort left in there) of Bohras. It only concerns itself with administrative and governance aspect of the dawat and how it exploits and oppresses Bohras.

[Humsafar]

To everyone and to no one... their situation is pathetic... just search for youth on youtube and you will see how sorry state of their affairs are...

But hey.. they have their justice, equality and accountability... guess who else has that.... many states and communities around the world...

Hmm I wonder what about us you find so pathetic. Is it that we don't look pretty? That we are not dolled up in white uniform or colourful ridas? Surprise, surprise we look like ordinary human beings and some of us are poor and some of us not that educated... but that doesn't make us any less worthy of dignity or justice or accountability (that you so mock). Our affairs may look messy because we do not dance to the same tune. And yes we have our own issues and our problems, so what?

Hamari faqiri hame aziz hai
Tumhara ghurur tumhe mubarak

[AbdeYamani]

To everyone and to no one... their situation is pathetic... just search for youth on youtube and you will see how sorry state of their affairs are...

But hey.. they have their justice, equality and accountability... guess who else has that.... many states and communities around the world...

Hmm I wonder what about us you find so pathetic. Is it that we don't look pretty? That we are not dolled up in white uniform or colourful ridas? Surprise, surprise we look like ordinary human beings and some of us are poor and some of us not that educated... but that doesn't make us any less worthy of dignity or justice or accountability (that you so mock). Our affairs may look messy because we do not dance to the same tune. And yes we have our own issues and our problems, so what?

Hamari faqiri hame aziz hai
Tumara ghrur tumhe mubarak

Apologies, I was certainly out of line this time...Sorry

[Humsafar]

Apologies, I was certainly out of line this time...Sorry

Accepted. Appreciate your honesty.