State your belief

[Conscíous]

DAMN YOU ADAM .. Some of us, had so high hopes on you.........., but it seems like you let us down

[Adam]

@PORUS


Its is getting extremely tiresom that you're not willing to answer simple questions about your sources.

No doubt, the Quran is the primary source. But the tafseer is very imp.
You mentioned the ayat of Tatheer, proving the Imamat of Panjathan.
Fair enough ( that is our DB belief also, until Imams and Dais)

But the Quran doesn't mention their names in that ayat, WHICH book, teacher, authroity gave you this tafseer? Which would you be following?
Not that you should care, but the Sunnis and Wahabis would definitle disagree with you.

Secondly, you mentioned Ghadeer e Khum. Again we DBs believe the same thing, but since its not mentioned explicitly in the Quran, and because you don't totally trust Fatimid books, WHERE did u accept this from? Which book, tafseer, authority.

That's all I've been asking.
Whether you like it or not, you've taken it from SOMEONE or SOMETHING, or SOME BOOK.
State your sources, authority, and why you accept that word.

If you asked me, I would say all these Zikrs are found in Daim al Islaam, Uyoon al Akbar etc. These are OUR DB sources, which we have complete faith in for the foundation of our beliefs, in accordance to the Qurans teaching.
What's yours?

[Humsafar]

Adam, nobody is interested in the personal beliefs of porus, or anyone else's for that matter.
What interests us is this fundamental issue: show us the sources, passages, tafseers, teacher and whatever to prove that the Dai is equal to the Imam. And if and when you do that, please show how the actions of the current Dai are not in violation of Quran. This is fundamental because you pretend Dawoodi Bohras have built your whole political and theological structure on this anti-Bohra and anti-Ismaili (and ultimately anti-Islamic) assumption that the Dai is equal to the Imam.
It is very important for you to prove this, otherwise your pretend Dawat has no "core belief" leg to stand on.

[Adam]

@HUMSAFAR
Porus s beliefs are not your concern, true, but they are infact in violation of yours beliefs ( which u cliam to have of the Fatimi Ismaili Belief).

For the sources, I have stated the author and the book. I currently do not have a copy, but I'm sure you ll find it in your Proggy library.
It is a lengthy book,.

That source is considered an insight into that belied of the Dai of Satr. Sorry, but that's the best I could do.

Still awaiting authority questions I've asked many times from ALL users, sources and why?
(No need to provide the books, just state who you follow)

Stop dodging this question.

[SBM]

(No need to provide the books, just state who you follow)

Narendra Modi who is anointed by Kothar. hope that answers your question and if you question my loyalty to Narendra Modi then you have to question the wisdom of the Dai and Kothar who have anointed him and showered with him with gifts and NOORANI SHAWL.Some of the DBs with the Raza are even touching his feet and attending his fast in masses.

[Hussain_KSA]

Very well said

Kudos to Bro Humsafar and Porus.

Unconditionally Seconded

[anajmi]

(No need to provide the books, just state who you follow)

Allah, his prophet (saw) and the Quran.

[Humsafar]

For the sources, I have stated the author and the book. I currently do not have a copy, but I'm sure you ll find it in your Proggy library.
It is a lengthy book,.
That source is considered an insight into that belied of the Dai of Satr. Sorry, but that's the best I could do.

Adam, we'll wait till you get a copy and can provide detailed reference for your claim that the Dai is equal to the Imam. We'll wait as long as it takes. We're very patient. In the meantime, you could try to explain these two points:
1) Why do we need the Imam (in satr or otherwise) if the Dai is equal to him?
2) Justify the actions of the Dai (even if he is equal the Imam) which are at odds with the teachings of the Quran.

[Safiuddin]

Well, if I had known that the high Adam was conducting
an academic study i would have raced to be a part of it.

[ghulam muhammed]

Excerpts of an article which is relevant to the current debate (copied from the net) :-

“The Freedom Of Islamic Da'wah Today” Is It True?!!

The words between the quotation marks above is a phrase we often hear from a majority of the dai'es and fuqahas of this age who show up in front of the ummah and become their role models. The freedom that they mean is the flexibility without restriction and surveillance, as well as oppression or pressure and the judicial trap of the kafir who are in power today.

If the utterance points out at something, then it points out at the disappearance of the understanding of the laa ilaaha illallah and its consequences, from the mind of those people, as well as the disappearance of the nature of the tawheed da'wah (propagation of monotheism) from their understandings.

The Ulama' Rabbani (divinely guided ulama's) and the callers of tawheed that is haq will experience a variety of ill-treatments from the Fir’auns of the nations in this age and their apparatuses, because the duat tawheed that is haq will always invite people to submit to Allah and His laws, as well as inviting them to be free from the thaghuts and their laws, their ideologies and the philosophies of their kafir leaders, and inviting the ummah to be ready to make sacrifices in the way of Allah in confronting the ranks of the wicked Fir’aun.

With such kind of da'wah and the incidents that befall its adherents and callers, there takes place a clear separation between the ansar tawheed and the ansar thaghut, and that is the meaning of the words of the Angels, “Muhammad divides between the humans.” [HR Al-Bukhari]. And the haqiqa (reality) of tawheed is also clear in the eyes of the humans, so there is no vagueness.

Indeed, the carrying out of the tawheed da'wah before mankind is a maslahat (advantage) which has no mafsadah (disadvantage) as long as those who are carrying it out are istiqomah when receiving the risks, and death upon it is a great fortune and martyrdom. Indeed, all who professes the tawheed and demand the authorities to implement the law of Allah, and then they got killed as the thaghut rulers reject that law of Allah, then that is better and more fortunate than living comfortably and safely under the umbrella of the thaghut leaders and their laws. Hasn't Allah Ta’ala says in the story of the massacres of the Muwahhidin (people of tawheed) of Ashabul Ukhdud by the kafir ruler. Allah says:

“That is the great attainment.” [Al-Buruj: 11]

The tawheed da'wah requires the clarification to mankind of the obligation to be free from (having nothing to do with) them, the obligation to hate and be an enemy to them, which is the Millah of Ibrahim (Abrahamic Tradition), just as Allah says:

“There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone."” [Al-Mumtahanah: 4]

While He commanded us to follow this Millah of Ibrahim:

“So follow the Millah of Ibrahim, inclining toward truth.” [Ali Imran: 95]

And only the foolish and stupid do not like this Millah of Ibrahim:

“And who would be averse to the Millah of Ibrahim except one who makes a fool of himself.” [Al-Baqarah: 130]

Yeas, only the stupid people bargain away the tawheed, which is the principal capital for reaching paradise, with the pleasure of the thaghut rulers who gives false pleasures in the world, which will lead them to hell later.

The tawheed da'wah which is haq requires the dai'es to clarify to the society that the obedience and loyalty to these kafir rulers is the mother of the losses in this world and the akhirah (hereafter):

“O you who have believed, if you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back on your heels, and you will [then] become losers..” [Ali Imran: 149]

Because making the kafir people as leaders, to whom the obedience and loyalty are given, is a contradiction to the meaning of iman to Allah, His Prophet and His Book:

“And if they had believed in Allah and the Prophet and in what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them as allies.” [Al-Maidah: 81]

And other major issues related to the application of tawheed to the world of reality.

Sure, it's free for others besides tawheed… free for the majelis (assembly) of dzikir… free for the fiqh education… free for any kind of lectures as long as it does not touch on the subjects mentioned earlier… free for the dai'es who are the deceivers of the ummah… free for the proficient speakers who are the lickers of the rulers… free for those accursed people who hide al-haq when the ummah are in need of it…While those people who say the words “It's free to conduct Islamic da'wah today, unlike in the times of Rasul in the past” are not free from the type of dai'es that deceive or bootlick or are accursed.

How are they not dubbed the deceiver of the ummah, when they display before the ummah the murtad rulers in the presentation of Ulil Amri who must be obeyed?...

Indeed, displaying rotten items in the good and beautiful presentation is a deception. Rasulullah said:

“Whoever deceives, then he is not one of us.” [HR Muslim]

This hadith is about fraud on the merchandise for sale, then how about the fraud on the dien and tawheed?!!

How are they not called the lickers of the rulers, when they never comment on the atrocities and destruction and tyranny of the rulers and their system which is obviously visible, and instead they tend to justify or giving the excuses of udzur (valid exemption)? But whenever there are Muwahhidin people who are not in agreement with them, whether it be rightfully in Shar’ie or ijtihadi matters or confusions where the motivation is the ghirah (jealousy, enthusiasm and zest) for the dien, they will fill their mouths and lectures and sermons with denials and blasphemies as if they are the defenders of the haqiqi Islam….

And how are they not accursed when they position themselves as dai'es and callers to the religion of Islam but they do not convey the issues of tawheed that very urgently needs to be explained to the ummah, as many people have fallen into the things that invalidates the tawheed and their Islam without them knowing that those things have plunged themselves into hell. Allah Ta’ala says:

“Indeed, those who conceal what We sent down of clear proofs and guidance after We made it clear for the people in the Scripture - those are cursed by Allah and cursed by those who curse. Except for those who repent and correct themselves and make evident [what they concealed]….” [Al-Baqarah: 159-160]

Whereas the issue of tawheed is the very first issue and most vividly described in Al-Kitab (Al-Qur’an) which is not vague except to the people whose hearts are blind and deviant. Allah Ta’ala says:

“And thus do We detail the verses, and [thus] the way of the criminals will become evident.” [Al-An’am: 55]

Whereas the reality that is lived by all people in every time is that, the urgent question needs an immediate answer, although they did not ask it orally, because there are people who die every day who could be bringing the sin of shirk and kufr, whether they be the enforcers of the law or the people who are loyal to this kafir law and government or other kufr…

When the tawheed that is haq is conveyed to the ummah, then the reality of the Angels' words, “Muhammad divides between the humans,” will be evident in the midst of the ummah, where the ummah will split into two camps, namely the camp that accept the tawheed and free themselves from the thaghut and their administration, and the camp that reject the tawheed and are loyal to the thaghut and their administration…

And the thaghut would be addressing it in the same manner as Fir’aun's attitude towards Musa ‘alaihissalam:

“Indeed, those are but a small band. And indeed, they are enraging us. And indeed, we are a cautious society.” [Ash-Shu`ara: 54-56]

They are a handful of people who incite the public to hate and be anti-government, so all must be vigilant, make sure not to be incited and brainwashed.

Or the accusation by Fir’aun that it's an invitation to replace the ideology and destructive to the existing order of the law and society. Allah says about Fir’aun:

“Indeed, I fear that he will change your religion or that he will cause corruption in the land.” [Ghāfir: 26]

We are only inviting you sirs to explain the haqiqa of tawheed that is haq along with its relation to the reality to this ummah, so that they will be saved in the akhirah…. So that this ummah will awaken from their long slumber induced by the acts of the deceitful and bootlicking dai'es…

And if you do not consider that this system and governance have violated the tawheed, whereas you understand the ongoing reality, then you are more in need of sitting down again to learn the meaning and haqiqa of laa ilaaha illallah along with its invalidators rather than going for lectures here and there without understanding the haqiqa of Islam which they themselves call for, because it is not possible for the people who do not understand to make other people understand, and it may actually damage the understanding itself, making the illness of the ummah's understanding getting worse off, like the prevailing reality.

Isn't it strange when someone claims to be Muslim and claims to believe in the Qur’an as the guidance, but their reality is the opposite of that,Because many celebrated religious speakers and kiyais do not make it an issue and they do not oppose it, whereas they are religious experts and Al-Qur’an experts!!!

The inheritors of the Prophet who propagate Al-haq tawheed in the conditions of the country and rulers such as today, are the oppressed people who are always filled with worries and fear from the evil actions of the thaghut rulers, because that tawheed da'wah is contrary to what is adopted by the authorities and their ranks who possess the strength and power, exactly like the fear experienced by the Muslims in the country of Fir’aun and the Muslims in Makkah in the early period of Islam:

“But no one believed Moses, except [some] youths among his people, for fear of Pharaoh and his establishment that they would persecute them.” [Yunus: 83]

“And remember when you were few and oppressed in the land, fearing that people might abduct you….” [Al-Anfal: 26]

Let us together awaken the understandings of this ummah, but if we are incapable then do not do the obscuration of this dien….

May salawat and salam be showered upon the seal of the Prophets, his family, the sahabahs and his followers until the end of times….

All praises are only for Allah Rabbul ‘Alamin (Lord of all the worlds)….

[Conscíous]

For the sources, I have stated the author and the book. I currently do not have a copy, but I'm sure you ll find it in your Proggy library.
It is a lengthy book,.
That source is considered an insight into that belied of the Dai of Satr. Sorry, but that's the best I could do.

Adam, we'll wait till you get a copy and can provide detailed reference for your claim that the Dai is equal to the Imam. We'll wait as long as it takes. We're very patient. In the meantime, you could try to explain these two points:
1) Why do we need the Imam (in satr or otherwise) if the Dai is equal to him?
2) Justify the actions of the Dai (even if he is equal the Imam) which are at odds with the teachings of the Quran.

[/size]

DAMN YOU ADAM..
WE HAD SO MUCH FAITH IN YOU & THE MIGHTY KNOWLEDGE YOU BEHELD ,,,, THAT SOMEONE FOR "ONCE", COULD WIN A DISCUSSION AND BRING HUMSAFAR DOWN TO OUR FEET KISSING LEVEL,,,, AND IF NOT THAT, AT LEAST WIN ONE ARGUMENT OR A POINT FOR GOD (BURHANUDDIN SAHEB TUS) SAKES!!!!




CASE CLOSED !!!

[Adam]

@humsafar

Adam, we'll wait till you get a copy and can provide detailed reference for your claim that the Dai is equal to the Imam. We'll wait as long as it takes. We're very patient. In the meantime, you could try to explain these two points:
1) Why do we need the Imam (in satr or otherwise) if the Dai is equal to him?
2) Justify the actions of the Dai (even if he is equal the Imam) which are at odds with the teachings of the Quran.

1. You need an Imam the same way you need a Nabi/Prophet. For a PHYSICAL LEADER & AUTHORITY RELIGION.
You need a Dai, because the Imam has chosen Satr. For the same above reason. For a PHYSICAL LEADER & AUTHORITY IN RELIGION.

There's no point discussing this if Humsafar doesn't even believe in the Fatimid Imams AS, or The Ahle Bayt, Or the Imams after Rasulullah SAW, as there's nothing common in our belief.
Only is those are common, can this go further, otherwise, you'd have to get to the source of the matter, which is the same old Shia Sunni debate in the importance of Imamat.

@humsafar, who is your leader/authority in religion? Simply (one example of just namaaz besides everything else), who do you pray Namaaz behind, and why him? Or if you lead your own namaaz, why you?

2. Nothing is at odds with the teachings of the Quran.
OR, you maybe interpreting your Quran in the WRONG way. Thus, the question of YOUR AUTHORITY arises again.

The book mentioned above, I have given you the name. In the mean while you can ask your generous leaders to acquire them for you, if they don't already have it.

Humsafar, what sect of Islam do you follow? Please explain in detail. It should make things easier to understand.

[Conscíous]

.
This thread has been dead for 20 days and you all had your chance to speak up!! So I kindly request, that you all stay out of this thread and let Adam & Humsafar finish this...

Thanks

[Humsafar]

Adam, you did not answer my questions, just danced around them. First off, let it be clear that we are here discussing the role and position of the Dai as sanctioned by Bohra doctrine and tradition. Personal beliefs, yours or mine, do not matter. Let us focus on what the text says. Hope this is clear.

Yes "physical authority" is necessary, nobody is disputing that. What we're saying is that that "physical authority" (Dai) cannot be equal in stature and qualification to the "non-physical authority" (Imam). There is a distinct hierarchy of ranks for Bohra divines. But you abdes have erased all the distinction. You consider the Dai to be infallible, do sajda to him and generally worship him in a way that raises his position even above the Imam. So the question is, when no distinction between the authority of Dai and Imam remain then why do you need the Imam? Of course, this a rhetorical question only to draw your attention to the absurdity of your (and Dawat's) doctrinal position.

If you think doing sajda to the dai and plastering his pictures everywhere (not to mention lack of accountability, misuse of religious authority, coercion etc.) are not contrary to the quran then indeed our interpretation is wrong. Please provide us the interpretation which justifies these things.

[Humsafar]

Adam, one more thing. There is no way I can get my hands on the said book. All our old literature is in custody of the Dawat. My leaders - whoever they may be - do not have access to it.

[Adam]

@Humsafar

Adam, you did not answer my questions, just danced around them.

I did answer them, also, directly, in the same point form you had questioned.

But there are some issues, I will discuss. I have divided into 2 parts. The FIRST PART is EXTREMELY NECESSARY, and I request you first answer that. The SECOND PART is an answer to your queries, but is a secondary issue to the first.

FIRST PART

You said :

First off, let it be clear that we are here discussing the role and position of the Dai as sanctioned by Bohra doctrine and tradition. Personal beliefs, yours or mine, do not matter. Let us focus on what the text says. Hope this is clear.

This is where the problems in this question lay, and this is exactly why I started this thread. To "State your belief". I need to understand "who" i'm talking to.
We need to have some common ground on which to lay the foundation of our discussion.
You want to discuss "role and position of the Dai as sanctioned by Bohra doctrine and tradition", but you don't even have any belief in the Fatimid Dawat since you clearly state

"Of course, this a rhetorical question only to draw your attention to the absurdity of your (and Dawat's) doctrinal position."

If I read that correctly, you have no belief in the Fatimid DAWAT in general, so there's no possible way to discuss the "role of the Dai", when the source of the problem is another issue. Following the case of "Deduction" (from root to branches), the Dai is a part the Fatimid Dawat. You don't seem to believe in the Fatimid Dawat (which is the root), so discussing the role of the Dai with you, is really pointless.

For example, (I hope my examples are clear enough for the point i'm trying to make)
- There is no sense in a Christian debating with a Budhist about the justification of the Daila Lama, as there is no common ground. Where do you begin?!
- Another example, narrowing it down, there's no sense in a Shia debating the Imamat of Imam Husain AS with a person of Wahabi belief. As there is NO common ground. (In this example, the common ground would in fact be Rasulullah SAW, and the debate should begin from there, not at Imam Husain AS)

In the same way, there's no point us debating the "Role of the Dai", when you don't share any common belief of the Fatimid Dawat (as stated by you earlier, if this isn't true, please explain your belief, as you know mine)

- If I were to have a religious discussion with an Agha Khani about religion and who's right and wrong, the only way to start that debate would be at the "source" of the problem, just after the "Common ground", in this case, it would be Imam Mustansir AS, and whatever happened after that, etc etc.

I hope that this is clear.

Furthermore, for a start to working towards a "Common ground", you said that you believe that

Yes "physical authority" is necessary, nobody is disputing that.

. (By the way, most most Muslims (Sunnis & Wahabis) would dispute that, but in this context that debate is irrelevant). And that you DO in fact have a physical leader today

My leaders - whoever they may be

Why you wouldn't disclose who your leader is, baffles me to curiosity and confusion, so please disclose this leader of yours, and explain your belief in detail till a common ground, so that this conversation can move on.

-----------
SECOND PART (with no common ground between the two of us), i'll try to answer to the best of my ability, so that there are no complaints of "dancing around" the questions :

But you abdes.........generally worship him in a way that raises his position even above the Imam.

FALSE.
The level of the Imam is higher than the Dai, no Bohra will ever believe or act in such a manner. You have misunderstood (if not deliberately distorted) the Dawoodi Bohra faith.

doing sajda to the dai

Yes, It is in accordance to DB faith (which you share no common ground to), which is in fact a Sajda to Allah TA, in accordance (according to DB interpretation) to the Quran, for example Surah Yusuf, Yaqub AS giving Sajda to Yusuf AS, and the story of Adam AS where the angels perform Sajda to Adam AS. Both instances were Sajda s to human beings allowed in the Quran. (There is another thread with this debate, please discuss there)

plastering his pictures everywhere (not to mention lack of accountability, misuse of religious authority, coercion etc.)

Please provide evidence.

There is no way I can get my hands on the said book.

Asghar Engineer must be having copy of it. I'm sure he'll be kind/approachable enough to lend it to you with open hands. (You can request his contact number from Admin)
Agha Khanis have a collection of manuscripts in their library, you can read it from there if you are granted access.
This book has been quoted from in Syedna Taher Saifuddins RA Risalahs. But I wouldn't expect you to consider that an authentic source, as you have issues with the 51st Dai as well.
So the original book should fulfill your insatiable appetite.

But then again, these books are of Fatimid, Dawoodi Bohra belief, which you don't have anything to do with. Why would you bother? Correct?


------------
I repeat, please answer the FIRST PART first, and the SECOND PART, if you may, after that. (That is secondary)

@BOOM
Thank you for given both of us exclusivity (and keeping the other immature guys off my back). I apologize for not being too continuous as I visit this forum at some very rare free moments I get.

[anajmi]

For example, (I hope my examples are clear enough for the point i'm trying to make)
- There is no sense in a Christian debating with a Budhist about the justification of the Daila Lama, as there is no common ground. Where do you begin?!
- Another example, narrowing it down, there's no sense in a Shia debating the Imamat of Imam Husain AS with a person of Wahabi belief. As there is NO common ground. (In this example, the common ground would in fact be Rasulullah SAW, and the debate should begin from there, not at Imam Husain AS)

Adam has posted some brilliant examples. Let me post another example, There is no sense in Prophet Muhammad (saw) debating about belief in Allah with the pagans of Mecca as there was no common ground. If only the prophet (saw) was as smart as Adam!!

Incase Adam doesn't understand, I am being sarcastic. Both were completely idiotic examples. The common ground for the first one is belief in the hereafter and a God. The common ground for the second example is the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw) (a mistake which Adam realized as soon as he made it).

My advise to Adam is to start talking to Humsafar via PMs otherwise I am going to keep pointing out his foolish examples.

[anajmi]

Both instances were Sajda s to human beings allowed in the Quran.

Both Sajdas were to prophets of Allah. The Dai is not a prophet. Prophet Muhammad (saw) has explicitly prohibited sajda to a human. Bohra interpretation of the Quran to allow sajda to the Dai is a mushrikana interpretation of the Quran. Why only to Dai? Why can't I perform Sajda to my wife? or my children (like Yakub (as) did to Yusuf (as))?

Yes, It is in accordance to DB faith

If you acknowledge that there is no common ground between Islam and the DB faith, I will stop replying to your posts.

[Adam]

I was dreading the immaturity and nonsense of anajmi poking into this.
@Humsafar, I don't mind continuing this in a PM.

I stand by my examples. Common ground must be identified. And please state your belief, and leader, only then we can continue to progress.

[Conscíous]

Br Anajmi,
Why are you spoiling this thread?? We want to hear what Adam has to say and just maybe, you should take your own advise and start to PM Adam, since you are so eager to point out his foolish, and let the rest of us follow this thread, without your interruption..
Thanks

Adam,
Just ignore him.. and thanks for not coping out like other has have done in the past..

[SBM]

Both instances were Sajda s to human beings allowed in the Quran

Out of my league on this discussion but for knowledge
Quran did allow Prophet Mohammed (SAW) to have more than 4 wives, does that means now Dai can have the same.
Sadja to Adam and Yusuf as well as Prophet (SAW) having more than 4 wives were exceptions and not rules if I understood that interpret ion correctly. Please explain, thanks

[Adam]

Thank you very much Boom.

I have PMd him with my answer.

@omabharti - Please take it to the other thread.

[anajmi]

Boom,

I want to hear what Adam has to say too. But he is too much of a coward to say it openly. You can always hear him on PM. Adam isn't dreading what I have to say. Adam is dreading the truth. He doesn't mind talking to people like you who are ignorant. Talking to someone with even a little bit of knowledge scares him.

[anajmi]

I am sorry Adam, but I consider it to be my duty to post your PMs to me on this thread. I want every discussion to be open.

Rasulullah SAW vs The Pagans :
1. I don't think he "debated" with them, he "preached"
2. If he debated, i'm guessing, there would have been some common ground. (P.S, there was the concept/word of "Allah" during the time of Jahiliyyah, so that refutes what you just said.)

Now you scraping the bottom of the barrel. Isn't Allah the common ground between shias and sunnis or bohras and wahhabis or Fatimids and non-fatimids or Dawoodis and other sects of Islam? Why then do you end up running? Fatimid Dawat is not the root. Islam (Allah, his Quran and his prophet (saw)) is the root. Everything else is a by product.

[Adam]

If i'm not mistaken. Anajmi s problem is with the examples i gave, but the common ground factor remains the same.

So the caravan can continue to move alone, despite the barking dogs.

I stand by what I said. Common ground must be identified (whatever they are, until the source of the problem). And please state your belief, and leader, only then we can continue to progress.

Yes, ALLAH is common to all. ONE GOD is common to most religions, if not all. You have to move from the root and then identify where the differences lie.
My initial "common grounds" post was addressed to HUMSAFAR, who's Belief isn't quite clear as yet to me.

P.S : My PM to anajmi, I had actually typed it in the thread OPENLY, but because BOOM had requested to stay on track, I edited it and sent it via PM.

BOOM, I leave his barking in your hands.

[Conscíous]

Br anajmi,
We all understand that you have a different way/line of questioning him, but he doesn't want to engage in a debate with you, so why can't you just except that?? You have a problem chilling bro.. Maybe, you should smoke some marry jane and you might learn how to chill

[anajmi]

Seriously, why can't you folks just ignore my posts? Just let me post my say and be done with it. If you respond to me, then I respond to you and then you guys have to run whining to the Admin. Just let me respond to your posts, but you shouldn't respond to mine. Ignore me and just respond to each other's posts and everything will be fine. Not sure why you guys get so hyper when I post responses.

despite the barking dogs.

I am extremely disappointed with Adam. When he cannot counter, he starts calling people names. Shame on him.

BOOM, I leave his barking in your hands.

I am sure boom will be able to tell you what happened the last time he tried to handle me!!

[Humsafar]

Adam,
I think you’re making too much unnecessary fuss about personal beliefs. In fact, the opposite should be the case if we are genuinely interested in finding the truth. A dispassionate discussion that is not coloured by personal interest or beliefs is likely to be more meaningful than a debate laced with personal attachments of emotion and faith. For example, let’s say we’re discussing Marxism and are judging the performance of a society or leader in accordance with the tenets of that ideology. What would you do? You would take the main features of Marxism and see whether that society or leader who espouses those ideals is actually living up to them or not. In order to do this you do not have to personally believe in Marxism. Do you? It would be absurd if I insisted that you have to believe in Marxism first before you start doing any analysis. Or that if you don't believe in Marxism then you're not qualified.
Similarly, we are discussing Bohras faith as expounded in the various Bohra scriptures of which the Quran is supreme. (What this means is that no Bohra belief or practice would have any validity if it negates the Quran.) So, the Bohras faith is our common ground. We’re judging the role of the role and position of the Dai against this faith. The Bohra beliefs are there for all to see (to the extent the books are made publicly available) and the conduct of the Dai is there for all to see. In order to analyse what the Dai is supposed to be doing and what he is actually doing is a simple matter of matching the tenets of Bohra faith with the conduct of the Dai. I, or for that matter anybody else, does not have to believe in the Bohra doctrine in order to do so.
Hope this answers your first part. If you still insist on statement of personal beliefs then I'll have to assume that your are being stubbornly unreasonable.
On to the second part.

The level of the Imam is higher than the Dai, no Bohra will ever believe or act in such a manner.

Yes, technically true but in practice and everyday experience the Dai is worshipped as a demigod.

Yes, It is in accordance to DB faith (which you share no common ground to), which is in fact a Sajda to Allah TA, in accordance (according to DB interpretation) to the Quran, ....

Can you tell us how you arrived at that interpretation? Or is this whole insistence of declaring personal beliefs a ruse so that once someone accepts the Bohra faith you have the licence to ram down their throat any "interpretation" the naughty Dawat cooks up?

...for example Surah Yusuf, Yaqub AS giving Sajda to Yusuf AS, and the story of Adam AS where the angels perform Sajda to Adam AS. Both instances were Sajda s to human beings allowed in the Quran. (There is another thread with this debate, please discuss there)

So, this is your justification for sajada to Dai? Look at the context of these two sajadas, they were allowed under special circumstances and were a one-time affair. That context and circumstance is not comparable to the sajada to the Dai by any stretch of the imagination or interpretation. The sajda to the Dai these days is a routine and mundane affair, so much so that to a neutral outsider it may appear as if the Dai's stature is greater than Yusuf AS and Adam AS.
Evidently, the truth is this: the Dai and the Dawat, either inadvertently or as a strategy, have allowed this sajda business to continue for it helps the Bohras cowed down. Since your masters won't stop this un-Islamic practice, it's spin-doctors like you who are pressed into service to produce an alchemy of interpretations and obscure references to justify it. It is a pity to see intelligent abdes like you twisting in the wind like this.

Please provide evidence.

Visit any abde home and shop and you will see pictures of Dais plastered all over the place. As for accountability, what happens to all the money collected from Bohras? As for human rights, lack of jamat autonomy, see the reports of Nathwani and Tewatia Commissions.

So the original book should fulfill your insatiable appetite.

No, I've no appetite for these books. Since you quoted them to prove your un-Islamic position the onus is on you to provide the evidence. Until you do so your position remains tentative and untenable.

[Adam]

think you’re making too much unnecessary fuss about personal beliefs. In fact, the opposite should be the case if we are genuinely interested in finding the truth.

I don't think I am.
Firstly, because ALL the issues brought up by you'll are relating to beliefs (Sajda, Salaam, Wajebaat, Pictures), all are carried out in accordance to DB belief. So, in order to discuss these issues, it must be tackled through the way of belief.
Secondly, look at it from my side. ALL I have been asking, right from the beginning was WHAT YOUR BELIEF IS, WHO YOUR PHYSICAL AUTHORITY & LEADER IS.
I just need to know that, for my sake, so I can continue to converse and custom my answer for you. Each person will have a different "Style" of answering to. I don't see WHY you are being so stubborn about disclosing that fact. Let me make it clear, I cannot progress to answer in a better way, unless I know whom I'm talking to and what his background is.

A dispassionate discussion that is not coloured by personal interest or beliefs is likely to be more meaningful than a debate laced with personal attachments of emotion and faith. For example, let’s say we’re discussing Marxism

Yes, a dispassionate discussion is needed.
Your example of Marxism I feel, is not valid in this context. It was a socio-political ideology, and didn't have anything to do with religion. It was taken up by a variety of people, irrespective of their religion, again, it was a socio-political ideology. If you were discussing it from a social point, your approach would be correct.
BUT since we are talking about a Belief & a Religion (Dawoodi Bohra Belief, that come under the Islamic Religion), and you are questioning the "role of the Dai", the discussion MUST be based on religion & belief - in this case, Islam. And since you want to talk about the Dai, the discussion MUST be based on the Fatimid faith & Dawat (or whatever before it), as the Dai is connected to it.

Or that if you don't believe in Marxism then you're not qualified.

I'm not asking you whether you believe in the Dai & Dawat. I already know the answer to that. You do not.
ALL I am asking you is, WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE IN? The same way, I would ask a person discussing Marxism what ideology he follows/trusts (for he must be following something he feels is better), in order, if you may, compare the two. What is your belief Mr Humsafar?

A player for an English football team wouldn't really worry about the captainship of the Indian Cricket team. It's not his problem and nothing related to him. Unless, he is a player or a captain in another cricket team, then, he would be curious.
What team do you belong to, who's your captain?

(I apologize if you feel my examples are childish, I only give them to simplify the point i'm trying to make)

Similarly, we are discussing Bohras faith as expounded in the various Bohra scriptures of which the Quran is supreme.

Yes.

(What this means is that no Bohra belief or practice would have any validity if it negates the Quran.)

True

So, the Bohras faith is our common ground.

False. Because the Bohra faith is preceded by and connected the Fatimi Dawat faith, where there isn't any common ground, thus, there isn't any common ground between the Bohra faith either.
An argument is like a chain. If it has been broken, you can't hold the first link (in this case Quran & Islam) and directly expect to know the source of the problem by looking at the last link (Dai). Although they ARE connected. You will have to trace back to where the weakness / differences lay. Where the true common ground lay.

Hope this answers your first part.

No it hasn't. Honestly, it hasn't gone one step further.

If you still insist on statement of personal beliefs then I'll have to assume that your are being stubbornly unreasonable.

Call me stubborn if you may. But so ARE YOU. I HAVE been answering ALL your questions directly (whether you accept the answers or not is a separate issue, but the fact remains, that I DID answer them), on the other hand, you have been equally, if not more stubborn, NOT to answer my SIMPLE questions :
Your Belief, Authority & Leader.

Only once those are answered, I can be more specific and direct.


The SECOND PART, I will keep on hold, as not to divert from the first. As stated before by me, it is secondary, because it is an offshoot of the first.
Once the first is clear, we can move onto the Second.

[Humsafar]

Adam, you're getting tiresome. For the last time, my beliefs are not relevant to this discussion. You just answer the questions in the light of your beliefs. It is as simple as that. Why do you need to customise your answers in accordance to my beliefs. Whatever my beliefs, your answers should be the same. If not, then it only means that you're going to manipulate your answers, and are not going to be truthful.

True, the issues I've raised relate

...to beliefs (Sajda, Salaam, Wajebaat, Pictures), all are carried out in accordance to DB belief. So, in order to discuss these issues, it must be tackled through the way of belief.

Sure, then please answer them by way of your belief. My belief, or lack thereof, should not in any way stop you. You can do it, just try. Here's a suggestion. Take one question at time and explain it in the perspective of the Quran and the Prophet's sunnah. Then explain it in the Dawooid Bohra (current Dawat)'s perspective. Once we have these two perspectives on all the issues we compare them and see how the Dawoodi Bohra faith (of the current Dawat) measures up with the fundamental and inviolate teachings of the Quran.
This is a normal way to conduct a discussion. But just to humour you and further this conversation along, here's a deal. Since you said you'll customise your answers in accordance to my beliefs, I, and am sure others too, would like to know what they might be. So here are two scenarios:
1) My belief, authority and leader are the same as yours - the current Dawoodi Bohra faith.
2) My belief is in Islam, my authority is the Quran and my leader is the Prophet.