The True Imam - How would you verify?

[JC]

This is catch 22 and abdes/amtes do not understand or realize this ............. or may be they do not want to .........

Dai will verify Imam but Imam appoints the Dai ........... how do we know WHOM Imam has appointed?? HOW?? There is no answer for that. And if at all Imam has appointed a Dai and we accept that, the same Dai will point to the person WHO appointed him as Dai ............. how convenient.... You scratch my back and I will scratch yours .....

I predict soon Muffat-Dal will start his campaign for the ARRIVAL of IMAM .......... and it is always possible after few years of extreme slavery he himself or any of his sons will be declared Imam ............. and to prove that they have many theories, Zahir/Batin, Concept of Imamat, Abu Talib was Imam too, blah, blah, blah .............

And Long Live The Imam ............

[disillusioned]

This is catch 22 and abdes/amtes do not understand or realize this ............. or may be they do not want to .........

Dai will verify Imam but Imam appoints the Dai ........... how do we know WHOM Imam has appointed?? HOW?? There is no answer for that. And if at all Imam has appointed a Dai and we accept that, the same Dai will point to the person WHO appointed him as Dai ............. how convenient.... You scratch my back and I will scratch yours .....

I predict soon Muffat-Dal will start his campaign for the ARRIVAL of IMAM .......... and it is always possible after few years of extreme slavery he himself or any of his sons will be declared Imam ............. and to prove that they have many theories, Zahir/Batin, Concept of Imamat, Abu Talib was Imam too, blah, blah, blah .............

And Long Live The Imam ............

I might be opening a hornet's nest by saying this, but this is symptomatic of pretty much everything in our religion. Allah revealed the Quran. Proof? Quran says so.. etc.

[JC]

Agreed Bro disillusioned,

This is like opening a Pandora's box ........... but we not only have to see WHO is saying but consider WHAT is being said and test it and try it ......... SEE the life of Prophet, imagine WHAT Quran offers, consider how it tries to improve our lives, how it teaches to create societies and live peacefully .......... JUDGE if you want to; but judge in the light of what it offers and it can accomplish ............ the benefits of something in itself gives the proof of its authenticity.

[haqniwaat]

This is catch 22 and abdes/amtes do not understand or realize this ............. or may be they do not want to .........
Dai will verify Imam but Imam appoints the Dai ........... how do we know WHOM Imam has appointed?? HOW?? There is no answer for that. And if at all Imam has appointed a Dai and we accept that, the same Dai will point to the person WHO appointed him as Dai .............

When you start questioning the very basis of Fatimid belief, then either you have lost your faith or you are not very knowledgeable about your own religion - if it still is.
The main point you are missing is "ruhaani" i.e. "wah'ye" for Rasulullah SAW, "ta'eed" for Imam/Dai. It is the Fatimid doctrine that the Dai chooses his successor by the Imam's ta'eed. And everything the Dai does is with the Imam's ta'eed. Now, if you don't believe in the Imam or the Imamate, then you're better off being with the Wahabis; they don't believe this, either.
So, it is with this ta'eed that the Dai chooses his successor and also proclaims the arrival of the Imam. This has actually occured before in history - when an Imam returned from seclusion. Go to madrasah to learn more about this.
What many of you on this board are forgetting is that faith requires more than just proof; it requires something from within; soul searching.
With that said, that is why it is so important to follow the guidelines setup a thousand years ago when the 21st Imam went into seclusion. These are the belief in Dai, Mazoon, and Mukasir - who are proof of the existence of the Imam in seclusion. The Dai encompasses the mazoon and mukasir, and also appoints/creates them by ta'eed.
So what has happened over the last 30 years is that the mazoon and mukasir roles have been downgraded by the zaadas and kothar. Hence, the turmoil in dawat. Another point: just as mazoon is much lower than dai, the mukasir is even multiplicitly lower than mazoon.
So here we have no nass in public - nobody has heard it (except mufaddali's). So tradition and pure logic dictates that we must ask the mazoon who is dai. And the mazoon says "he" is dai. So the case is closed.
If you still don't understand what I'm saying, God help you.

[truth seeker100]

god help you find true islam. all this dai stuff is bidah and has no basis in islam.

[Moiz_Dhaanu]

This is catch 22 and abdes/amtes do not understand or realize this ............. or may be they do not want to .........
Dai will verify Imam but Imam appoints the Dai ........... how do we know WHOM Imam has appointed?? HOW?? There is no answer for that. And if at all Imam has appointed a Dai and we accept that, the same Dai will point to the person WHO appointed him as Dai .............

When you start questioning the very basis of Fatimid belief, then either you have lost your faith or you are not very knowledgeable about your own religion - if it still is.
The main point you are missing is "ruhaani" i.e. "wah'ye" for Rasulullah SAW, "ta'eed" for Imam/Dai. It is the Fatimid doctrine that the Dai chooses his successor by the Imam's ta'eed. And everything the Dai does is with the Imam's ta'eed. Now, if you don't believe in the Imam or the Imamate, then you're better off being with the Wahabis; they don't believe this, either.
So, it is with this ta'eed that the Dai chooses his successor and also proclaims the arrival of the Imam. This has actually occured before in history - when an Imam returned from seclusion. Go to madrasah to learn more about this.
What many of you on this board are forgetting is that faith requires more than just proof; it requires something from within; soul searching.
With that said, that is why it is so important to follow the guidelines setup a thousand years ago when the 21st Imam went into seclusion. These are the belief in Dai, Mazoon, and Mukasir - who are proof of the existence of the Imam in seclusion. The Dai encompasses the mazoon and mukasir, and also appoints/creates them by ta'eed.
So what has happened over the last 30 years is that the mazoon and mukasir roles have been downgraded by the zaadas and kothar. Hence, the turmoil in dawat. Another point: just as mazoon is much lower than dai, the mukasir is even multiplicitly lower than mazoon.
So here we have no nass in public - nobody has heard it (except mufaddali's). So tradition and pure logic dictates that we must ask the mazoon who is dai. And the mazoon says "he" is dai. So the case is closed.
If you still don't understand what I'm saying, God help you.

@haqniwaat...hats off to your perfect reply

[humanbeing]

When you start questioning the very basis of Fatimid belief, then either you have lost your faith or you are not very knowledgeable about your own religion - if it still is.

I am not questioning the concept of Imam from the progeny of Prophet MUhammed to be the guiding leader in every zaman. This is an absolute and a wonderful possibility to form a faith or belief on. It is not impossible or there is nothing to ridicule to believe in the FACT that a lineage of Prophet to be the guiding leader of the believers.

Questions to the belief of remaining hidden ! the concept of seclusion is political and not religious or spiritual if you understand me correctly.

So, it is with this ta'eed that the Dai chooses his successor and also proclaims the arrival of the Imam. This has actually occured before in history - when an Imam returned from seclusion. Go to madrasah to learn more about this.

As you have mentioned that Imam did return from his seclusion. What is stopping Imam now from returning. Please do not quote threat to life, limb and property to Imam upon revelation, there are enough shiaas, bohras and abdes in the world to protect the Imam’s life, limb and property. Morever as per many beliefs, Imam is all power to destroy his enemy, ghaib-na-jaankar, infallible, sea of knowledge etc etc etc.

What many of you on this board are forgetting is that faith requires more than just proof; it requires something from within; soul searching.

It is the soul searching that distinguishes the fact that our faith is taken on a ride with the twisted mystical excuse of Imam being hidden. The word “hidden” is root of the problem not the Imam. Financial & Spiritual accountability is ridiculed by the keepers of the faith in “hidden-Imam” and on this twisted disguise exploitation and oppression is blatant in front of our eyes ! my souls searching encourages me to question the belief in “hidden” and want the Imam who claims/demands ownership of my faith to show up !

Please note, it is a question to the belief, not dismissal !

With that said, that is why it is so important to follow the guidelines setup a thousand years ago when the 21st Imam went into seclusion. These are the belief in Dai, Mazoon, and Mukasir - who are proof of the existence of the Imam in seclusion. The Dai encompasses the mazoon and mukasir, and also appoints/creates them by ta'eed.

So what does our hidden-Imam preach ( give ta`eed) to these Dais, maazon and mukasir !

Go on a sadistic pleasure hunting trips.

Sit like kings (pheron) on a elevated thrones and let pious innocent believers stand in queues for days long to kiss feet for 10.5 seconds.

Exchange buckets of cash with fake mullah and sheikh titles to unworthy corrupt men.

Hold burials/nikah for money, commercialize salvation and spirituality with safaai and rukku chithi.

Deny any financial accountability of funds extracted from public.

What are the guidelines set up by Imam thousands of years ago, that we are missing ? consider prophet muhammed to be our visible guiding Imam thousands of years ago. He preached accountability, equality and compassion towards everyone. By the way.. it is these Dais, mazoon and mukasir preaching this virtues, but not following them.

If you still don't understand what I'm saying, God help you.

Yes ! I don’t understand ! and thank god … god is helping me !

[JC]

Haq Ni Waat = Islam is a very simple religion and God has made it simple for us. We have five tenants of Islam to follow; we have Quran and Hadith to guide us thru. The logical end requirement of every religion is that you do not bring harm to people and property and do not have bad intentions. Add to this are the laws of land to be followed.

On the other hand, thaykaydars of religions and sub-sect within various religions have confused and complicated religion so that their business keeps flourishing. Whenever someone says 'Mazhab Ma Ghanee Bareekee Chay' that means you are a fool and you have to 'follow blindly' what that other person says; it is just like 'you do not understand a sh**'.

Now Kotharis have come up with parallel system to Imamat to Nabuwat, they say Abu Talib was Imam, they have confused Nabuwat with attaching Waseyat to it (to justify Ali, Hussain and hence concept of Imamat), they have come up with Present and Hidden Imams, they have come up with Mustauda Nabi and Mustakir Nabi, they have come up with Zahir/Batin, they have come up with Dai/Mazoon/Mukasir .............. and alike. Today we have so many Dais floating around ..... Even before 46th Dai was a simple Dai, after 46th, the rest became Maustauda or Nazim Dai and then comes great 51st who declares himself 'MUTLAQ' ........... absolute...!!! Even Nabi did not say he was Nabi-e-Mutlaq, so how on earth a petty person CLAIMS that ...............

So forget Imam and Dai and Fatimid belief and all that ............... follow Islam by following your heart; do research, study; do good deeds and you are guaranteed to go to Janat if there is one.

[JC]

Bro Human being,

The basic flaw in following Imam is that WHO is 'real' Imam, how do we know which is true Imam. Aga Khan, hidden Imam of Dawoodis or Alavis or Sulemanis or Qutbis?? What if any other Imam shows up, say Khomeini. What about Ali Khamenei or Iran?? When your belief is in a 'lineage' then there are bound to be divisions and hence this defeats the whole purpose that there should be (or it is better to have) a person to guide. If various groups of people have different Imams then how it is different from any other leader of any other community or group or nation?

[haqniwaat]

What is stopping Imam now from returning. Please do not quote threat to life, limb and property to Imam upon revelation, there are enough shiaas, bohras and abdes in the world to protect the Imam’s life, limb and property.

Once again, we're asking the same questions on this board which the questioner would have known if he had enough knowledge about Fatimid belief.
To answer the above question, the Imam is not hidden because of physical worldly reasons. Once again, he is hidden for ruhaani reasons. If you had gone to listen to Burhanuddin Mola's waaz, you would have known that there are mustaqar and mustawda Imams. Ibrahim and Rasulullah were mustaqar, along with Ismail and his lineage to Rasulullah. But Ishaaq and his lineage via Musa and Isa and lastly Buhaira were mustawda - just like Dai al Satr is mustawda. Imams from Ali to Qaim al Qiyamat are mustaqar. This is the basis of Fatimid belief, which all Bohras believe in: Alia, Dawoodi, etc. and even certain Shia.
My point again is: if you don't believe in this basic belief, then you are simply cluttering up this board. Nobody is stopping you from joining the Sunni's.

[anajmi]

Actually Fatimid belief is a piece of fiction. It has no basis in the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Fatimid beliefs came into existence after the prophet (saw), Ali, Hassan and Hussain. None of these people had any input into Fatimid beliefs. For example, the classification of mustaqar and mustawda. You won't find these or descriptions of these in any teachings of the prophet, Ali, Hassan or Hussain. These were invented much later for political reasons. It has nothing to do with Islam.

[SBM]

Br Haqniwaat
Can you provide any references to your explanations beside what Dai tells you. If you do accept what Dai tells you then SMS as a Dai has also asked you to say Laanaat on a pious Mumin too ( Yes SMS may not have said directly but he never refuted it either)

[truth seeker100]

bro sbm I am pretty sure haqnidawat is a kq follower.

[haqniwaat]

you guys are a riot! It's obvious the only reason you're on this board is because you're looking for that silver lining. But trying to discredit Fatimid beliefs will not help you. You must open up your minds and let love guide you, not hatred. I am sorry that mufaddal bs is here with us in this era. But he too shall pass like Sulayman and Yazeed and Moaawiyah before him.

[anajmi]

I love you.

Fatimid belief is still a piece of fiction. This has nothing to do with love or hatred. It is simple logic. Why do you have to classify these beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs? Why can you not simply call them "Islamic" beliefs? Have a logical/simple answer for that? No. But since I have love in my heart, and of course, a little bit of logic in my brain, I have a simple answer. It is because these are not Islamic beliefs!!

[truth seeker100]

you guys are a riot! It's obvious the only reason you're on this board is because you're looking for that silver lining. But trying to discredit Fatimid beliefs will not help you. You must open up your minds and let love guide you, not hatred. I am sorry that mufaddal bs is here with us in this era. But he too shall pass like Sulayman and Yazeed and Moaawiyah before him.

actually we are here to state our opinions about your fake Fatimid beliefs

[seeker110]

If the true Imam comes, (if there is such a thing, I certainly doubt it ). I hope he is wearing work type clothes. We already know the religious haram khores wear white.

[alam]

So much circular reasoning and arguments Admin kindly move topic to Islam Here and Now Brothers and sisters truthseeker, anajmi, JC, you add nothing but same old same old, rejecting concept of Imam as part of your faith. please refrain from derailing topic that is part and parcel of faith for majority Bohras (despite current circumstances and confusion)
Unless you are bent on evangelism and self-righteousness. Admin kindly move derailing and irrelevant posts to appropriate thread.

Haqniwaat Humanbeing, Moiz, Zinger, etc... those still interested: my 2 cents worth:
Today 1300 years later, there are literally thousands or realistically hundreds and hundreds of thousands of individuals who will be able to Rightfully claim lineage to Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib and bibiFatema. If according to fatimiid belief, the father-son succession of Imam were to trickle down to 2014 relevance, it is likely that due to splits and schism during first 21 imams, there might likely be in theory, at least several who might claim to be "Legitimate Imams", depending on how they trace their lineage/succession.
Now add to this the splits in Doat history, which appear to be at least half a dozen to date if not more, depending on how carefully you do the analysis. So if you get my drift, there ought to be at least more than a dozen, if not more, who may lay claim to being Imam, and therefore, at least theoretically, could make themselves known to whoever in that particular Imam claimant's view happens to be rightful Dai.

If there were so many splits among Shias and the Imams, and then among Bohras with the Dais, it is at least conceivable that different Imam claimants could make themselves (theoretically ) visible to the respective Dai.

If you think it is hard to verify the true and rightful Dai, then think how hard is it going to be to try and verify the rightful Imam?
I personaly think the discourse of this discussion gets very murky when faith itself is challenged by some (anajmi, truthseeker, etc), along with demands for "proof", "verification" is coined as if to add more/less legitimacy to the discussion. Faith and belief in Quran as the word of Allah is no different from faith and belief in presence/absence of faith in succession of Imamate. or for that matter, fiath and belief in the Bible, and the Apostles etc. When you reject that which you have no faith in, and then when you attempt to justify the rejection on basis of credible evidence is one thing, but not realizing that your very reliance on "credible evidence" as a basis for inferring a truth criterion is itself an act of faith, is a problem of lack of awareness, not a weakness in argument.
for the sake of argument, on this discussion it is simply efficient to operate from the assumption of faith rather than alternative viewpoints.

I got rather circular here, but I hope I made my point.

[zinger]

So much circular reasoning and arguments Admin kindly move topic to Islam Here and Now Brothers and sisters truthseeker, anajmi, JC, you add nothing but same old same old, rejecting concept of Imam as part of your faith. please refrain from derailing topic that is part and parcel of faith for majority Bohras (despite current circumstances and confusion)
Unless you are bent on evangelism and self-righteousness. Admin kindly move derailing and irrelevant posts to appropriate thread.

Haqniwaat Humanbeing, Moiz, Zinger, etc... those still interested: my 2 cents worth:
Today 1300 years later, there are literally thousands or realistically hundreds and hundreds of thousands of individuals who will be able to Rightfully claim lineage to Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib and bibiFatema. If according to fatimiid belief, the father-son succession of Imam were to trickle down to 2014 relevance, it is likely that due to splits and schism during first 21 imams, there might likely be in theory, at least several who might claim to be "Legitimate Imams", depending on how they trace their lineage/succession.
Now add to this the splits in Doat history, which appear to be at least half a dozen to date if not more, depending on how carefully you do the analysis. So if you get my drift, there ought to be at least more than a dozen, if not more, who may lay claim to being Imam, and therefore, at least theoretically, could make themselves known to whoever in that particular Imam claimant's view happens to be rightful Dai.

If there were so many splits among Shias and the Imams, and then among Bohras with the Dais, it is at least conceivable that different Imam claimants could make themselves (theoretically ) visible to the respective Dai.

If you think it is hard to verify the true and rightful Dai, then think how hard is it going to be to try and verify the rightful Imam?
I personaly think the discourse of this discussion gets very murky when faith itself is challenged by some (anajmi, truthseeker, etc), along with demands for "proof", "verification" is coined as if to add more/less legitimacy to the discussion. Faith and belief in Quran as the word of Allah is no different from faith and belief in presence/absence of faith in succession of Imamate. or for that matter, fiath and belief in the Bible, and the Apostles etc. When you reject that which you have no faith in, and then when you attempt to justify the rejection on basis of credible evidence is one thing, but not realizing that your very reliance on "credible evidence" as a basis for inferring a truth criterion is itself an act of faith, is a problem of lack of awareness, not a weakness in argument.
for the sake of argument, on this discussion it is simply efficient to operate from the assumption of faith rather than alternative viewpoints.

I got rather circular here, but I hope I made my point.

you made your point perfectly Alam.

There are non-Bohras here (Anajmi, Truth seeker etc) who reject the concept of Imamate. Fine. Let them. No issues there

Then there are Bohras who also reject Imamate. Fine with them too, let them. No issues there either

Then, there are also the reform minded Bohras who dont care much about it, one way or the other. Well, nothing can be done about that either

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

The only reason im writing this is because you took my name, although personally, i decided to step out of this circular conversation long ago

[humanbeing]

@ Alam : wonderfully summarized in your post, the sad reality of a theory thrusted down since centuries. The theories dished out by kothar and other beleiver in hidden imam are not circular ; they are self serving theories.

Those who are defending the belief in “hiddenness” of Imam are escaping the truth to latch on to a comfortable theory to their salvation. Haqniwat mentioned a twisted mystical (ruhaani) theory of why Imams are hidden from centuries. The issue is Kothari mullahs are not consistent with their own teachings and preaching. I have heard separate theories on why Imams are hidden / ghaib / purdah / seclusion / protected. Different Mullahs give different theories.

One says : Imam tayyeb went into seclusion to escape abbasid assassination, as Imam Amir was assassinated already. Also citing previous examples of three Mastur Imam who were in seclusion due to political turmoil. Also there is an instance of Imam declaration in Afriqiya ( Tunisia) on Dai Abdullah Shi ! Then there are bayans, appeals of Imam doing Zuhur ! If the reasons of hiddenness of Imam is a roohani requirement, then why are all looking forward to Imam’s Zuhur ?

The concept of Misaaq & Taqiyet evolved during the political turmoil wherein Fatimid empire was under threat from abbasid assasinations. The content, nature and conditions of Misaaq speaks for itself, it is more of a militarized oath. Also to keep it secret sounds like a strategy to survive or prepare against threats. These concepts are acceptable and made sense in those situations.

Upon negating the relevance of contents of Misaaq and need for taqiyet in the age where people can follow their faith without fear of such threat. Another muallah puts foreword the twisted, mystical roohani theory of “hiddeness" citing some mustaqar and mustawda theories thrusted on believers,

I don’t how long back we can trace these evolving manipulations in “Fatimid beliefs” .. seems like everyone just picks these doctrines and twist them with their own fancies and shout from the rooftops that these are not changed in 1000s years. Whereas they changed it right in front of our eyes. How obviously deceptive these mullahs can get and yet remain immune to any accountability !


They pick and choose instances from history mix them up and present a new doctrine or theory to suit their greedy agendas. It is a common sense to a kid to deduce that concept of “hiddenness” is to facilitate authority, power and greed.

If none of their trashy explanations work, they will throw the towel on the face stating we are mentally not ready for such high level ILM. Agree to their theories with closed mind and VOILA ! you are rewarded to be an ILMI ! and graduate to next level !


Would like to seek answer from followers of Dais who are getting taa’ed from Imam-uz-Zaman-ul-Ghaib about their Dai’s practices. Be it SMS or SKQ.

[progticide]

If you think it is hard to verify the true and rightful Dai, then think how hard is it going to be to try and verify the rightful Imam?

Hard to verify the true Dai?...Hard for you and others, not for Dawoodi Bohras. For Dawoodi Bohras, our beloved spiritual father the 52nd Dai-ul-Mutlaq Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (R.A.), before he left to meet His Lord, removed all hardships and placed us in the gentle care and guidance of His Mansoos 53rd Dai-ul-Mutlaq Syedna Aaliqadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (T.U.S.)

There is only one true and rightful Dai-ul-Mutlaq for the Dawoodi Bohras, the 53rd Dai-ul-Mutlaq His Holiness Syedna wa Maulana Aaliqadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (T.U.S.), the rightful successor to the 52nd Dai-ul-Mutlaq Al Hayyal Muqaddas Syedna wa Maulana Mohammed Burhanuddin (R.A.).

Under the spiritual leadership of Syedna Aaliqadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (T.U.S.), the dawoodi bohras are completely relaxed and at peace on the question of verifying the rightful and true Imam, just as we were relaxed and at peace during the era of Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin (R.A.), for the rightful Dai of the true Imam is there amongst us to guide us and lead us on the path of Sirat ul Mustaqeem.

For Dawoodi Bohras, when the time comes, the Dai-ul-Mutlaq (the incumbent to this office is 53rd Dai-ul-Mutlaq Syedna Aaliqadr Mufaddal Saifuddin (T.U.S.)) will verify the true Imam.

For all others - the question still remains open. "The True Imam - How would you verify?"

[zinger]

del

[qutub_mamajiwala]

human being
very gud articulated post.
some of these things i have listened and viewed on the youtube
by ismail poonawala and others while discussing ikhwanussafa
how it was written and came into being.
the thurst of it was when there is a movement to create a state--here fatimid empire--
these were guidelines as to how one should behave in public and give oath to imam and how to achieve
state hood for it,
once it got established, there was no need or rather it was practised exactly opposite.

[truth seeker100]

haha progiticide no one is relaxed under muffu's reign. it is only money money money. you probably think muffy is going to guide you to heaven, but I'm not so sure he is even going to heaven. after all he is a fake muslim who only cares about money.
and mr zinger can you tell us why you have faith in Fatimid beliefs? why do you just blindly follow it when it is unislamic?
and progiticide first of all muffy is not a dai so you might as well stop arguing and wasting our time

[truth seeker100]

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

[anajmi]

Guys,

I am simply trying to tell you that you can believe in anything you like. Just do not call it "Islamic" belief. If you call it Islamic, then I will ask for proof from Quran and Sunnah which you do not have. For eg. if someone asks you to prove that fasting is a part of Islamic belief, you will be able to show the ayah from Surah Al-Baqara commanding the believers to fast. This is the proof that we are referring to. It is a matter of faith, but based upon the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Some of us are too dumb to understand this.

But I am glad that you have chosen to refer to these non-Islamic beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs. Now, I do not need any proof as it is a matter of your faith which is different than my faith. There are some smart people on this forum like zinger, alam, progticide, haqniwaat etc who understand the difference and choose to refer to them as "Fatimid" beliefs but there are some not so smart people like anajmi, humanbeing, truth seeker100 and others who always confuse the two and have to be reminded again and again that one is not the same as the other. Hope that straightens out the "circular" problem that we have been facing.

[alam]

Continuation from my earlier post:

It seems to me now that there are at least 6 or more schisms in last 1000 years of Dawat history.
Sulaimanis, ?
Alavis 26th dai?
Vakilis,
Badris
Burhanis 52nds
Qutbis 53rd
Mufaddalis 53rd
48ers

If there are so many "Dais" and their Dawat and people who identify themselves to be dawoodi Bohras, then the dawoodi Bohras would verify their Imam based on which Dai they follow. My earlier post attempts to bring to light the issue of the impossibility of verification from the standpoint of "Absoluteness", since in theory at least, and it's not that far fetched, far more than one Imam can come forward and claim they are the true imam, and the respective Dai would accept or reject.

[zinger]

haha progiticide no one is relaxed under muffu's reign. it is only money money money. you probably think muffy is going to guide you to heaven, but I'm not so sure he is even going to heaven. after all he is a fake muslim who only cares about money.
and mr zinger can you tell us why you have faith in Fatimid beliefs? why do you just blindly follow it when it is unislamic?
and progiticide first of all muffy is not a dai so you might as well stop arguing and wasting our time

i have nothing to prove to a close-minded bigot like you

[zinger]

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

hajr e aswad is just a stone too is it not???????

[Fateh]

The true Dai--How would you verify?