21 imam has appointed other imam? confused

[anajmi]

The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.

Seriously? Can you explain how they are superior? Or even like the nabis mentioned in the Quran? I am sincerely hoping that you will ask me to go the nearest library and spend weeks and months in research. That way, I will have the short answer to this question.

with the potential end of the era of Muhammad (SAW) and inauguration of a new era.

And this one too. Is there going to be a new Quran in the new era? Also, will that be the end of "panjatan"? Again, the short answer would suffice.

[Biradar]

Incidentally, I should clarify one thing. When I use the word "nabi" this does not include the six nutaqa' who brought revelations (Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Mohammad). One must understand that revelations have a finite term designated for them, during which they are valid. This leads naturally to a cyclical view of religious history, in which a natiq (speaking prophet) brings a new revelation and sharia, abrogating the sharia of the previous natiq. Mohammad (SAW) is the last (sixth) natiq, and also the greatest of them all (one can imagine the various prophets as stages of maturity).

As to the question if there will be a new Quran. Short answer: no, by definition.

As to the question if that will be the end of the panjataan. Short answer: no.

The panjataan in the form of the five people, Mohammad, Ali, Fatema, Hassan and Hussain are historical people in the era of Mohammad (SAW), as is well known. However, their essence is eternal and exists in all eras and all times, past and future.

Yes, one must make a trip to the library to understand this oneself. Obviously. How else can one learn? Was the Quran revealed to you personally? Did you read any books? Where did you get them? "Library" is a symbolic word for written and oral texts, which you must seek out, unless you are receiving wahyaa from Allah directly.

However, as is well known, our resident Shaikh-al Islam is not here to learn but to create fasaad and fitna. He is welcome here, of course, even though this is a Bohra forum. However, the naive need to exercise caution, like one does when one knows that a mischievous serpent is in our garden.

[Biradar]

Incidentally, an interesting (though partly garbled) document can be downloaded from this website:

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/pdfs/wazkur-f ... Ismail.pdf

This may provide a starting point for further study.

[KA786110]

Incidentally, an interesting (though partly garbled) document can be downloaded from this website:

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/pdfs/wazkur-f ... Ismail.pdf

This may provide a starting point for further study.

Thanks for the link. Good to read something in Hindi.

[KA786110]

However, as is well known, our resident Shaikh-al Islam is not here to learn but to create fasaad and fitna. He is welcome here, of course, even though this is a Bohra forum. However, the naive need to exercise caution, like one does when one knows that a mischievous serpent is in our garden.

Ouch.

[anajmi]

Incidentally, I should clarify one thing. When I use the word "nabi" this does not include the six nutaqa' who brought revelations (Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Isa and Mohammad). One must understand that revelations have a finite term designated for them, during which they are valid. This leads naturally to a cyclical view of religious history, in which a natiq (speaking prophet) brings a new revelation and sharia, abrogating the sharia of the previous natiq. Mohammad (SAW) is the last (sixth) natiq, and also the greatest of them all (one can imagine the various prophets as stages of maturity).

Incidentally, biradar did not answer the question that was asked. The question was - Can you explain how they are superior? Or even like the nabis mentioned in the Quran?

Those who bring revelation are called Rasul. Dawood (as) was also a Rasul.

Is the Dai superior to the Nabis mentioned in the Quran like Yusuf (as) who was thrown into the well by his brother and then saved Egypt from famine? What about Yunus (as), who was swallowed by the whale? Are the Dais superior to Yaqub (as) who lost his eyes crying for Yusuf (as). What about Ismail (as) who agreed to be sacrificed by his father for the sake of Allah? What about Suleman (as) who had power over the animals and the jinn?

As to the question if there will be a new Quran. Short answer: no, by definition.

As to the question if that will be the end of the panjataan. Short answer: no.

So in short, the brother doesn't know what will constitute "the potential end of the era of Muhammad (SAW) and inauguration of a new era". The era of Mohammad continues till there is a new Quran and new Sunnah. Which isn't going to happen. I think it is time you hit the library. You need to learn the meanings of a few words, like "superior" and "era".

[anajmi]

Going through the link that was posted. In that link, where ever (on the 5th page right now) the author mentions Kalimaye Tawheed, he mentions Kalimaye Imamat with brackets. Any reason for that other than the obvious one? By the way, I would suggest the readers to read the ayahs of the Quran that are referenced as Kalimaye Tawheed, and then misleadingly as Kalimaye Imamat, directly. Go to any translation and check them out. Surah 43:26, 27 and 28.

The author interprets a portion of the kalimah as - "E meri Qaum, tum Allah ki ibadat karo, iske siwa tumhara koi maabud nahin". Now, pay attention to the word maabud. It has the same root as "Abd". Maabud is the master and Abd is the slave. Bohras refer to themselves as "Abde Syedna" and the Syedna does not object. Hence for all abde syednas, the Syedna is their maabud. It means that both are party to the negation of the kalimah as translated by the author.

[fayyaaz]

The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.

That is mother's milk to your "mischievous serpent in our garden". He will run with it and milk it for for all it is worth.

You may clarify it in time but let me have a go. This topic was shifted By the Administration from another section to this one called "Dawoodi Bohra religion, rituals and customs". Maybe it should have a subtitle "Mainly for non-Bohras and anti-Bohras".

Let me use St. Anslem's argument regarding 'existence' being superior to 'non-existence' to bring another point of view to your statement. It is within the framework of the Bohra view of Islam. That view is not found in the Quran. I will let the "serpents" cry foul, mushriks and hurl other obscenities.

A living Nabi is superior to a dead Nabi. Musa when alive was superior dead Ibrahim. Muhammad when alive was superior to all previous Nabis. In death all Nabis are all equal.

Imamat is more basic that Nubuwwat. Imamat preceded Nubuwwat. Nubuwwat has ended, but Imamat will continue till the Day of Judgment.

A living Imam is superior to both a dead Imam and a dead Nabi because of his 'existence'.

Imam in 'satr' is alive and continues to operate through a Dai whom he has appointed. Just as Allah appoints a Nabi, Imam appoints a Dai. Thus, in this sense, a Dai is similar to Nabi. And because the Dai is alive, he is also superior to a dead Nabi.

How is Allah going to deal with corrupt Dai? Corrupt, that is, in one or more person's opinion? I will let Allah judge both his crime and his punishment.

Run with this "serpent"! Run!

[anajmi]

Seriously guys, the bullshit factory is running 24x7. In a sense a living scientist like fayyaaz is superior to a dead scientist like Einstein. Right Einstein?

Your post and your theories are like swiss cheese. Holes aplenty. Let me just start with one.

A living Imam is superior to both a dead Imam and a dead Nabi because of his 'existence'.

What about the hidden Imam? Man, as soon as the Imam went into hiding he threw all your theories down the drain.

And you are right, this is like mother's milk to me. I will be milking this for the next 14 years.

[anajmi]

Imamat is more basic that Nubuwwat. Imamat preceded Nubuwwat. Nubuwwat has ended, but Imamat will continue till the Day of Judgment.

Actually, Imamat ended as soon as the Imam went into hiding a thousand years ago.

[fayyaaz]

Reference to St. Anslem in my previous post is regarding his teleological argument for existence Of God. It has also been used by Muslim philosophers and known in Islam as "wajibul wujood".

[fayyaaz]

I see the "serpent" has picked it up and running with it full steam ahead. An 'anti-Bohra in a Bohra Garden' is nicely analogous to the proverbial serpent in Paradise causing fitna among Adam and Eve.

[anajmi]

Is St. Anslem living or dead? If he is dead, then his theory can be rejected in light of the theory of anajmi who is living. If he is alive, then we will wait till he dies and then we will reject it.

[anajmi]

Yep. he is dead. So his theory is no longer valid.

[anajmi]

By the way, if the Imam appointed SMS, then according to Biradar, the serpent is the head of the bohra garden.

[fayyaaz]

The da'i's, in one way, are like the nabis mentioned in the Quran, and in another sense superior to them.

That is mother's milk to your "mischievous serpent in our garden". He will run with it and milk it for for all it is worth.

You may clarify your quote above in time but let me have a go. This topic was shifted By the Administration from another section to this one called "Dawoodi Bohra religion, rituals and customs". Maybe it should have a subtitle "Mainly for non-Bohras and anti-Bohras".

Let me use St. Anslem's argument regarding 'existence' being superior to 'non-existence' to bring another point of view to your statement. It is within the framework of the Bohra view of Islam. That view is not found in the Quran. I will let the "serpents" cry foul, mushriks and hurl other obscenities.

A living Nabi is superior to a dead Nabi. Musa when alive was superior dead Ibrahim. Muhammad when alive was superior to all previous Nabis. In death all Nabis are all equal.

Imamat is more basic that Nubuwwat. Imamat preceded Nubuwwat. Nubuwwat has ended, but Imamat will continue till the Day of Judgment.

A living Imam is superior to both a dead Imam and a dead Nabi because of his 'existence'.

Imam in 'satr' is alive and continues to operate through a Dai whom he has appointed. Just as Allah appoints a Nabi, Imam appoints a Dai. Thus, in this sense, a Dai is similar to Nabi. And because the Dai is alive, he is also superior to a dead Nabi.

How is Allah going to deal with corrupt Dai? Corrupt, that is, in one or more person's opinion? I will let Allah judge both his crime and his punishment.

Run with this "serpent"! Run!

[anajmi]

So you mean to say that a new post is superior to the old post even if they both contain the exact same crap?

[SBM]

A living Imam is superior to both a dead Imam and a dead Nabi because of his 'existence'.

So Agha Khani have a living Imam, is he superior than a dead Imam or a hidden Imam?

[anajmi]

So Agha Khani have a living Imam, is he superior than a dead Imam or a hidden Imam?

Good point.

Surah Baqara 2:285.

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَمَلآئِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

This superiority argument between alive and dead is idiotic. One should follow that which is right. If a Dai is wrong, then reject him. Just because he is alive doesn't make him right, which is what this idiotic argument suggests. Now I am talking about the idiotic argument put forth by fayyaaz and not by the saint whatever. Allah says in the Quran, follow Allah, his prophet and those in authority amongst you. But then he clarifies, that if there is an argument, then refer back to Allah and his prophet (saw). So each Dai has to be evaluated not based upon his pulse, but based upon the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). The argument that he has to be right because the Imam appointed him is actually worthless as it has no basis in the Quran or the Sunnah of the prophet (saw).

Case in point is your very own SMS!!!

[fayyaaz]

Let me use St. Anslem's argument regarding 'existence' being superior to 'non-existence' to bring another point of view to your statement. It is within the framework of the Bohra view of Islam. That view is not found in the Quran. I will let the "serpents" cry foul, mushriks and hurl other obscenities.

Run with this "serpent"! Run!

Atta Boy!

[fayyaaz]

This topic was shifted By the Administration from another section to this one called the "Dawoodi Bohra religion, rituals and customs". Maybe it should have a subtitle "Mainly for non-Bohras and anti-Bohras".

[anajmi]

I did run with it and blew it to bits with the help of SBM, and some from SMS too. By the way, throwing a tantrum is the sign of being defeated. Now, I admit, you acknowledged that you will be defeated right at the beginning of your idiotic post.

[anajmi]

Atleast, biradar was smart enough to stay away from it. He let the bigger idiot take the hit.

[fayyaaz]

A living Imam is superior to both a dead Imam and a dead Nabi because of his 'existence'.

So Agha Khani have a living Imam, is he superior than a dead Imam or a hidden Imam?

For SBM and other intellectually-challenged partcipants, I have underlined the relevant portion of my post. Aga Khan is not the living Imam for Bohras. Their living Imam is in satr.

Let me use St. Anslem's argument regarding 'existence' being superior to 'non-existence' to bring another point of view to your statement. It is within the framework of the Bohra view of Islam. That view is not found in the Quran. I will let the "serpents" cry foul, mushriks and hurl other obscenities.

[KA786110]

The Messenger (Muhammad ) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” – and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).” (Al-Baqarah 2:285)

We heard and obeyed the Allah's Last Prophet's commands including the proclamation at Ghadir-E-Khum.

[anajmi]

So Agha Khani have a living Imam, is he superior than a dead Imam or a hidden Imam?

For SBM and other intellectually-challenged partcipants, I have underlined the relevant portion of my post. Aga Khan is not the living Imam for Bohras. Their living Imam is in satr.

Let me use St. Anslem's argument regarding 'existence' being superior to 'non-existence' to bring another point of view to your statement. It is within the framework of the Bohra view of Islam. That view is not found in the Quran. I will let the "serpents" cry foul, mushriks and hurl other obscenities.

Oh you idiot. Did St. Anslem propose the argument with the bohras and their hidden Imam in mind? Universally, SBM's question makes perfect sense and puts another big hole in your already cheesy argument. If existence is superior to non-existence, then the Aga Khani living Imam is superior to the bohra hidden Imam cause we have no idea if he is existing or not.

If bohra's have defined their own framework of Islam, then their hidden Imam, can be superior to only their other dead hidden Imams, and their living Dais can only be superior to only their own dead Dais (Of course this argument falls apart when you put SMS into the picture). They cannot apply this argument to Imams and Nabis and Rasuls that are a part of the overall Islamic framework. If they do, then as SBM has stated above, the Aga Khani living Imam is superior to the bohra hidden Imam.

[fayyaaz]

St. Anslem's argument is about the Existence of God in the Christian environment. I have used it to apply it within the Bohra framework. It is not Quranic or Islamic. I have applied it to Bohras only. It is an example of what is known as "Doxastic Closure" as it applies to Bohras only.

If you want to apply it to Aga Khanis, you can do that too. You can apply it to any closed belief system.

I know that you cannot digest what I am saying so just continue running with it in whichever way you can or want, "serpent".

[anajmi]

St. Anslem's argument is about the Existence of God in the Christian environment. I have used it to apply it within the Bohra framework. It is not Quranic or Islamic.

Thank you. Now go back and read your post and remove all references you have made to show how bohraism is Islamic. For eg. when you say Imam appointing Dai is the same as Allah appointing Nabi. It is not. Imam appointing Dai is an example of "Doxastic Closure" as it applies to Bohras only. It comes with a serving of pepto bismol.

[SBM]

Fayyaz
You keep on changing the goal posts when confronted with counter replies to your arguments. You sound like a perfect substitute for SMS

[fayyaaz]

St. Anslem's argument is about the Existence of God in the Christian environment. I have used it to apply it within the Bohra framework. It is not Quranic or Islamic.

Thank you. Now go back and read your post and remove all references you have made to show how bohraism is Islamic. For eg. when you say Imam appointing Dai is the same as Allah appointing Nabi. It is not. Imam appointing Dai is an example of "Doxastic Closure" as it applies to Bohras only. It comes with a serving of pepto bismol.

It is not Quranic but I believe it to be within the Bohra framework or their interpretation of Islam. Bohras generally do not participate on this site so the subject cannot be developed by more knowledgeable Bohras.

The framework would not be considered Islamic by non-Ismaili Muslims. That has been known for at least a thousand years.