Hi,
As-salaam,
i would like to suggest that why don't progressive's branch out of the community & choose their own leader & start their own affair's??Why are they always critising aqa moula,when you people are uncomfortable then choose your way out.No one is forcing or restricting you progressive's to be a part of dawoodibohra's & follow aqa moula.Then why you always interfere in our community matter's??WHY WHY you progressive's always concerned about kothar & aqamoula's wealth.I really dont understand what keeps your mind's mingling for aqa moula??Atlast i pray that Long Live our aqa moula.
Why don't progressive's branch out??
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
hello
brother Zia salaam to you
I disagree with you first of all our history of Dawoodi Bohra since 1539 through yemeni missionary came to india, thats our identity and musn't forget during our bohra history many Dais and follower had become martyr's and during moghual period dai fought for community they did use thier diplomatic skills when ever bohra mumineen were in danger and they fought for community not like present Dai he never bother to visit earthquake area in gujarat and many bohras lost their lives in communal riots, while he enjoys travelling abroad to UK,USA. Arab country, africa for milking bohra community.
we bohra community built with local roots we built jamaat khanas,musafir khanas madressas. , our Dais were very humble and brave they were in front line for bohra community, they never bow to the moghul atrocities and they become martyrs for shism and the community and our Dais were secretly helping very poor mumin if they were in dificulties,at that period Amils were not powewrful as they were not like present Dai family connection,and they get the post.
it seems you are saying to start new firqa never as these so called Kothar and present Sultan Mr Mohammed burhannuddin has start a cult it started from Sayedna saifuddin saheb the greed started from east africa back in 1960 i did post long time ago about east african bohra they are the one who start showering Taher saifuddin and Kothar with monies and gift and greed started before it was in 1950,s through the friend ship with congress nehru and other congress leader mr Taher saifuddin influence the indian secular judiciary and got away with excommunication clause, that time after independence congress party were keen to keep muslim vote bank to their side so every body were using every one.or Taher saifuddin saheb took advantages of Nehru and congress pary!!
sayedna like communism started nationalising musafirkhana,masjid and other charitable trust that he is the sole proprietor and Trustee of Bohra Community like communism and other dictator he start penalising Bohra community who speak out Excommunication,stopping of Burial,weddings. now they have got powerful tools Technology Kothar keep tags on Bohras from they were born till death.
Him and his family soley depend on Hand outs by force donation and religious Taxes,His family enjoys while poor and not well of Bohras suffer would you believe when poor bohra needs to have life saving operation in india he had to beg for monies but mostly they don't get the monies for opearation,as rich chamchas are on jumaat commitee even he is a thug and nasty.amil has given so much power that some amils fight for to go in wealthy jumaats where he can milk rich dawoodi bohra to part with their monies.
we have to fight for community as at the moment they are under trance by Kothar cult movement and control by fear of Baraat and intimidation Brother Zia Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and his family and KOthar it is not their monies it is community monies the wealth has created by our bohra community monies they are running a cult and never stop fighting for cause and justice for Bohra communities and those Bohra suffering in silent because of Kothar threat and Harrassment and intimidation like east and west germany unfication and fall of communism soon the communities will be liberated from clutches of Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and Kothar And Amils and chamchas and united to be more stronger without fear of nasty Kothar rules and regulation and to be true to islam to help poor,orphan and detitute widows and sick.
progressive will fight on for reform and to pressurise KOthar come to their senses, may Allahs willing it will be soon brother Zia i think you are in cooko land so wake up.
WA Salaam
brother Zia salaam to you
I disagree with you first of all our history of Dawoodi Bohra since 1539 through yemeni missionary came to india, thats our identity and musn't forget during our bohra history many Dais and follower had become martyr's and during moghual period dai fought for community they did use thier diplomatic skills when ever bohra mumineen were in danger and they fought for community not like present Dai he never bother to visit earthquake area in gujarat and many bohras lost their lives in communal riots, while he enjoys travelling abroad to UK,USA. Arab country, africa for milking bohra community.
we bohra community built with local roots we built jamaat khanas,musafir khanas madressas. , our Dais were very humble and brave they were in front line for bohra community, they never bow to the moghul atrocities and they become martyrs for shism and the community and our Dais were secretly helping very poor mumin if they were in dificulties,at that period Amils were not powewrful as they were not like present Dai family connection,and they get the post.
it seems you are saying to start new firqa never as these so called Kothar and present Sultan Mr Mohammed burhannuddin has start a cult it started from Sayedna saifuddin saheb the greed started from east africa back in 1960 i did post long time ago about east african bohra they are the one who start showering Taher saifuddin and Kothar with monies and gift and greed started before it was in 1950,s through the friend ship with congress nehru and other congress leader mr Taher saifuddin influence the indian secular judiciary and got away with excommunication clause, that time after independence congress party were keen to keep muslim vote bank to their side so every body were using every one.or Taher saifuddin saheb took advantages of Nehru and congress pary!!
sayedna like communism started nationalising musafirkhana,masjid and other charitable trust that he is the sole proprietor and Trustee of Bohra Community like communism and other dictator he start penalising Bohra community who speak out Excommunication,stopping of Burial,weddings. now they have got powerful tools Technology Kothar keep tags on Bohras from they were born till death.
Him and his family soley depend on Hand outs by force donation and religious Taxes,His family enjoys while poor and not well of Bohras suffer would you believe when poor bohra needs to have life saving operation in india he had to beg for monies but mostly they don't get the monies for opearation,as rich chamchas are on jumaat commitee even he is a thug and nasty.amil has given so much power that some amils fight for to go in wealthy jumaats where he can milk rich dawoodi bohra to part with their monies.
we have to fight for community as at the moment they are under trance by Kothar cult movement and control by fear of Baraat and intimidation Brother Zia Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and his family and KOthar it is not their monies it is community monies the wealth has created by our bohra community monies they are running a cult and never stop fighting for cause and justice for Bohra communities and those Bohra suffering in silent because of Kothar threat and Harrassment and intimidation like east and west germany unfication and fall of communism soon the communities will be liberated from clutches of Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and Kothar And Amils and chamchas and united to be more stronger without fear of nasty Kothar rules and regulation and to be true to islam to help poor,orphan and detitute widows and sick.
progressive will fight on for reform and to pressurise KOthar come to their senses, may Allahs willing it will be soon brother Zia i think you are in cooko land so wake up.
WA Salaam
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
WiseBohra,
I think comparing usurpation of community property with "nationalisation" is wrong. In fact, what we WANT is nationalisation - that jamaat properties should belong to the people of that jamaat and NOT to a self-appointed absentee dictator. Anyways, it's a minor point.
I agree with your comments, and here are my two cents, to reinforce your argument:
Zia,
Asking progressives to branch out is like telling the Palestinians to branch out of Palestine. It’s like telling them “since you have so many problems with the Israeli occupation, why don’t you guys stop resisting, get lost and go live someplace else.” In our priest-ridden, aqa maula-obsessed community it is unfortunate that there are many people like you who think in such absolute terms – “take it or leave it”, very similar to what that semi-literate, intellectually-challenged W. Bush says “you are with us or with them.” Bush thinks he owns the world. And your indoctrination makes you think that aqa maula owns the community. But he doesn’t, though he tries to own all of community’s assets and properties. He doesn’t own ours souls – at least not of progressives. Progressives are dawoodi bohras by birth, by tradition and by practice – whatever its worth – and we’re not giving up on our heritage anytime soon. To continue with the ‘occupation’ analogy, it is the ‘royal family’ that has hijacked – ‘occupied’ – our community and progressives are trying to resist it.
The problem is that you people have been brainwashed into always framing the reform issue in terms aqa maula alone. The issues is much larger, it is the hierarchical and repressive system of power and control that he and his family have set up. Much has been written and discussed about this – on this board/website and elsewhere. Try to read up and then make informed comments. Or you’ll be wasting everybody’s time.
I think comparing usurpation of community property with "nationalisation" is wrong. In fact, what we WANT is nationalisation - that jamaat properties should belong to the people of that jamaat and NOT to a self-appointed absentee dictator. Anyways, it's a minor point.
I agree with your comments, and here are my two cents, to reinforce your argument:
Zia,
Asking progressives to branch out is like telling the Palestinians to branch out of Palestine. It’s like telling them “since you have so many problems with the Israeli occupation, why don’t you guys stop resisting, get lost and go live someplace else.” In our priest-ridden, aqa maula-obsessed community it is unfortunate that there are many people like you who think in such absolute terms – “take it or leave it”, very similar to what that semi-literate, intellectually-challenged W. Bush says “you are with us or with them.” Bush thinks he owns the world. And your indoctrination makes you think that aqa maula owns the community. But he doesn’t, though he tries to own all of community’s assets and properties. He doesn’t own ours souls – at least not of progressives. Progressives are dawoodi bohras by birth, by tradition and by practice – whatever its worth – and we’re not giving up on our heritage anytime soon. To continue with the ‘occupation’ analogy, it is the ‘royal family’ that has hijacked – ‘occupied’ – our community and progressives are trying to resist it.
The problem is that you people have been brainwashed into always framing the reform issue in terms aqa maula alone. The issues is much larger, it is the hierarchical and repressive system of power and control that he and his family have set up. Much has been written and discussed about this – on this board/website and elsewhere. Try to read up and then make informed comments. Or you’ll be wasting everybody’s time.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
There is another analogy which I think is more apt in our situation. It is the analogy of the United States' declaration of independence from Britain.
By separating from Britain, Americans were not abandoning their cultural heritage. In fact, the subsequent success of the United States has made it the dominant culture of the West.
Unless there is a drastic destruction of the 'cult of the Dai', the Progresives and the Orthodox are not going to see eye to eye. Progressives appear to be wasting energy and time in fighting the corruption of the Orthodoxy.
Taking a separate road may be the best course available.
By separating from Britain, Americans were not abandoning their cultural heritage. In fact, the subsequent success of the United States has made it the dominant culture of the West.
Unless there is a drastic destruction of the 'cult of the Dai', the Progresives and the Orthodox are not going to see eye to eye. Progressives appear to be wasting energy and time in fighting the corruption of the Orthodoxy.
Taking a separate road may be the best course available.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Porus,
Your analogy is apt but only deceptively so. American colonialists and the British empire were cut from the same cloth - similar ideology, values, ambitions etc. The struggle between them was for political control which the American colonialists wrested in the end and went on to establish an empire of their own. Also, the two were separated by geographical space.
Progressives and the bohra clergy, on the other hand, are fighting for the same historical space but with contesting ideologies. The equation between them is that of victim and oppressor - (the Palestinian example is apt although I feel uneasy to cite it because our experience can't even begin to touch Palestinian suffering or Israeli brutality). In moral terms, the struggle is between right and wrong - it may seem unfashionable to say this but this is what it is.
Again, "corruption of the orthodoxy" and "the cult of the dai" are the same thing - progressives take corruption to mean more than mere money-grubbing, it also means perversion of religion of which the cult of the dai is only a part.
Taking a separate road might appear be the best thing to do, even easiest too. But will it be a wise or moral thing to do?
Your analogy is apt but only deceptively so. American colonialists and the British empire were cut from the same cloth - similar ideology, values, ambitions etc. The struggle between them was for political control which the American colonialists wrested in the end and went on to establish an empire of their own. Also, the two were separated by geographical space.
Progressives and the bohra clergy, on the other hand, are fighting for the same historical space but with contesting ideologies. The equation between them is that of victim and oppressor - (the Palestinian example is apt although I feel uneasy to cite it because our experience can't even begin to touch Palestinian suffering or Israeli brutality). In moral terms, the struggle is between right and wrong - it may seem unfashionable to say this but this is what it is.
Again, "corruption of the orthodoxy" and "the cult of the dai" are the same thing - progressives take corruption to mean more than mere money-grubbing, it also means perversion of religion of which the cult of the dai is only a part.
Taking a separate road might appear be the best thing to do, even easiest too. But will it be a wise or moral thing to do?
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Correction: It should read British colonialists not American colonialists.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Salaams,
Sadly, this has been the trend with the Bohra community and as well as the entire "Arab Religion". Instead of concentrating in the System of GOD, the Way of Life and studying the Quran, the Bohras are muddling and fuddling within themselves, others and their own man-made systems.Originally posted by Zia:
Hi,
As-salaam,
i would like to suggest that why don't progressive's branch out of the community & choose their own leader & start their own affair's??Why are they always critising aqa moula,when you people are uncomfortable then choose your way out.No one is forcing or restricting you progressive's to be a part of dawoodibohra's & follow aqa moula.Then why you always interfere in our community matter's??WHY WHY you progressive's always concerned about kothar & aqamoula's wealth.I really dont understand what keeps your mind's mingling for aqa moula??Atlast i pray that Long Live our aqa moula.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Zia will never come back.....!!!!
Zia is only by name zia, no 'roshnee' - all the light has been taken up by aqa moula only. burhan only teaches one thing - his slavery and thats up. he is a dictator and should be fought with. Progressive are not gonna leave..!!! they are here to stay and win. TRUTH eventually wins.
Zia is only by name zia, no 'roshnee' - all the light has been taken up by aqa moula only. burhan only teaches one thing - his slavery and thats up. he is a dictator and should be fought with. Progressive are not gonna leave..!!! they are here to stay and win. TRUTH eventually wins.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Further to Humsafars comments, we can also take the analogy of a country like India, Pakistan or England. If for example, England were to say that England was for the Christians and anybody else either convert to Christianity or become second class citizens or leave the country, would that be acceptable to non Christians? I am sure there would be a hue and cry, yet you have the audacity to suggest to us to leave our birth right.
We are here to stay and we wait the moment when we will have honorable Dais. This is not asking for much because 50 years ago we had clean leaders, we will continue our struggle until that happens. Right has to rule over wrong and truth must prevail.
We are here to stay and we wait the moment when we will have honorable Dais. This is not asking for much because 50 years ago we had clean leaders, we will continue our struggle until that happens. Right has to rule over wrong and truth must prevail.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
We are here to stay and we wait the moment when we will have honorable Dais. That is a very idealistic and unrealistic approach and not likely to happen again. This is a money game now and the father-to-son transition will not be broken.
None of analogies presented are appropriate as they refer to geographical strifes. Separation with an alternative structure appears to be the only option for the progressive movement.
None of analogies presented are appropriate as they refer to geographical strifes. Separation with an alternative structure appears to be the only option for the progressive movement.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
To a certain extent the reformists already have their separate jamaat organizations, mosques and activities. But this is usually a matter of practical necessity (due to baraat, etc), not choice.
Total separation is cowardly and a statement of defeat for the reformists. Neither is there any doctrinal grounds to warrant separation nor will it achieve any part of the reformist cause. You can't reform any society by getting out of it. The only ones to benefit from separation are the orthodoxy as they will finally have gotten rid off of a thorn on their side.
To those who despair and utter defeat before even trying: its just as well you abandoned the Bohra sect. It takes courage, after all, to stay in the community and stand up against such powerful forces. It takes courage to do the right thing regardless of the short-term or personal consquences. Those who have struggled deserve our support and encouragement.
Separation is not an option.
Total separation is cowardly and a statement of defeat for the reformists. Neither is there any doctrinal grounds to warrant separation nor will it achieve any part of the reformist cause. You can't reform any society by getting out of it. The only ones to benefit from separation are the orthodoxy as they will finally have gotten rid off of a thorn on their side.
To those who despair and utter defeat before even trying: its just as well you abandoned the Bohra sect. It takes courage, after all, to stay in the community and stand up against such powerful forces. It takes courage to do the right thing regardless of the short-term or personal consquences. Those who have struggled deserve our support and encouragement.
Separation is not an option.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
You are already separate ! You simply don't have a viable alternative for the disenchanted. I support your intentions, but not your strategy. I also realize that it takes a lot of bank to setup an alternative structure that you don't have access to.Separation is not an option.
If you were a Branch Davidian disenchanted with David Koresh, and you are free to leave, do you say "we need someone in that position but just not David" or do you move on and do your thing ?
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
The Branch Davidians were a cult. The Bohras are not a cult - though it has been turned into one under the tutelage of the last two dais. The whole point of the reform movement is to destroy this cult, this compulsive-obsessive dai worship - that is why we face such a stiff opposition from the clergy. Besides, the progressive do not question the office of the dai, only the conduct of the present incumbent and his mismanagement of the community.
No dominant and established elites in history have given up power and control without a fight -and by the same token, no people have gained rights and freedoms without challenging and resisting the established order.
For progressives it would be easy to branch out, but the idea is to make the whole community progressive - not abandon it.
No dominant and established elites in history have given up power and control without a fight -and by the same token, no people have gained rights and freedoms without challenging and resisting the established order.
For progressives it would be easy to branch out, but the idea is to make the whole community progressive - not abandon it.
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Average Bohra
- Posts: 924
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:01 am
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
I disagree with you in that I believe the Bohras are a cult, [but they didn't use to be]. I do not believe in a hidden imam and therefore I question the office of the Dai. My intent however is not to discuss our religious beliefs, as I respect yours.
Am I mistaken in thinking that you have your own Jamat in Udaipur ? If so, is that then not separate ? Do progressives attend the same jamaats and convince people to join their movement using newsletters, mailings, emails, discussion groups, openly challenging the hierarchy from within, [all aimed at the orthodox] ? Then you would be correct in saying that it is indeed a reform movement from within and not separate.
Am I mistaken in thinking that you have your own Jamat in Udaipur ? If so, is that then not separate ? Do progressives attend the same jamaats and convince people to join their movement using newsletters, mailings, emails, discussion groups, openly challenging the hierarchy from within, [all aimed at the orthodox] ? Then you would be correct in saying that it is indeed a reform movement from within and not separate.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
This is on the comment by JC.I would like to share & what i have seen & studied that there is only one aim of progressive's that is to criticise aqa moula,nothing else.If you are really so much worried about the community & wanna bring reform's then just leave the criticing path & do some noble deed to mankind.i feel now that by raising an topic or to share something with these progressive's is just a waste of time.It's really useless to share with these progressive's as at the end they have only one thing to do......just to critise aqa moula.Do something else.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Brother Zia
We are not here to critisize any one .we are against the system,we are against the hypocracy in our religion.We are against the way they treat us .we are against the Innovations being created in our community and they are the grave sins in the eyes of Allah.We are against the system where they collect huge sum from us and never account for it.we are against the wastage of money in jamans and not using our hard earned money for prospective reasons.
How can they afford to buy a cama house when many of our brothers are begging outside Ruadat Tahera .there are hundreds of issues which they need to clarify.
I agree that by branching out from the community our purpose would not be served.we must raise the issues within our community.we must fight for our rights.all we need is to unite and ask them face to face instead of breaking our head infront of this pc.
We are not here to critisize any one .we are against the system,we are against the hypocracy in our religion.We are against the way they treat us .we are against the Innovations being created in our community and they are the grave sins in the eyes of Allah.We are against the system where they collect huge sum from us and never account for it.we are against the wastage of money in jamans and not using our hard earned money for prospective reasons.
How can they afford to buy a cama house when many of our brothers are begging outside Ruadat Tahera .there are hundreds of issues which they need to clarify.
I agree that by branching out from the community our purpose would not be served.we must raise the issues within our community.we must fight for our rights.all we need is to unite and ask them face to face instead of breaking our head infront of this pc.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Brother Zia
you are completley brain washed by Mr Mohammed burhannuddin and kothar.Thats how cultist work firsr complete loyalty and what they do to other human being the cult follower always think he is doing right even he is doing wrong.
what about force donation,stopping weddings,funeral,intimidation on own bohra communtiy while appeasing nazi in gujarat like Modi chief minister whose thugs in communal riots is responsible for many bohra lost their lives and lively hood,gujarat earth quake mr mohammed burhanuddin never bother visit many tramatised bohara family.while he goes on expensive trip abroad to rich bohra which the all monies collected by him and kothar goes in his family coffer.
Brother Zia either you are in dream world,and you are very selfish and opportunist as when reign of Sultan Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin falls person like you will be first to switch side.
progressive bohra is not going to let reform issue go Mr Mohammed Burhanuddin and KOTHAR has to reform and give all the monies back to bohra community and jumaat where it belongs and to run their own affair without interference from KOTHAR any way he is not going to take monies with him when he meets his creator.
long live progressive movement with allah's blessing in this Holy month of Ramazan the truth wil prevail and Mr Mohammed Burhanuddin reign of greed,and terror will be over and bohra community will be atlast free from deadly clutches of Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and Kothar and Musn't forget those nasty and dreadful Amils.
LONG LIVE PROGRESSIVE Movement.
you are completley brain washed by Mr Mohammed burhannuddin and kothar.Thats how cultist work firsr complete loyalty and what they do to other human being the cult follower always think he is doing right even he is doing wrong.
what about force donation,stopping weddings,funeral,intimidation on own bohra communtiy while appeasing nazi in gujarat like Modi chief minister whose thugs in communal riots is responsible for many bohra lost their lives and lively hood,gujarat earth quake mr mohammed burhanuddin never bother visit many tramatised bohara family.while he goes on expensive trip abroad to rich bohra which the all monies collected by him and kothar goes in his family coffer.
Brother Zia either you are in dream world,and you are very selfish and opportunist as when reign of Sultan Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin falls person like you will be first to switch side.
progressive bohra is not going to let reform issue go Mr Mohammed Burhanuddin and KOTHAR has to reform and give all the monies back to bohra community and jumaat where it belongs and to run their own affair without interference from KOTHAR any way he is not going to take monies with him when he meets his creator.
long live progressive movement with allah's blessing in this Holy month of Ramazan the truth wil prevail and Mr Mohammed Burhanuddin reign of greed,and terror will be over and bohra community will be atlast free from deadly clutches of Mr Mohammed Burhannuddin and Kothar and Musn't forget those nasty and dreadful Amils.
LONG LIVE PROGRESSIVE Movement.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Average Bohra,
In Udaipur it started out as a reform movement from within - reformists had full control of the jamaat, mosques and other properties. When they were ex-communicated en mass they basically retained control over community properties. So in fact it were the kothar loyalists in Udaipur who "separated" themselves.
But your point is well taken. There used to be a well-organised 'underground' movement in bombay, surat, godhra etc. mobilising Bohras from within. I don't know whether it still exists. But reformists do have a number of publications, including this website to inform and educate bohras about the corruption and perversion of their religion. And all reformists have their relatives and friends on the 'other side'. When we meet the issue of reform invariably comes up and their position is simply this (at least in my experience): let the sleeping dog lie.
So the point is, it's not that common bohras are not aware of what is going on in the community, and not everyone approves of it either. It's just that they lack the courage and motivation to do something about it. And they lack courage because being typical trades people, they find it pragmatic to trade in their dignity, freedom and heritage for convenience, false identity and spurious religion.
The clergy knows the weaknesses and anxieties of Bohras down pat, and it is exploiting them for whatever they are worth. What bohras need is a jolt to their conscience. But even then, I guess, it would not be enough. If they tolerate the system for practical reasons, they will begin to challenge it only when it is not longer practical for them to tolerate it. What is it that will make it practical for them to challenge the system, I know not. Perhaps, it may never happen. But one thing is for sure, the clergy will sooner or later bound to self-destruct given its vulgar excesses and hubris. Mighty empires have fallen and gone to dust, this petty outfit will meet the same fate.
Even so, as long as it is around it is doing real damage to people. And the only surefire way to bring about change is to challenge and resist every mullah at every jamaat, support individuals and families who do so, form groups and devise ways to make life difficult for them, ask questions, question their authority, demand jamaat elections - in a word: ORGANISE.
In Udaipur it started out as a reform movement from within - reformists had full control of the jamaat, mosques and other properties. When they were ex-communicated en mass they basically retained control over community properties. So in fact it were the kothar loyalists in Udaipur who "separated" themselves.
But your point is well taken. There used to be a well-organised 'underground' movement in bombay, surat, godhra etc. mobilising Bohras from within. I don't know whether it still exists. But reformists do have a number of publications, including this website to inform and educate bohras about the corruption and perversion of their religion. And all reformists have their relatives and friends on the 'other side'. When we meet the issue of reform invariably comes up and their position is simply this (at least in my experience): let the sleeping dog lie.
So the point is, it's not that common bohras are not aware of what is going on in the community, and not everyone approves of it either. It's just that they lack the courage and motivation to do something about it. And they lack courage because being typical trades people, they find it pragmatic to trade in their dignity, freedom and heritage for convenience, false identity and spurious religion.
The clergy knows the weaknesses and anxieties of Bohras down pat, and it is exploiting them for whatever they are worth. What bohras need is a jolt to their conscience. But even then, I guess, it would not be enough. If they tolerate the system for practical reasons, they will begin to challenge it only when it is not longer practical for them to tolerate it. What is it that will make it practical for them to challenge the system, I know not. Perhaps, it may never happen. But one thing is for sure, the clergy will sooner or later bound to self-destruct given its vulgar excesses and hubris. Mighty empires have fallen and gone to dust, this petty outfit will meet the same fate.
Even so, as long as it is around it is doing real damage to people. And the only surefire way to bring about change is to challenge and resist every mullah at every jamaat, support individuals and families who do so, form groups and devise ways to make life difficult for them, ask questions, question their authority, demand jamaat elections - in a word: ORGANISE.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
I agree with Average Bohra on Imam. I agree to other contents by others except the defendant of Burhan, Mr. Zia.
There is no hidden Imam. Imamat is lost and keeping in mind the ground realities of today, i guess we do not need one. Since there is no Imam, WHO is Dai, nothing. As is they have made it father-to-son (which was not supposed to be). Time will soon come when Dai and Imam will be merged and coming Dai will declare himself Imam to better control the community and milk more money. They will come up with some Family Tree to prove that and fools will trust and believe in that. You can note this as coming. Purjosh Matam, every day recitiation of Shahadat-e-Hussain, matam after every Farz namaz and more and more harping and emphasis on Imam Hussain and Karbala ...... news of Zaree of Maulatuna Fatema and all that stuff ....... now even Amils do purjosh matam ...........
So we will see this cult and dictators becoming more powerful in the name of Religion.
Reformists and Progressive should stay within the community to teach others and wake them up in any manner they can and simultaneoulsy try to have a separate set up of their own (like Udaipur Jamat). We should have 'parallel run' and see what runs better.
There is no hidden Imam. Imamat is lost and keeping in mind the ground realities of today, i guess we do not need one. Since there is no Imam, WHO is Dai, nothing. As is they have made it father-to-son (which was not supposed to be). Time will soon come when Dai and Imam will be merged and coming Dai will declare himself Imam to better control the community and milk more money. They will come up with some Family Tree to prove that and fools will trust and believe in that. You can note this as coming. Purjosh Matam, every day recitiation of Shahadat-e-Hussain, matam after every Farz namaz and more and more harping and emphasis on Imam Hussain and Karbala ...... news of Zaree of Maulatuna Fatema and all that stuff ....... now even Amils do purjosh matam ...........
So we will see this cult and dictators becoming more powerful in the name of Religion.
Reformists and Progressive should stay within the community to teach others and wake them up in any manner they can and simultaneoulsy try to have a separate set up of their own (like Udaipur Jamat). We should have 'parallel run' and see what runs better.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
All you progs (muddais),
We do not want vermin like you in our community: go where you belong , bathakta huwa kutaras.
We do not want vermin like you in our community: go where you belong , bathakta huwa kutaras.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
welcome trance on this forum, but couldn't you have said something more sensible than "We do not want vermin like you in our community: go where you belong , bathakta huwa kutaras" This lack of arguments goes on to show how brain washed you are. And what has happened, no more laanats anymore?ha ha ha.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Asking progressives to branch out is like telling Imam Husain either give beyat (Misaq or oath of alligience to the Muslim Khalifa) or branch out from Islam.
Like today's opportunist Bohras if Imam Husain had joined hands with Yazid he would have given a high position in Yazid's darbar and would have enjoyed life in luxury. But the Imam Husain prefered to defy the dictates of then Muslim Khalifa who had destroyed the spirit of Islam and was not behaving like Khalifa but like a Sultan. Islam was converted into Monarachy by Banu-Ummayads. Since Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin's time Fatimi Dawat has also become a monarchy with Sayedna as Sultan and his children as Prince and prencess living in Palaces and indulging in luxury and expoitation.
So if we are true followers of Islam and supporters of Imam Husain we must oppose this monarchy which is against our religion and our Dawat.
Like today's opportunist Bohras if Imam Husain had joined hands with Yazid he would have given a high position in Yazid's darbar and would have enjoyed life in luxury. But the Imam Husain prefered to defy the dictates of then Muslim Khalifa who had destroyed the spirit of Islam and was not behaving like Khalifa but like a Sultan. Islam was converted into Monarachy by Banu-Ummayads. Since Late Sayedna Taher Saifuddin's time Fatimi Dawat has also become a monarchy with Sayedna as Sultan and his children as Prince and prencess living in Palaces and indulging in luxury and expoitation.
So if we are true followers of Islam and supporters of Imam Husain we must oppose this monarchy which is against our religion and our Dawat.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Well said Insaf. Your purjosh matam has no value nor any significance if you are not going to understand Imam Hussein's sacrifice. The only time it has significance is when you step up to the plate and understand righ from wrong; do not justify tyranny because you have to be comfortable.
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
May Allah punish them and destroy them if they don't come back to Islam.
May allah's curse on this syendna and the khothar gang if they don't come back to Islam!
We are living in the 21st century.We have many opportuniTes to increase our knowledge and believe.Does Sydna has anything offer than teach us to obey him!
It is our duty to educate the community before it becomes too late!
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May allah's curse on this syendna and the khothar gang if they don't come back to Islam!
We are living in the 21st century.We have many opportuniTes to increase our knowledge and believe.Does Sydna has anything offer than teach us to obey him!
It is our duty to educate the community before it becomes too late!
===============================
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Why then do the progressives consider the dai to be the true dai? Imam Hussein did not believe that Yazid was the true Khalifa!!
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Few trust and believe in burhan (so called dai) - but every one is having fun time. Bohras are used to 'getting' this at 'full length'.......
Look at the age ....... time, development, knowledge, religion is PAST, today we donot need any religion at all ..... what does burhan sell??!!
Religions are the Great Divide. Bohraism is a 'piddi' divide. They all want POWER, it is all power game. The fools kiss the hands, feet of every pitty amil ..... do sajda to every a***** of so called royal family ....!!! what do u expect of them.....
Bohras, today have no self-respect. They are born slaves, educated slaves who are always open to be f*****
Even God is not going to help them coz they have to help theselves first.
I am a bohra (sadly) but hate to be. I avoid all this BS, avoid them as much possible, pay as little, try to teach others, i m within them but not with them (they call me Munafiq) but i have to as i feel i can still change a few hearts PLUS i m stucked, i have family friends relatives so i have to proceed gradually and i am ..... if there are a few more like me, AWAKENING will come, SOON.........
Look at the age ....... time, development, knowledge, religion is PAST, today we donot need any religion at all ..... what does burhan sell??!!
Religions are the Great Divide. Bohraism is a 'piddi' divide. They all want POWER, it is all power game. The fools kiss the hands, feet of every pitty amil ..... do sajda to every a***** of so called royal family ....!!! what do u expect of them.....
Bohras, today have no self-respect. They are born slaves, educated slaves who are always open to be f*****
Even God is not going to help them coz they have to help theselves first.
I am a bohra (sadly) but hate to be. I avoid all this BS, avoid them as much possible, pay as little, try to teach others, i m within them but not with them (they call me Munafiq) but i have to as i feel i can still change a few hearts PLUS i m stucked, i have family friends relatives so i have to proceed gradually and i am ..... if there are a few more like me, AWAKENING will come, SOON.........
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serendipity
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Wed Jun 05, 2002 4:01 am
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Same sad story. We are inspired by the Imam, we deny the Imam! Which is it going to be? Bohras either believe in their heritage or they DON'T. (Clearly JC and average bohra don’t.) What about the rest of you? I would say to S. Insaf, resist if you must, but be TRUE – that is, ”true followers of Islam and supporters of Imam Husain” as you put it! If you agree with JC that “Imamat is lost and keeping in mind the ground realities of today, I guess we do not need one”, you have moved SO FAR beyond the cornerstone of Bohra conviction, that there is no point in even having this discussion!
Re: Why don't progressive's branch out??
Serendi
You are right.....
IMAMAT has lost its track and value keeping in mind the ground realities.
Bohra Community at best is a Community only, a group or bunch of people with similar traditions, customs, dress, language etc. It is kind of a country without geographical or political boundaries.
To me RELIGION is Great Divide...
To me Political Boundaries is only a Geographical Divide..
AND I do not believe in Division. I can understand there will be no parity, there will be no perfect equilibrium .......... BUT the world and human race must move towards Globalization and Oneness. Let religion be very personal matter if at all you want it. We have to think far and wise .... Earth and God has given us Wisdom and Power to Seek knowledge and Conqer the Stars .........
You are right.....
IMAMAT has lost its track and value keeping in mind the ground realities.
Bohra Community at best is a Community only, a group or bunch of people with similar traditions, customs, dress, language etc. It is kind of a country without geographical or political boundaries.
To me RELIGION is Great Divide...
To me Political Boundaries is only a Geographical Divide..
AND I do not believe in Division. I can understand there will be no parity, there will be no perfect equilibrium .......... BUT the world and human race must move towards Globalization and Oneness. Let religion be very personal matter if at all you want it. We have to think far and wise .... Earth and God has given us Wisdom and Power to Seek knowledge and Conqer the Stars .........