Looking for 2 books

[anajmi]

Yet, an "Aadam" did exist and his "fall" led to the creation of the Earth and its inhabitants.

This is in contradiction to the Quran. Read surah Baqara. Allah says to his angels that he is going to create a khalifa on earth. The angels ask why he wants to create a khalifa who will spread corruption on earth. Allah responds by saying that He knows what they know not and then He imparted his knowledge to Adam. This entire incident can be found atarting from ayah 38.

So Adam was created for earth. His fall wasnt the reason for the creation of earth. Of course ismaili "deeper" and "colorful" knowledge couldnt handle simple things so here we are with the likes of SMS and his minions running around!

[Biradar]

Yet, an "Aadam" did exist and his "fall" led to the creation of the Earth and its inhabitants.

This is in contradiction to the Quran. Read surah Baqara. Allah says to his angels that he is going to create a khalifa on earth. The angels ask why he wants to create a khalifa who will spread corruption on earth. Allah responds by saying that He knows what they know not and then He imparted his knowledge to Adam. This entire incident can be found atarting from ayah 38.

So Adam was created for earth. His fall wasnt the reason for the creation of earth. Of course ismaili "deeper" and "colorful" knowledge couldnt handle simple things so here we are with the likes of SMS and his minions running around!

Ignorance, as usual. You first need to figure out the voice of the Quran. Who is speaking and to whom. Then we can talk further. In any case, please, if you want to be a goat gnawing on rinds, fine with me.

[anajmi]

First Allah is talking to the angels. Then the angels are responding to Allah. Then Allah is teaching Adam, then He is commanding the angels to bow down to Adam. Actually, it is pretty simple if you filter out the "color" added by ismailism!

[anajmi]

Actually, let us first complete the discussion on the multi-adams and cyclical prophets before we get into a different topic. I shouldnt let you off the hook that easy.

[Biradar]

Actually, let us first complete the discussion on the multi-adams and cyclical prophets before we get into a different topic. I shouldnt let you off the hook that easy.

You know, I had you on ignore for a reason. As I said, first learn to figure out the voice of the Quran. Who is speaking to whom. Then we can talk. Next, collate all the various bits about Aadam in the Quran. Then from the sayings of the prophet and Ali. We can think through these then.

[anajmi]

Oh now i see. Everytime the quran talks about Adam it is talking about a different adam and hence multi-adams. My eyes have now been opened. Thank you for participating. I think it is time to move on. There is nothing more to be learned from this discussion.

[anajmi]

Actually let me rephrase. Nothing to be learned from biradar. I did give some references that might prove useful.

[Biradar]

Actually let me rephrase. Nothing to be learned from biradar. I did give some references that might prove useful.

Correct. A blind man who is told about colors will not believe it. Such is your case. Pointless going on.

[Biradar]

Incidentally, those who would like to understand the linguistic aspect of the Quran should consult the online Quran Arabic Corpus:

http://corpus.quran.com

This shows a very detailed and through analysis of the linguistics of the Quran, and shows several translations into English. Of course, this is just linguistics. The tafsir literature is enormous and even glancing through a few pages of say Ibn Kathir shows the complexity of understanding even the zaarhir (outward) meaning of the Quran. One can imagine that the task of understanding the taweel aspects is even harder, as it requires a proper understanding, first, of the voice of the Quran and second, the allusions of the distinctive terminology of the Quran. It is not a surprising thing that the essential aspects of the Arabic language were developed specifically to understand the Quran, which has many unique and distinctive features, which are not easy even for native Arabic speakers. Otherwise, the prophet would not be needed to explain the subtle issues, and voluminous tafsirs would not need to be written.

This research into the Quran has gone on for 1400 years, and will continue for 1000 more. Unlike the blind goats and sheep who think they 'understand" everything, a real and deep understanding is not fully possible by humans. The Quran itself says so. All we can hope is to keep an open mind, not be cocksure like the goats and sheep, and keep learning.

[anajmi]

It is amazing how people can post so much and yet say absolutely nothing of relevance. Not a single reference from the quran and sunnah about the multi-adams or cyclical prophets. All biradar has clarified is that he absolutely has no idea and will take him another 1000 years to figure it out.

Forget him. Come get the easy quran instead.

[Biradar]

It is amazing how people can post so much and yet say absolutely nothing of relevance. Not a single reference from the quran and sunnah about the multi-adams or cyclical prophets. All biradar has clarified is that he absolutely has no idea and will take him another 1000 years to figure it out.

Forget him. Come get the easy quran instead.

Correct. Even in a 1000 years you won't learn from me. You are a blind goat, who can not be taught. You have proved that over and over and over. Others who have approached me in PMs have learned. Your blindness has prevented you from seeing, and will continue to prevent you from seeing. Sorry.

[anajmi]

Most people trying to teach through PMs are con men. This is similar to how bohras teach only in sabaks. And we all know how much "knowledge" is imparted in sabaks!

[Biradar]

Most people trying to teach through PMs are con men. This is similar to how bohras teach only in sabaks. And we all know how much "knowledge" is imparted in sabaks!

How do you know? Have you taken sabaak? Don't be a fool. Sabaak is simply a traditional way of learning. Nothing secret or mysterious about it.

[ghulam muhammed]

For books on Dawoodi Bohras, one could try here :-

http://www.indiamart.com/darul-kutub-mu ... ducts.html

[yuzarsif]

Yet, an "Aadam" did exist and his "fall" led to the creation of the Earth and its inhabitants.

This is in contradiction to the Quran. Read surah Baqara. Allah says to his angels that he is going to create a khalifa on earth. The angels ask why he wants to create a khalifa who will spread corruption on earth. Allah responds by saying that He knows what they know not and then He imparted his knowledge to Adam. This entire incident can be found atarting from ayah 38.

So Adam was created for earth. His fall wasnt the reason for the creation of earth. Of course ismaili "deeper" and "colorful" knowledge couldnt handle simple things so here we are with the likes of SMS and his minions running around!

Listen to this..Ustad Nouman Ali khan talks about this event...
The Fall of Satan and the Rise of Adam - Nouman Ali Khan - Gulf Tour 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpZH1lQmuE4

[anajmi]

He says that jannah will have fruits. What is he smoking. According to the colorful taawil from Ali fruits doesnt actually mean fruits. It means something else, but the prime rule of taawil is not to tell taawil so i wont tell you what the fruits are. But i will tell you to go to the library.

[Biradar]

Blind goats, and their one-eyes cheelas will graze on the skins, yet never taste the heavenly fruits. For they have smoked the weeds of their masters, One, Two, Three, Muawiya and Yazid.

Once, when the great Sayedna Hamid al-Din Kirmani (RA), one of the greatest philosopher and theologian of the Fatimid empire (and perhaps tout court) was asked about taweel and haqiaat by some mischief makers, just like the Yazid loving blind goat here. Kirmani's response was:

The replies to all these questions are found with us, the assembly of dua't, and with the Imam al-Hakim. It is given to those who deserve receiving it. You, however, have severed your connections, and ... cannot expect to receive it. However, if you repent and return upon the path of the faithful, we will give you the knowledge about these things and many other things to nourish you.

For the others here: when one reads the Qur'an, one must keep in mind that the Qur'anic language is layered. Often, the meaning of a set of verses is obvious. Other times it is not. Specially in historical matters, the "history" may not actually be in space-time but refer to a higher plane of reality. The lecturer in the above youtube video also says that the history in the Qur'an is not just stories about the past. However, he misses the symbolism as he can not look beyond the ink on the page. A key question to ask is what voice speaks and who the verse addressed to.

In the verses about Adaam, there are many strange things. I pointed one out, i.e. the nature of the tree which Aadam was forbidden to eat from. Why was this tree put there in the first place? If it was a wheat tree (as some maintain) and Aadam could not have digested it as he did not have intestines (I kid you not, this is the level of ridiculous discourse among the blind goats), why was it the only thing not permitted to him, while other trees and fruits apparently also would need the proper digestive system to digest? Why were Aadam's progeny also punished? What happens to "fruits" which one consumes in heaven?

Allah says in Q 2:31 that Allah taught the "names - all of them" to Aadam. What were these names? I mean, how come knowing "names" of things is important, when actually it is obvious to even a child (but not a blind goat) that a name and the named thing are two different things?

The story of Aadam in other places in the Qur'an is also very mysterious. For example, consider Q 7:172

And when thy Lord took from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify touching themselves, 'Am I not your Lord?' They said, 'Yes, we testify'-- lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection, 'As for us, we were heedless of this,'

Here, one should ask the goats why Allah says "... Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed, and made them testify …", and where this happened? Was this in physical space-time? What does the word "seed" mean? And, what is the importance of the words "alastu birabbikum"?

In any case, bind goats will bleat on and on, but remain ignorant. Others can learn if they wish.

[anajmi]

one of the greatest philosopher and theologian of the Fatimid empire (and perhaps tout court) was asked about taweel and haqiaat by some mischief makers, just like the Yazid loving blind goat here. Kirmani's response was:

The crap fed to these people is amazing. If you ask about taawil you are automatically a mischief maker and hence they will never tell you about it. Actually there is nothing to tell because taawil as taught by these conmen is nothing more than bullshit. Allah says in the quran that those who dwell on taawil are those with darkness in their hearts. I wouldn't trust Kirmani with any knowledge about Islam and Quran because he has no aurhority to withhold knowledge from anyone. In the quran Allah admonishes the one who withholds knowledge. But obviously kirmani is reading his own crap.

Even the prophet (saw) himself never laid down such a condition. Then who is kirmani!

[anajmi]

Infact I would say that it is a blessing from Allah that kirmani chose to keep his knowledge a secret. It has kept idol worship contained within a minority of misguided muslims.

[Biradar]

Knowledge is not secret at all. It is openly available. In fact, as the quote by S. Kirmani (RA) shows "… if you repent and return upon the path of the faithful, we will give you the knowledge about these things and many other things to nourish you."

All you need to do is grow eyesight and evolve into a human. Being a blind goat excludes you from understanding. I mean, if I give a book of Shakespeare to a goat he will chew it up for lunch. Its not that Shakespeare is secret, but simply not comprehensible to a goat. Thats all.

Anyway, this discussion has gone on long enough. Your ignorance and stubbornness to remain ignorant is here for everyone to see. You have been on this board for 15 long years, yet remain ignorant. Pointless going on and on.

[Jai]

Yet, an "Aadam" did exist and his "fall" led to the creation of the Earth and its inhabitants.

This is in contradiction to the Quran. Read surah Baqara. Allah says to his angels that he is going to create a khalifa on earth. The angels ask why he wants to create a khalifa who will spread corruption on earth. Allah responds by saying that He knows what they know not and then He imparted his knowledge to Adam. This entire incident can be found atarting from ayah 38.

So Adam was created for earth. His fall wasnt the reason for the creation of earth. Of course ismaili "deeper" and "colorful" knowledge couldnt handle simple things so here we are with the likes of SMS and his minions running around!

Below is the translation of Surah Al Baqara verse no. 30 and Surah Sad verse no. 71 and 72

Sahih International - Surah 2 verse 30
And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Yusuf Ali - Surah 2 verse 30
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

Surah Sad 38:71
Sahih International
[So mention] when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I am going to create a human being from clay.

Surah Sad 38:72
Sahih International
So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My [created] soul, then fall down to him in prostration."

Here we can see that the Angels are informing about a new creation of clay that it will cause mischief and bloodshed just based on hearing the intention of Allah swt and questioned His swt intention.
As it is evident from history that there was a bloodshed immediately between Adam a.s. sons Habil and Qabil. Qabil killed Habil. Since then till today the earth is filled with curruption and bloodshed and our whole history is full of it. So the future information given by Angels was absolutely correct. It could only mean either the Angels had ilm e gaib (unseen/hidden/future knowledge) or else they had witnessed similar creation made of clay before.

Brother Anajmi and people who deny ilm e gaib could be possesed by creation, I would like to know from you your opinion, how come the Angels accurately predict about the new creation without ever seeing it, just from hearing Allah swt intentions? Was it because the Angels had ilm e gaib or similar creation had been witnessed by them earlier or is there a third possibility?

If it is due to ilm e gaib then, if many Angels can have ilm e gaib then why cant the Adam a.s. who is superior to Angels have it or the few chosen ones who are superior to Adam a.s. cant have it?

If the Angels accurately giving out future information of Adam and his progeny and confidentely questioning Allah swt was due to their witnessing of a similar creation earlier, then Ismaili theory of multiple Adam and their cycle could be true and requires a unbiased and deep study without any prejudice.

I am not proposing anything here. I would like to suggest to my brothers and sisters to sometimes ponder and reason with your own logic while reading the Holy Quran, it will either result in new understanding/answers or else raise a question.
Questions brings us in a state of unrest and we start seeking answer to come back in a state of rest like all the things in nature. If we are sincere and honest and open in our search, we will not just find the answers but also the true source, rightful heir inshallah.
As per one saying either of the Prophet sws or maybe the Imam a.s - knowledge is lock and question is its key.
There are other references also which i have read supports ilm e gaib given to/ possesed by the chosen creation and possibility of earlier creation similar to Adam a.s.

I seek forgiveness from the Almighty for my mistakes and request my brothers to correct me whenever they find any mistake.

[anajmi]

If the Angels accurately giving out future information of Adam and his progeny and confidentely questioning Allah swt was due to their witnessing of a similar creation earlier, then Ismaili theory of multiple Adam and their cycle could be true and requires a unbiased and deep study without any prejudice.

So who do you think is the latest Adam? Bashar or Abu Bakr of ISIS? Or maybe Obama? How about Bush?


What happens when a taawili bohra gets to jannah? He sees his Dais and his Imams waiting for him and he has to do ziyafat to all of them for the rest of his life which is forever. And he has to do maatam every morning and evening. He is very very disappointed. He complains to Aalh. "O Allah, what happened to the trees and fruits and rivers of milk and honey and castles that you promised in the Quran?"

Allah responds "My beloved bohri, the trees and fruits and rivers of milk and honey and castles are for the literalists of the quran. You are from amongst the taawilers. The fruits and rivers for the taawilers are their imams and dias. Now get back to kissing their thighs"

[Biradar]

لا حول ولاقوة إلا بالله (lā ḥawla wa lā quwwata illā billāh)

Allah save us from this nasty person who makes fun of the Qur'an and the prophets, and makes fun of the deep mysteries of the Qur'an as revealed by the Prophet, Ali, the Imams and the du'at al mutlaqeen. May his blindness, which is the true jahaana, not infect others, and may we continue to bask in the Light of Revelation, which is true janaat.

[anajmi]

You talking about the same Allah whose existence needs to be doubted by educated people like yourself?

[Biradar]

I would like to know from you your opinion, how come the Angels accurately predict about the new creation without ever seeing it, just from hearing Allah swt intentions? Was it because the Angels had ilm e gaib or similar creation had been witnessed by them earlier or is there a third possibility?

This is a very interesting question. Can someone have knowledge of "bil-ghaybi", i.e. about the unseen? In the Qur'an in many places it is indicated that only Allah has this knowledge. For example, Q 6:59 says "With Him are the keys of the Unseen; none knows them but He. He knows what is in land and sea; not a leaf falls, but He knows it. Not a grain in the earth's shadows, not a thing, fresh or withered, but it is in a Book Manifest."

Hence, it would seem that no one knows about the unseen except Allah. However, Allah says that he reveals this knowledge to "... such a Messenger as He is well-pleased with; then He despatches before him and behind him watchers" (Q 72:27).

A very interesting hadith of the Prophet (found in Tirmidhi) is that the Prophet says "Beware of the believer's intuition, for indeed he sees with Allah's Light." This is in reference to the verse Q 15:75. This is usually translated as: "Indeed in that are signs for those who discern." However, the key word really is "lil'mutawassimīna". Very strangely, this verse is repeated almost verbatim in Q 15:77, except that "aayat" is plural in Q 15:75 while it is in singular in Q 15:77, and also the final words are "lil'mu'minīna". Strange, to say the least.

Imam Jaffar al-Sadiq was asked about the "lil'mutawassimīna". He said these were the "knowers of signs" (which is different than the usual translation of "those who discern"). He further said that "They are the Imams, who see with the light of Allah; so be mindful of their "insight" [the Arabic word is firasa] regarding you all!"

Hence, even though only Allah and sometimes his prophets know about the unseen, those who see with the "light of Allah" also can discern hidden things. Do angels qualify as those who see with the light of Allah? It is an interesting question.

[anajmi]

I can safely predict that humans are going to spill blood for the next 100 years. Let us talk in a hundred years and see if I have the light of Allah.

Well 100 years is too long. How about I predict that humans will continue to spill blood for the next 10 years. At the end of 10 years if I am right, will you accept me as your Imam?

[kimanumanu]

anajmi / Biradar bhai, I am enjoying this little debate you are having and can only wish that it evolves into a more substantive discussion rather than degenerating into name-calling and such.

If I have understood correctly the two perspectives and please correct me if I have got this wrong, anajmi bhai does not believe in the relevance of the Imams i.e. for him the Quran and Rasulullah SAW are all that one needs to be a Muslim. Biradar bhai on the other hand believes in the relevance of the Imams and subsequently the Dais but has issues with the current 53rd Dai situation. Is that correct?

If yes, then I find it hard to see how the two of you can agree over anything. However, as a lay person myself, I certainly would struggle if the Quran was the only reference I can use. I do find even when reading translations that some require extra knowledge or understanding and can be interpreted in different ways. In that situation, how would one ensure they are getting the right/correct/intended meaning from it?

[anajmi]

Dear kimanumanu,

Whenever you have run into difficulty understanding some portions of the quran, which Dai/Imam has helped you ? Has Boradar bhai helped you? Did he use taawil to explain it to you?

[kimanumanu]

Ok my question was a bit more generic than that. As an example, if I wanted to learn how to pray what would you refer to? That's what I mean by needing guidance. So to answer my own question, today I refer to the Sahifa for this information. Is that wrong in your view? If yes, what would be your solution?

[anajmi]

So you are saying that just because you have the sahifa you don't need an Imam? What about questions that the sahifa cannot answer. For eg. Do the angels have ghaib nu ilm? Does the sahifa answer that question? Can you send that question to the Imam? How about the Dais? We have a half a dozen of those no?