Where are the old members??

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
chocoman
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Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:37 am

Where are the old members??

#1

Unread post by chocoman » Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:09 am

I was an active participant in this forum. But due to work and social media. I have lost the touch and my morale has seen rockbottom. As we grow old or perhaps wiser, I just want to say that when I was here it felt like home. And I want to personally know all the veterans who I shared my ideas and at times yelled abusive because they had polar opposite views. I want to hug them and look in to their eye and tell them that the world is not a lonely place. You have people like us. Although, you feel disassociated from the very community you were born in, it is time that we make a community where we stay in touch amd talk merry because life will go and evil people will always hold power. Such the world has come to.

So I am thinking to create a telegram group where I want to know veterans like anajmi, al zulfiqar, sbm and other people. It would be hard to filter out the rubbish but in the time of social media, forums are a thing of past as our attention span is reduced to the level of 4 year old kid.

Let me know if you are up for it.

Biradar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#2

Unread post by Biradar » Wed Mar 30, 2022 9:26 pm

You correctly say "our attention span is reduced to the level of 4 year old kid." However, I urge you and others to resist this temptation to reduce everything to a tweet-sized meme, and engage instead in long-form discussions. This will help improve your own understanding of Islam as well as stem some of the insanity we see in the Bohra community as well as the larger world around us. Your suggestion to get on Telegram, in fact, is the opposite of what should be done. We need to think long-form and not become even dumber and reduce our attention to that of a brainless chicken.

This board has many problems. However, I still feel it is very relevant and in fact, despite the dumbing-down from social media, it should be reinvigorated with fresh discussions and debate. Clearly, not many people feel that the old things we argued about 10-15 years ago are relevant any more. The world has moved on, and the cost of leaving the Bohra community is much lower now. In fact, in the West no one cares any more if you leave. In my brief analysis of Western Bohras, it seems that 90% of Bohra kids born in the US leave the fold. Hence, in a generation the Bohra maslaq will be an even more tiny minority within a minority.

It is entertaining to poke fun at the silly Bohras only for so long. After a while it becomes boring and irrelevant. Specially since the schism the Progressive movement seems to have lost steam. SMB's death perhaps allowed the mainstream Bohras to fully disengage from the fringe minority of dissidents, and in any case, the mainstream itself is undergoing a demographic collapse. No one really cares about the nass issue from more than a century ago, about this-and-that commission reports and so-and-so problems from local mullahs. We all have a choice: to vote with our feet. Islam is not a monopoly of a power- and money-hungry family in Mumbai! So let us embrace the larger Muslim community while retaining our roots, but not be too worried that only our way of life is the correct one.

Overall, I also urge that members engage again. Polemics are fine and good, but perhaps it is tiresome to always be "raining fire and brimstone" on mullahs. It is not relevant any more. Let us engage with broader issues and learn how our own unique heritage can be used to navigate the chaos and near-end-times hubris we see in the world around us. When millions are dying of COVID, when the world is on the brink of a global war, the local mullah seems totally irrelevant. However, Islam is a succor as it provides a unique path towards self-enlightenment, at at least whatever enlightenment we weak-willed and sinful humans can achieve in this lifetime. So let us re-engage with vigor and fresh outlook, specially with positive outlook towards Islam and our inherited traditions.

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#3

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:49 am

Biradar,

Long-form reading and discussion is what we need these days, but then all this demands an investment of time and attention. Hopefully, members are willing to put in the time and effort like they used to before. Speaking for myself, as I've mentioned elsewhere, time is a real issue for me but I would still like to contribute as much as I can.

I agree with all that you say but take exception to your claim that Islam "provides a unique path towards self-enlightenment". This maybe true in a deep and esoteric sense, something like what Sufis have devised. Or something that Maula Ali exemplified through his awakened being. From what I have understood, Islam's core objective was not to spur believers into self-enlightenment. Rather its aims were more worldly, to establish a just and equitable society, and to that end for the most part Islam is prescriptive and ritualistic. Of cousre, there's repeated emphasis in the Quran on the principles of rationality and reason, charity and compassion, justice and equity etc. which supersede all its prescriptive and ritualistic aspects, that is if we focus on the essence and not just the literal meaning. Yet all this combined amounts to, in my view, nothing more than a recipe for good living. The Quran offers no pathway to self-enlightenment, if self-enlightenment is understood in its classical, mystical sense of self-realisation, of reaching a higher state of consciousness.

I would like to know your take on this.

PS: Maybe this is not the right topic/thread for this discussion. Please start a new topic if you wish.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#4

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:23 pm

The Quran offers no pathway to self-enlightenment, if self-enlightenment is understood in its classical, mystical sense of self-realisation, of reaching a higher state of consciousness.
Can you enlighten me and help me realize what the heck you mean by that so I can reach a higher state of consciousness? I thought there were still a couple of months before Dr. Strange was coming to the theaters.

Sorry, too lazy to start a new thread.

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#5

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Mar 31, 2022 6:17 pm

A higher state of consciousness is a state when your consciousness transcends your material self and merges with the Creator, God, Allah, Supreme Being whatever you call it. These are just names, what is of essence here is transcendence, when all boundaries between the self and the other are erased. In this state one experiences a sense of absolute unity -- the humanity, the universe is all one. In the Quran it is called Tawheed, and in the Vedas, Advaita (not two). Our kalma starts with the same concept, La ilaha illallah (there's no God but God).

How do I know about this higher state of consciousness? Hundreds of thousands of prophets, mystics, sages, gurus and adepts down the centuries have reported about this. Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed are all said to have achieved this state. One could safely say that the Quran was revealed in that state of consciousness. In layperson's terms you could say that this state of consciousness is a condition in which you are one with God, or when God speaks to you. The Prophet Mohammed's revelation could be interpreted as such. He was speaking to Allah through Jibreel.

How does one achieve this higher state of consciousness? The traditional method is meditation. This is how Buddha achieved it and so did our Prophet. He used meditate in a cave in Mount Hira and that's where he is reported to have received his first revelation. I think it is Tabari who has reported that the Prophet was in a state of "madness" when he received his first wahi. This I believe is the higher state of consciousness when one suddenly realises the Truth and feels completely detached from the world. There are many reports about awakened people behaving in this manner. Mansour al Halaj was in this state when he declared Anal al Haq (I'm the Truth) and was hanged for blasphemy by the people who had no idea what state of consciousness he was in.

Can you reach this higher state of consciousness? From what I have understood, this not privy to a select few. If you're willing to meditate, maybe yes. If you're lucky you may become enlightened tomorrow or not even in hundred years. Mystics have shown us the path. The destination is elusive.

Psychedelic drugs (LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca) are alternate and quicker ways to get a glimpse into that higher state, but its result is temporary. What is achieved organically through meditation (or sudden grace) is long lasting.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#6

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:23 pm

Dear Bro Humsafar,

When you say "The Quran offers no pathway to self-enlightenment" I am assuming you have spent years trying to understand the Quran but were still not enlightened? But you agree that the prophet (ﷺ) did gain this enlightenment and attained a higher state of consciousness? I do not want to prolong this discussion because I know you haven't spent anytime trying to understand the Quran. Consider this ayah

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِ ۗ قُلْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُضِلُّ مَن يَشَاءُ وَيَهْدِي إِلَيْهِ مَنْ أَنَابَ (13:27
The disbelievers say, “If only a sign could be sent down to him from his Lord.”1 Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him—

الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَتَطْمَئِنُّ قُلُوبُهُم بِذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ۗ أَلَا بِذِكْرِ اللَّهِ تَطْمَئِنُّ الْقُلُوبُ (13:28
those who believe and whose hearts find comfort in the remembrance of Allah. Surely in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find comfort.

Ultimately all this higher consciousness, enlightenment nonsense is in simple terms, a way for the heart to find peace and comfort in the chaos surrounding us at all times. And the Quran says those who believe, their hearts find comfort in the remembrance of Allah. Everything else is just complex words to confuse everyone else.

"Psychedelic drugs (LSD, psilocybin, ayahuasca) are alternate and quicker ways to get a glimpse into that higher state". Either you have never tried drugs or you are a drug addict.

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#7

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:34 pm

I agree there are several ayats inviting believer towards what we can call as "God-consciosness". But I'm making two points here: 1) there is no systematic path offered towards enlightenment. 2) The main thrust of the Quran/Islam is to encourage believers to live a good, virtuous life. Enlightenment (understood as the transformation of consciousness) is not the goal. At least this what I have understood from my readings,

Yes, finding peace and comfort in the heart is a good thing and worth striving for but it is not the same thing as being enlightened. (Please do not confuse the ordinary meaning of "enlightened" with what can be dubbed as is its "spiritual" meaning.)
Either you have never tried drugs or you are a drug addict.
Take your pick :-)

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#8

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 01, 2022 1:40 pm

There is a big difference between what you refer to as "God-consciousness" and what I have posted as tatmainnul Quloob. God-consciousness in the Quran is referred to as Taqwa. Fasting for example is a prescription towards gaining taqwa. Remembrance of Allah is a prescription for the latter. The enlightenment you refer to, that you consider to be temporarily attainable through drug use, is not something that you will find in the Quran and for good reasons.

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#9

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Apr 01, 2022 2:00 pm

I was not referring to "God-consciousness" in the Quranic sense of Taqwa. What is generally meant by the term is the awareness of divine presence inside you--something that meditators strive for. Taqwa is more to do with obeying Allah and his commands or "fear of Allah". This is the exact opposite of enlightenment.
But in any case, we can agree to disagree. And you can keep taunting me with the "drug use" punchline. :)

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#10

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:01 pm

fear of Allah, and obeying Allah are not the true meanings encapsulated in the word Taqwa. The root for taqwa refers to the meaning of creating a barrier or a veil. A veil between that which pleases Allah and that which does not please him. Allah asks the believers to follow Allah and his prophet (ﷺ). So a veil between that which in turn is prescribed by his prophet (ﷺ) and that which is not.

If you decide to do something, anything, and think about whether it will please Allah or not before you do it, that is taqwa. You do this either because you "fear Allah' or because you think about pleasing Allah with every action of yours. It simply depends upon whether you just want to ensure that you do not go to hell or whether you are thinking about all the fun that you will have in heaven. Personally, I try to think about what kind of drugs will be halal and available in jannah (:-)). So in this life, I stay away from them!!

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#11

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:56 pm

Sure, that is a more nuanced meaning of Taqwa, but this not what I meant by God-consciousness.
Some people don't want to take chances with the afterlife, so take drugs in this life. :wink:

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#12

Unread post by anajmi » Fri Apr 01, 2022 5:06 pm

As Allah commands his prophet (ﷺ) to say in the Quran

Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him—

Biradar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#13

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:03 pm

Humsafar wrote: Thu Mar 31, 2022 11:49 am Biradar,

I agree with all that you say but take exception to your claim that Islam "provides a unique path towards self-enlightenment". This maybe true in a deep and esoteric sense, something like what Sufis have devised. Or something that Maula Ali exemplified through his awakened being. From what I have understood, Islam's core objective was not to spur believers into self-enlightenment. Rather its aims were more worldly, to establish a just and equitable society, and to that end for the most part Islam is prescriptive and ritualistic. Of cousre, there's repeated emphasis in the Quran on the principles of rationality and reason, charity and compassion, justice and equity etc. which supersede all its prescriptive and ritualistic aspects, that is if we focus on the essence and not just the literal meaning.
The Quran has many facets, and it is true that one of the key goals is to establish a just and equitable society. Hence the repeated emphasis on charity, taking care of the widows and the orphans etc. However, clearly the Quran has a mystical dimension to it. In fact, consider the revelation of the Quran itself. That is probably the most important mystical event in all of Islam! The descent of the Quranic verses into the heart of the Prophet via the means of Gibraeel is a form of enlightenment, though of course not for ordinary people like us. We only partake in it indirectly, via linguistic means. The revelation to the Prophet was not of this sort and he was commanded to "recite" it in Arabic to make people understand what he was receiving directly.

Perhaps my point was that building from the Quranic injunction to self-reflect one could obtain a certain form of spiritual station that one would call "enlightened". Though, of course, this word is loaded with per-conceived meanings from other traditions that may not be whole compatible with Islam. The Prophet's miraaj serves as the motif of Islamic "enlightenment", in the sense that one seeks closeness with Allah. Now, I am not sure if the Quranic description of the Prophet's miraaj means others can also attain to part of what the Prophet attained. However, in most Sufi seeking this celestial journey of the Prophet is taken as a motif for a seeker to attain to a higher spiritual state, or at least try.

I am not sure about drugs! I think it is a bad idea and I would not be sure if it is Satan or Allah one "sees" in a drug-induced state. Probably the former! However, it is somewhat surprising that in some controlled settings the consumption of plant-based hallucinogenics is not always considered bad from the Islamic perspective. In fact, it seems that recently a prominent Shi'a scholar from the hawza system in Iran gave a "fatwa" that such drug use is permissible in some situations. However, I think it is a bad idea and best to stick to long nightly vigils and hope for the best!

Coincidentally, this year STF is starting a series of lectures on the Quran, called the "Anwaar-al-Quran" series. I hope to summarize some of this in another post.

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#14

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Apr 04, 2022 3:58 pm

Biradar,
You are right, as I mentioned in response to anajmi, the origin of Islam is rooted in the Prophet's enlightenment. The Miraj was a part of the same mystical experience (the Prophet did not physically travel to the heavens as is commonly understood). True, we ordinary mortals can only understand other people's enlightenment indirectly through their words and description, although there is no language that can truly describe such experience. Those who attain enlightenment interpret their experience in their own light and in accordance to the culture, values, milieu, era etc they live in. For the Prophet it took the shape of the Quran, for Jesus it was the message of love and the kingdom of God, for the Buddha the end of desire and suffering. Of the three, I think the Buddha provides a clear path to moksha (enlightenment). Of course, there are hundreds of other sages who do the same. Not every awakened sage starts a religion (and thank God for that).

Regarding drugs, I only mentioned it as an aside. I wasn't exactly recommending it as anajmi naughtily took it to mean. These are powerful drugs and no one can predict what one would "see". I wouldn't say they are bad if taken under controlled, supervised conditions. They are been increasingly used as a treatment for depression and other mental illnesses. And people who have taken it just for experience have positive things to say. If anyone is interested in this subject, do read Michael Pollan's "How to Change Your Mind".

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#15

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 04, 2022 4:36 pm

"(the Prophet did not physically travel to the heavens as is commonly understood)."

And who told you that? Let me guess, he took some Arabian Drug and that is how he went to the 7th heaven? There are millions of people on drugs that take them to the 7th heaven and out of those how many have produced a divine revelation that results in the changing of billions of lives? It is not because they do not want to. It is because they cannot (and thank God for that). I remember you talking about being able to come up with a 'Furan" if given 23 years. That was probably 15 years ago. How many ayahs have you written? Or do you need to increase your dosage?

This is the first Ayah of Surah Al-Isra
Glory be to the One Who took His servant ˹Muḥammad˺ by night from the Sacred Mosque to the Farthest Mosque whose surroundings We have blessed, so that We may show him some of Our signs. Indeed, He alone is the All-Hearing, All-Seeing.

It is amazing how people who came centuries after the time of the prophet (ﷺ) suddenly know better than the prophet (ﷺ) himself.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#16

Unread post by anajmi » Mon Apr 04, 2022 5:08 pm

I'm going to write a book called the Furan. In it I'll mention that it is the word of God, and that it contains final and absolute truths.

I'll make sure that no one ever changes a word of it (which by the way is not true about the Quran: verses have known to be lost, forgotten, abrogated etc.).

I'll convert people to my new religion first by moral persuasion and then by force and whatever it takes.

In a thousand years my religion will grow into a billion strong - with believers swearing by the Furan which remains original and unchanged.

Then, no doubt, there will be those perverse doubters who will question the Furan and all that it contains. They will ask believers,

"What justifies your belief that Furan is God's word?"

Any my believers will proudly respond:

"The Furan!! The Furan says that it is god's word."
Just checked. It was 17 years ago!!

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#17

Unread post by Humsafar » Mon Apr 04, 2022 7:36 pm

Oh anajmi brother, you do get excited. Ok let's put it this way, it is my understanding that the Prophet did not physically travel to the heavens. I think he had visions like many people do when they reach that level of consciousness. But of course, you can believe what you want to.

Thanks for digging that piece up, had forgotten about it.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#18

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 am

"that level of consciousness."

One doesn't reach "that level of consciousness" just because. He struggled and was divinely inspired. Quran says do not be burdened down by your children and your wealth in your worship of Allah. Buddha followed in those footsteps, left his family and his wealth and achieved "that level of consciousness".

Humsafar
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Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#19

Unread post by Humsafar » Tue Apr 05, 2022 3:56 pm

anajmi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 10:18 am "that level of consciousness."

One doesn't reach "that level of consciousness" just because. He struggled and was divinely inspired. Quran says do not be burdened down by your children and your wealth in your worship of Allah. Buddha followed in those footsteps, left his family and his wealth and achieved "that level of consciousness".
Absolutely. It was never my contention that this thing was easy, but it certainly is unpredictable. In fact, people spend lifetime meditating and have nothing to show for it. And there are a few others who are known to have attained that level without much effort, touched as they may have been by the grace of God. God indeed works is mysterious ways. "Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him..." It would seem there's no human free will in Allah's kingdom, and certainly one can't will oneself into enlightenment.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#20

Unread post by anajmi » Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:54 pm

"Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him..."
Looks like you fail to understand this ayah. There is absolutely free will. Read the ayah again and see if you can spot it.

Let me clarify "Allah leaves to stray whoever HE wills". So if you are the one who is straying, then Allah may choose to leave you to stray. It was your free will to go astray. Allah just let you follow your path.

And then look at the second part of the ayah. "and guides to Himself WHOEVER TURNS TO HIM". So Allah will guide you, if you turn to him. Again free will. You are choosing to go astray and you are choosing to turn to him. Either Allah is leaving you to go astray or he is guiding you because you have turned to him.

Which one are you?

Besides, why are you insisting on reaching "that level of consciousness"? Those who got there have given us the formula so we don't have to re-invent it. The prophet (ﷺ) struggled for 23 years and then gave us the path. Follow it. Do not try to create your own path. That is where you are going astray.

SBM
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Re: Where are the old members??

#21

Unread post by SBM » Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:25 am

chocoman wrote: Tue Mar 29, 2022 11:09 am I was an active participant in this forum. But due to work and social media. I have lost the touch and my morale has seen rockbottom. As we grow old or perhaps wiser, I just want to say that when I was here it felt like home. And I want to personally know all the veterans who I shared my ideas and at times yelled abusive because they had polar opposite views. I want to hug them and look in to their eye and tell them that the world is not a lonely place. You have people like us. Although, you feel disassociated from the very community you were born in, it is time that we make a community where we stay in touch amd talk merry because life will go and evil people will always hold power. Such the world has come to.

So I am thinking to create a telegram group where I want to know veterans like anajmi, al zulfiqar, sbm and other people. It would be hard to filter out the rubbish but in the time of social media, forums are a thing of past as our attention span is reduced to the level of 4 year old kid.

Let me know if you are up for it.
Salaam and Ramadan Mubarak
Most of the people you mentioned know each other and who they are. Most of us are actively involved in educating Non Muslims in West and above the CULT style following of Bohra community. to my knowledge all of us still savor the the old Bohra cultural, philanthropic aspect which was norm of this community before 51 when the Mafia took over and made this once prosperous, highly educated and most philanthropic community into a SLAVE and that is when many of those old timer left the fold

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#22

Unread post by Humsafar » Wed Apr 06, 2022 11:16 am

anajmi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:54 pm Let me clarify "Allah leaves to stray whoever HE wills". So if you are the one who is straying, then Allah may choose to leave you to stray. It was your free will to go astray. Allah just let you follow your path.
I've read it many times, but the first part of the ayat underlines Allah's will ("whoever He wills"). Maybe it's the translation, in the original Arabic it might be clearer.
anajmi wrote: Tue Apr 05, 2022 7:54 pm Besides, why are you insisting on reaching "that level of consciousness"? Those who got there have given us the formula so we don't have to re-invent it. The prophet (ﷺ) struggled for 23 years and then gave us the path. Follow it. Do not try to create your own path. That is where you are going astray.
Everybody should insist on their own enlightenment--because in my view this is the primary goal of human life. Second-hand enlightenment is like enjoying a stranger's happiness. It's a good human thing to do, but you will never know how that happiness feels.

Looks like we've come a full circle regarding the "path". This whole discussion started because I'm asserting that the Prophet or the Quran do not provide the path to enlightenment. The Quranic project is to guide the believer to live a good and virtuous life with Taqwa. That is all. Yes, other mystics have given a "formula", and anyone who is drawn to this sort of thing has to follow that formula and attain their personal enlightenment. It should not be seen as "reinventing the wheel". Every time a child is born, we're reinventing the wheel. It is a process - from being to becoming. Enlightenment works the same way.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#23

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 06, 2022 3:19 pm

I've read it many times, but the first part of the ayat underlines Allah's will ("whoever He wills"). Maybe it's the translation, in the original Arabic it might be clearer.
That is a scary ayah. Can you imagine if Allah has willed to let you go astray because you have chosen not to turn to him? Damn, the burning will be unbearable.
Every time a child is born, we're reinventing the wheel. It is a process - from being to becoming.
A misplaced analogy. It’s not like Man forgets where to put it after each child is born! And the hospitals today are much better than during the times of Buddha. C-Section didn't exist back then. Kids have a much lower mortality rate now. People now have a much better idea of how to have a safe and healthy pregnancy.
Everybody should insist on their own enlightenment--because in my view this is the primary goal of human life. Second-hand enlightenment is like enjoying a stranger's happiness. It's a good human thing to do, but you will never know how that happiness feels.
Correct, everybody should insist on their own enlightenment. But now you want me to give up the way I achieved enlightenment to follow your way to achieve enlightenment? (Drugs for example). Your enlightenment is better than my enlightenment?

Why do you think people who believe in Allah and his prophet (ﷺ) are not enlightened? I believe they are the only enlightened ones. The rest are lost (astray).
The Quranic project is to guide the believer to live a good and virtuous life with Taqwa. That is all.
And why do you think that is not the path to enlightenment? Again you are trying to shove your enlightenment down my throat. I am perfectly happy with having the goal to achieve Taqwa. That is my path to enlightenment.

When you say the Quran does not provide the path to enlightenment, then you obviously assume that you know the path to enlightenment. Maybe you should enlighten us about it. Put it in the Furan, perhaps?
Last edited by anajmi on Wed Apr 06, 2022 4:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#24

Unread post by anajmi » Wed Apr 06, 2022 8:15 pm

La ilaha illallah (there's no God but God).
Incorrect translation. The correct translation is - There is no God but Allah.

Humsafar
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Re: Where are the old members??

#25

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Apr 07, 2022 11:28 am

"Indeed, Allah leaves to stray whoever He wills, and guides to Himself whoever turns to Him..."
I don't think there's any ambiguity in this translation. I understand it thus: It is Allah's decision to allow certain people to go astray, and by implication, it is Allah's decision to allow certain people to be drawn to Him. The agency is with Allah.

About Enlightenment, we're going in circles. Please read my post #5 in this thread in which I've explained what enlightenment is. In short it means a realisation of your true self, when your consciousness merges with universal consciousness. In ordinary terms it could be described as a state when you are one with God -- the absolute unity you and God and the universe. All is One. The Quranic doctrine to Tawhid is rooted in this concept. This is something one cannot understand intellectually. This state has to be experienced, only then its Truth will dawn on you.

No, you're not enlightened. An enlightened person is supposed to be infused/suffused with "God" and has no need for a prophet or religion or scripture or rituals.
Incorrect translation. The correct translation is - There is no God but Allah.
This is proof that you're not enlightened. You are still struggling with names and labels.

anajmi
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Re: Where are the old members??

#26

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:30 pm

I don't think there's any ambiguity in this translation. I understand it thus: It is Allah's decision to allow certain people to go astray, and by implication, it is Allah's decision to allow certain people to be drawn to Him. The agency is with Allah.
That is fine. Let us stick with your translation. I guess he has chosen me to be drawn to him and not you. Not yet at least.
In short it means a realisation of your true self, when your consciousness merges with universal consciousness.
Yep now that makes a lot more sense then before.
In ordinary terms it could be described as a state when you are one with God -- the absolute unity you and God and the universe. All is One.
Yep. That makes so much more sense now. One with God. One with the Universe. The One. Neo!!
This is something one cannot understand intellectually.
Nope. you are right about that.
No, you're not enlightened. An enlightened person is supposed to be infused/suffused with "God" and has no need for a prophet or religion or scripture or rituals.
You are confusing enlightenment with "blown a gasket", "blown a lid", "gone bonkers", "gone loony" etc.
Incorrect translation. The correct translation is - There is no God but Allah.
This is proof that you're not enlightened. You are still struggling with names and labels.
Correct. Enlightenment and "Gone Bonkers" are just labels, easily replaced with one another. They are both just One. Neo.

Thanks. I am now enlightened. Time to move on.

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#27

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Apr 07, 2022 1:50 pm

You are confusing enlightenment with "blown a gasket", "blown a lid", "gone bonkers", "gone loony" etc.
You hit the nail on the head. I'm not confusing, this is exactly it. The Prophet had "blown a gasket", "blown a lid", "gone bonkers", "gone loony" etc. because when one is enlightened one sees the world in a radically different light. Conventions and traditions don't matter. They bring their message to the world but people shun them as mad and persecute them, e.g. Mansour Al Halajj, Jesus Christ. People opposed the Prophet's message too and he was treated as someone who had "gone loony". The resistance he faced is well documented and I'm sure you know all about that.

anajmi
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#28

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 07, 2022 2:18 pm

People opposed the Prophet's message too
Between the two of us, I am not the one who is opposed to the prophet (ﷺ)'s message. I believe in it whole heartedly. So that settles it then. I am enlightened.

And you in fact said this about the message of the prophet (ﷺ)
I'm going to write a book called the Furan. In it I'll mention that it is the word of God, and that it contains final and absolute truths.

I'll make sure that no one ever changes a word of it (which by the way is not true about the Quran: verses have known to be lost, forgotten, abrogated etc.).

I'll convert people to my new religion first by moral persuasion and then by force and whatever it takes.

In a thousand years my religion will grow into a billion strong - with believers swearing by the Furan which remains original and unchanged.

Then, no doubt, there will be those perverse doubters who will question the Furan and all that it contains. They will ask believers,

"What justifies your belief that Furan is God's word?"

Any my believers will proudly respond:

"The Furan!! The Furan says that it is god's word."

Humsafar
Posts: 2608
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#29

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu Apr 07, 2022 3:50 pm

I'm not opposed to the Prophet's message, I'm just stating that it is not sufficient for self-enlightenment. I only brought in the "message" bit as an aside, the point I was making is that enlightened people are considered mad and whatever they say is dubbed as a blabbering of a mad man. The emphasis was not on what message they give, but how they are treated.

The passage you quote was made in a different context. It was an attempt to highlight a logical fallacy inherent in the Quran (which btw is true of all books/religions that claim divinity as their source): that it is self referential, that its logic is circular. It goes something like this: The Quran is the word of Allah. Who says so? The Quran. Why should one believe what the Quran says? Because it is Allah's word. Who says it is Allah's word? The Quran. And on and on.

anajmi
Posts: 13506
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Where are the old members??

#30

Unread post by anajmi » Thu Apr 07, 2022 4:08 pm

You forgot about the enlightened prophet (ﷺ) who actually brought forth the message in the form of the Quran.

Anyway, keep searching for your enlightenment, one hit at a time. :wink: