Honest question

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
Fatema Yamani
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Honest question

#1

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:35 am

Salaam,

This is an honest question addressed to both followers of Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin and Taher Khuzaima Qutbuddin. The purpose here is not to ridicule anyone’s belief system, but rather to engage in a rational conversation about an important topic: the concept of ilhaam (divine inspiration) from the Imam of the Time, Imam Al-Tayyaib (A.S.).

The question is: Do you truly believe that your respective leaders receive ilhaam from the Imam? Furthermore, do you think they have any direct connection or contact with the Imam of the Time?

For centuries, followers of the Dawoodi Bohra faith have believed in the presence of a spiritual link between the Dai (the leader) and the Imam, particularly when the Imam is in Ghaibat (occultation). The Dai is seen as the representative of the Imam, guiding the community in his absence. The belief that the Dai might receive ilhaam from the Imam is rooted in this connection. However, it is a rational and fair question to ask: What is the nature of this connection? Can it be proven or is it a matter of faith alone?

A more challenging question is: Are there any instances where your leader has done something that seemed humanly impossible and could only be explained by ilhaam? If so, can you provide specific examples? This is not to cast doubt, but to seek clarity in understanding what sets these actions apart from the usual human capability.

In religion, especially in systems where a spiritual leader holds immense power, it's common for followers to believe in supernatural or divine influences guiding their leader. But rational thinking also plays a role in faith. Shouldn’t there be some tangible signs, some examples of what could only be achieved through divine intervention or ilhaam?

Understanding these elements could provide a balanced view of faith and reason. It’s important to respect the belief systems of others while also acknowledging that many people need logical evidence or reasoning to understand profound religious concepts.

This discussion aims to open a space for understanding, not conflict, and for the followers of both leaders to introspect about their beliefs and the rationale behind them.

Let’s continue this dialogue in good faith and mutual respect.

TalibBhai
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: Honest question

#2

Unread post by TalibBhai » Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:29 am

સલામ,

આ પ્રશ્ન સચ્ચાઈપૂર્વક બંને અનુયાયીઓ, સૈયદના મુફદ્દલ સૈફુદ્દીન અને તાહેર ખુઝૈમા કુત્બુદ્દીનના, માટે છે. આનો ઉદ્દેશ્ય કોઈની માન્યતાઓને ઉપહાસ કરવાનો નથી, પરંતુ ઈમામ અલ-તૈય્યબ (અ.સ.) ના ઇમામ સમયના ઇલહામ (દિવ્ય પ્રેરણા)ના સiddiાંત વિષે તર્કસંગત ચર્ચા કરવા માટે છે.

પ્રશ્ન એ છે: શું તમે ખરેખર માનો છો કે તમારાં નેતાઓને ઇમામ પાસેથી ઇલહામ પ્રાપ્ત થાય છે? વધુમાં, શું તમે માનો છો કે તેમનો ઇમામ સમય સાથે સીધો કનેક્શન અથવા સંપર્ક છે?

સદીઓથી, દાઉદી બોહરા મજહબના અનુયાયીઓ માનતા આવ્યા છે કે દાઈ (મુખિયા) અને ઇમામ વચ્ચે એક આધ્યાત્મિક કનેક્શન છે, ખાસ કરીને જ્યારે ઇમામ ગૈબત (લુપ્ત)માં હોય છે. દાઈને ઇમામના પ્રતિનિધિ તરીકે જોવામાં આવે છે, જેની ગેરહાજરીમાં સમુદાયને માર્ગદર્શન આપે છે. દાઈને ઇમામ પાસેથી ઇલહામ મળવાની ધારણા આ કનેક્શન પર આધારિત છે. પરંતુ આ તર્કસંગત અને યોગ્ય પ્રશ્ન છે: આ કનેક્શનનું સ્વરૂપ શું છે? શું તેને સાબિત કરી શકાય છે કે આ માત્ર શ્રદ્ધાનો વિષય છે?

એક વધુ પડકારજનક પ્રશ્ન છે: શું કોઈ એવા ઉદાહરણો છે જ્યાં તમારાં નેતાઓએ એવું કંઈક કર્યું છે જે માનવસામાન્ય રીતે અસંભવ લાગે છે અને તે માત્ર ઇલહામ દ્વારા સમજી શકાય તેવું છે? જો હોય, તો કૃપા કરીને ચોક્કસ ઉદાહરણો આપી શકો? આ શંકા ઊભી કરવા માટે નથી, પરંતુ સમજી શકાય તે રીતે શું આ ક્રિયાઓ માનવ ક્ષમતાની મર્યાદા બહાર છે તે જાણવા માટે છે.

ધર્મમાં, ખાસ કરીને ત્યાં જ્યાં કોઈ આધ્યાત્મિક નેતાની શક્તિ વિશાળ હોય, અનુયાયીઓ માટે એવું માનવું સામાન્ય છે કે તેમના નેતાઓને દીવી પ્રેરણા અથવા સુપરનેચરલ શક્તિઓનું માર્ગદર્શન મળે છે. પરંતુ ધાર્મિક શ્રદ્ધામાં તર્કશક્તિનો પણ ભાગ છે. શું તેવું ના હોવું જોઈએ કે આ પ્રકારની દિવ્ય હસ્તકૃતિઓનો કોઈ સ્પષ્ટ પુરાવો મળે? તેવા ઉદાહરણો, જે ફક્ત દિવ્ય દખલ અથવા ઇલહામથી જ શક્ય હોય?

આ તત્વોને સમજવા માટે શ્રદ્ધા અને તર્કનો સંતુલિત દ્રષ્ટિકોણ આપવો શક્ય છે. આ સાથે, તે મહત્વપૂર્ણ છે કે જ્યારે અન્ય લોકોના માન્યતાના પ્રત્યે માન આપવી જોઈએ, ત્યારે તે પણ સ્વીકારવું જોઈએ કે ઘણા લોકો ધર્મના ઊંડા સiddiાંતોને સમજવા માટે તર્કસંગત પુરાવા અથવા કારણો માંગે છે.

આ ચર્ચાનો ઉદ્દેશ્ય પરસ્પર સમજૂતી માટે જગ્યા આપવાનો છે, વિવાદ માટે નહીં, અને બંને નેતાઓના અનુયાયીઓને તેમના વિશ્વાસ અને તેની પાછળના તર્ક વિશે ચિંતન કરવાનો છે.

આ ચર્ચાને સારી શ્રદ્ધા અને પરસ્પર આદર સાથે આગળ વધારીએ.

TalibBhai
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: Honest question

#3

Unread post by TalibBhai » Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:30 am

सलाम,

यह एक ईमानदार सवाल है, जो सैयदना मुफद्दल सैफुद्दीन और ताहेर खुज़ैमा क़ुतुबुद्दीन के अनुयायियों दोनों को संबोधित किया गया है। इसका उद्देश्य किसी के विश्वास प्रणाली का मज़ाक उड़ाना नहीं है, बल्कि इमाम अल-तैय्यब (अ.स.) से इमाम के ज़माने के इल्हाम (दिव्य प्रेरणा) की अवधारणा पर एक तार्किक बातचीत में शामिल होना है।

सवाल यह है: क्या आप वास्तव में मानते हैं कि आपके संबंधित नेता इमाम से इल्हाम प्राप्त करते हैं? इसके अलावा, क्या आप मानते हैं कि उनका इमाम-ए-ज़मान से कोई सीधा संपर्क या कनेक्शन है?

सदियों से, दाऊदी बोहरा समुदाय के अनुयायी मानते आए हैं कि दाई (नेता) और इमाम के बीच एक आध्यात्मिक संबंध होता है, खासकर जब इमाम ग़ैबत (अदृश्यता) में होते हैं। दाई को इमाम के प्रतिनिधि के रूप में देखा जाता है, जो उनकी अनुपस्थिति में समुदाय का मार्गदर्शन करते हैं। यह विश्वास कि दाई को इमाम से इल्हाम प्राप्त हो सकता है, इस संबंध पर आधारित है। हालांकि, यह एक तार्किक और उचित सवाल है: इस संबंध का स्वभाव क्या है? क्या इसे साबित किया जा सकता है, या यह केवल आस्था का मामला है?

एक और चुनौतीपूर्ण सवाल यह है: क्या आपके नेता ने कभी ऐसा कुछ किया है जो मानवीय रूप से असंभव प्रतीत होता है और केवल इल्हाम द्वारा समझाया जा सकता है? अगर हां, तो क्या आप विशिष्ट उदाहरण दे सकते हैं? यह संदेह उत्पन्न करने के लिए नहीं है, बल्कि यह समझने के लिए है कि इन कार्यों को मानवीय क्षमता से परे क्या बनाता है।

धर्म में, खासकर जहां एक आध्यात्मिक नेता के पास अत्यधिक शक्ति होती है, अनुयायियों के लिए यह सामान्य है कि वे मानते हैं कि उनके नेता को दिव्य या अलौकिक मार्गदर्शन प्राप्त होता है। लेकिन आस्था में तर्क भी एक भूमिका निभाता है। क्या कुछ ठोस संकेत, कुछ ऐसे उदाहरण नहीं होने चाहिए, जिन्हें केवल दिव्य हस्तक्षेप या इल्हाम से ही प्राप्त किया जा सके?

इन तत्वों को समझने से विश्वास और तर्क का एक संतुलित दृष्टिकोण प्राप्त हो सकता है। दूसरों की विश्वास प्रणालियों का सम्मान करते हुए यह स्वीकार करना भी महत्वपूर्ण है कि कई लोग गहन धार्मिक अवधारणाओं को समझने के लिए तार्किक प्रमाण या कारण की आवश्यकता महसूस करते हैं।

यह चर्चा समझदारी के लिए एक स्थान खोलने का प्रयास करती है, न कि टकराव के लिए, और दोनों नेताओं के अनुयायियों से उनके विश्वास और इसके पीछे की तर्कशीलता पर विचार करने का आग्रह करती है।

आइए इस संवाद को अच्छे इरादे और परस्पर सम्मान के साथ जारी रखें।

TalibBhai
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: Honest question

#4

Unread post by TalibBhai » Wed Sep 25, 2024 11:30 am

Translated it for you to make it easy to understand for others

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Honest question

#5

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Sat Sep 28, 2024 7:29 am

Is he tired or some thing else?
Attachments
Screenshot_20240928_165722.jpg
Screenshot_20240928_165722.jpg (727.48 KiB) Viewed 1616 times

TalibBhai
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: Honest question

#6

Unread post by TalibBhai » Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:01 am

I dont think pea brain abdes from both side even understood the question or may be even if they understood they have nothing to say.

zinger
Posts: 2222
Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:40 am

Re: Honest question

#7

Unread post by zinger » Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:47 am

Fatema Yamani wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2024 10:35 am Salaam,

This is an honest question addressed to both followers of Syedna Mufaddal Saifuddin and Taher Khuzaima Qutbuddin. The purpose here is not to ridicule anyone’s belief system, but rather to engage in a rational conversation about an important topic: the concept of ilhaam (divine inspiration) from the Imam of the Time, Imam Al-Tayyaib (A.S.).

The question is: Do you truly believe that your respective leaders receive ilhaam from the Imam? Furthermore, do you think they have any direct connection or contact with the Imam of the Time?

For centuries, followers of the Dawoodi Bohra faith have believed in the presence of a spiritual link between the Dai (the leader) and the Imam, particularly when the Imam is in Ghaibat (occultation). The Dai is seen as the representative of the Imam, guiding the community in his absence. The belief that the Dai might receive ilhaam from the Imam is rooted in this connection. However, it is a rational and fair question to ask: What is the nature of this connection? Can it be proven or is it a matter of faith alone?

A more challenging question is: Are there any instances where your leader has done something that seemed humanly impossible and could only be explained by ilhaam? If so, can you provide specific examples? This is not to cast doubt, but to seek clarity in understanding what sets these actions apart from the usual human capability.

In religion, especially in systems where a spiritual leader holds immense power, it's common for followers to believe in supernatural or divine influences guiding their leader. But rational thinking also plays a role in faith. Shouldn’t there be some tangible signs, some examples of what could only be achieved through divine intervention or ilhaam?

Understanding these elements could provide a balanced view of faith and reason. It’s important to respect the belief systems of others while also acknowledging that many people need logical evidence or reasoning to understand profound religious concepts.

This discussion aims to open a space for understanding, not conflict, and for the followers of both leaders to introspect about their beliefs and the rationale behind them.

Let’s continue this dialogue in good faith and mutual respect.
Firstly, its Syedna Taher Fakhruddin, not Taher Khuzaima Qutbuddin

Secondly, and i speak only for myself, NO.

i do not believe that any of the present day Syednas, neither on our side, or Sulemani or Alavi or Mehdi Baug ones have any connection or contact or receive Ilm from Imam Us Zaman.

My heart tells me to believe in the concept of Imam Us Zaman but my head tells me otherwise.

Coming to the topic of Divine Messages, i think what sets Syedna Taher Fakhruddin apart is that while he too claims Divine Intervention (which i know is gas), atleast whatever he does is for the upliftment of the community. He does ask women to give up meaninful education or career opportunities or to sit in one place and sew clothes and make rotis. he urges women to get a formal education and take the community ahead.
he does not demand money at every opportunity. i have personally done salam empty handed to him on Lai Latul Qadr and he has never flinched (and mind you, i am not even a regular there)
he has displayed a whole lot more maturity, knowledge and superior intellect compared to the alternative.

so to answer, no, i do not believe any of the present day Syedna's are divinely guided but atleast Syedne Taher Fakhruddin uses his God-given mind

TalibBhai
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:16 am

Re: Honest question

#8

Unread post by TalibBhai » Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:30 am

Great that you accept this, so basically you are not Ismaili now but some thing new may be "Taheri" or some thing.

I appreciate your stand and accept your leader has no connection with Imam.

yes he can be a leader for you that's fine, good or bad that's subjective.

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 267
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Honest question

#9

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:54 am

True MS and TS are liars when they talk about Ilhaam.

Well said a Gas