Regarding Progressive bohras faith in Dawat

[Gulf]

Why Progressive Dont have their DAIz-ZAMAN????

Progressive Bohras, as per your plaint (you) belong Fatimid dawat and (you) having faith in daawat tradition. regardless your disput with main stream (OUR unbroken) like before JAFARI, SULAYMANI, ALAVI and others (if any) had and they all have their own daiz zaman...

then why you dont have????
This is million dollars quaestion.

[East Africawalla]

Gulf, I think most of the progressives have made it clear that they believe in the DAI but in a religious role more then a political role therefore no need for them to have their own Dai

[East Africawalla]

Gulf, I think most of the progressives have made it clear that they believe in the DAI but in a religious role more then a political role therefore no need for them to have their own Dai

[SBM]

East Africawalla
Agreed

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. africawalla,

atleast u seem to have understood the real mission of the reformists, while gulf's ignorance is increasing by the day. either he is retarded or he acts stupid just to stir up deliberate mischief.

the reformists dont need to have their own dai, they want the present dai and his successors to confirm with the REAL tenets of our bohra faith, according to the founding principles as laid out in daim-ul-islam.

kai samajh ma aayu, gulf?

[S. Insaf]

DAWAT is mission preaching, convincing and preparing people to accept "Fatemi Dawat". This is been forgotten today. On the contrary those who believe in Fatemi Dawat and differ from the present occupant of the high office of Dai (supposed to be a missionary) are time and again are blatantly told to leave the faith and appoint their own Dai or join some other sect. This is a great disservice to the mission of Dawat.

[East Africawalla]

We are all from the same fold for years, nobody should have a right to decide who is 'in' and who should be 'out'.

[Al Zulfiqar]

bro. african,

i wish someone could convey that message to the syedna and his establishment.....

it should be the work of a missionary to bring people into the faith, not reject them and exclude them with scorn and hatred, just because they have questions and genuine concerns about the way their community's affairs are run by those who claim to be their spiritual leaders.

[humble_servant_us]

Gulf
Splitting a sect and forming a new one is not the solution. Is this what Allah(swt) likes. N0, Islam always preaches in unity of sects, we may have different ideologies but we have many things in common basically the belief in Tawheed.

Same thing applies to the Fatemi Dawat. The followers of Fatemi Dawat do not want to split but to reform the problems within it. I am sure you too are aware of the corruption in the bohra society and no one can deny it, isn't it your duty too to stand against this corruption.

A great problem is that we Bohras think Dai is infallible, and so everything happening (right or wrong) in the society gets justified. This notion of infallibility of Dai doesn;t exist in the Fatemi dawat (refer some of our Bohra literature). This principle has been forced on us. This principle has made us personality centric and our religion revolves round a single person. The day we realise this mistake we will be more Islam centric and our focus would be revolving around Allah(swt).

I am not a progressive Bohra and at many places i do not support their views also but what i appreciate about the group is to stand up against the wrongs in the community.

[profrog]

even if your argument is true that our moula is not as you put it ( naauzubillah) then have a dai that is appoint some one else who will according to you again have all the principles as you want him to have, even insaap will agree that is not agaisnt the mission of dawat

[Gulf]

humble sus,

so in other word u want to say huge majority
of bohras either fool or timid? why they (huge majority) execute all the farmane aali without making noise?

against the curruption progs have accept challange and how come they getting NO support??

where in the world has NO CURRUPTION?

[humble_servant_us]

Gulf
The argument that if a huge majority is executing farmane aali without making any noise than it is correct is NOT a good argument because the majority does not decide right or wrong.

Today in the world Christians out number all the religions, this does not mean they are right.

I am not saying Bohras are fools or timid, but what i am saying is that we do not know our religion well. We only know what is told to us by Sayedna and his representatives. We accept anything and everything from them without any questions.

How many times have we questioned them about the sources of their bayans. How many times have we asked them to prove something from Quran. Have we ever read our own books of literature which imams(as) have written.

Why prog are not getting support to fight corruption is a different topic but it doesn't mean corruption doesn;t exist.

Also yes corruption exist everywhere but when it is mixed with religion it becomes a disaster. A classical example is the corruption of Bible and old testaments by the people.

Similar thing in happening in the bohra society, there is corruption in the basic teachings of Islam. Unless we do not open your vision and outlook towards Islam we will never be able to understand this and will continue to live as it is , we may not be affected by this but our coming generations would probably see the evil effects of this.

[SBM]

To add to the answer of Humble servent
Lot of priests in Catholic religion were found to be Child Molester even Pope in his visit to USA acknowledged and majority of Christians remain silent,just because majority did not complain does not make it right. Catholic church is paying for its sins by selling churches and paying more than $ 1.5 billion in settling lawsuits,

[S. Insaf]

Brother Gulf,
You have said:
“So in other word u want to say huge majority of Bohras either fool or timid?”

I think you have not thought over enough before making such a statement.

We all drive our inspiration from Ahle-bait.
We all know from the history that Yazid a huge majority because he was a tyrant and merciless. Most of the umma were with him due to fear of persecution. Whereas Ahle-bat (A.S.) including Imam Husain (A.S.) never has absolute majority with them. Their followers were always persecuted. We can never think that they were either fools - not to join the main-stream nor they were timid- as they had unparallel courage to stand by their principles. At times their followers did appear timid and submissive but that was due to fear of persecution by tyrant rulers.

The same is the situation today in our community. Most of the Dawoodi Bohras are fed up with present regime but they did not raise their voice due to the fear of persecution. Because of then those who have courage to oppose the regime are in minority. So please do not ridicule them.

Dag mathe se siyah shab ka mitaya jaye
Dhoop nikli hai ujaloN main nahaya jaye

Mera khooN qabile-tazeem hai, kal ko shayad
Ek qatra bhi bagawat ka na paya jaye

[Al Zulfiqar]

Originally posted by Gulf:
humble sus,

so in other word u want to say huge majority
of bohras either fool or timid? why they (huge majority) execute all the farmane aali without making noise?

against the curruption progs have accept challange and how come they getting NO support??

where in the world has NO CURRUPTION?

gulf, to answer yr post point by point:

1. during british days only 1000 senior british army officers and beaureucrats ruled over india, a country in those days of 550 million people for over 350 years. how and why? do you mean all indians, inc. yr forefathers were fools and idiots?
2. the reformists are the only brave ones who have openly decided to leave the exploitative and unreligious rule of the syedna and his family. if the others dont leave, doesnt mean they are cowards either. they each have their own reasons why they do not find it possible to leave. because they dont come out in the open doesn't alo mean they support corruption!
3. yr last statement has now become the rallying cry of the fanatics, as if accepting corruption is ok and we should live with it. it is precisely because of this moral bankruptcy that bohras (TAHERIS) as a whole are following the example of their own leadership: a syedna and his family and enforcement establishment indulging in black money, avoiding taxes, bribing public officials, bending rules for their own gain, flagrantly violating even the basic principles of our deen, uttering laanats and physically carrying out threats against their opponents, hobnobbing with goondas and corrupt politicians like narendra modi and bal thackeray etc.

today the entire bohra qaum is a reflection of their own leadership. jaisa raja waisi praja. and you are a prime example of some one who has regressed on the evolutionary cycle due to the highly effective tactics of yr dai and his pilla's. where the rest of the human race is evolving, u are reverting to being a neanderthal!! i seriously doubt if u can even understand this...

[Humsafar]

the reformists are the only brave ones who have openly decided to leave the exploitative and unreligious rule of the syedna and his family.

Zulfiqar,

It is wrong to say that reformists "left" the community. We challenged the corruption of the Sayendna's administration and were ex-communicated. We're as much dawoodi bohras as any other. All that we're trying to do is restore the values and principle under which the dawat should operate. We were forced to set up our own jamaats out of social and religious needs and these jamaats serve as an example of what the rest of the community can be like.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Bro. Humsafar,

I do understand your sentiments and support them. If any bohra challenges the amils or kothar on anything and refuses to obey their diktats, he would of course, have to be prepared to face the consequences. the usual outcome is that he is refused raza's and they take an attitude of non-cooperation with him. they no longer issue written baraat or even announce it openly, they just sideline and isolate that person by way of insidious word-of-mouth campaigns and spreading hatred and misinformation about him. the end result? everyone starts shunning that person in the masjid/markaz etc and that person is so insulted and humiliated that he decides to stop attending any community events and most members stop all relations with him.

that is what i meant by 'leaving'. when the atmosphere gets so stifling and unbearable, the person automatically gets out of it.

as for reformists being as much dawoodi bohras, again i have no doubts about it. in fact they are the only dawoodi bohras remaining!!! those whose ranks they departed from are no longer bohras. their leadership has taken them so far away from the bohra faith and ideals that the only word to describe them now is TAHERIS. they are a strange cult, uttering nonsensical mumbo-jumbo in an absurd and comical language, singing blasphemous butt-licking crap in praise of their leader, getting more and more secretive and isolationist, wearing strange clothes and having even stranger rituals completely innovated by their sinister masters!

now remains the goal of trying to reform the corrupt dai and his establishment. all appeals to their conscience or morals or sense of justice has failed. the attempt to bring about reforms through dissemination of information to the common bohra is also proving extremely difficult. trying to get other muslims to support the reformists and expose the dai's misdeeds in the name of islam is also an uphill task, because he has bribed them all and bought them over as he has bought over and influenced politicians, police, goondas and state machinery in india and virtually every country where bohras reside.

what is the alternative remaining? the only avenue is force. since the reformists cannot indulge in violence, their only hope is legal force through the courts. that is the only reasonable road remaining to bring about some change.

but in the meanwhile, the dai's establishment has drifted far, far away from being faithful to the bohra scriptures or principles. with the passage of time, and as the kothar becomes ever more powerful and corrupt with their wealth and influence, the reformists will have nothing remaining to reform...!!!

the kothar knows this and are playing for time. fighting legal cases of this most complicated nature takes tremendous resources and most courts around the world have little knowledge or patience or resources to attempt to adjudicate in such complex religious matters of a little known and obscure sect, esp. when one of the protagonists easily obfuscates everything and is non-cooperative!

granted that the reformists have won some notable victories in recent times, but that has not prevented the dai and his family from amassing even more wealth or tightening their strangle hold even more tightly. thus they are more than happy when a few bohras 'leave' and remain busy in their own reformist circles. if they remain within and fight, they cause more harm, but then they are swiftly identified, hauled up, reprimanded and made to heel or eventually kicked out in the manner outlined above.

my sympathies totally lie with the reformists, but my contention is: what will remain to reform when those whom you term bohras are no longer that?

[Aftab]

Why should we have our own dai zamaan? We believe that we are the main stream and you have evolved in to some thing else.

[Muslim First]

.

Why a Muslim need a 'Dai zamaan" anyway?

Look at [present Dai Jaaman and for that matter MHI?

Their function is to misguide and loot.

.

[Humsafar]

my sympathies totally lie with the reformists, but my contention is: what will remain to reform when those whom you term bohras are no longer that?

Zulfiqar,

In this case the need for reform is more not less, and becomes far more urgent. Nobody knows how all this will end up, but in the present all we can do is do the right thing. And the right thing to do is to oppose the tyranny of the Kothar.

[Humsafar]

MF,

Why do Muslims need to breathe anyway?

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Bro Muslim First has posed a very logical question. Think about it. Progressives have survived without a Dai for decades now. The Dai doesn't do anything for the progressives, he doesn't lead the progressives in prayer, or perform their marriage or death rituals. They don't request the Dai raza in any of their activities. Infact the progressives have managed to survive with the hatred of the Dai. If the Dai were a spiritual or a godly person, I would think that he would probably be praying for the destruction of the progressives. And still the progressives do not learn that they don't need this Dai!!

[Humsafar]

anajmi,

The question is not of need in a functional sense but in the sense of tradition and identity. This would fall somewhere at "love and belonging needs" level in Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid.

Of course, progressives can do and have done without the Dai but that is not the point nor the objective of the reform movement. Our agenda was never to be able to do without the dai but to bring reforms. And as long as there is a need for reforms the movement will remain relevant. The question of Dai's relevance is immaterial to this project.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

The question is not of need in a functional sense but in the sense of tradition and identity. This would fall somewhere at "love and belonging needs" level in Maslow's hierarchy of needs pyramid.

Not sure if the progressives have received any love from the Dai and it also doesn't mean that the needs of "love and belonging" of the progressives have not been fulfilled. They have been, through other channels. The current and probably the next Dai, will want nothing to do with the progressives.

My response was simply in response to your post of

MF,

Why do Muslims need to breathe anyway?

You can and will be able to breathe without the Dai. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you will be fighting battles that are at least worthy.

[Aftab]

How can you say that what we are doing is not worthy. Untill each and every bohra is free of barat, excommunication and tyranny, we will not rest. Our issue is not with the dai but with human dignity and justice. Go and find a better cause than that?

[Aftab]

MF - what is MHI?

[Humsafar]

anajmi,

There's more at stake than just being able to breathe without the Dai. It's surprising that you being an advocate of Islam should find the battle against an "unislamic" clique not worthy enough. Of course, there will always be more worthy battles to fight but remember what Martin Luther King said - injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. In the end we must all pick our battles, but for those committed to justice and human rights that battle must be fought on many fronts. By fighting the tyranny of the Kothar, reformists are shining light in that little corner of the world, and to my that is as worthy a cause as any.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

You misunderstand. A worthy battle is to get rid of the damn Dai!! Not a battle that keeps him in place. And you know very well, that is what I have been advocating all along.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Originally posted by Humsafar:

the present all we can do is do the right thing. And the right thing to do is to oppose the tyranny of the Kothar.

the dilemma is that you cannot oppose the tyranny while within the community, they throw you out. if you are outside the folds of the community and try to do something, they ignore you and it does not make any difference to them anymore. any revolution to succeed must come from within, but it is cleverly pre-empted in our bohras' case, because they dont let you remain a part of them.

if it was a democracy, one could fight with respect to the constitution, but there is no constitution anymore and no democracy. that once again brings us to the question, how do you reform a corrupt kothar and its followers without the numbers and the resources? the only viable weapon to achieve real change is through the courts, but even that is proving well-nigh impossible with limited resources.

no matter how much i hate to say this, but history is witness that often the last resort of a tiny but determined opposing force is guerilla attacks; short, sharp, well-timed and well-planned attacks to sabotage the kothar and hurt its interests. look at the examples of che guevara and fidel castro, look at shivaji, look at the strategy of the trojan horse, consider how maulana ali took on vast opposing forces with shrewd strategies and concentrated, focused attacks. history is replete with such shining examples.

it is time to go back to the drawing board and change your tactics to bring about real change. if gandhi was able to achieve independence agsint the british by using non-violence and non-cooperation, it was only because the british had respect for their own cosnstitution and laws which gandhi used to his advantage. he was also able to awaken the conscience of the britons by appealing to their sense of justice and fair play. both those factors dont apply to the kothar which is evil, crooked and totally undemocratic.

even in udaipur, the most spectacular success story in the reformists freedom struggle, it was the brave youths and women who took matters into their own hands and physically threw out the kothari amils and chamchas. the rest of the community, as is typical with our bohras, then merely followed like sheep, to join the reformists ranks.

since you admit the urgency of the matter, before its too late and there is nothing left to reform, why not wake up and take bold and daring actions, instead of being so decent and civilised against an opponent of the lowest character?

in the west, all the amils are on temporary immigrant visas. expose them and have them sent back. expose the lady doctors from our community who are performing FGM. inform the revenue agencies about the shenanigans in our jamaats. use your connections with the media to expose the corruption and injustices in our community, join political parties, stand for provincial and federal elections, or even for city councils, influence your fellow MP's and colleagues and get them to take action against our jamaats and amils,... there is so much that can be done by being more proactive and being aggressive.

funnily, whenever i talk to my openly reformist friends who are no longer a part of the orthos, they just say that they have no interest in aggressively opposing and would just like to be left alone to live in peace. they dont want to be a part of an oppressive and unjust system and are happy among their little circle. is that why they became reformists??! how can you so easily forget the insults, humiliations and degradation you suffered at the hands of these rascals and just let it go without doing something concrete about it?

in my opinion it takes more guts to remain within a system and fight it and refuse to be cowed down or thrown out, no matter what tactics they try to eliminate you, instead of dis-associating yrself to seek mental peace.

[porus]

An important question for reformists is the character of the persons who can lead reform and their ability to attract Bohras to their cause.

One characteristic is that they should have absolute faith in the Tayyibi dawat as interpreted by successive Dais. If they find something amiss in this interpretation, then they should have sufficient knowledge of the religion to back up the claim.

They would not find acceptance if they do not believe in the basics of the faith, have little knowledge of Quran and important Tayyibi literature. I must add to this the knowledge of Lisaan-e-Daawat. This language has the power which would be difficult to under-estimate.

Sad to say, at least in the UK and the United States and Canada, these people do not exist among reformists that I know about. Most pay lip-service to faith so that they are not excluded from participation of religious and social functions.

Once people of the caliber I indicated are found, then appropriate model for them is Martin Luther King Jr. and the Civil Rights Movement. They believed in the United States Constitution and were ready to call in the pledges guaranteed to them under it. At the time there were alternative movements which advocated complete withdrawal of African-Americans either to an area within the United States or somewhere in Africa. These movements did not survive the knowledge and mobilization of King’s organization, not the least of it was the power of his oratory to move the masses.

I am continually surprised that, among the Bohra participants of this board, no interest is shown in discussing Quran or other religious basis of their faith. Maybe, leaders to take on Kothar at fdoundational level have yet to be born