The so called "Revisionism"

Guest · #1

Assalamu alaykum Dear "Mumineen"I would like to respond to your rebuttals. Firstly, I would like to apologize for using "brother" in reference to you. Munineen in arabic is gender indifferant word for believers; but I assumed and used brother.Now to the points:1.) I have listened and explained. If the Imam was present we would not have a Dai in charge of the community. Being the Imam?s representative is the only reason we follow his taqlid and say salwaat for the Imam he represented. It is no different than me performing hajj for my deceased grandfather who was not able to in his lifetime and doing it in his name. I get the sawab of performing the hajj for him, but my grandfather gets the actual sawab of performing the Hajj.And as far as daris..usually they are in the name of Sayedna Hatim bin Ibrahim of Yemen (3rd Dai) and not Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin and we do matam-e-Husayn then as well. We also do salwat in all Dai's names, not just Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin.2.) There isn?t revisionism, but revivalism. The things we do today should have been things we should have been doing before but weren't. If your referring to additional duas and salats..none of it is required or is fardh. The fardh salat and other required things are the same. It might have been that we never practiced them before and are now asked to that it seem like revisionism. The duas of sahifa sajjadiyah by Imam Zaynul Abidin was written 50-60 yrs after the prophets death. 3/4.) The base religion of Islam is the same; we just weren't practicing it. All the muslim communities around the world are experiencing this (sunni madhabs, ithna ashari, etc). Because of the modern methods of communication the masses of muslim are finally being told consistant information on the how Islam should have been practiced instead of one local mullah or shiek's interpretation on how things should be. Nothing has changed, but we weren't doing what we were suppose to in the first place.5.) If the Prophet did something or said something is mandatory for us to follow it. The Imams and the Dais say it is. We are being asked to follow in the footsteps of these luminaries. Did the Prophet and the Imams wear sayos (cloak), head covering, beard, and enjoin the ridah on women? Yes!"There is no compulsion in religion..." this applies only until you take the shahadat; after that everything in the religion is compulsory to the muslim otherwise you are no longer a muslim. Do not play with the intent of God's words to suit your needs.6.) I was born in Africa, my relatives and wife are from and in India, and my relatives are in Pakistan...I do know how these places works and its the same if not a bit more relaxed then in the US. The experience I mentioned of the nikah occured in the US.7.) I did compare, and apparently you didn't read closely enough or at all. My question is still unanswered. In fact, over the Ramadhan we took the misaq (bayah or allegiance) on the night of Maulana Ali's wafat, so what is in the misaq is fresh in my mind. Maybe not in yours.8.) Laghat is the cost for performing a personal service for a muslim by the qadi (be it a amil, bhaisaheb, wali mullah). People don't do things for free. If you get married at a sunni or ithna ashari qadi they asked for the same thing (it may not be called a laghat per se but a marriage fee). 9.) I have read these allegiations and as of yet not one member of the reform group has provided proof other than personal hearsay or conjecture of what they think is going on. Of the 8 taxes you listed, 5 are wajib on all muslims. The other 3 are not and you are not required to pay. The listing of nazrana/salams are not required other than the misaq and that you can do without monetary salams10.) Do you have any proof for the allegiation of who pays for who? Are you paying for these shazadas/shazadis personally? Please explain.11.) Regarding the bhaisahebs and amils that went to jamia...you did ask me how many went to jamia and I told you all the ones I know of went to jamia. I know many mullahs and shieks who didn't go to jamia...there not in positions of religious authority such as a bhaisaheb/amil or even heading the madrasa. I asked you to name some that didn't. You had no answer...your own statement applies... "silence is consent".12.) I read the report...it consists of a letter written of committe to UNESCO, not a complaint to the government of Egypt from UNESCO. Was the letter rejected or accepted? Egypt currently is making tons of money from the refurbishment of fatimid mosques (tourist trade) and have enacted a program to refurbish other Islamic mosques and antiquities of egypt on their own (close to 10 million dollars/year).13/14.) I am a muslim and could care less about my race or ethicity or birth origin. In Islam these other things have no matter or relevance. Salman Farsi was persian but he was a muslim and shia first and foremost. These things are divisions between the ummah and are promoted by the kafirs. Yes, most muslims are brainwashed into believing race and nationalism is important...its not! And a side note: as much respect as I have for Hindus, in the end they are pagans. If I was Hindu before (and alhamd'Allah I wasn't) I was in complete darkness.15.) Actually, I go to every majlis during the entire year, and actually pay attention! Apparently you don't, otherwise I would not have to keep explaining this point.16.) We go for zikr of Tahir Saifudin on his urus or wafat and do matam-e-Husayn (translated Matam of Husayn). We may do madehs (poem) of Tahir Saifudin, but there is a world of difference between a matam and a madeh.Name change - Again the Prophet did this. Should follow you, the kothar, the Dai, or the Prophet? If follow the Prophet, his Imams, and Imam as'Satr's Dai in his ghaybat.Marriage - it is a matter of money when you ask the bhaisaheb of a jamat to perform a nikah yet haven't paid the sabil for the jamat (the sabil has bhaisaheb's salary, as well as the rent or property tax for the markez/mosques, utilities expenses, etc. in it). You think you can go to any sunni mosque and have the qadi do a nikah, janaza, or other rite for free?! Its the same in the christian churchs. You can't go to a priest or minister of a church that your a member of and expect him to perform your service when you haven't paid the church member costs for running the church...do you? Your crazy for thinking that way. Raza - your opinion is not an answer.

Guest · #2

This is annoying. Can you stick to the thread please?

Guest · #3

Mr. Husayn:1) You still have NOT responded to the questions: Why the special salwaat for the 51st Dai. Weren't the other 50 Dais Imam's representatives as well? You indicate "We also do salwat in all Dais names, not just Sayedna Tahir Saifuddin". I wouldn't say that you are lying but you are not telling the truth either. (Taquiyah!!) . Have you ever seen or heard the little Chithi on the fateha foodstuff where you have been directed to say salwaat for Dais other than Syedna Tahir Saifuddin?2. You can fool yourself and others by your semantics. The rose by any other name smells all the same. BUT You still haven't answered the question: Why offer special prayers for 51st and 52nd Dai specifically? Weren't the other 50 Dais Imam's representatives as well? Why is it NOT sufficient to offer prayers collectively for Duat Satr as it had already been done? Weren't the other 50 Dais competent enough to "revive" the practices as "revised" by the 51st and 52nd Kothar? The duas of sahifa sajjadiyah by Imam Zaynul Abidin was written 50-60 yrs after the prophets death. But this Dua has NOT been revised or revived by the Imams or 50 Dais. Isn't this argument for this purpose a red herring? 3/4.) We think what you mean to say that we were not practising the base religion of Islam during the Imams' or 50 Dais times and only the 51st and 52nd Dai because of the Information Age opened our eyes and communicated the true essence of Islam. How low (base)can your rebuttal get?5) Perhaps you do NOT know the difference between waajib and sunnah? BUT again the question is why didn't the Imams and the other 50 Dais impose these tenets on their flocks. They only guided the followers on these rules and regulations by examples; and if the followers did NOT follow the rules, it was between their Allah and themselves. There was NO imposition or dire consequences for simple breaches of attire or grooming. And where does it say either in the Quran, Shariyah or Hadith that " that everything in the religion is compulsory to the muslim otherwise you are no longer a muslim. " 6.) We would again ask you to refer to "my story" link, among others, on this website for examples of atrocities committed by the Kotharis. We would also encourage you to refer to the Nathwani /Tarkunde Commission's report on the present Syedna's inhuman regime. There numerous Bohris have given evidence under oath on how the Kotharis ran a reign of terror on their personal lives. You obviously are referring on one example of a Nikah in USA. One swallow does not make a summer.7.) If you did compare, then you saw two versions of MISAQ - the original version and the revised version. The question again for the umpteenth time - why the revision? We are NOT questioning whether you did or did NOT take your misaq. . 8.) If you refer to all your past responses on this posting, you will notice that you are unashamedly admitting, in numerous places, that all these Kothari practices boil down to the question of payment, wajibaats, laghat or fees. Kotharis are running this community as their personal family fifedom and running this community as a commercial enterprise, institution or a business.9.) These are not allegations but accusations based on facts and personal experiences throughout the Bohri world. Perhaps you have NOT experienced it because you are part of the Kothari administration, inner cabinet or one of the numerous patronage appointments and a sycophant who imposes their Kothari given power on the innocent hard working Bohris flock by extorting funds for personal use. If Kothar was honest and sincere enough, why don't they publish audited accounts? 10.) Can you tell me how do the Kotharis - princes, princesses maintain themselves throughout the world.? How do they pay for their lavish lifestyles including the maintenance of various palaces throughout the world? How come there is no accounting? When one goes to Saifee Mahal, he/she only sees non-bohris working in the offices looking after the books of accounts. Why? Why can't they give employment to the unemployed Bohris? This is a rhetorical question. We are sure you know the answer. 11.) The WaliMullas/ waliulamars of certain small centres in Florida, California, Alberta, Ontario are most or all patronage appointments - Mullas or Sheikhs. Please refer to the Jamaat links of the international jamaats and you can make separate the wheat from the chafe. 12.) You had asked us for substantiation of UNESCO's reports and actions which we did. Now that you are embarrassed, you are endeavouring to justify the Kothari actions - which again boils down to money. Two wrongs do not make a right. Whether the complaint was accepted for rejected is irrelevant. Kothar always pays off the politicians and government officials by appropriating funds - from BaytulMaal, when they are caught red-handed breaking the laws of the countries.(Remember the deportation of the Dai from Tanzania)?13/14.) What do you say when the Kothar makes divisions out of the Bohris - by issuing Red, Yellow and Green Chithis; by appointing non-religious people of substance, with patronage appointment of Mullas, Sheikhs, NKDs and MKDs. They even get to wear different paaghris and they get a preference to stand in font safs during prayers; they get preference to do kadam bosi; sit in inner cabinet thaals . Kotharis women can not get married to rank-and-file Bohri males; We thought you admitted "These things are divisions between the ummah and are promoted by the kafirs". Who are the kaffirs now?We know you are in complete darkness when you admit that "If I was Hindu before (and alhamd'Allah I wasn't) I was in complete darkness.". Unless your origin is Yemeni (or your ancestors were somehow misbehaving!!) all the south asian Bohris are originally converts from the Hindus. Please ask your learned Kothari leaders to narrate the glorious history of Moulai Taarmal, Bharmal and Syedna Nurdin Saheb, among others.15.) 16.) We are again not calling you a liar but we doubt that you have never performed matam for the wafaat of Syedna Tahir Saifuddin Saheb. Perhaps we go to majlises in different cities.!! Name change - Again the Prophet did this. Should follow you, the kothar, the Dai, or the Prophet? If follow the Prophet, his Imams, and Imam as'Satr's Dai in his ghaybat. Marriage - Again we agree it is a simple matter of money. Case rested!!Please answer the questions rather than beat about the bush or throw some red herrings. And please refrain from indulging in semantics or playing the same broken record - I am sure you are old enough to know what a broken record used to do in the good old days!!! Profound apologies for being direct this time.WassalamRaza - Neither is yours. The only thing we agree on is all this revisionism is due to money. Case rested!!

Guest · #4

Assalamu alaykum Firstly I apologize for switching to another post...I thought the other was getting longer.Now to the reply:1.) Salwaat is said upon every Dais. You refer to the chitti on mithis. Whenever there is a Daris for Syedna Hatim there is a salwat recited for him from those chitti or in the ahlan. You however seem to forget what the salwaat is and its meaning as I pointed out. Nowhere in the salwat is the Dai?s name placed.2.) The other fifty Dai as well as most of the Imams either had little control or influence on the majority of the community. Most of the time they were being attacked by the enemies of dawat. Its hard to ask people to perform a practice of general Islam, let alone prayers for you, under these situations. Secondly, its not required for you to do any of these types of prayers. The Prophet never asked us to pray two rakats for him...but we do this as well! Within the last 30 to 40 years, many of the hindu and paganistics practices we performed (infiltrated into bohri customs) have been slowly weeded out. The knowledge is the same but the control and acceptance of the community was not there until now.The duas of Imam Zaynul Abidin were always there..but were not known let alone recited by the community. Many mumineen today don't know about these duas and where they come from (some actually think the Dais wrote them). Ignorance is prevealant in our community, but ignorance and the not wanting to learn is not an excuse. Nothing is being revised...you're being taught things you never had the chance to learn.3/4.) Your reply is not what I said. The religion is the same...just because I, you or others didn't know things doesn't mean things had been revised or added.5.) I do know the meanings of these words (wajib or fardh-required, sunnah-tradition of the Prophet and Imams). It is hard to impose things when your own community tries to kill and attack you. This was the condition of the Imams other than the fatimid imams and was the same for majority of the Dais.Regarding dress and such..the only place that the requirement for kurta, ridah, etc. are upheld are in the markez/mosques/ziyarat/musafir khanna. Outside that you can and most do do as they like. What dire consequences are you talking about!Mumineen, the response "And where does it say either in the Quran, Shariyah or Hadith that " that everything in the religion is compulsory to the muslim otherwise you are no longer a muslim. " is indictative of the ignorance which exists in our community. Read the Quran in its entirety and not just verses here and there. What is the point of taking the shahadat and yet not acknowledging the requirement of the statements. Not practicing is one thing (you're just disobediant) but not acknowledging that you are required to do a practice means you don't believe in the One who tells to do it (ie. Allah says to perform salat, so it is compulsory to perform salat). I addressed Br. Muslim on this same issue in the archive.6.) My example is one of many that I have personally experienced and know of. These are very contrary to yours. 7.) I did compare...I compared what my grand parents said in their misaq to what I said last month in the refirmation of my misaq...they're the same. What else did you what me to compare to? The article didn't post "a original misaq" by any other Dai. You can use one from the Imam's time since the Imam was present (but it was same according to hadiths except for the Dai). Please explain?! The comments of the article is the authors opinion and I could care less for that...no facts are given!8.) Again, the things you call kothari practices are wajib on all muslim...not because the kothari says so, but because Allah does in the Quran, and the Prophet and Imams in hadith.9.) I am not part of the kothari administration or such...I just do not know the facts. However, unlike you and others I don't make blatant allegations without proofs/facts. In the US, you can get arrested for that!10.) Money from khums (a wajibat) half of which goes to the Imam or his representative (the Dai). The other half goes to something that the Imam or his representative feels it should go to (it's his decision).11.) Are they incharge of religious teachings? No they are not. Are they the ones that give raza for teaching full Islamic teachings. No. They are given instructions and are limited to what they teach (they can teach wudu and salat) if they have been given raza. Why do they need raza? In case they teach more than they are actually qualified to teach.12.) You didn't answer my question. You gave a report from a committee to UNESCO. That's like an internal memo. You didn't answer if UNESCO approved the report...if it was sent to goverment of Egypt...or what?13/14.) If you paid your wajibat (required by Allah) you have nothing to worry about. That a division by Allah...between the mumineen and the munafiqeen. I didn't deny my Asian upbringing...but Hindus follow Hinduism which is paganism. You obviously don't know the difference. I am a muslim, and insh'Allah a mumin, and when you're a muslim it doesn't matter if you were Hindu, Christian, Parsi, etc. before...you are now a muslim only. Your ethnicity maybe different (majority of muslims aren't of arab decent) but you are first and foremost muslim!15.) Again you misunderstood or just didn't read my reply. We perform matam-e-Husayn during the night of wafat/urus of every Dai...be it Syedna Hatim Saheb, Syedna Najmuddin Saheb, Syedna Noorudin, Syedna Tahir Saifuddin, etc. You obviously think your doing matam-e-Tahir Saifudin...this shows your ignorance again.I am tired of answering your questions when you don't want to reply with evidence that my answers are wrong. That not a debate of any kind..its a one way argument. You make statements of your own opinion and provide no evidence, yet ask me questions and to provide evidence with my answers. Because of this ...yes you do sound like a broken record.Was salam

Guest · #5

So where and how did the 51st and 52nd Dai acquire the power, control and influence over the community which, according to you, the other 21 Imams and 50 Dais did not or could not have? Money, black-mail, extortion and other un-Islamic exploitations on the gullible flock - one would suppose??To use some of your own belly-aches, I am tired of responding to your tirades when you don't want to reply with any evidence any of my questions (including the question of money). That is not a debate of any kind..its a unilateral argument. You make statements of your own opinion and provide no evidence except semantics yet ask me questions and to provide evidence for my questions. A person asking a question for a question is either arrogant/egoist or plain naive/ignorant or a down-right twit. The Shah of Persia, who thought he was doing it quite cunningly or cleverly found it the hard way - and you or your Kothari "elite-cliques" try that all the time when fielding honest questions. And you are NO shah of Persia. Because of this ...yes you do sound like a broken record. There are no silly questions - only silly/naive/studpid answers, if any!!!By the, Hindus are not pagans, they believe in the unity of one God as well-"Parmatma") .However, they believe in the medium like the idols to reach God; like some of you Kotharis do use - the Tasweer/picture of Moulana on your prayer rugs, cars etc. and at home to reach and supplicate to Almighty Allah.Case rested!!

Guest · #6

Assalamu alaykum "mumineen"To answer your first part..the majority united behind the Dai like they were suppose to and thru the medias available today and over the last 30-40 years are connected with other mumineen. The Dai is reaching more of the mumineen outside of just Mumbai and over all India via travel/mobilization to locations where others have settled which wasn't available before. Regarding your second part...the only answer I didn't give you was the one I said I didn't know about. I gave you evidence where you asked for it and commented/explained where you asked for it. You however, did none of the above, other than saying I was wrong without any proofs to back your statements. Read your own posts once in awhile and compare your comments. You say don't answer a question with a question, you do it all the time.And by the way, Hindus believe in one God that is divide into three entity and who essense is in idols of clay with which they worship...sounds like idol worship to me; Allah in the Quran calls those who worship idols pagans! Mumineen pray their duas to Allah alone and ask Maulana to pray dua to Allah for them. We pray towards the Kaba and pray to Allah. We do not pray towards the picture, though we look at it for remembrance of the Dai sometimes.Was salam

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The so called "Revisionism"

The so called "Revisionism"

Re: The so called "Revisionism"

Re: The so called "Revisionism"

Re: The so called "Revisionism"

Re: The so called "Revisionism"

Re: The so called "Revisionism"

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