Ismaili Interpretation of 2.28

[muhammad khan]

Bro anajmi,

[ 2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. ........ Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so. ......

I don't know the Ismaili interpretation of the above. I don’t even know if there is any such thing like ‘Ismaili Interpretation of 2.282’. Ismailies live in more than 25 different countries with different cultural background and also that Ismailism appreciate pluralism, the authority at Ismailism will not force their interpretation on every Ismaili. What I mean by this is the interpretation of 2.282 might differ from Ismaili to Ismaili. Most of the time the interpretation of an Ismaili depends upon his or her neighborhood (the cultural background of the city which he/she is from)

If you want Official interpretation of 2:282 please contact http://akdn.org/

My Interpretation of 2.282 (not The Ismaili interpretation)

Women were not are very educated in terms of commerce in those days. There are still many women who don’t have good knowledge of commerce and economics. So here Quran is giving a logical way (very intelligent way) to solve this problem and that is taking two women instead of one. This way if one forgets some terminology other might remember.

If there are two witnesses, one is a man without any knowledge in commerce and other is a woman who is an economist. Then in this case the woman’s testimony has way more weight age than the man’s testimony. And according to my interpretation (Not The Ismaili Interpretation) I strongly believe that I do not contradict with Quran on this. I strongly believe that according to Quran “The woman's testimony is equal to the man's testimony”.

Many times these kinds of questions arise in the mind of people when they read Quran to find faults in them. And then they make a big deal of it.

Many Anti-Islamic and a few Wahabi websites are using this ayath to satisfy their political motives. While the former combines it with some hadiths and claims that Quran ill-treats women and the latter use it to make women their slaves. I don’t agree with both of them.

[jawanmardan]

Bro, I would say that this Ayah represents the minimum rights, and that in the modern world, and in the future Women must be given equal rights in court to me.

There are also misinterpretations of the Qu’ran such as Yusaf Ali, and Picknell, who use Ayah to justify that a Man has the right to beat women, and other such nonsense.

We need young and thoughtful Muslims to work on a “Standard” English translation, working across sectarian bounds for those of us who live in the English speaking world.

I took 101 Arabic while at university and was stunned by how far and how simplified such a complex work of beauty as the Qu’ran; has been changed in translation, and how poor Tafsir is today.

There are millions of Muslims in the west but we have failed to give the western audience a Qu’ranic translation that adequately meets their needs in learning about Islam.

[anajmi]

Bro muhammad khan,

Thank you for your explanation.

You said

If there are two witnesses, one is a man without any knowledge in commerce and other is a woman who is an economist. Then in this case the woman’s testimony has way more weight age than the man’s testimony. And according to my interpretation (Not The Ismaili Interpretation) I strongly believe that I do not contradict with Quran on this. I strongly believe that according to Quran “The woman's testimony is equal to the man's testimony”.

If you look at my responses to bro jawanmardan in the thread where we discussed this before, you will see that I was trying to convey exactly the same message, but bro jawanmardan couldn't get beyond suicide bombers.

From the web site link that you gave I have sent the following email to this address information@aiglemont.org

Hi,

I am looking for an interpretation of an ayah of the quran according to His Highness The Aga Khan. The ayah is from surah Bakara, the 2nd surah of the quran and the ayah number is 282. Please let me know if it is possible for me to get an answer from him. If you need more information about me, I am willing to provide that. If there is a website which answers similar questions, please let me know and I will post my query over there.

Thanks


I will let you know the response that I get.

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi, I found the question quite odd, and narrowly framed, your failure to clarify the question; and my failure to make certain I knew what you were asking forced me to take the route of trying to give you a theological understanding; of my point of view.
I doubt that the Secretariat will respond to questions of a religious nature, but I hope you gain of satisfaction.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Actually, I am absolutely certain that I won't get any response for my email.

About the quran, you need to remember that it is the word of Allah. Allah is knowledgeable about the past, present and future. To claim that a certain ayah of the quran is invalid or outdated is to attribute incompetency to Allah. Does Allah know more about what is valid today or do you? Don't you think that he knew what would happen to woman in 2000 years after the quran is revealed? Even during the time of the prophet there were business women. The prophet's wife, the first muslim woman, Hazrat Khadija was a top business woman. Islam doesn't degrade woman nor does it teach that women are lower than men.

[jawanmardan]

I agree with you that the Qu’ran is eternal. However if someone interprets this Ayah or any other claiming that two women equal one man in court; even today I refuse to accept that idea as Godly.

If an Ayah is used to say that men can beat their wives even lightly, I refuse to make that my belief. In fact that appears many translations of the Qu’ran; but I believe it comes from a poor translation, I studied the Qu’ran at university as part of my textual studies in an Arabic class, and my professor proved that that is a misrepresentation.

If someone uses the Qu’ran to say slavery is valid today, I don’t accept that. I believe Islam regulated slavery which was a common practice in that era, but that it urges us to give it up as a practice. Today Slavery particularly of women, should be viewed as a crime.

The same is true for polygamy, the Qu’ran encourages monogamy, and discourages, and places limits on Polygamy. That’s an outdated practice.

One cannot use Ayah in isolation to claim Muslims ought to create a patriarchal society in which women are neither seen nor heard. I think that Khadijah is an exemplary example of Islam’s view of women. However brother too many Muslims are misogynists and miss-quote the Qu’ran to keep women subjugated.

[porus]

jawanmardan,

THe first ayat of the Quran is "In the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful"

Would you say that Allah has these qualities, compassion and mercy, to the infinite extent?

[I remember a Sufi translates Allahu-Akbar as "God is the greatest", not just "God is Great". This is to indicate that God is infinitely great.]

If Allah is infinitely compassionate, then would you agree that his compassion is operative instantaneously. And yet, what is your experience of God's compassion as far as human suffering is concerned?

Why would God need to be merciful? To forgive sins so the sinner avoids punishment, right? How do you square infinite mercy with with the need to create hell where no compassion or mercy is shown to the sinner?

If infinte compassion and infinite mercy is instantaneously effective, by definition, why do humans experience delay in their application.

These are questions for you in your baatin/taawil clases, if you attend them. One clue is that compassion and mercy do indeed operate instantaneously, but we do not experience them because we live in a self-created illusion.

[jawanmardan]

Porus, You raise interesting questions, and a thought provoking explanation. I’ve been reading about this recently in a very basic fashion.

The journey of the Prophet, is important but also in regard to realization, and awareness where he was lead to being “within two bow lengths” of the presence of God.

Here are the following verses that mention the Night Journey:

[17:1] Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant during the night, from the Sacred Masjid to the farthest place of prostration, whose surroundings we have blessed, in order to show him some of our signs. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

[53:01] “As the stars fell away”. ..goes on to [53:18] describing his journey.

It seems to me to indicate a universal journey toward the Creator, and a journey from the Creator to creation, which is by the Creator, a journey that could not be undertaken without Gods positive will.

This unites the precepts Creator (as both destination, and Origin), Universe (through which the journey can take place), and Human (traveller).

The Prophet arrives in his Creators presence, and the returns from the Presence of his creator. “Through Him, from Him” as Ibn Arabi said.

But how can the Prophet Journey to God, God’s presence is everywhere? Humanity is separated from beasts in our curiosity, our driven need to explore intellectually our Universe, Humanity, and our Creator. Our cyclical journey leads us back to where our questions began, but we have gained through the journey (the trials, and lessons) a better insight to Reality.

I can go on, but will leave it there for now…It’s been a while since I had any instruction but let me know if that makes sense.

[anajmi]

These are questions for you in your baatin/taawil clases, if you attend them. One clue is that compassion and mercy do indeed operate instantaneously, but we do not experience them because we live in a self-created illusion.

Apparently our self created illusion is far more powerful than the compassion and mercy of Allah.

jawanmardan,

Can you provide the correct translation of the ayahs that you referred to? Mind you, I am not looking for an interpretation, just a translation.

[anajmi]

However if someone interprets this Ayah or any other claiming that two women equal one man in court; even today I refuse to accept that idea as Godly.

Unfortunately, you began your discussion with me assuming that I believed that two women equal one man in court. You hadn't even asked me for an interpretation till that point. It is you who has decided how I have interpreted the quran and then you have decided that it is wrong.

And I would still be looking forward to seeing the translation of ayah you referred to. Kindly provide the correct representation from your professor who proved that it was a misrepresentation.

If someone uses the Qu’ran to say slavery is valid today, I don’t accept that.

Have you met anybody who says slavery is ok in the recent past? Did you know that America employs slave women in the Samoan islands? Did you know that the only industry where child slavery still thrives is the chocolate industry and the western nations are the biggest consumers of these chocolates?

The same is true for polygamy, the Qu’ran encourages monogamy, and discourages, and places limits on Polygamy. That’s an outdated practice.

Now you are getting into the realm of disbelief. The quran is pretty clear in what it allows and what it does not. To say it is an outdated practice is to claim that the quran is outdated. Unless your professor has the correct representation of that ayah, try not to misrepresent the quran.

[anajmi]

Now coming to porus' analysis of God's infinite mercy and compassion. Do you realize that if God were to be the kind of merciful and compassionate as you expect him to be there would be no motivation for a righteous person to be righteous? Why should I stay away from sin if the sinner is also going to end up in jannah with me?

Now for human suffering. The inequality that we see amongst humans, which eventually leads to human suffering, is necessary for the functioning of the world. If everyone on earth were created equal, the world would stop functioning. No one would clean your garbage and no one would grow your food. This inequality leads to suffering because of the selfishness of humans.

[muhammad khan]

Allah is knowledgeable about the past, present and future.

I agree.

To claim that a certain ayah of the quran is invalid or outdated is to attribute incompetency to Allah.

I agree partially with you here. Ayah is never invalid. No Ayahs become Outdated AND useless. But an Ayahs can have a time bond, IF the meaning is taking in outer sense.

Time and Culture do have its effect on Ayahs. If Allah sends some things that has no time and culteral bound then human will never be able to understand it. So there is defiantly influence of time and culture on Quran.

You can even see the cultural difference in Makki and Madini Ayahs. Because one is targeted towards farmers and other is towards businessmen.

Quran was send to Muhammad by Allah in Middle East, if this incident would have taken in China or Russia, you might not have seen Allah talking about Date fruits and Olive trees. May be Allah would not have associated hell will heat as you know Russians love hot weathers.

Now here the problem is not with Allah. The problem is with Human. Human beings understand things in a better manner if someone relates then to their culture.

I am not saying Quran is not applicable now or Quran will be out dated after 1000 years from now. I defiantly don’t mean this. The basic message of Quran will remain same even after 50,000 years from now. The message of tawhid, Nabuvat, forgiveness, generosity, humbleness, charity, helping nature, justice, salaat, etc, will remain true for every.

The essence of Quran will be same.

The Ayah 2.282 tells us to be just and smart. I think here Allah is emphasizing on the role of intellect.

Does Allah know more about what is valid today or do you?

He Does.

Don't you think that he knew what would happen to woman in 2000 years after the quran is revealed?

Defiantly he knows everything. Here Allah is solving a problem for Muslims of that place and time. Instead of deriving that '2 women got selected over 1 man' from the above Ayah, we can derive that “one should use his intellect in solving problems. He also should be just and rational while dealing with others.”

Again this is MY PERSONAL interpretation, nothing to do with ismailies. jawanmardan and pardesi might differ from my interpretation.

[anajmi]

br muhammad khan,

Quran was send to Muhammad by Allah in Middle East, if this incident would have taken in China or Russia, you might not have seen Allah talking about Date fruits and Olive trees. May be Allah would not have associated hell will heat as you know Russians love hot weathers.

Do you think Allah through a dice to choose where he wanted to send the quran and then designed the quran based upon which place was selected? Or do you think Allah knew exactly where he wanted to send the quran and what he wanted to say in the quran? Do you think people who read the quran in Russia will not be afraid of hell fire? Do you think Allah did not take Russia into consideration when he sent the prophet as a mercy to "All Mankind" because hell fire won't affect them in any case?

If you limit the quran within a time and space you come up with these silly arguments. I lived in chicago for three years through the 2nd highest recorded snow fall in history. I still never thought that burning myself would be a good idea.

[Muslim First]

.
Mkhan wrote:

I agree partially with you here. Ayah is never invalid. No Ayahs become Outdated AND useless. But an Ayahs can have a time bond ,

Where in Qur'an, Sunnah or Prophet SAW's Ahadith say that Aya's can be time bouned?

Or this is Ismaili-speak to introduce innovation like owning Hotels sering pork and Alchohole, Breeding horses used in racing (for betting purpose). Changing Traditional Salat, Not fasting in Ramadan, not going to Hajj and giving your daughters to non-Muslims?

Do you think 2:221 is Time bound Aya?

Or do you have esoteric translation of 2:221?

Today is Jumma for Muslims (Friday Congretional prayers if you have not heard this term). Do you have Jumma prayers as commanded in Qur'an?, or your Farmans and Ginan forbids it.

Will your Maula lead Jumma prayers where ever he is and give Khutba?

I have more questions later.

Jumaa Mabruk for all my Muslim Brothers. May allah accept our prayers

.

[Muslim First]

Br. Anajmi

Do you think Allah through a dice to choose where he wanted to send the quran and then designed the quran based upon which place was selected?

Watch out! Porush might read this as another wahabi conspiracy to blame shias that Muhammad SAW was a accidental Prophet!!!!

Say Dua for me in your prayers

Wasalaam
.

[anajmi]

Defiantly he knows everything. Here Allah is solving a problem for Muslims of that place and time. Instead of deriving that '2 women got selected over 1 man' from the above Ayah, we can derive that “one should use his intellect in solving problems. He also should be just and rational while dealing with others.”

Br Khan,

Do you think that you are smarter than the people of mecca were during the time of the prophet? Do you think that if Allah had said, "Use your intellect in solving problems" they wouldn't have understood and hence Allah had to give specific instructions?

[Zeal]

Br Muslim First ,
Sorry for an odd question in betw,

Is there a specific reason why you add that 'H' at the end of Porus or is just that your eyes have always found it with an H ?

[jawanmardan]

Brother, anajmi

Unfortunately, you began your discussion with me assuming that I believed that two women equal one man in court. You hadn't even asked me for an interpretation till that point. It is you who has decided how I have interpreted the quran and then you have decided that it is wrong.

I was not try to insinuate that those interpretations were yours.

I was making the point that I refuse accept those interpretations, not that you had those interpretations. I actually read your post and said that I agreed with you. Re-read my post is said “If someone” makes the following interpretations then I will disagree with them. I have met Muslims who unfortunately do believe those interpretations. If you say to me I don’t interpret the Qu’an in that way I respect that.

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi,

I will deal with the Ayah misrepresentation as giving men the right to beat women, and give you what I have learned, may God forgive my errors.

I am going to use one example but my writing will make reference to all translations.

Here is a typical example by Yasaf Ali:

4:34

*Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient,

and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct,

** admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds,

***(And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For God is Most High, great (above you all)

Let me first say that Yusaf’s translation is not all bad he has made substantial improvements over previous versions, which I will briefly cover.

*If we look at line one, the Classical Arabic root Qawwam or “Qwm”, does not translate as Lord or Master as in some translations, but as “Provider” this is because it’s root derivative is Qaim which is “to care for”. Yusaf translateds this as “protector and maintainer” which is an improvement over Lord and Master.

Another important reference is the Arabic “Quanitat” which translates as devotion to God not to Husband, yet the translation here is “devoutly obedient”, to their husband, not God, yet 2:116 , 16 :120, 33:35 use Quanitat in reference to God or his divine character, not man.

**Nushuz, means a failure to act or and dislike, as in 4:128, not treating them badly or as in this translation “admonish” them, as your first act. Fa’izu means to “melt their hearts with your words” . Wahjauru Hina is to “create space between body to body”, giving one another space to reflect and reconsider you dispute, not just as is assumed not having sex, or molesting them. It’s actually far subtler.

***The final part leads us to the verse dealing with beating your wife, Darub, which actually is a symbolic word which Darub which is to have metaphorical, symbolic sex, it is popularly used as such in modern Arabic, particularly in poetry. If they are to open their hearts to you enter their love, do not hold out stubbornly, or hold things against them, it could even refer to make up sex as some modern writers have suggested.

What I have presented is still debated, but I am inclined to see what I have just presented as more in line with what our Noble Prophet Muhammad Peace be unto him, would have taught us, and teaches us something that modern therapists encourage more beautifully.

Please note that I am not dodging questions; if I dealt with everyone of the ayahs It would take considerable time...please take this a genuine interest on my part to reach understanding.

Salaam wa alikum

[jawanmardan]

Muslim First; We are discussing Qu'ran; relization of God, Mercy and the rights of women.

Not my tariqah.

Your welcome to take part but if you want to create fitna go to the isma'ili Imamate thread and post questions there.

If an Isma'ili decides to respond you can discuss it there.

Wa salaam

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi;

here is a better translation:

34. Men are the support of women as God gives some more means than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are averse, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and go to bed with them (when they are willing). If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and great.

[Sajid Zafar]

Muslim First,

Could you please explain who has given you the right to make judgments regarding who the beliefs of others? Please make not that I am not justifying that Ismaili Tariqah is right and I don’t care how and what other practices, no matter whether they call themselves Muslims. After all we will be questioned for your own deeds at the Day of Judgment.

Or you belong to the same clan of people who formed the “Burqah Brigade” in Lal Masjid.

[Sajid Zafar]

Sorry. Please read the first line as:

Could you please explain who has given you the right to make judgments regarding who beliefs what?

[Sajid Zafar]

belives in place of beliefs

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

He is a very detailed explanation of that ayah to an extent based on your translation but it does not completely agree with your assessment and I agree more with this assessment than with yours.

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Quran-4-34.htm

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi,

The translation was not mine just one I happen to agree with based on what knowledge I have aquired at this point.

Thank you for the link, I found it an informative read; however it also translates as giving men the right to beat their wives which I will never accept.

Secondly it gives men overall command of women, which I also do not agree with.

[porus]

jawanmardan,

Would you care to comment on the first part of 3:19 and 3:85?

What do you think is the meaning of the word Islam in those ayats? Does it mean only the Wahhabi version is acceptable to God, considering Wahhabis are the only ones calling non-Wahhabi "muslims" anything from deviants to outright kafirs.

[porus]

And what about those who follow other religions? Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists etc.

What will happen to these 'losers' as 3:85 pts it? Would God give them a chance to convert to Islam on the Day of Judgement, considering he is compassionate and merciful?

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

That is ok. You have every right to accept or reject whatever you want. One should not try to change the meaning of that which one does not agree with.

[jawanmardan]

Anajmi,

One should not try to change the meaning of that which one does not agree with.

I thought I presented a reasonable case for that Ayah being misrepresented. I haven’t changed the Ayah meaning for connivance, can a truly divine being justify violence as part of domestic bliss?

Do you believe this Ayah allows for domestic violence? Or than women are under the command of men?