Evolution/ Darwinism

[confused]

Every time any friends of different religions discuss the above, I tend to go silent for lack of opinion. I would like to get some broad views on evolution and Islam. Links and posts are most welcome.

[syed]

We as muslims believe Quraan for whatever it says and if anything that conflicts with it will be rejected.

first human on earth was Prophet Adam AS, and mother Hawwa(Eve) so any such theory will be rejected which says humans were monkeys.... rubbish..

and all major religions of the world believe in Adam and Eve, and none says they were monkeys... so if some darwin propogates a theory that humans were monkey then its just a theory.

[jawanmardan]

Evolution, or Darwinian evolution is a complex theory; that is deeply profound.

so any such theory will be rejected which says humans were monkeys.... rubbish..

No ones claiming that "humans were monkeys", rather that we evolved from primates, we are an entirely separate species.

[syed]

the fact remains that "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" is just that.. a "Theory" its not "Facts of Evolution"...

read here http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/

and since we know that Adam and Eve were humans then there is not a question of evolution from what Darwin suggests

as of today this theory has been rejected by many scientists.

he got much recognition because his views were non-confirming to the church and other scientists supported him.

[SBM]

May Allah forgive me but
no one has seen the picture of Adam and Eve and no one knows how they look. The Arabs of old time were large people and Darwin's theory talks about evolution but does not answer how life began?
Evolution might have some sense as may be evident when a White marries a Black or person of different geographical areas of the earth marries, their off springs look much different than their parents and that in itself is an evolution of new generation
Who knows what is on Mars, it there are Martians and they have different looks and they marry people of earth who knows how their off springs would look like?

[anajmi]

Islam is not against evolution and neither is evolution against Islam. I do believe that there are some humans who actually might've evolved from monkeys. There is an ayah in the quran where allah talks about punishing a group of people by turning them into monkeys.

002.065
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated!
SHAKIR: And certainly you have known those among you who exceeded the limits of the Sabbath, so We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

005.060
YUSUFALI: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
PICKTHAL: Shall I tell thee of a worse (case) than theirs for retribution with Allah? (Worse is the case of him) whom Allah hath cursed, him on whom His wrath hath fallen and of whose sort Allah hath turned some to apes and swine, and who serveth idols. Such are in worse plight and further astray from the plain road.
SHAKIR: Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.

007.166
YUSUFALI: When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."
PICKTHAL: So when they took pride in that which they had been forbidden, We said unto them: Be ye apes despised and loathed!
SHAKIR: Therefore when they revoltingly persisted in what they had been forbidden, We said to them: Be (as) apes, despised and hated.

This might be the evidence that Darwin used for his theory!!

[syed]

@omabharti
then you do not understand what Darwins theory is about
their basis is Humanism which rejects any god, and they say universe is all nature and humans are also part of it and they evolved as a natural selection

Quraan tells us that Adan and Eve are HUMANS.. do you think Allah does not know the difference between Humans and Monkeys ??
Allah could have said your father and mother were Apes... right ??

also Allah send Humans as prophets not apes.. and Adam was the first prophet...

i you start to think a little you will know the absurdity of your idea.
your example of white and black in nonsense, after marriage also they give birth to Humans not to any other species...

also you need to study a little more about universe, mars is a well known planet ... jsut google it and u will find a wealth of information that there is no life ...

your imagination is too wild my dear...


@anajmi
your belief and understanding is absurd
those who were turned into apes was a punishment.. it was not the evolution.. there is a difference.
also they were converted into Apes AND SWINES... so do u mean to say it is possible that even swines could have been our ancestors ?? astaghfirullah !

[anajmi]

Dear Brother syed,

You are new on this board and it will take you some time before you can figure out what I am posting. So I will try not to respond to your current enthusiasm.

[Humsafar]

Syed,

What anajmi is trying to tell you is that you both are singing from the same fundamentalist hymn sheet, so no need to contradict each other and dilute the message. Just curb your tablighi enthusiasm and follow his lead.

As for evolution, yes it is a theory but one with overwhelming scientific fact and research to back it up. The universe is evolving, not only in material form but also in consciousness. To deny the theory in favour of a fiction is to truly insult the intelligence Allah gave you.

[anajmi]

To deny the theory in favour of a fiction is to truly insult the intelligence Allah gave you.

Only people with conflicting beliefs and personal opinions can come up with such a contradictory statement. Only with intelligence given by a fictional being, is it possible to deny theory in favour of fiction. With intelligence given by "nature" one is unable to figure out where beliefs end and personal opinions begin!! These are the people whom I was referring to when I said that there are those who have evolved from monkeys.

[jawanmardan]

the fact remains that "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" is just that.. a "Theory" its not "Facts of Evolution"...

Brother Syed,
With respect your misinterpreting the term "theory", a scientific theory does not have the same definition as it's colloquial everyday use.
Evolution is a scientific fact in several respects. The theory part of evolution is in regard to theoretical predictive outcomes based on those observed facts, and informs our understanding of the mechanics of evolution.

Electromagnetism is a fact, the theory of electromagnetism is constantly being added to, and led Einstein to "Special Relativity", and gave us a lot of useful gadgets around our home. Your argument is akin to Ancient Greeks claiming "electromagnetism is just a theory", and lauding thunder and other phenomenon directly to Zeus.

[Humsafar]

These are the people whom I was referring to when I said that there are those who have evolved from monkeys.

Isn't it amazing that those who evolved from monkeys and those created by Allah ended up being the same (at least in physical form)? This truly is a miracle, except that the created ones now have the added burden of explaining away this miracle. Go for it, anajmi.

[syed]

@jawanmardan
bring forth those scientific facts that are there in favor of evolution.

electromagnetism is something that you can observe currently and then make facts and figures, is there anything that you can observe happening regarding evolution ?? or is it again only theory ??

big bang which happened millions of years back have been observed scientifically and its theory is being added to... does the same apply to evolution?

@Humsafar
the scientific facts are against evolution now, not in favor
read here
http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwini ... ssions.php

also i am not tablighi, however i am surely enthusiastic.. hope you guys dont mind

WBR
Syed

[jawanmardan]

big bang which happened millions of years back have been observed scientifically and its theory is being added to... does the same apply to evolution?

Brother Syed,
Actually yes, the Big Bang remains a theory, it is supported by observable data like background radiation and theorems like general relativity. Evolution is supported by observable phenomena, migration, variation in the reproduction, and cell mutation, the discovery of DNA has only strengthened the case.

Natural selection is supported by such cases as the White Peppered Moth, which used white moss as a home to camouflage itself from predators. During the Industrial revolution in Britain the white moss growing on trees became covered in black soot, which made the moth visible and thus vulnerable to predators like birds. Within several generations the White peppered moth population was decimated, but a new Black Peppered Moth developed which could now camouflage itself in the soot and soon outnumbered the white. By the end of the industrial revolution the air quality improved and the White Peppered Moth made a comeback. This process taught us natural selection is a two way process.

Brain scans in humans reveal the R-complex, or "reptilian brain" within humans responsible for our aggression and survival instincts, clearly inherited from our reptilian ancestors, it is the "oldest" parts of our brain which we share with reptiles and birds. These are just a meagre sampling of the overwhelming evidence available. Yet evolution is not yet complete we are gaining new knowledge as science progresses.

Why one chooses to accept the Big bang theory, but rejects evolution seems rather odd to me, care to explain?

[anajmi]

Isn't it amazing that those who evolved from monkeys and those created by Allah ended up being the same (at least in physical form)?

Humsafar,

You missed one important piece. Who created the monkeys? Did you read the ayahs that I had posted? Does that explain it?

[anajmi]

Brain scans in humans reveal the R-complex, or "reptilian brain" within humans responsible for our aggression and survival instincts, clearly inherited from our reptilian ancestors, it is the "oldest" parts of our brain which we share with reptiles and birds. These are just a meagre sampling of the overwhelming evidence available. Yet evolution is not yet complete we are gaining new knowledge as science progresses.

Why one chooses to accept the Big bang theory, but rejects evolution seems rather odd to me, care to explain?

jawanmardan,

Is it not possible that the creator or "nature" simply decided to give the same characteristics to both humans and reptiles? Why does one have to derive it from another? Can I say that reptiles of today have evolved from humans because they have the "human brain" characteristics of aggression and survival instincts?

[jawanmardan]

Is it not possible that the creator or "nature" simply decided to give the same characteristics to both humans and reptiles?

It's possible, but there isn't evidence to support it.

Why does one have to derive it from another?

The fossil record clearly shows that early life on Earth was much simpler than it is today. their has been a growth in complexity. Crustaceans and insects form an early period of life on earth, Fish and their brain structures evolve later and are more clearly defined, Reptilians and finally Mammals appear. In studying the brain we can see that all life on earth share the same building blocks, the human and other mammals have the core which is reptilian in it's construction and lies at the centre of or brain, the brain then seems to have continued to develop new outgrowths from that core as our brain size increased, Evolution is in keeping with the fossil record, and logical reasoning.

Can I say that reptiles of today have evolved from humans because they have the "human brain" characteristics of aggression and survival instincts?

To be fair we know very little about the brain, but reptile brains lack the developments beyond the core R-complex, they lack many mammalian characteristics that developed out beyond the core, those aspects that humans share with dogs, or rats, or dolphins. The other-side can't be said.

[anajmi]

jawanmardan,

Is it not possible that the creator or "nature" simply decided to give the same characteristics to both humans and reptiles?

It's possible, but there isn't evidence to support it.

You mean the fact that they both have the same characteristic isn't enough evidence? If you and my grand kids have the same eye color, would that mean they evolved from you or would that mean that you and them have the same eye color because nature or creator decided it that way? The most plausible explanation for the evolutionists in this case would be that it is simply a coincidence. You don't need evidence for coincidence now do you?

In studying the brain we can see that all life on earth share the same building blocks,

Correct. Because we have the same creator and he mentions the similarities in his creation in the quran.

Evolution is in keeping with the fossil record, and logical reasoning.

If an alien species were to find a tree and a pencil they would probably think that the pencil evolved from the tree or vice versa. Logical reasoning is only within the boundaries of human knowledge and understanding. If you do not have knowledge of a creator your logical reasoning does not take that parameter into consideration.

I believe in evolution. There is enough evidence to support it. But to say that humans evolved from reptiles simply because their brains have similar characteristics is stretching it a bit. Then evolutionists make it even more simple by saying that everything evolved from single cell organisms. Well duh!! sure they did. They have the same building blocks.

[syed]

Allah SWT made Adam as a human and sent him as a prophet on earth...

i still dont understand is this so difficult to understand ??

Cant Allah SWT have said i created an Ape or a Reptile or any xyz if he made that ???

do you guys even refute existence of Adam and his prophet hood on earth ??

Allah could have said we made a lizard and evolved him into a human and then made him a prophet and send him in earth ... right ??

am i really missing something big here or you guys are ??

[Humsafar]

I believe in evolution. There is enough evidence to support it. But to say that humans evolved from reptiles simply because their brains have similar characteristics is stretching it a bit. Then evolutionists make it even more simple by saying that everything evolved from single cell organisms. Well duh!! sure they did. They have the same building blocks.

You're dismissing this with sarcasm but nevertheless there's truth in it. Individually cells are simple building blocks, but when they come together, organise and interact they lead to complex functioning and behaviour - this is evolution in a nutshell. Nobody is saying that humans evolved from reptiles, there is no direct one to one connection between any two species. Evolution is a complex process drawn out over millions and millions of years. We are evolving all the time.

As a side note, I detect an attitude of contempt among "creationists" towards lower life - monkey, reptile, animal are considered as words of abuse. The whole discussion here is bogged down with "form" and outer manifestation. Truth is that at the most fundamental level we are all the same, animated by One consciousness. The only difference being that humans can become aware of this consciousness - and perhaps in this sense only they are special and perhaps that's why the Quran calls them ashraf ul makhlukaat.

[Humsafar]

Allah SWT made Adam as a human and sent him as a prophet on earth...
i still dont understand is this so difficult to understand ??

Your innocence is touching. Why it is difficult to understand? Let me guess, because there is no way of knowing that that actually happened.

As for Harun Yahya, pls don't inflict him on me. His time would be better spent if he tried "proving" creationism rather than refuting evolution.

[anajmi]

I detect an attitude of contempt among "creationists" towards lower life - monkey, reptile, animal are considered as words of abuse.

Think about this for a minute. This only applies while referring to other humans. For eg. I have never called a monkey - a snake or a dog nor have I ever referred to any dog as a monkey. So the attitude of contempt is not directed towards the animal.

[anajmi]

because there is no way of knowing that that actually happened.

Actually there is. Once you die, you will know for sure. Since people like yourself will never believe the living, you need to find out for yourself.

[syed]

big bang which happened millions of years back have been observed scientifically and its theory is being added to... does the same apply to evolution?

Natural selection is supported by such cases as the White Peppered Moth, which used white moss as a home to camouflage itself from predators. During the Industrial revolution in Britain the white moss growing on trees became covered in black soot, which made the moth visible and thus vulnerable to predators like birds. Within several generations the White peppered moth population was decimated, but a new Black Peppered Moth developed which could now camouflage itself in the soot and soon outnumbered the white. By the end of the industrial revolution the air quality improved and the White Peppered Moth made a comeback. This process taught us natural selection is a two way process.

the example you gave is an example of ADAPTATION not EVOLUTION, the white moss remained what it was, it didnt evolved into a fire throwing dragon to protect itself, they just adapted to a different surrounding..

bring forth a better example, this doesn't hold water.

WBR
Syed

[syed]

Allah SWT made Adam as a human and sent him as a prophet on earth...
i still dont understand is this so difficult to understand ??

Your innocence is touching. Why it is difficult to understand? Let me guess, because there is no way of knowing that that actually happened.

As for Harun Yahya, pls don't inflict him on me. His time would be better spent if he tried "proving" creationism rather than refuting evolution.

Ok, please tell me your beliefs then i am assuming you to be a muslim who have soem misconceptions, and this is how i answer you, let me know your basic faith and then i will know who i am replying to .

your nick "Humsafar" doesn't shed much light

there is nothing to prove in creationism, its all around you also only and atheist can think in the way you are hinting here, if you are an atheist then i will reply differently...
i am not quoting harun yahya i am quoting from Quraan and then deducting results using common sense...

WBR
Syed

[jawanmardan]

it didnt evolved into a fire throwing dragon to protect itself

I'll leave the fire throwing dragons to creationism. By ignoring and dismissing every scientific breakthrough in support of evolution your are merely presenting a mythology, not science.

Brother confused, may I suggest you read up on the evidence in support of evolution by scientists before making a decision.

[Humsafar]

Ok, please tell me your beliefs ...

We are talking about empirical truths here, personal beliefs do not matter.

there is nothing to prove in creationism ...

In that case there is nothing to talk about.

[Humsafar]

Think about this for a minute. This only applies while referring to other humans. For eg. I have never called a monkey - a snake or a dog nor have I ever referred to any dog as a monkey. So the attitude of contempt is not directed towards the animal.

Nice play of words. Other than that it amounts to no more than monkey business.

[syed]

Ok, please tell me your beliefs ...

We are talking about empirical truths here, personal beliefs do not matter.

give an example of what you have observed in evolution empirically, bring forth those points, not theories.

also faith does matter, that is where is the basis of your observations. if you have faith in Quraan you will form that as a base of your observations and you will validate those observations which can be verified against quraan and reject which are in conflict.

that is why i ask your beliefs and i will reply you accordingly, because an atheist or an idol worshiper will have a different basis then quraan, so i will have to reply accordingly.

WBR
Syed

[SBM]

because an atheist or an idol worshiper will have a different basis then quraan, so i will have to reply accordingly.

Syed why go that far even MUSLIM UMMAH has done the same injustice to teaching of Quran. Every Muallah or self created experts on Islam like you have different basic understanding of Quraan than a true learned scholar of Islam