sajda for nabi?

[incredible]

Bismillah....


there are 2 incidents in Quraan where Alllah talks about angels and human being doing sajda for nabi...


1)to adam (as)

2)to yusuf (as)


what does bohra fiqh have to say about it?

[S. Insaf]

This what Dr. Asghar Ali Engineer says in "Reformists and their religious beliefs"

It is also important to note that authoritarian culture promotes, among other things, intolerance and rigidity. The reformists, on the other hand, believe in tolerance and coexistence with different sects and sub sects of Islam, on one hand, and, with different religions of the world, on the other. They reject the concept of rigidity and intolerance. They also uphold the concepts of democracy and human rights in secular and political matters. This is direct result of rejection of authoritarian culture.

For more than quarter of a century the reformists have struggled hard for their democratic and human rights while upholding their religious beliefs. For them democracy and human rights are quite fundamental to human dignity and Allah has upheld human dignity in the holy Qur'an when it declared "And We have honoured children of Adam" (17:70). And it will be seen that the authoritarian culture denies human dignity which Allah has accorded to every human being. Thus the reformists uphold the Qur'anic teachings when struggling for human dignity which can be ensured only by respecting the right to freedom.

This, in a way, is a fundamental difference between the orthodox and the reformists. The reformists believe that Allah's commandment to mala'ik (i.e.angels) to bow before Adam was to bow before human dignity. Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being. The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i).

Needless to say the reformists totally and categorically reject this un-Islamic practice of bowing before any human being. Syedna Qadi N'uman has clearly said in his Kitab al-Himmah that the practice of sajdah before imam only amounts to what he calls taqbil al-ard i.e. kissing the earth before imam. But the da'i today insists that it is worshipful bowing before him. What Imam himself did not claim a da'i is claiming.

[admirer]

Mr Saif,

Your post doens't answer incredible's question!

[Muslim First]

Your post doens't answer incredible's question!

Try this
http://www.islamhelpline.com/view_answers.asp?QAID=126

and this
http://www.islamhelpline.com/view_answers.asp?QAID=128

[aziz]

The orthodox are made to perform sajdah before the da'i and the da'i claims that it is sajda-i-'ubudiyyah (i.e. worshipful bowing before the da'i) and not sajda-i-t'azim (i.e. respectful bowing before the da'i),,,,,,,Human beings are above angels as they carry the burden of Allah's amanah (trust). Otherwise sajdah is only for Allah and not for any human being.



where has the dai ever claimed what you are stating above,and where in the quran or any other dawoodi bohra books is it stated that humans are above angels,,and what burdens of allah do humans carry that angels cannot

[Safiuddin]

This viewing stand looks remarkably like the Kaaba. Curioser and curioser.


http://malumaat.com/adv/akhbar/item/1289.html

[porus]

... where in the quran or any other dawoodi bohra books is it stated that humans are above angels,,and what burdens of allah do humans carry that angels cannot

Quran 33:72 states that the trust (amanah) which Allah offered to all his creation (and that includes angels) was refused by all except human beings. While Allah clearly states that human beings took on too big a burden of trust unknowingly, He does not place a heavy burden on any human being without giving him the means to endure it.

Quran 17:70 states that Allah has preferred humans over other creatures in His creation. We can infer that Allah has singled humans out for His mercy, primarily because of his free will and the capacity to recognize his Creator.

As far as sajda to Nabi is concerned, was Adam a nabi when Allah asked angels to prostrate to him? He was not. There is no ayat in Quran commanding humans to do sajda to another human. In fact, the command is NOT to do sajda to anyone except Allah. And the command for sajda to Adam is for angels, not for humans.

In Quran 12:100, interpreters state that Yusuf's father, Nabi Yaqub, did sujood to his son Yusuf. But interpreters are all wrong. If they intentionally performed sajda to Yusuf, Quran would have stated "yasjudoo li-yusufa". But Quran says that they fell "sujjadan" in front of Yusuf.

Yaqub, as a Nabi, would have known Allah's command with regard to sujood to anyone other than Allah. Infallible prophet would not err and go against that command. Interpretation by one of the great mufassireen of past is that Yaqub spontaneously fell in sujood to Allah in acknowledgment of Allah's mercy and glory.

Quran explains itself and is very clear that no sajda to any nabi or a human is allowed.

[aqs]

Interpretation by one of the great mufassireen of past is that Yaqub spontaneously fell in sujood to Allah in acknowledgment of Allah's mercy and glory.

i have been saying this for quite some time but people want to allege that we give sajada to Syedna(tus) and not to Allah

[porus]

Brother aqs,

The difference is in the intentionality. Mufassir has said that Yaqub spontaneously fell in sujood to Allah. It just so happened that Yusuf was near him. That is his interpretation which I have sympathy with.

Qadambosi is a ritual with intention to do sujood to Sayedna. This is reinforced by the madeh 'Sajda tujhe wajib hai' in praise of Sayedna. When Bohras line up for qadambosi of Sayedna, no one watching it would mistake that as an act of spontaneous sujood to Allah.

[aqs]

Brother aqs,

The difference is in the intentionality. Mufassir has said that Yaqub spontaneously fell in sujood to Allah. It just so happened that Yusuf was near him. That is his interpretation which I have sympathy with.

Qadambosi is a ritual with intention to do sujood to Sayedna. This is reinforced by the madeh 'Sajda tujhe wajib hai' in praise of Sayedna. When Bohras line up for qadambosi of Sayedna, no one watching it would mistake that as an act of spontaneous sujood to Allah.

Br. Porus,

again we are back to square one, where i will tell you about kitabul Himma and Risalatul tambiul gafeleen and you will quote from Quran that sajada is only for Allah. and then you will have few other supporters who will say as you have quoted from Quran so your claim has more weight and my only defence will be Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

[Humsafar]

Aqs, do you accept that any other book or tradition can trump the Quran? If your answer is yes then you're theology is no longer within the purview of Quranic teachings. If your answer is no then you'll have to accept that the sajda to Dai (no matter how you justify it) is un-Islamic.

[ghulam muhammed]

This viewing stand looks remarkably like the Kaaba. Curioser and curioser.


http://malumaat.com/adv/akhbar/item/1289.html

The photos have been removed and cannot be viewed, when you click the link it shows 'Alert, restricted area, to view one has to login'

[Safiuddin]

Oh that sucks. Just a day or so ago you didn't have to login. The shieks are lagging.

[aqs]

Aqs, do you accept that any other book or tradition can trump the Quran? If your answer is yes then you're theology is no longer within the purview of Quranic teachings. If your answer is no then you'll have to accept that the sajda to Dai (no matter how you justify it) is un-Islamic.

Humsafar,

you missed the last line of my post

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

[profastian]

... where in the quran or any other dawoodi bohra books is it stated that humans are above angels,,and what burdens of allah do humans carry that angels cannot

Quran 33:72 states that the trust (amanah) which Allah offered to all his creation (and that includes angels) was refused by all except human beings. While Allah clearly states that human beings took on too big a burden of trust unknowingly, He does not place a heavy burden on any human being without giving him the means to endure it.

Quran 17:70 states that Allah has preferred humans over other creatures in His creation. We can infer that Allah has singled humans out for His mercy, primarily because of his free will and the capacity to recognize his Creator.

As far as sajda to Nabi is concerned, was Adam a nabi when Allah asked angels to prostrate to him? He was not. There is no ayat in Quran commanding humans to do sajda to another human. In fact, the command is NOT to do sajda to anyone except Allah. And the command for sajda to Adam is for angels, not for humans.

In Quran 12:100, interpreters state that Yusuf's father, Nabi Yaqub, did sujood to his son Yusuf. But interpreters are all wrong. If they intentionally performed sajda to Yusuf, Quran would have stated "yasjudoo li-yusufa". But Quran says that they fell "sujjadan" in front of Yusuf.

Yaqub, as a Nabi, would have known Allah's command with regard to sujood to anyone other than Allah. Infallible prophet would not err and go against that command. Interpretation by one of the great mufassireen of past is that Yaqub spontaneously fell in sujood to Allah in acknowledgment of Allah's mercy and glory.

Quran explains itself and is very clear that no sajda to any nabi or a human is allowed.

Where is the command?

[makberi]

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

[/quote]

if the quran can be interpreted by only haq na sahib y reveal it to the general population....so that we read it like parrots!!!! without understanding the words......

[SBM]

^
to add to that, if only Haq na Saheb can interpret, then why they do not reveal their interpretation in general Majaalis instead of in Taawil Sabaq which you can not reveal because of your oath. Why so much secrecy for learning and understanding Quran
when Prophet said go to China if you need to learn.Are not Kothari dis-obeying the command of Prophet and Allah by keeping secrets of Taawil Sabaks

[Humsafar]

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

That's very convenient. But two questions: 1) by what authority does he become the "Haq na saheb"? 2) Whether it is 700 or 7000 ways, can his interpretation still contradict the zaahir meaning of the Quran?

[profastian]

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

That's very convenient. But two questions: 1) by what authority does he become the "Haq na saheb"? 2) Whether it is 700 or 7000 ways, can his interpretation still contradict the zaahir meaning of the Quran?

1) The authority of all the Bohras. You guys are more welcome not to consider him as Haq na Saheb. If you do not want to believe in his interpretation, then don't. And talking about authority, by what authority did
the Prophet Mohammad became a Prophet? The authority is "Ilm". You can surely refute the ilm, as many did in the time of the Prophet.

2) No, it can't "contradict", but it can be tangential. Sometimes the Zaahir meaning is completely different from the Taawil (the stories of the Prophets is an example, you surely don't believe that Younis spent days in the stomach of a fish, or that Moosa's Staff became a serpent in reality, or maybe you are dumb enough to) and sometimes the meaning can be easily deducible.

[Humsafar]

The authority of all the Bohras.

That's fine, really. But that makes him a guru, a pir, a miracle-maker like so many others who derives their authority and status from the faith of the people and NOT from a doctrine, NOT from the Holy text and tradition. In a way, if you come to think of it, is better to be a peoples' guru than to be merely a religious figure sanctioned by dry, ancient text. So it is only proper that Bohras delcare themselves as a guru-worsipping cult.

If you do not want to believe in his interpretation, then don't.

Is it a matter of choice? And what particular interpretation are we talking about - that it is okay to do sajda to him which is in direct contradiction of the Quran?

And talking about authority, by what authority did the Prophet Mohammad became a Prophet? The authority is "Ilm". You can surely refute the ilm, as many did in the time of the Prophet.

Why is it that every time the Dai is questioned you guys compare him with the Porphet, the Imams etc. The Dai can't even begin to compare with the great religious figures of the past. And do I have to remind you that the Prophet derives his authority from the Quran? The Quran declares him as the messenger of Allah. As for the "authority is ilm" is just plain rhetoric. Even so, what kind ilm is it that makes the Dai comfortable with humans doing sajda to him?

No, it can't "contradict", but it can be tangential.

The Quran says no sajda to humans. The Dai allows sajda to himself. Please explain what is tangential about it.

[anajmi]

you surely don't believe that Younis spent days in the stomach of a fish, or that Moosa's Staff became a serpent in reality

I am not sure who is teaching you the Quran, but whoever is, he is a fraud. Whoever, is teaching you that these things didn't happen in reality is a liar and a follower of the shaitan.

[danishwar]

Quran explains itself and is very clear that no sajda to any nabi or a human is allowed.

Where is the command?[/quote]

Ameerul mumineen Hazrat Ali karamallah wajhu, who was the best follower and scholar of Quran neither did or asked anyone to do sajda.
was it ok ,he must have done this before the honored prophet[saw] .If this is the only way to show respect Imam hasan or Imam hussein must have done sajda to his father or other elders like their mother .

[seeker110]

Its funny the man who will take people to jannah with his hands cannot walk by himself.

[incredible]

Its funny the man who will take people to jannah with his hands cannot walk by himself.

dont talk nonsense...even moses and abhraham, Muhammed(saw) use to take walking stick.

[Conscíous]

aqs....


Just like Al Zulfiqar predicted..
Once you are cornered with tough questions..You'll run with your "tail= beard" between your legs...
maybe that's the reason you are not to be seen huh??

Are you going to come up with some lam excuse for not answering Humsafar huh??

[aqs]

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

if the quran can be interpreted by only haq na sahib y reveal it to the general population....so that we read it like parrots!!!! without understanding the words......[/quote]

did i say ONLY, i said IF haq na saheb wants he can. Quran was not revealed to general public, it was revealed to Prophet(saw)

^
to add to that, if only Haq na Saheb can interpret, then why they do not reveal their interpretation in general Majaalis instead of in Taawil Sabaq which you can not reveal because of your oath. Why so much secrecy for learning and understanding Quran
when Prophet said go to China if you need to learn.Are not Kothari dis-obeying the command of Prophet and Allah by keeping secrets of Taawil Sabaks

we have been on this road before.
you want every thing to be dished out on a open forum, and this is not going to happen. their are ways to acquire knowledge and if you dont follow the guideline you will not get it. This has been the way since Prophet(saw). Knowledge was always imparted according to the level of group. Moula Ali(as) didnt reveal Taawil in zahir khutbas it was always to a selected few.

Go to sabaks and you will know what he(saw) meant by China, do you believe he was talking about the country when as a prophet he will have all the worldly knowledge(or you also believe like some on this board that nauzobillah he(saw) was Ummi(illiterate))

[aqs]

Quran can be interpreted by Haq na saheb(you dont agree on this term also) in as many as 700 ways.

That's very convenient. But two questions: 1) by what authority does he become the "Haq na saheb"? 2) Whether it is 700 or 7000 ways, can his interpretation still contradict the zaahir meaning of the Quran?

1) by what authority does he become the "Haq na saheb"?

by the authority of nass, since Adam(as) the next Haq na saheb has been selected through Nass.

2) Whether it is 700 or 7000 ways, can his interpretation still contradict the zaahir meaning of the Quran?

zahir and tawil can be two different thing but it will not contradict each other.

[aqs]

you surely don't believe that Younis spent days in the stomach of a fish, or that Moosa's Staff became a serpent in reality

I am not sure who is teaching you the Quran, but whoever is, he is a fraud. Whoever, is teaching you that these things didn't happen in reality is a liar and a follower of the shaitan.

please tell it to Humsafar and co. who dont believe prophet can perform miracles.

[anajmi]

aqs,

I have had a lot of discussions with Humsafar in the past and I am sure I will in the future. That post was in reply to crap posted about the Quran by those who are supposed to follow the "living quran". They are being taught junk.

[profastian]

Why is it that every time the Dai is questioned you guys compare him with the Porphet, the Imams etc. The Dai can't even begin to compare with the great religious figures of the past. And do I have to remind you that the Prophet derives his authority from the Quran? The Quran declares him as the messenger of Allah. As for the "authority is ilm" is just plain rhetoric. Even so, what kind ilm is it that makes the Dai comfortable with humans doing sajda to him?

The Prophet-hood came before the Quran and Quran came through the Prophet. How can the prophet derive authority from the Quran. How do you know he didn't just make it all up?