The True Imam - How would you verify?

[zinger]

Guys,

I am simply trying to tell you that you can believe in anything you like. Just do not call it "Islamic" belief. If you call it Islamic, then I will ask for proof from Quran and Sunnah which you do not have. For eg. if someone asks you to prove that fasting is a part of Islamic belief, you will be able to show the ayah from Surah Al-Baqara commanding the believers to fast. This is the proof that we are referring to. It is a matter of faith, but based upon the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Some of us are too dumb to understand this.

But I am glad that you have chosen to refer to these non-Islamic beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs. Now, I do not need any proof as it is a matter of your faith which is different than my faith. There are some smart people on this forum like zinger, alam, progticide, haqniwaat etc who understand the difference and choose to refer to them as "Fatimid" beliefs but there are some not so smart people like anajmi, humanbeing, truth seeker100 and others who always confuse the two and have to be reminded again and again that one is not the same as the other. Hope that straightens out the "circular" problem that we have been facing.

CONGRATULATIONS. YOU FINALLY ACCEPTED IT

now please do accept that Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic belief and hope to redeem yourself in the eyes of Allah for having abused fellow Muslims all your life.

[zinger]

And BTW, Humanbeing is smart but just in conflict and denial all the time.

on one hand he wants to believe the Islamic Fatimid beliefs and on the on the other hand needs to be proven the same to be able to believe it.

HB my humble submission to u is this. TAKE A STAND.

do what your heart tells you is right.

If you think this belief system is wrong then move out of it, there is no amount of proof that can convince you. take my word for it, you will be happier. just dont become like Anajmi who moved out but still cant seem to let go and hence keeps hanging around here all the time

[truth seeker100]

Guys,

I am simply trying to tell you that you can believe in anything you like. Just do not call it "Islamic" belief. If you call it Islamic, then I will ask for proof from Quran and Sunnah which you do not have. For eg. if someone asks you to prove that fasting is a part of Islamic belief, you will be able to show the ayah from Surah Al-Baqara commanding the believers to fast. This is the proof that we are referring to. It is a matter of faith, but based upon the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet (saw). Some of us are too dumb to understand this.

But I am glad that you have chosen to refer to these non-Islamic beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs. Now, I do not need any proof as it is a matter of your faith which is different than my faith. There are some smart people on this forum like zinger, alam, progticide, haqniwaat etc who understand the difference and choose to refer to them as "Fatimid" beliefs but there are some not so smart people like anajmi, humanbeing, truth seeker100 and others who always confuse the two and have to be reminded again and again that one is not the same as the other. Hope that straightens out the "circular" problem that we have been facing.

CONGRATULATIONS. YOU FINALLY ACCEPTED IT

now please do accept that Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic belief and hope to redeem yourself in the eyes of Allah for having abused fellow Muslims all your life.

well mr zinger bhai now show us proof how Fatimid beliefs are islamic?

[truth seeker100]

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

hajr e aswad is just a stone too is it not???????

no muslim worships a stone. muslims don't worship the kaaba. learn your facts about islam first

[anajmi]

now please do accept that Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic belief

And you were actually thinking that I am dumb?

You read my post but understood nothing. There is a reason why you people have to refer to these beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs. It is Allah's mercy on us that He has forever kept Islamic beliefs pure of corruption. Centuries have gone by but you still cannot call them Islamic beliefs. You have to refer to them as "Fatimid" beliefs.

Infact, if you consider the way in which you took portions of my post and came at a conclusion suiting your own beliefs, that is precisely the way in which "Fatimid" beliefs have been created in the first place. They take a portion of one ayah and then another portion of a different ayah, change the words around a little bit and voila - "Fatimid" beliefs!!!!

[humanbeing]

on one hand he wants to believe the Islamic Fatimid beliefs and on the on the other hand needs to be proven the same to be able to believe it.

Exactly !

In my opinion, Fatimid beleifs are not represented completely. As Few members on this forum suggests ( Progiticide, Adam, pro-kotharies) to visit nearest Kothari Mullah to learn about complete Fatimid beliefs. They preach and practice such twisted form of Fatimid belief it is frustrating to attend their melodramatic mind control technique to drill down their agendas in gullible listeners. Even if you take their preaching at face value and proceed with understanding, one can see kotharies do not practice what they preach.

Their sabaks can be debated even by a layman with an average IQ, common sense and conscience! but the problem is the subtle threat with which they control the sabaks and general community behavior.

HB my humble submission to u is this. TAKE A STAND. ….do what your heart tells you is right. …..
If you think this belief system is wrong then move out of it, there is no amount of proof that can convince you. take my word for it, you will be happier. …..

Yes I have taken a STAND of common sense and awareness ! Belief system is not wrong. The implementers are wrong ! I am happier questioning these morons of their treachery and it is fun to look at their embarrassed face of dancing disgust when questioned in their own preaching and lack of practice.

[truth seeker100]

SKQ swears on Quran and says Imam is present and he is living in real world, now whom shall one believe in?

Mazoon or some online forum?

as far as I am getting good environment for my children and respect in real world, I am good to believe in Imam and his dai.

there is no other community like bohra.

alawits,wahabis,sunnis and progressive are trying hard to defame bohras, but good thing is they dont stand any where in real world, and bohras are still enjoying goodness and prosperity in real world.

are you slow in the head? bohras are a laughingstock. they live like slaves. they are slaves of that fraud muffu. they are not enjoying goodness! they are just slaves. and I would rather believe an online page that shows proof from the quran then your stupid bohra mails who are fake muslims

[New]

The best thing to do to HasmiNooor is to ignore him. Let him bury his head in the sand like an ostrich. There is no cure for his illness.

[zinger]

now please do accept that Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic belief

And you were actually thinking that I am dumb?

You read my post but understood nothing. There is a reason why you people have to refer to these beliefs as "Fatimid" beliefs. It is Allah's mercy on us that He has forever kept Islamic beliefs pure of corruption. Centuries have gone by but you still cannot call them Islamic beliefs. You have to refer to them as "Fatimid" beliefs.

Infact, if you consider the way in which you took portions of my post and came at a conclusion suiting your own beliefs, that is precisely the way in which "Fatimid" beliefs have been created in the first place. They take a portion of one ayah and then another portion of a different ayah, change the words around a little bit and voila - "Fatimid" beliefs!!!!

ive learnt it from you bro. how many times have you twisted words and selectively plucked them to use them?? hmm??? pot calling the kettle black.

[zinger]

hajr e aswad is just a stone too is it not???????

no muslim worships a stone. muslims don't worship the kaaba. learn your facts about islam first

Ok, would you say we revere it then? we look in the direction of the Kabba when praying do we not? so please explain this to me. What exactly is the relavance/position of the Kabba

[bohrikaka]

I have read somewhere on this post that Mr. Porus made the statement that Imam Tayyeb AS was probably assassinated while he was in infant. From what I have read in Tuhfat Al Qulub is that Imam Aamir AS had given infant Imam AS in the care of his confidant Ibn Madyan. He had also informed Queen Arwa of his birth and designation of nass and the same is mentioned by Syedna Hatim QR.The same is also said by Idris Imaduddin in Uyun. So was there contact with Imam Tayyeb AS after that or Ibn Madyan ?

[truth seeker100]

mr zinger stop trying to change the subject. I asked u first to show me proof from the quran that dai is needed for salvation. answer that , then I will answer your question

[anajmi]

ive learnt it from you bro

Unfortunately for you, you are only capable of learning all the wrong things.

[zinger]

ive learnt it from you bro

Unfortunately for you, you are only capable of learning all the wrong things.

that my friend, is because you can only teach wrong things, there are no right things that you can teach!

All you can teach is hatred, intolerance and arrogance towards fellow Muslims because they do not agree to your view of Islam. So you know what that makes you!

[zinger]

mr zinger stop trying to change the subject. I asked u first to show me proof from the quran that dai is needed for salvation. answer that , then I will answer your question

Hey buddy,
No. 1 - you are the one who changed the subject, i just answered to you. so blame yourself for diverting the topic. See below
No. 2 - In your excitement to try and catch me, you tripped on your little feet, and unfortunately, SBM bhai instead of supporting you, fell down the same trap as you and liking your post. I said "hajr e aswad" and you, like a snake, changed it to Kabba

Now, you need to tell me why do we kiss the Hajr E Aswad ok!!!

Waiting for your answer and BTW, since i learnt it from you, im gonna troll you like you troll others with this question. so quickly, start your google work like a good boy

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?
Postby truth seeker100 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:55 pm

zinger wrote:
alam wrote:

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

[anajmi]

Now that you have accepted me as your teacher, learn this, everything you have learned from your Dai is a bunch of bull. My view of islam doesnt require me to label them as najmidi beliefs. I can call them Islamic beliefs. And since you are now learning from me, its time you learn Islamic beliefs instead of other beliefs.

[zinger]

Now that you have accepted me as your teacher, learn this, everything you have learned from your Dai is a bunch of bull. My view of islam doesnt require me to label them as najmidi beliefs. I can call them Islamic beliefs. And since you are now learning from me, its time you learn Islamic beliefs instead of other beliefs.

Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic Beliefs.
If you chose not accept them, then that is your problem, not mine.
Your view of Islam, sorry to say, doesnt qualify as any kind of belief, if all that your view teaches is hatred against fellow Muslims.
So before i learn Ismalic beliefs from you, you need to learn the beliefs of humanity before anything else

[humanbeing]

Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic Beliefs.

In line with Fatimid belief to be subset of Islamic belief (If I understand you correctly). Can anyone on the forum advise when did the Fatimid belief came into existence ? Was it started by Prophet or any particular Imam thereafter ?

whenever Fatimid belief came into existence, what does it regulate about conduct of Imam ? is he required to be present or hidden ? My question is not with existence of Imam, but its perpetual hiddenness as a requirement / basis of Fatimid belief.

I am not asking a believer to prove their faith in a particular belief. The answer is subjective as it depends from person to person. It cannot be quantified.

I am asking the methodology / guidelines of the Fatimid belief. Be it inquisitive, investigative, critical or scholarly. Considering that purity of knowledge is dependent on the source. So I asked Kothari Mullahs to explain the Fatimid belief. They did with all jazzmatazz around it, fine ! acceptable, now the concern is, they are not following their own belief system. They are contradicting themselves, they are manipulating their own words, teaching and preachings !

Misaaq and Taiqyet are strong pillars of the Fatimid belief. My questions are on its history, relevance, Utility, advantage and disadvantages. These pillars are preached and practiced differently by Kothari priesthood. I would have accepted these beliefs with no questions asked, If I saw the coherence from preach to practice by its source.

[zinger]

Fatimid Beliefs are in line with Islamic Beliefs.

In line with Fatimid belief to be subset of Islamic belief (If I understand you correctly).YES, YOU UNDERSTAND ME CORRECTLY. FATIMID BELIEFS ARE LINE AND HENCE A SUBSET OF ISLAMIC BELIEFS Can anyone on the forum advise when did the Fatimid belief came into existence ? Was it started by Prophet or any particular Imam thereafter OH COME ON MAN, STOP BEING SO NAIVE. ITS QUITE OBVIOUS FATIMID BELIEFS WERE STARTED AFTER THE PROPHET, BY SUBSEQUENT IMAMS. THERE WERE NO SHIAS AND SUNNIS ALSO DURING THE TIME OF THE PROPHET (SAW). NOT SURE WHICH IMAM THOUGH, CAUSE THIS WAS THE FATIMID DYNASTY. NOT SURE WHY YOU EVEN ASKED THIS QUESTION TO BEGIN WITH

whenever Fatimid belief came into existence, what does it regulate about conduct of Imam ? is he required to be present or hidden ? My question is not with existence of Imam, but its perpetual hiddenness as a requirement / basis of Fatimid belief. THE SHIA IMAM, NOT JUST THE FATIMID IMAM IS HIDDEN. DONT PUT THIS ON THE DOORSTEP OF THE FATIMID BELIEF. THE IMAM OF SHIA'S ALL OVER, IS THE SAME, EXCEPT OFCOURSE THE ISMAILIS, FOR WHOM THE IMAM IS VISIBLE. AS FOR PERPETUAL HIDDENNESS AS A REQUIREMENT, I AM NOT EQUIPPED TO ANSWER THAT. THERE MUST BE SOME REASON WHICH IS BEYOND YOUR AND MINE UNDERSTANDING

I am not asking a believer to prove their faith in a particular belief. The answer is subjective as it depends from person to person. It cannot be quantified.

I am asking the methodology / guidelines of the Fatimid belief. Be it inquisitive, investigative, critical or scholarly. Considering that purity of knowledge is dependent on the source THEN BY ALL MEANS, DONT ASK THE KOTHARI MULLAH SINCE YOU DISTRUST THEM SO MUCH, ASK A SHIA SCHOLAR OR A SHIA MULLA OR A QAZI. So I asked Kothari Mullahs to explain the Fatimid belief. They did with all jazzmatazz around it, fine ! acceptable, now the concern is, they are not following their own belief system. They are contradicting themselves, they are manipulating their own words, teaching and preachings ! AGREED WITH YOU ON THIS

Misaaq and Taiqyet are strong pillars of the Fatimid belief. My questions are on its history, relevance, Utility, advantage and disadvantages. These pillars are preached and practiced differently by Kothari priesthood AGREED WITH YOU ON THIS. I would have accepted these beliefs with no questions asked, If I saw the coherence from preach to practice by its source.

[truth seeker100]

MR ZINGER SHOW ME PROOF HOW YOUR FATIMID BELIFS ARE IN LINE WITH ISLAMIC BELIEFS

[truth seeker100]

zinger we kiss the stone not worship it.

[truth seeker100]

mr zinger stop trying to change the subject. I asked u first to show me proof from the quran that dai is needed for salvation. answer that , then I will answer your question

Hey buddy,
No. 1 - you are the one who changed the subject, i just answered to you. so blame yourself for diverting the topic. See below
No. 2 - In your excitement to try and catch me, you tripped on your little feet, and unfortunately, SBM bhai instead of supporting you, fell down the same trap as you and liking your post. I said "hajr e aswad" and you, like a snake, changed it to Kabba

Now, you need to tell me why do we kiss the Hajr E Aswad ok!!!

Waiting for your answer and BTW, since i learnt it from you, im gonna troll you like you troll others with this question. so quickly, start your google work like a good boy

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?
Postby truth seeker100 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:55 pm

zinger wrote:
alam wrote:

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

you never answered me. you still haven't shown me proof from the quran. so I suggest you show me proof first, before you answer any questions

[JC]

Abdes/Amtes have funny way of justifying things they do ................ if you kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE ............... if you can do tawaf of Kabaa you can do tawaf of graves of TS and MB ................ if you can bow to Allah, you can bow to Dai ................... if you can have Nabi, you can have Wasee .............. and if you can have Wasee, you can have Imam, if you can have Imam, you can have Dai ................... if you can pray Frad and Sunnah, you can pray x-numbers of Rakaa for TS, MB and MS ............... if Nabi showed miracles, Dai can show miracles too ................ WHY NOT?? where will this end?? This is really pathetic way of justifying WRONGS .........

[fustrate_Bohra]

I am not sure about imam existence but one thing i can definetly say that THERE IS NO CONNECTION BETWEEN IMAM AND CURRENT DAI.

Infact the connection has been broken from our first corrupt dai whoever be.

[zinger]

zinger we kiss the stone not worship it.

why do you kiss it? do you kiss it because it taste nice or to venerate it? kissing it is the same as worshipping it. if you looked at it and moved on, then its "just looking at it". but the moment you push and shove to kiss it, it becomes more than just "kissing" it.

give me a good reason why you need to kiss the stone?

[zinger]

Hey buddy,
No. 1 - you are the one who changed the subject, i just answered to you. so blame yourself for diverting the topic. See below
No. 2 - In your excitement to try and catch me, you tripped on your little feet, and unfortunately, SBM bhai instead of supporting you, fell down the same trap as you and liking your post. I said "hajr e aswad" and you, like a snake, changed it to Kabba

Now, you need to tell me why do we kiss the Hajr E Aswad ok!!!

Waiting for your answer and BTW, since i learnt it from you, im gonna troll you like you troll others with this question. so quickly, start your google work like a good boy

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?
Postby truth seeker100 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:55 pm

zinger wrote:
alam wrote:

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

you never answered me. you still haven't shown me proof from the quran. so I suggest you show me proof first, before you answer any questions

i havent asked you any questions champ. you are the one who is asking them. i dont want any answers from you becuase you dont have any to give. As to Fatimid beliefs, i dont need to prove anything to you.

[zinger]

Abdes/Amtes have funny way of justifying things they do ................ if you kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE ............... if you can do tawaf of Kabaa you can do tawaf of graves of TS and MB ................ if you can bow to Allah, you can bow to Dai ................... if you can have Nabi, you can have Wasee .............. and if you can have Wasee, you can have Imam, if you can have Imam, you can have Dai ................... if you can pray Frad and Sunnah, you can pray x-numbers of Rakaa for TS, MB and MS ............... if Nabi showed miracles, Dai can show miracles too ................ WHY NOT?? where will this end?? This is really pathetic way of justifying WRONGS .........

See JC, that is where you are sooooooo wrong

i never said if you can kiss Hajr-e-Aswad, you can kiss ANY STONE. i only said this in responce to what one of your buddies said about the stone in Sidhpur (which by the way, i personally dont endorse, it reeks too much of finding hidden murti and creating a temple around it, to me)

As for the rest of your ramble, you are free to arrive at your own conclusions

[zinger]

Hey buddy,
No. 1 - you are the one who changed the subject, i just answered to you. so blame yourself for diverting the topic. See below
No. 2 - In your excitement to try and catch me, you tripped on your little feet, and unfortunately, SBM bhai instead of supporting you, fell down the same trap as you and liking your post. I said "hajr e aswad" and you, like a snake, changed it to Kabba

Now, you need to tell me why do we kiss the Hajr E Aswad ok!!!

Waiting for your answer and BTW, since i learnt it from you, im gonna troll you like you troll others with this question. so quickly, start your google work like a good boy

Re: The True Imam - How would you verify?
Postby truth seeker100 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:55 pm

zinger wrote:
alam wrote:

Like haqniwaat and you mentioned, it is simply a matter of faith and as Dawoodi Bohras, we DO NOT need to justify articles of our faith, not to Bohras who dont believe in it and CERTAINLY NOT to non Bohras.

so mr zinger if tomorrow bohras start worshipping a stone or an idol as a matter of faith, will you say that " we DO NOT need to justify this"?

you never answered me. you still haven't shown me proof from the quran. so I suggest you show me proof first, before you answer any questions

oh, and by the way, i never claimed that the dai is needed for salvation. you are barking up the wrong tree. ask this to the person who has said it

[truth seeker100]

zinger we kiss the stone not worship it.

why do you kiss it? do you kiss it because it taste nice or to venerate it? kissing it is the same as worshipping it. if you looked at it and moved on, then its "just looking at it". but the moment you push and shove to kiss it, it becomes more than just "kissing" it.

give me a good reason why you need to kiss the stone?

so mr zinger when somebody kisses their loved ones are they worshipping it or doing it out of love? kissing the stone is not a command by the quran, people just like to do it. now show me proof from quran how dai is needed for salvation

[truth seeker100]

i havent asked you any questions champ. you are the one who is asking them. i dont want any answers from you becuase you dont have any to give. As to Fatimid beliefs, i dont need to prove anything to you.

correction you can't prove to me that Fatimid beliefs are in line with islamic beliefs. if you are so confident about these beliefs why can't you prove them? are u scared? do you not have raza from muffy? and btw you asked me why muslims kiss Hagar e Assad, I think that qualifies as you asking me a question