Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Aswk Brothers,

Firstly I convey all of you a very happy Ramadan.
Coming to point : What calculation method do we follow ? I don't find any where else the Ramadan starting from tomorrow.
Could someone please throw light on this ?

Best Regards

hunni wrote:Aswk Brothers,

Firstly I convey all of you a very happy Ramadan.
Coming to point : What calculation method do we follow ? I don't find any where else the Ramadan starting from tomorrow.
Could someone please throw light on this ?

Best Regards

For Abdes, the word of Dai or his Aamil should suffice, no need to worry about any calculations or moon sighting...If you can not see the moon,
see the picture of Dai in your house and that should be a substitute for moon.If Dai can be Haqiqi Kabah and Bolta Quran then why can't he be the MOON for Ramdan.

SBM wrote:..If you can not see the moon, see the picture of Dai in your house and that should be a substitute for moon.

the analogy is correct! the moon was split into two as per many rivayats in islam, as the dawat has split into two, the muffy camp and the mazoon camp.

I fear there has been a problem with Misri Calendar this year. The 'powers that be' appear to have forgotten intercalation calculation. Dhul Hajj last year should have had 30 days instead of 29. The start of Ramadan would then have correctly fallen on July 9.

Ramadan should really start on Tuesday July 9 because the new moon in Cairo will be on July 8 after sunrise. However, Bohras will jump the gun on astronomical calculation and start Ramadan to-morrow, a day too early.

For non-Bohras, who rely on sighting the crescent, the latter may or may not be visible on Monday night. They might begin Ramadan on Tuesday or Wednesday.

Bohras have start fasting today (Monday) whereas It is Amavas(new moon) today as per hindus and tomorrow is first.

It clearly shows Bohras do not have right method of calculating the start of month of Ramadhan.

SBM wrote:

hunni wrote:Aswk Brothers,

Firstly I convey all of you a very happy Ramadan.
Coming to point : What calculation method do we follow ? I don't find any where else the Ramadan starting from tomorrow.
Could someone please throw light on this ?

Best Regards

For Abdes, the word of Dai or his Aamil should suffice, no need to worry about any calculations or moon sighting...If you can not see the moon,
see the picture of Dai in your house and that should be a substitute for moon.If Dai can be Haqiqi Kabah and Bolta Quran then why can't he be the MOON for Ramdan.

a humble question to you SBM.

Did you start with the rest of Dawoodi Bohras as per the calendar or will you be starting with the rest of the Muslim Ummah?

porus wrote:I fear there has been a problem with Misri Calendar this year. The 'powers that be' appear to have forgotten intercalation calculation. Dhul Hajj last year should have had 30 days instead of 29. The start of Ramadan would then have correctly fallen on July 9.

Ramadan should really start on Tuesday July 9 because the new moon in Cairo will be on July 8 after sunrise. However, Bohras will jump the gun on astronomical calculation and start Ramadan to-morrow, a day too early.

For non-Bohras, who rely on sighting the crescent, the latter may or may not be visible on Monday night. They might begin Ramadan on Tuesday or Wednesday.

A wise, thought-out answer as always Porus bhai.

Just one question though, dont we have a perpetual calendar like the Gregorian one? i always thought we did

if we are jumping the gun, then wouldn't this error have come to light on 1st Muharram itself, when the new year starts?

humble_servant_us wrote:Bohras have start fasting today (Monday) whereas It is Amavas(new moon) today as per hindus and tomorrow is first.

It clearly shows Bohras do not have right method of calculating the start of month of Ramadhan.

Are Ithna Asher benchmarking and getting mentored themselves by Hindus?!!! [BTW Ithna Asheri have successfully copied idol worshipper Hindus by making idol of Imam Hussain a.s., steel/aluminium panjas and clothed frocks of Ahle Bayt and worshipping alive horse and what not!!! And now Ithna Asheri are even adopting Hindu calendar. Waw! ]

Quran 2:184 says have fixed number of days for Ramadaan. But Ithna Asheri DISOBEY and act against command of Quran and Sunnat. In past and present they have kept fast when it was Eid-al-fitr i.e. Ithna Asheri were mostly 'mahroom' of barkaat of Eid-al-fitr.

Humble_servant_US, their was no 'nuss-a-jali' done by Hasan Askari over Mohammed??? The episode of Gadeer Khum proves that 'nuss-a-jali' is single most important criterion for passing Imamat baton to next generation - without it Allah said, Prophet if you didn't do it then it is akin to you done nothing as Prophet, so Prophet declared 'nuss-a-jali' on ground of Gadeer! As per your own literature Hasan Askari has not done 'nuss-a-jali' over Mohammed!!!!!

Ithna Aheri all are astryed for Ramdaan and most of things related to Deen.

Forget moon, enjoy doing Mutaah and earn double sawaab in Ramdaan!

a humble question to you SBM.

Did you start with the rest of Dawoodi Bohras as per the calendar or will you be starting with the rest of the Muslim Ummah?

Br Zinger
As noticed by Br Porus posting, that it is miscalcualted so to answer your humble question, here is my humble answer, Inshallah I will start on
July 9th Tuesday.

Badrijanab

The question is very simple and requires a simple answer.

Bohras follow a calender which is lunar based. A simple test to prove the bohra way of calender is correct is observe the new moon and the first day of Bohra month. If they are same we accept the bohra calender. But unfortunately as a classical example today bohras have started fasting but there was no new moon sighted yesterday.

Hindu example was given because most bohras compare their new month with amavas of hindus. Anyways if you do not like it ignore it.

zinger wrote: Just one question though, dont we have a perpetual calendar like the Gregorian one? i always thought we did

if we are jumping the gun, then wouldn't this error have come to light on 1st Muharram itself, when the new year starts?

Yes, Bohras have 'perpetual' calendar. However neither Gregorian (Solar) nor Misri (Lunar) calendar reflects astronomical phenomena accurately. Both need to be periodically adjusted because the orbital periods of the sun and the moon do not coincide neatly with our definitions for the day. Hence periodic adjustments have to be done to both the Calendars. For Gregorian calendar , it is the Leap Year. For Misri calendar, I believe that Dhul Hajj is periodically adjusted to have 30 days instead of the usual 29.

I have covered this subject in great detail previously on this forum. But here is the summary.

In Islam, fundamental problem arises because the definition of 'month' is Lunar and definition of 'day' is Solar.

Ideally, every location on earth will start Ramadan on the sunrise following the new moon. But uniformity demands that one location is specified as the standard. For Misri Calendar, this location is Cairo, I believe.

Thus we have a situation that in some parts of the world, new moon will occur before sunrise and they will be 'correct' in starting Ramadan today. This is so for Western countries such as the United States. Others, more Easterly parts, where new moon will occur after sunrise, will start their Ramdan 'incorrectly' a day earlier. This is due to Global standardization for Misri Calendar on one location, namely, Cairo..

Ideally, the start of the month should be adjusted whenever moonrise and sunrise coincide very nearly. But this would be awkward. Hence Dhul Hajj is chosen for adjustment. The prime requirement is that the number of days for Ramadan must not vary from year to year in keeping with ayat 2:184. Hence, to answer your question, yes, it should have come to light when the moonrise and sunrise coincided. Since this can be calculated for all times in the future, adjustment has not happened when it should have.

In Cairo this year, new moon occurs after sunrise today. Thus the goof-up. No matter what, because of standardization, some will always be 'correct' and some 'incorrect' for starting Ramadan. That is also the case with those who prefer to sight the crescent. Again a location, such as Makkah is chosen as the standard. If that is followed universally, some will be 'correct' and some 'incorrect'.

There are moves towards Global standardization. But this goes against strongly held beliefs about Hadith.

porus wrote: However neither Gregorian (Solar) nor Misri (Lunar) calendar reflects astronomical phenomena accurately.

Dear Porus bhai,

Is it possible the 'astronomical phenomena' as professed by modern western science or by non-Bohras Ismaili's - can be partially but seriously incorrect or are you sure it is as true as being of Allah?

Then your benchmarking Misri calendar to westernized 'astronomical phenomena' and deriving inferences from same are weak argument not strong, my friend.

@Humble_servant - 'Nuss-a-jali' not happened to your Mohammed by Hasana Askari as per your own literature!!! Better convert to Bohras (less Kothar) and do magfirat this Ramdaan instead of enjoying Mutaah as preached by Ithna Asheri (whose mentioned is not even in Nahjul Balagha).

SBM wrote:

a humble question to you SBM.

Did you start with the rest of Dawoodi Bohras as per the calendar or will you be starting with the rest of the Muslim Ummah?

Br Zinger
As noticed by Br Porus posting, that it is miscalcualted so to answer your humble question, here is my humble answer, Inshallah I will start on
July 9th Tuesday.

SBM bhai, with full respect to you, when you are not obeying the dictum of Bohras (Islam) then on what morale you demand and complain about Kothar not following same?!!!

badrijanab wrote:Is it possible the 'astronomical phenomena' as professed by modern western science or by non-Bohras Ismaili's - can be partially but seriously incorrect or are you sure it is as true as being of Allah?

Mathematics is neither Western nor Eastern; neither Muslim nor non-Muslim. Same math is used by everyone all over the world.

You only need to consult all reputable Almanacs (published by all Governments in the World) to see that the new moon today in Cairo occurred after sunrise. There is very low probability of error. In fact, I think that there is no error.

porus wrote:

badrijanab wrote:Is it possible the 'astronomical phenomena' as professed by modern western science or by non-Bohras Ismaili's - can be partially but seriously incorrect or are you sure it is as true as being of Allah?

Mathematics is neither Western nor Eastern; neither Muslim nor non-Muslim. Same math is used by everyone all over the world.

You only need to consult all reputable Almanacs (published by all Governments in the World) to see that the new moon today in Cairo occurred after sunrise. There is very low probability of error. In fact, I think that there is no error.

Porus bhai,

At the core fundamentals of astronomy Quran and western science is 180degree opposite to each other!

There are scores and scores of aayat that says Earth is the at the centre of Universe and sun revolves round it, and Bohras follows the same. But western science, Sunni, Ithna Asheri all are of opposite to Quran!!!

So except Fatimi Dawat no one have RIGHTFUL knowledge enough about astronomy. If you doubt the words of Quran then the discussion ends here. But if you believe Quran to be unambiguously flawless then only Bohra Maslaq are in compliance with Quran in reference to astronomy. Rest all are otherwise.

badrijanab wrote: There are scores and scores of aayat that says Earth is the at the centre of Universe and sun revolves round it, and Bohras follows the same. But western science, Sunni, Ithna Asheri all are of opposite to Quran!!!

My dear Badrijanab bhai,

It is all relative. You are not incorrect in regarding the Earth to be at the Center of the Universe. Modern science will not disagree with that viewpoint.

porus wrote:

badrijanab wrote: There are scores and scores of aayat that says Earth is the at the centre of Universe and sun revolves round it, and Bohras follows the same. But western science, Sunni, Ithna Asheri all are of opposite to Quran!!!

My dear Badrijanab bhai,

It is all relative. You are not incorrect in regarding the Earth to be at the Center of the Universe. Modern science will not disagree with that viewpoint.

Waw! Though misguided non-Bohras does disagree to Quran on above.

Ramadan has been announced to begin on Wednesday 10TH JULY. This has been unanimously agreed upon by the judiciary community of Saudia Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and other promiminent Muslim countries. The ECC has also consulted Shayukh of Britain who have agreed that Ramadan is to be fasted on Wednesday with Tuesday night to be be the first night of Qiyam ul-Layl (Taraweh) insha'Allah.

Obviously, crescent was not sighted today in these countries and on completion of 30 days of Shabaan, Ramadan necessarily starts there on Wednesday. It is very likely that crescent will be sighted on Tuesday night.

Thus there will be two day difference between Bohras, who I believe started a day earlier, and some Muslim countries in the Middle East.

It is Hijri 1434 now. I notice that in Hijri 1437, three years from now, Dhul Hajj will be adjusted to 30 days, instead of normal 29 days, in the Misri Calendar. Although, I have not seen an Almanac for the intervening years, I fear Bohras will start Ramadan a day earlier until 1438 H; that is, for another 4 years.

SBM wrote:

a humble question to you SBM.

Did you start with the rest of Dawoodi Bohras as per the calendar or will you be starting with the rest of the Muslim Ummah?

Br Zinger
As noticed by Br Porus posting, that it is miscalcualted so to answer your humble question, here is my humble answer, Inshallah I will start on
July 9th Tuesday.

Hello SBM bhai,

Ok, so i have 2 questions again

1. how about the other Bohras in your area? did they also start on monday or will today?

2. if the other Bohras started yesterday, then wouldnt there be a discrepancy in Lailatul Qadr and Idd for you? Idd i can understand as most communities follow it on different days but the former? How would you adjust for that?

Anyways, if you start today, then Ramzan Mubarak to you and all at home.

porus wrote: It is Hijri 1434 now. I notice that in Hijri 1437, three years from now, Dhul Hajj will be adjusted to 30 days, instead of normal 29 days, in the Misri Calendar. Although, I have not seen an Almanac for the intervening years, I fear Bohras will start Ramadan a day earlier until 1438 H; that is, for another 4 years.

Br. Porus,

Zilhaj for 1434H itslef has 30 days in the Misri Calendar..hence this year is a leap year and one day will be adjusted accordingly. Therefore, next year onwards again it will be in line.

Heres the article from Alavi Bohras site for that matter:

http://www.alavibohra.org/kabeesah.htm

Aymelek wrote:Zilhaj for 1434H itslef has 30 days in the Misri Calendar..hence this year is a leap year and one day will be adjusted accordingly. Therefore, next year onwards again it will be in line.

Heres the article from Alavi Bohras site for that matter:

http://www.alavibohra.org/kabeesah.htm

Thank you Br. Aymelek. My apologies for missing 30 Dhul Hajj 1434. It is printed on the first line of the table, which I had failed to notice.

Yes, Bohras will be accurate next Ramadan. But, as I pointed out, this adjustment should have happened in 1433 H. And Bohras would not have jumped the gun this year.

AlaviBohra site gives a useful 'rule of thumb' for calculation the Hijri Leap Year. However, sometimes these 'rules' give false result and scientifically calculated Almanac should be used to confirm if the 'rule' can be applied. Thank you for the link.

porus wrote:

Aymelek wrote:Zilhaj for 1434H itslef has 30 days in the Misri Calendar..hence this year is a leap year and one day will be adjusted accordingly. Therefore, next year onwards again it will be in line.

Heres the article from Alavi Bohras site for that matter:

http://www.alavibohra.org/kabeesah.htm

Thank you Br. Aymelek. My apologies for missing 30 Dhul Hajj 1434. It is printed on the first line of the table, which I had failed to notice.

Yes, Bohras will be accurate next Ramadan. But, as I pointed out, this adjustment should have happened in 1433 H. And Bohras would not have jumped the gun this year.

AlaviBohra site gives a useful 'rule of thumb' for calculation the Hijri Leap Year. However, sometimes these 'rules' give false result and scientifically calculated Almanac should be used to confirm if the 'rule' can be applied. Thank you for the link.

Check out the moon phases for this year. This is as of mountain standard time in the US:
Full moon June 23, 2013 04:33:38 AM
Last quarter June 29, 2013 09:55:21 PM
New moon July 8, 2013 12:16:06 AM
First quarter July 15, 2013 08:19:57 PM
Full moon July 22, 2013 11:16:32 AM
Last quarter July 29, 2013 10:44:43 AM
New moon August 6, 2013 02:51:32 PM

So that shows that the new moon was 12:16 am on Monday, so it follows that Monday was the 1st of Ramadan (at least in the US), because even accounting for the 2 hour EDT delay, the new moon was before sunrise on Monday. Misri calendar looks pretty accurate to me. Note also that the next new moon is on 2:51 pm on Tuesday August 6, which fits perfectly with the Misri calendar which indicates Eid to be on Wednesday August 7 (thus completing the full 30 days of Ramadan)

Here's the website where I pulled that off of: http://www.calendar-365.com/moon/moon-phases.html

Brother disillusioned,

I have already stated that Misri Calendar is 'accurate' for the United States and everywhere the new moon occurred before sunrise. However, Misri Calendar is based on the location set in Cairo, Egypt. Look up the website you mentioned for the moon phases in Cairo or Mumbai, the seat of Daawat. You will find that over there, Bohras started Ramadan a day too early.

Here is a snippet from my yesterday's post on this page:

porus wrote:Thus we have a situation that in some parts of the world, new moon will occur before sunrise and they will be 'correct' in starting Ramadan today. This is so for Western countries such as the United States. Others, more Easterly parts, where new moon will occur after sunrise, will start their Ramdan 'incorrectly' a day earlier. This is due to Global standardization for Misri Calendar on one location, namely, Cairo..

.

Munira_RV wrote:@ Porus - Why are assuming that Misri Calendar is Cairo centric - for tallying with moon? Please provide proof. Thanks.

'Misri' Calendar was devised by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. It was initially based on Madina which is 1 hour ahead of Cairo. It came into disuse when Banu Umayya and Banu Abbas took over the Caliphate. It was restored during the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo and it was adjusted to reflect moon phases there. Cairo is in Misr (Egypt). Hence the name Misri Calendar

porus wrote:

Munira_RV wrote:@ Porus - Why are assuming that Misri Calendar is Cairo centric - for tallying with moon? Please provide proof. Thanks.

'Misri' Calendar was devised by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq. It was initially based on Madina which is 1 hour ahead of Cairo. It came into disuse when Banu Umayya and Banu Abbas took over the Caliphate. It was restored during the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo and it was adjusted to reflect moon phases there. Cairo is in Misr (Egypt). Hence the name Misri Calendar

From which book are you quoting for your point above?

Munira_RV wrote: From which book are you quoting for your point above?

I have discussed this issue with a number of learned people and it is their opinion. I do not have documentary evidence. I have stated this before several times on this forum. You should search the forum using the word 'misri' and my posts.

In the following document available on this website, Professor Mujtaba Lokhandwala makes a similar point without quoting documentary evidence.

http://dawoodi-bohras.com/pdfs/conversi ... -dates.pdf

porus wrote:Brother disillusioned,

I have already stated that Misri Calendar is 'accurate' for the United States and everywhere the new moon occurred before sunrise. However, Misri Calendar is based on the location set in Cairo, Egypt. Look up the website you mentioned for the moon phases in Cairo or Mumbai, the seat of Daawat. You will find that over there, Bohras started Ramadan a day too early.

Here is from my yesterday's post on this page:

porus wrote:Thus we have a situation that in some parts of the world, new moon will occur before sunrise and they will be 'correct' in starting Ramadan today. This is so for Western countries such as the United States. Others, more Easterly parts, where new moon will occur after sunrise, will start their Ramdan 'incorrectly' a day earlier. This is due to Global standardization for Misri Calendar on one location, namely, Cairo..

Ah yea.. I missed that part.. Apologies.

If they _did_ do whatever adjustment was necessary and Bohras all over started Ramadan a day later, wouldn't they still have been compelled to celebrate Eid on August 7? What then of the "Ramadan has to be 30 days" rule? or would they just ignore the astronomical New moon and wait another day?

Please don't misinterpret my questions as trying to be contentious. I'm just curious how it could possibly have been handled without violating either the seemingly sacrosanct "30-day rule" or the "Eid is the day following the new moon" rule (if that is even a rule)

disillusioned,

You made an excellent point. I must admit I am completely stumped. I have no clue how to handle this question. Thank you for pointing it out.

By the way, ayat 2:184 does not specify the number of fasts. It only states that it is fixed.

One way out would be to choose a location for Misri Calendar where both the requirements of the new moon and the 30 days are met all the time. Could there be such a location, I wonder?

I will go back to first principles in time. Inshallah.

The first visibility of the moon is important. Some nations have used the lunar phase cycle as the basis for their calendars. Different societies have different methods (models), so they do not all have the same starting criterion and the first day of the lunar month may differ. This paper focuses, on the scientific reasons for the university of Um AlQura Calendar.

http://www.hijracalendar.org/