Dawoodi Bohra Forum

Whenever I try to explain anything to my family members and try to argue with logic abt benefits of SKQ. They try to shun me off stating that when u would have heard these secret bayaan,( which they are not allowed to tell anyone) you would not be so ignorant.
I can't use logic if I don't know wat it entails. Can anyone please throw light. I am not even sure whether I have pronounced it right, it's a secret bayaan

Whenever the Bohra clergy right from Muffy to the lowest rung Amil doesn't have answers to your questions they say "Aa taawil nu bayan che, tamare nahi samaj padhe"....... A copout in any critical situations !!

Tell them SKQ and SMB drank from the same source and gained knowledge from same source which is STS. Infact SKQ has has more knowledge right now than SMS has all together, because SKQ learned from 2 dai's.
As far as "taweel" bayan goes, its a simple different interpretation of written text. Which now they fit according to agenda.

have been hearing this since the time I started understanding and askingquestions.... now have given up any hopes of getting any answers... even if I do, I won't be sure if it IS the correct interpretation....

Sujud wrote:Whenever I try to explain anything to my family members and try to argue with logic abt benefits of SKQ.(

Can you please put forward the arguments here ?

james wrote:

Sujud wrote:Whenever I try to explain anything to my family members and try to argue with logic abt benefits of SKQ.(

Can you please put forward the arguments here ?

unfortunately no arguments can change opinions of rocks, so it will be useless.

if you were sincere about the arguments you would have already seen difference between ms and SKQ.

well its not about what arguments i had or whether they will ever listen or not, i just want to understand what these bayaans are, why is ther so much of secrecy around them and why the ones who have atttended them consider themselves so learned.
And no body has addressed that in their replies.
And I am not getting swayed from my logic either. I havent attended the compulsory misaak, as I can't say ma'am for the heck of it

james wrote:

Sujud wrote:Whenever I try to explain anything to my family members and try to argue with logic abt benefits of SKQ.(

Can you please put forward the arguments here ?

Do not derail the topic. This topic is not about the SKQ v/s SMS. He mentioned SKQ v/s SMS just to highlight the Tawil thing.

If you have something to say about Tawil, then please go ahead.

Zahir- Don't read unless its from what we tell you. In fact only we will read it out to you and tell you what it means.these Bayans are open to individual interpretations & invariably lead to Dai ni shaan.

Taawil- when Zahir makes no sense to you or you question anything they say on Zahir for which they have no answer/no clue, they say its Taawil nu bayan. This again you need permission to attend sabaq & swear you won't share with anyone. Again these Bayans are open to individual interpretations & invariably lead to Dai ni shaan.

Haqeeqat- a notch above Taawil & they say you will go mad if you read without "Raza"

Sujud wrote:well its not about what arguments i had or whether they will ever listen or not, i just want to understand what these bayaans are, why is ther so much of secrecy around them and why the ones who have atttended them consider themselves so learned.
And no body has addressed that in their replies.
And I am not getting swayed from my logic either. I havent attended the compulsory misaak, as I can't say ma'am for the heck of it

Sujud

The word " Tawil " is not exclusive to Bohra doctrine . It is believed by Shia Islam and Sunni ( Sufis ) that there is an hidden meaning in the words of the Koran and actions we perform. That is called " Tawil " .

There are various grades of knowledge to be attained or books to understand before learning about Tawil.To learn about Allah Ta'ala 's creation , you put yourself and your son/daughter to a fixed system of :

1) Kindergarten
2) Primary School
3) Secondary School
4) College
5) Under Graduation
6) PHD

To learn about Allah Ta'ala 's creation and this physical world you cannot jump queue . You cannot make your child learn about PHD while he is still in primary school . He/she will go bonkers. Likewise , a reputed school doesn't come to him . He/she has to go there . You cannot be knowledgeable about Allah Ta'ala 's creation in the comfort of your own home with self help books . Even if you believe yourself to be , you will not be accredited by anyone else.

In the same way , Bohra Doctrine has devised a fixed system for dissemination of knowledge.It usually starts with learning the name of Allah Ta'ala , His Prophet Mohammed SAW, His Wasi Ali AS , The leader of all women in Paradise Fatema AS , Leader of All Youth of Paradise Hasan AS and Husain AS , Imam uz Zaman AS and his Dai Zaman TUS. Then comes the part where you learn Arabic letters and learn to read Koran . Then you are taught Wudhu and Namaz . The kids are then encouraged to hifz various Surahs of Koran or if possible the whole of 30th Para . In a madrasa , kids learn various nasihats and hamd and madehs in shaan of Rasullah SAW , Aimmat Tahereen AS and their Duat Mutlaqeen RA especially the present Dai TUS.

Once of able mind and after giving Misaq to Imam uz Zaman AS and his Dai Zaman TUS, , in a sabaq , first comes Daim ul Islam , Daim ul Islam Saani ( Part 2 ) , Shahrul Akhbar , Tambi Gafeleen ( zahiri kitabs ) .

Then one moves on to Asas Tawil , Tawil Daim , Majmu Tarbiya and other various kitabs. And lastly , one learns the Haqiqat kitabs .

Similarly , it would be futile to jump queue to learn more about Allah Ta'ala and akherat.

James,
But the question is who is the teacher?
I will learn from the teacher who's life reflects on the basis of Islam and Quran. and not from who's life is against the teaching of Quran, Rasulallah(swt),
Ali (as )and Imam (as) and Duat...so teacher is very very important.

James according to you does someone need a phD to become a faithful.

Islam was and is supposed to be a very simple straight forward religion. The peasants in the middle of the Sahara don't have time to go all the way to phD. They need to decide at "kindergarten" whether they are Muslims .

These extra stages ..are you sure the Prophet saw propagated or someone made it up hundreds of years after the Prophet to show they are better than what people though was basic religion. Are they theories . Because not everyone wants a phd in ideology.

james wrote:
“The word " Tawil " is not exclusive to Bohra doctrine . It is believed by Shia Islam and Sunni ( Sufis ) that there is an hidden meaning in the words of the Koran and actions we perform. That is called " Tawil " .

There are various grades of knowledge to be attained or books to understand before learning about Tawil.To learn about Allah Ta'ala 's creation , you put yourself and your son/daughter to a fixed system of :

1) Kindergarten
2) Primary School
3) Secondary School
4) College
5) Under Graduation
………………”
Every time I have asked a difficult question to any amil or a sheikh, I have been given the above answer.

James
And after some one gets a Ph D they share their knowledge to others unlike all the SAABAKIS who take Oath not to spread their knowledge

Many books has been written on tawil. This is not available to common bohras. Even in Jamia very limited version or tawil of few verses are being taught so that brain washed Mullas will teach the same to Abdes. There are written and recorded tawil bayan of complete Quran and we are trying to make it general very soon beside other "Banned" books to common public.

I would like to know why do they ban books and provide limited resources to public, are they afraid that majority of people start getting educated, they might lose their importance. Moulana Ali (AS) use to give ilm and taalim to anyone or everyone, he did not limit it to himself or his family or selective people, he did not give any immunity to any one regarding the ilm which he passed on. These people are afraid because they are hypocrites, they do not want to share the treasure with the ummah, but they make it easy when they ask for our hard earned money, atleast if you take so much money from people give them your hard earned taalim.

Taawil as taught to the bohras is pretty simple. There is no knowledge in this taawil. All they are taught is that everything in the Quran refers to the Imam and then to the Dai. If the Quran talks about the tree in Jannah, the bohra taawil will say that the tree refers to the Dai. If the Quran talks about 4 rivers in Jannah, the taawil will say that one of the rivers is the Dai. Believe me, I could give you this knowledge without forcing anyone to go through kindergarten. Give me any ayah of the Quran and I will give you the bohra taawil of that ayah. And this is the primary reason why this taawil is not available to the general public. That is why you have to go through 10 years of education to get it. It would be very easy to reject it unless you have gone through 10 years of brain washing.