Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

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mustafatailor
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:29 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3362

Unread post by mustafatailor » Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 am

Brothers I found out the Bombay High Court argument are available live on zoom. Anybody can log in. The timings are from 10.30 to 4.30 Bombay time Monday to Friday.

The zoom meeting number is 2022224242 and password is 2722 and everyone can use the same number and password, just sign in with your name. One needs to wait for some time but after few mins they let you in.

I have been logging in and listening on Zoom and it’s so interesting because normally you never hear about rules of nass or anything in bayan or sabaq but its all talked about here. Some very interesting things I heard.

First SKQ/STF side argued. Mainly they argued that the nass was given to SKQ by SMB saheb in 1965, and that although SMB saheb didn’t use the words “nass” he used other words “walad ahab” to show that SKQ was the mansoos and that all the shehzadas understood that this meant a nass. After this they all started to do sajda to SKQ and SMB saheb even told SKQ that they would do sajda to him and he can let them do that. They brought lots of letters even from SMS and his brothers where they gave sajda and called SKQ and SMB saheb two maulas. I think even judge Patel said there was no dispute that SMS had done sajda to SKQ before.

For the 1965 “walad ahab” they played a recording of that waaz over zoom. Recording was clear and the judge also said that it is very clear that SKQ was a person of high learning and a high scholar and everyone respected him very much.

SKQ side also argued that the nass cannot be changed or cancel. The brought example of 5th 6th and 7th Imam where they say that even though 6th Imam died during lifetime of 5th Imam, the 5th Imam then did nass on the 7th Imam and Dawoodi Bohra community believe that 5th 6th and 7th Imam are all Imams.

Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.

There was also something about a will of the 49th Dai but it was too hard to understand. Maybe if someone else is listening on zoom they can give more details.

SKQ side tried to argue against many other cases of nass change that SMS side brought. Mostly from times of the Imam but seems the judge Patel was not so interested in hearing about those examples and said to give more relevant examples. Tough to remember it all. One example SKQ side played a recording of SMS waaz from before this case submitted and another recording of SMS waaz from after, where SMS had changed some important wording about nass.

Other things. SKQ side says no witnesses needed for nass. But SMS side says that witnesses needed. Both the sides agreed that there is no special ritual or words of nass, it can be done any how.

Then SMS side started their arguments. One of SMS lawyers started by saying that this is a case where a man who was hungry for power and money has made a claim and that the evidence will show that there was never any nass on SKQ.

Then another lawyer started. They said that the most important thing they will show is that there was no nass on SKQ, and that this is a story that SKQ has deluded himself into believing. They brought some evidence that SKQ said one thing on 17th January 2014, and some wording difference on 18th January 2014 and then more wording differences in affidavits and other evidence. They said that he added or embellished his evidence and it should not be trusted.

They also said the SKQ claims about the coterie that tried to malign him was completely false and that there was no campaign against SKQ at all by Shz Yusuf Najmudin or anyone. And that the only issue that happened was that SKQ fell out of good grace after the Kenya incident.

SMS lawyers spoke about 2 claimed assassination attempts on SKQ and said that there is no evidence for this and the events are totally unbelievable, and that these are all made up in order to justify SKQ claim of secrecy and that’s why as per SKQ, SMB saheb could not declare and make the nass openly. More that if the claim or reasons of secrecy are unbelievable then the whole narration of the nass on SKQ also becomes unbelievable.

Then judge Patel said that he is having some difficulty with this position. That this is not a claim of some mad person coming alone to claim an office. SKQ and now STF are instead coming with the support of a full community who has given misaq and had the strong courage and strength to cast their lot with SKQ. It is one thing for SMS to say that SKQ cannot prove his case. But it’s something completely different to claim that the whole thing is a fantasy. To say the whole thing is conjured up does not make any sense.

I think SMS lawyers still have many more days of arguments left and it is getting more interesting.

Anyone can log in via zoom. meeting number is 2022224242 and password is 2722

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3363

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:46 am

Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.


ON THAT NOTE WHOLE ISLAMILI FAITH IS IN QUESTION NOW

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3364

Unread post by Biradar » Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:22 pm

mustafatailor wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 am Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.
Here Muffy and his Iblisi Toli is clearly on the wrong. I have taken numerous "sabaks" from SMB's youngest brother, Shz. Mohammad al-Baqir and he explicitly said that when Imam Ismail died, the imamat passed on to Mohammad bin Ismail. In fact, Shz al-Baqir said that the imamat can never go "backward" and that during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, the imamat passed to Imam Mohammad bin Ismail.

Further, in the Zahru'l Ma'ani of the 19th da'i al-mutlaq, S. Idris Imaddudin, it is explicitly written that Imam al-Sadiq appointed Musa al-Kazim as a hijab, i.e. a veil for Imam Mohmmad bin Ismail. There is no mention of nass on Musa al-Kazim at all. So the question of nass on al-Kazim being revoked later simply does not come up.

In fact, in Zahru'l Ma'ani it is explicitly said that one group believed in the recovability of the nass that Imam as-Sadiq had done on Imam Ismail. Further, the Zahru'l Ma'ani states that such people fell away due this belief and hence went astray. So, now Muffy says he is amongst the party of those heretics who believe that nass can be revoked! In fact, I would venture that this stance of Muffy Bohras puts them outside of the Ismaili tarika completely, and puts them into the tarika of those who believe in the revocability of the Imam's appointment.

(For those who do not know: S. Idris's Zahru'l Ma'ani is considered to be one of the major works of Ismaili esoteric doctrines, and is accepted by all Tayebis as genuine and reliable work).

Further, in the very important book Asraru'n-nutaqa (The Secrets of the Prophets) of Ja'far bin Mansur al-Yaman it is said that after Imam Sadiq appointed Imam Ismail, the latter, realizing his death was approaching, appointed his son Muhammad bin Ismail as the Imam. Ja'far bin Mansur al-Yaman further states that the Twelvers said that the Imamat "returned" to Imam Jafar, which is impossible. He also berates those who think that the Imam's designation can be revoked, saying that they deny the Quranic verse "He left his enduring declaration among his descendants" (Q 43:28).

Hence, Muffy Bohras are those who deny this verse, and hence no longer can be called Ismailis. I am really surprised that they are making such an outrageous claim.

As to the other points: the fact is that SKQ was the mazoon for 50 years. No one can deny that. Hence, the judge is right that this claim does not come from a "mad man", but a person personally trained by STS and trusted to the second highest position by SMB, though he was so young. Muffy is not much younger than SKQ, BTW, and so SMB could have made the choice to appoint Muffy as mazoon. I mean, SMB was much younger when his father STS appointed him mazoon and mansoos!

Now, the honest reality is that SMB messed up by not making his appointment public. He caused this schism. He could have avoided this issue simply by making a public declaration. But he was a luxury-loving megalomaniac, and so probably felt he would live forever and did not need to say anything publicly. Unfortunately, despite his megalomania and feelings of dvinity, Allah struck him with a severe stroke, setting the stage for this schism.

Further, it is clear to anyone with > 1/2 brain that Muffy is a horrible, misogynistic, anti-intellectual, money and power-hungry person. I mean, he accuses SKQ of this, but anyone can see how greedy he is: he uses his two feet and two hands to collect money, like a pathetic beggar points to envelops, visits people for < 1 sec for 1000s of dollars. How can SMB have appointed such a moron as a da'i?! If SMB did (which I think is not impossible), SMB seriously failed.

Now, say nass can be changed. This means da'i can make serious mistakes. So everything else he says is also potentially erroneous. So why should one take anything any da'i has said as true? Perhaps all 53/54 da'is are just wrong about everything! This, again, is a possibility one must consider.

In any case: my prediction is that Muffy will win this case. The problem is that Fatemi Dawaat side do not have any tangible proof either, and so as far as most Bohras are concerned, status-quo is best. Why bother to take a stand when both or all 52/53 da'is are potentially erroneous? FD people will lose the few followers they have when they lose. It will be game over.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3365

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:52 am

mustafatailor wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 am Brothers I found out the Bombay High Court argument are available live on zoom. Anybody can log in. The timings are from 10.30 to 4.30 Bombay time Monday to Friday.

......

They also said the SKQ claims about the coterie that tried to malign him was completely false and that there was no campaign against SKQ at all by Shz Yusuf Najmudin or anyone. And that the only issue that happened was that SKQ fell out of good grace after the Kenya incident.

SMS lawyers spoke about 2 claimed assassination attempts on SKQ and said that there is no evidence for this and the events are totally unbelievable, and that these are all made up in order to justify SKQ claim of secrecy and that’s why as per SKQ, SMB saheb could not declare and make the nass openly. More that if the claim or reasons of secrecy are unbelievable then the whole narration of the nass on SKQ also becomes unbelievable.

Then judge Patel said that he is having some difficulty with this position. That this is not a claim of some mad person coming alone to claim an office. SKQ and now STF are instead coming with the support of a full community who has given misaq and had the strong courage and strength to cast their lot with SKQ. It is one thing for SMS to say that SKQ cannot prove his case. But it’s something completely different to claim that the whole thing is a fantasy. To say the whole thing is conjured up does not make any sense.
....

Anyone can log in via zoom. meeting number is 2022224242 and password is 2722
SMS claim that the whole thing is made up does not make any sense. Below is a thread about the attack on SKQ in Surat.

viewtopic.php?p=26534&hilit=who+attacke ... oom#p26516

Looks like he was attached. I hope that team SKQ has more on this and has submitted it.

Also, they said (newspaper article) that there was no attempt to malign SKQ. Well, there are the whole zahin-batin tapes where they did try to malign him too, in addition to the idea of a mazoom in batin, etc.

And then there is the idea that they claimed nass was done on Musa Kazim and then changed. If as bhai Biradar says, if accepted texts exist on this issue, then they are wrong.

And all inconsistencies about the London nass and the Raudatut-Tahera video.

The job of a court, and this is precisely the job of the judiciary, is to rule between right and wrong. Judiciary is not a popularity contest. I sincerely hope and pray that the judiciary does its job.

After that, the Indian constitution gives the right to people to follow whom they want to - but Indian judiciary, respectfully, I hope that you do your job, no more, and no less.

And this whole idea that SMS is too powerful and too connected is totally overrated in my mind. Judiciary has put far more powerful people in jail. And even PM Modi as CM went and deposed before the SIT. Why should Indian judiciary lose its credibility by compromising on what is a 4th order minority in India. [Muslims are a minority (~ 200 million out of 1.4 billion people); Shias are a minority amongst muslims (~ 30 million), Ismailis are a minority amongst Shias( 5 million, may be), and Bohras are a minority amongst Ismailis (600K-800K, I think).] The idea that we are influential from a court perspective is bogus in my mind.

The court has far far more credibility to lose if it does not give a logical and correct judgement for this relatively small case, and I sincerely hope that it does.

And oh, btw: What about that attempt to bribe a judge to get that case dismissed. Shouldn't that offend the court? Who else tries to bribe a High Court Judge? I hope that it is taken up. These are just my thoughts, and my hope.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3366

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:24 am

Biradar wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:22 pm
mustafatailor wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 am Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.
Here Muffy and his Iblisi Toli is clearly on the wrong. I have taken numerous "sabaks" from SMB's youngest brother, Shz. Mohammad al-Baqir and he explicitly said that when Imam Ismail died, the imamat passed on to Mohammad bin Ismail. In fact, Shz al-Baqir said that the imamat can never go "backward" and that during the lifetime of Imam Jafar as-Sadiq, the imamat passed to Imam Mohammad bin Ismail.

Further, in the Zahru'l Ma'ani of the 19th da'i al-mutlaq, S. Idris Imaddudin, it is explicitly written that Imam al-Sadiq appointed Musa al-Kazim as a hijab, i.e. a veil for Imam Mohmmad bin Ismail. There is no mention of nass on Musa al-Kazim at all. So the question of nass on al-Kazim being revoked later simply does not come up.

In fact, in Zahru'l Ma'ani it is explicitly said that one group believed in the recovability of the nass that Imam as-Sadiq had done on Imam Ismail. Further, the Zahru'l Ma'ani states that such people fell away due this belief and hence went astray. So, now Muffy says he is amongst the party of those heretics who believe that nass can be revoked! In fact, I would venture that this stance of Muffy Bohras puts them outside of the Ismaili tarika completely, and puts them into the tarika of those who believe in the revocability of the Imam's appointment.

(For those who do not know: S. Idris's Zahru'l Ma'ani is considered to be one of the major works of Ismaili esoteric doctrines, and is accepted by all Tayebis as genuine and reliable work).

Further, in the very important book Asraru'n-nutaqa (The Secrets of the Prophets) of Ja'far bin Mansur al-Yaman it is said that after Imam Sadiq appointed Imam Ismail, the latter, realizing his death was approaching, appointed his son Muhammad bin Ismail as the Imam. Ja'far bin Mansur al-Yaman further states that the Twelvers said that the Imamat "returned" to Imam Jafar, which is impossible. He also berates those who think that the Imam's designation can be revoked, saying that they deny the Quranic verse "He left his enduring declaration among his descendants" (Q 43:28).

Hence, Muffy Bohras are those who deny this verse, and hence no longer can be called Ismailis. I am really surprised that they are making such an outrageous claim.

As to the other points: the fact is that SKQ was the mazoon for 50 years. No one can deny that. Hence, the judge is right that this claim does not come from a "mad man", but a person personally trained by STS and trusted to the second highest position by SMB, though he was so young. Muffy is not much younger than SKQ, BTW, and so SMB could have made the choice to appoint Muffy as mazoon. I mean, SMB was much younger when his father STS appointed him mazoon and mansoos!

Now, the honest reality is that SMB messed up by not making his appointment public. He caused this schism. He could have avoided this issue simply by making a public declaration. But he was a luxury-loving megalomaniac, and so probably felt he would live forever and did not need to say anything publicly. Unfortunately, despite his megalomania and feelings of dvinity, Allah struck him with a severe stroke, setting the stage for this schism.

Further, it is clear to anyone with > 1/2 brain that Muffy is a horrible, misogynistic, anti-intellectual, money and power-hungry person. I mean, he accuses SKQ of this, but anyone can see how greedy he is: he uses his two feet and two hands to collect money, like a pathetic beggar points to envelops, visits people for < 1 sec for 1000s of dollars. How can SMB have appointed such a moron as a da'i?! If SMB did (which I think is not impossible), SMB seriously failed.

Now, say nass can be changed. This means da'i can make serious mistakes. So everything else he says is also potentially erroneous. So why should one take anything any da'i has said as true? Perhaps all 53/54 da'is are just wrong about everything! This, again, is a possibility one must consider.

In any case: my prediction is that Muffy will win this case. The problem is that Fatemi Dawaat side do not have any tangible proof either, and so as far as most Bohras are concerned, status-quo is best. Why bother to take a stand when both or all 52/53 da'is are potentially erroneous? FD people will lose the few followers they have when they lose. It will be game over.
Bhai Biradar,

Could it be that they are out of all other options/ideas and are likely wrong, and hence making such an outrageous claim?

And if SMB had done nass on SMS as he says, using this letter (of 1969) and also this 2005 nass, why did they have a do the Radatut Tahera charade and the London nass thing? And remember that MS says that he knew about the 1969 nass before June 4th 2011, based on what I remember of the bayaan, and the fact that SMB showed him that letter (which means SMB was pre-stroke). Which also raises the question as to why MS was surprised (based on Abdul Qadir's bayaan) when he was told of the nass on him on June 4th ? There are these inconsistencies which I hope that the court considers.

I believe the court will/should use that implicit argument to believe that the claims of MS are questionable. And if MS cannot prove that a valid nass was done on him, the 4th Topic in the "Framing of the Arguments", I believe that the court should take that into account.

As also that none of the witnesses of the London Nass (7 folks is all, QJ + 3 brothers of MS, one sister of MS, Moiz BS and MS himself) came to the court to testify. If they are correct and it did happen, why would they (at least one of them) not come to the court and just say so?

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3367

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:43 am

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:24 am Could it be that they are out of all other options/ideas and are likely wrong, and hence making such an outrageous claim?
These types of arguments are made deliberately, to muddy the waters. Most Bohras (I would say 90-95%) have no clue what any text says, specially about such obscure matters like nass on people who died 1000 or more years ago. First, the texts are "hidden" and more over they are in Arabic and so immediately out of reach for almost everybody. Even if you knew Arabic and had access to the text, you would be hard pressed as many of these are multiple volumes, without any chapter or even paragraph breaks. No punctuation or even word breaks! Imagine taking an English book, removing all spaces, chapter headings and paragraphs. It would be one monster series of letters, hard even for a native speaker to read!

Often there are "table of contents" added to the book. But the reality is that they are often unreliable. In the Quran translation I discovered, for example, pages are numbers haphazardly: in one funny case number 492 is followed by 439 (instead of 493). The author then just keeps numbering from this wrong sequence, half-way realizes he made a mistake and then suddenly you get page 510! These types of problems are common in such texts. Hence, the need to take classes (sabaq) as reading complicated texts like these is nearly impossible by yourself.

Further, both the books I quoted are considered to be "secret" books, in that they contain esoteric doctrines. Specially these books are very haphazard and confusing. However, both these books curse and chastise those who say that the "Divine Will can be revoked", i.e. the nass can be changed. Clearly, Muffy is playing havoc with the Borha core doctrines!
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:24 am
And if SMB had done nass on SMS as he says, using this letter (of 1969) and also this 2005 nass, why did they have a do the Radatut Tahera charade and the London nass thing? And remember that MS says that he knew about the 1969 nass before June 4th 2011, based on what I remember of the bayaan, and the fact that SMB showed him that letter (which means SMB was pre-stroke). Which also raises the question as to why MS was surprised (based on Abdul Qadir's bayaan) when he was told of the nass on him on June 4th ? There are these inconsistencies which I hope that the court considers.
Again, there is no such letter from 1969. Muffy himself says he did not remember when his daddy told him about this so-called nass. How can you be such a moron that you "forget" such an important date, when you dad tells you that you are the next da'i? Answer: it never happened and you are pulling it out of your posterior, the only part of you that you have not (yet) sold for money. Actually, scratch that. Muffy has sold his posterior for money! Look at the videos and photos of the foolish Bohras who kiss the chair on which his holy posterior rested!
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:24 am As also that none of the witnesses of the London Nass (7 folks is all, QJ + 3 brothers of MS, one sister of MS, Moiz BS and MS himself) came to the court to testify. If they are correct and it did happen, why would they (at least one of them) not come to the court and just say so?
One correction: Muffy was not a witness to his own nass. He was not in the hospital when this mischief occurred. As I have theorized before, Muffy may be a victim here, in the sense that he himself is a pawn and is mistaken that nass has occurred on him.

Hence his incoherent ramblings about not "remembering" dates, not appearing in court under oath, his bungling in the first few years in which he disrespected his father, etc etc. Now he is just a greedy old man, bitter and angry all the time.

I think the FD side is also not very capable. The Zahir-Batin conspiracy is very well documented, and recordings of family members of SMB berating SKQ exist. Muffy was the central pole around whom the conspiracy revolved. It is well-documented on this board and analyzed in great detail here. Further, SKQ's story is completely consistent from day 1: listen to the first recording of his nass announcement, his second and the subsequent ones. There is no inconsistency in the overall narrative. In fact, if you listen to the first major announcement he made in his Thane home, you will see that those are exactly the points being argued in court today!

In any case, all this is a farce. SMB had already totally messed up the community, turning it into a impoverished, fanatical cult. Muffy is completing the job. I mean, SMB loved luxury and his life was a permanent vacation. He enriched his family and himself at the expense of the community. He sold titles and privilege, something unheard of before. He created a neo-caste system, in which his family was the "Brahmins", the Kothar the "Kshatriyas", the mashaik the "Vaishyas" and the regular Bohras the lowest "Shudras" class. Bohras, for all practical purposes have become Hindus. Perhaps we could call them Bohndus, for "Bor"ras + Hin"dus". Certainly, I hardly see any sign of the egalitarian tenets Islam anywhere amongst the Bohras.

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3368

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:41 am

Bohras after reading all the submissions from the " secret books" of muffy the laa yuffy.😂
Attachments
images (2).jpeg

yfm
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3369

Unread post by yfm » Sun Dec 11, 2022 4:11 pm

Fabulous:
In any case, all this is a farce. SMB had already totally messed up the community, turning it into a impoverished, fanatical cult. Muffy is completing the job. I mean, SMB loved luxury and his life was a permanent vacation. He enriched his family and himself at the expense of the community. He sold titles and privilege, something unheard of before. He created a neo-caste system, in which his family was the "Brahmins", the Kothar the "Kshatriyas", the mashaik the "Vaishyas" and the regular Bohras the lowest "Shudras" class. Bohras, for all practical purposes have become Hindus. Perhaps we could call them Bohndus, for "Bor"ras + Hin"dus". Certainly, I hardly see any sign of the egalitarian tenets Islam anywhere amongst the Bohras.

Let us wait and see what Gautam Patel verdict is.

Does any one believe that it will restore the bohras to any respectable state. Alas, only the "Shudras" will be fooled since they have been brainwashed.

Only Disgusted, "Shudras"!

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3370

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:25 pm

Biradar wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:43 am

I think the FD side is also not very capable. The Zahir-Batin conspiracy is very well documented, and recordings of family members of SMB berating SKQ exist. Muffy was the central pole around whom the conspiracy revolved. It is well-documented on this board and analyzed in great detail here. Further, SKQ's story is completely consistent from day 1: listen to the first recording of his nass announcement, his second and the subsequent ones. There is no inconsistency in the overall narrative. In fact, if you listen to the first major announcement he made in his Thane home, you will see that those are exactly the points being argued in court today!
Maybe I am wrong here, but my viewpoint is different.

FD may not be very capable, but that is NOT what the court is asked to evaluate. The court's job is to evaluate who is right and who is wrong and explain the reason why it came to that conclusion. I hope that it does that without fear or partisionship.

Then it is up to Bohra's to decide whom to follow. And there also, I see slightly differently.

Allah may ask us on the day of judgement: Did you observe what happened, and did you support the one who you felt was right? Just make sure you pass that test of your creator. Don't worry about others. That does not mean we agree with everything that FD says or does, or disagree with everything that SMS does or says; just that in the matter of who is the correct 53rd Dai - make sure you are true to your own soul. That is why, based on all that is being said, I think SKQ appears to be correct.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3371

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:41 pm

mustafatailor wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:48 am Brothers I found out the Bombay High Court argument are available live on zoom. Anybody can log in. The timings are from 10.30 to 4.30 Bombay time Monday to Friday.

.........................

SKQ side also argued that the nass cannot be changed or cancel. The brought example of 5th 6th and 7th Imam where they say that even though 6th Imam died during lifetime of 5th Imam, the 5th Imam then did nass on the 7th Imam and Dawoodi Bohra community believe that 5th 6th and 7th Imam are all Imams.

Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.
..........................................

This should offend all Bohras; sadly, most may not care. So they are okay saying this in the court, but they don't want to discuss it. The court should also take absolute offence to it and admonish them.

Why would they NOT want it to be discussed? Because it is a lie that they said? If you are saying the truth, it is an innocuous statement, why would you worry? The community beliefs are NOT that fragile. Inshallah our faith will survive.

This reminds me of the hindi couplet from a song from the film Khandaan: mujko barbadi ka koi gam nahi, gam hey to yeh ke barbadi ka kui charcha whoa" - [time 1:20 minutes to 1:30 minutes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSPiLBF_3_0

"Unko jooth bolne ka koi gam nahi, gam hai to yeh ke uska kui charcha whoa"



yfm
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3372

Unread post by yfm » Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:39 pm

Quote: He sold titles and privilege, something unheard of before. He created a neo-caste system, in which his family was the "Brahmins", the Kothar the "Kshatriyas", the mashaik the "Vaishyas" and the regular Bohras the lowest "Shudras" class. Unquote.

My Dear Bhayo, only those who are well educated and spiritual may be able to pass this test "Allah may ask us on the day of judgement: Did you observe what happened, and did you support the one who you felt was right? Just make sure you pass that test of your creator. Don't worry about others.

Only Allah gives us guidance. But here Allah has not given us any guidance and have been left to rely and depend on these Dais. The Dais have to go to the Gautam Patel, a non believer who will make his verdict based on the arguments that these dais will provide from historical literature.

Do we have a dai who has the stature of Imam Hassan, who says for the sake of peace in the Islam community, I relinquish my claim to the Imamat to Mawya.

What are we fooling ourselves for? Whether it is MS or TF we are bohras are doomed. Another split. Just a handful of bohras here trying to second guess the Indian Courts and hope one of these dais will take us to heaven when they have created hell for us here on earth.

Does any one here seriously believe that our community is on the true path? Or are we masses who believe in the God of the Masses because we believe we are following the right dai, whoever may be vindicated by Gautam Patels verdict.

:cry:

Biradar
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3373

Unread post by Biradar » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:02 pm

dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 6:25 pm
Biradar wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:43 am

I think the FD side is also not very capable. The Zahir-Batin conspiracy is very well documented, and recordings of family members of SMB berating SKQ exist. Muffy was the central pole around whom the conspiracy revolved. It is well-documented on this board and analyzed in great detail here. Further, SKQ's story is completely consistent from day 1: listen to the first recording of his nass announcement, his second and the subsequent ones. There is no inconsistency in the overall narrative. In fact, if you listen to the first major announcement he made in his Thane home, you will see that those are exactly the points being argued in court today!
Maybe I am wrong here, but my viewpoint is different.

FD may not be very capable, but that is NOT what the court is asked to evaluate. The court's job is to evaluate who is right and who is wrong and explain the reason why it came to that conclusion. I hope that it does that without fear or partisionship.

Then it is up to Bohra's to decide whom to follow. And there also, I see slightly differently.
Correct. But my point is: FD has presented a weak closing set of arguments. I am not taking about their general capability (which I think is also not that high), but only for this case. I may be wrong but if this is all the judge will base his decision on, then they will sadly lose. But of course, years of testimony have already been given, and so these closing arguments are not the most important. In any case, all this will be resolved soon.

mustafatailor
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:29 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3374

Unread post by mustafatailor » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:36 pm

Remind all brothers that timings are from 10.30 to 4.30 Bombay time Monday to Friday.

The zoom meeting number is 2022224242 and password is 2722
https://zoom.us/j/2022224242
password 2722

mustafatailor
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2022 2:29 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3375

Unread post by mustafatailor » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:45 pm

Fatema Yamani wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 10:46 am Very interesting from SMS side their lawyers stood up during this and said that actually after the 6th Imam died, the 5th Imam did nass on another son Moosa Qazeem and then later changed the nass to the 7th Imam after some time. SMS lawyer also said that this is a very sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much.


ON THAT NOTE WHOLE ISLAMILI FAITH IS IN QUESTION NOW
SKQ side lawyers said that if what SMS says is to be believed that after Ismail's death the nass was changed on Moosa, then according to this Ismail would not even be considered an Imam according to SMS belief.

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3376

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:01 pm

good,

so now muffy does not belong to Ismaili sect. so obviously he is not dai any more.

FD wins :lol:

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 762
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3377

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Mon Dec 12, 2022 12:51 am

Biradar wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:43 am
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:24 am Could it be that they are out of all other options/ideas and are likely wrong, and hence making such an outrageous claim?
These types of arguments are made deliberately, to muddy the waters. Most Bohras (I would say 90-95%) have no clue what any text says, specially about such obscure matters like nass on people who died 1000 or more years ago. First, the texts are "hidden" and more over they are in Arabic and so immediately out of reach for almost everybody. Even if you knew Arabic and had access to the text, you would be hard pressed as many of these are multiple volumes, without any chapter or even paragraph breaks. No punctuation or even word breaks! Imagine taking an English book, removing all spaces, chapter headings and paragraphs. It would be one monster series of letters, hard even for a native speaker to read!

Often there are "table of contents" added to the book. But the reality is that they are often unreliable. In the Quran translation I discovered, for example, pages are numbers haphazardly: in one funny case number 492 is followed by 439 (instead of 493). The author then just keeps numbering from this wrong sequence, half-way realizes he made a mistake and then suddenly you get page 510! These types of problems are common in such texts. Hence, the need to take classes (sabaq) as reading complicated texts like these is nearly impossible by yourself.

Further, both the books I quoted are considered to be "secret" books, in that they contain esoteric doctrines. Specially these books are very haphazard and confusing. However, both these books curse and chastise those who say that the "Divine Will can be revoked", i.e. the nass can be changed. Clearly, Muffy is playing havoc with the Borha core doctrines!



................................
These religious arguments are difficult to parse for ordinary Bohras, and to some extent by the court. Still, I can see that some conclusions can be drawn, as you say. That is why logical arguments are easier and so important.

If what they were saying was true, and consistent with what Bohras have been told, why would they tell the court "that this is a sensitive matter and the court should not discuss it too much". MS side presents this as evidence, and then say the court or the plaintiff cannot question it? How can that work? Why would they do that if they are saying the truth. And if they think it is a very sensitive matter that should not be discussed, why did you bring it up in the first place? I hope that the court draws the logical conclusion that MS side is in error. And that nass cannot be changed, once done.

The fact is that this is an outlandish claim, at variance with what we have been told innumerable number of times (including Rasulallah (SAW)'s words that nass is father-to-son except for Iman Hassan and then Imam Husein), and that is why they don't want it to be discussed in the community. That is my sense, but I of course don't have any special dawat knowledge.

juzer esmail
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3378

Unread post by juzer esmail » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:40 am

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Fatema Yamani
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3379

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:48 am

Hhhhmmm looks like courts are now running away from giving judgement.

I don't blame them. Looks like ismailis are confused long back. And there is no way to prove the authenticity of daiship.


For me all the previous honest and honorable dai are awliyah and no matter what was their status they were mehboob of Allah and going to their kabr is sawaab.

Can't say this is applicable for taher saifuddin burhanuddin and other greedy people

juzer esmail
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3380

Unread post by juzer esmail » Mon Dec 12, 2022 11:50 pm

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Fatema Yamani
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3383

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Thu Dec 15, 2022 12:33 am

lol judge will not be able to decide even for 100 years. coz whole case is full of confusion and mess.

juzer esmail
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 11:24 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3384

Unread post by juzer esmail » Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:22 am

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Fatema Yamani
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3385

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Fri Dec 16, 2022 12:28 pm

Fatema Yamani wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:07 am 1 TF has a letter which is a material to prove some thing, MS has nothing so far
2 Khuzaima was mazoon for 40 years and courts knows this is a position hold by the next dai
3 MS never appeared to the court which clearly shows he lacks knowledge or truth to appear in court
5 judges are not fools they can clearly read between the lines
6 if they work independently and don't get pressured by BJP they will clearly give judgment in TF favour
this is the right time for FD to produce any physical letter or evidence they have to be produced, courts will give judgment on proof only. ilhaam and other stuff doesn't stand in courts.

yfm
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:31 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3386

Unread post by yfm » Sat Dec 17, 2022 10:33 pm

I still believe the courts will say, there is not sufficient evidence to make a judgement as to who should be the dai based on NASS.

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:59 pm

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3387

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:07 am

Yup after wasting 9 years and crores of fees to advocates.

These advocates charge between 2 to 5 lacks per hearing. Imagine the bill of 9 years of this case.


Kaka Akela
Posts: 477
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3389

Unread post by Kaka Akela » Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:07 am

After reading everyone's comments here and following the court arguments as printed in Hindustan Times, i believe the Chief Judge is pushing the SKQ/STF to reply satisfactorily to his one question, and the whole case hinges on the reply to this question. The question is, why didn't KQ go to SMB between 2011 to 2014 and confront him that he already had done nass on him???
So far the lawyers of STF have not provided a satisfactory answer to this question. Their answers have been weak and circular in nature.
2011 was when he announced nass on SMS from hospital bed in Londo, and 2014 was when he passed away.

Fatema Yamani
Posts: 213
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#3390

Unread post by Fatema Yamani » Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:13 am

I think FD people have given the reply multiple times but obviously it's not satisfactory not for the courts and not for the people of the community.