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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:56 pm
by Biradar
Kaka Akela wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:07 am After reading everyone's comments here and following the court arguments as printed in Hindustan Times, i believe the Chief Judge is pushing the SKQ/STF to reply satisfactorily to his one question, and the whole case hinges on the reply to this question. The question is, why didn't KQ go to SMB between 2011 to 2014 and confront him that he already had done nass on him???
So far the lawyers of STF have not provided a satisfactory answer to this question. Their answers have been weak and circular in nature.
2011 was when he announced nass on SMS from hospital bed in Londo, and 2014 was when he passed away.
After the stroke, two things happened: First, SMB was essentially unable to speak or function normally and probably suffered from severe cognitive damage. He was not aware of his surroundings as we see in each of his forced public appearances after that. Second, the access to SMB was controlled and essentially impossible for anyone except the circle of conspirators and their allies. SKQ had been so isolated over the previous two decades that it was impossible for him to meet SMB in a proper setting, and perhaps even get anything across to him.

In any case, the FD people do not have any evidence that nass was done on SKQ besides SKQ's word. This is basically the problem here. There is no letter, no witness and no corroborating proof. Meanwhile, Muffy has a lot of witnesses (though not himself) who supposedly heard SMB pronounce nass on him in the hospital. I am not sure what happened there and I am inclined to believe that no nass occurred. In fact, the conspirators panicked that SMB would die and so pulled this stun in a hurry, bringing SMB home to perform the drama in Bombay.

The reality is that given all this, the court will judge against the FD people. It is almost certain to go that way. In any case, all this is just a farce. The whole Bohra system is corrupt and derailed a long time ago. These two cousins are enjoying. One guy is busy jet-setting around the world buying awards from corrupt countries, and the other is making youtube videos on random topics.

Even if FD loses STF and his siblings will enjoy life to the fullest. But one thing is almost certain: most of the FD people will abandon him, specially those who are not committed hard-core followers. The silent majority will abandon FD. What will be interesting is to watch the FD reaction as they will try and spin the results if they lose. Perhaps the court will not give a judgement and then both sides will declare "fath-e-mubeen" and the work of dividing the spoils and booty will begin. Bohras will be the losers here, in this world and in the hereafter. An increasingly impoverished community on the path to extreme fanaticism, and eventual demographic decline.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:30 pm
by anajmi
There is nothing can be done about their loss over here. But if they open their eyes, it is never too late to salvage the hereafter. They should realize that the bohra religion is a farce as you rightly pointed out. There is no hidden Imam providing ilham and even if there, the bohra Dais don't give a shit about it. Or he is having a hearty laugh behind the veil. He is probably talking to Dai 1 in the morning and assuring him, I am with you, and then talking to Dai 2 in the evening and assuring him, I am with you. In between, he probably visits the Alavi Bohra Dai and amuses himself even more!!

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:06 pm
by dal-chaval-palidu
Kaka Akela wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:07 am After reading everyone's comments here and following the court arguments as printed in Hindustan Times, i believe the Chief Judge is pushing the SKQ/STF to reply satisfactorily to his one question, and the whole case hinges on the reply to this question. The question is, why didn't KQ go to SMB between 2011 to 2014 and confront him that he already had done nass on him???
So far the lawyers of STF have not provided a satisfactory answer to this question. Their answers have been weak and circular in nature.
2011 was when he announced nass on SMS from hospital bed in Londo, and 2014 was when he passed away.
I think the answer may be considered weak (for this day-and-age), but I don't think it is circular (from a logic point of view).

SKQ says that nass according to the tenants of the Dawoodi Bohra faith was done on him. And he was told to keep it confidential until SMB passes away. And so, he did that. He would say that this is a matter of religion, and he believes (his faith/his beliefs) that he is supposed to strictly follow what SMB said. And he did that; in that sense it is consistent.

One could say that in this day and age, or from a worldly point of view, he should have done differently. But he says this is how DB belief system is - he followed strictly what the dai told him. I think that is self-consistent.

I would welcome other people's thoughts on this issue.

I think STS also mentioned that most of the nass in previous cases were also verbal. That is just FYI.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:25 pm
by dal-chaval-palidu
Biradar wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:56 pm
Kaka Akela wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 1:07 am After reading everyone's comments here and following the court arguments as printed in Hindustan Times, i believe the Chief Judge is pushing the SKQ/STF to reply satisfactorily to his one question, and the whole case hinges on the reply to this question. The question is, why didn't KQ go to SMB between 2011 to 2014 and confront him that he already had done nass on him???
So far the lawyers of STF have not provided a satisfactory answer to this question. Their answers have been weak and circular in nature.
2011 was when he announced nass on SMS from hospital bed in Londo, and 2014 was when he passed away.
After the stroke, two things happened: First, SMB was essentially unable to speak or function normally and probably suffered from severe cognitive damage. He was not aware of his surroundings as we see in each of his forced public appearances after that. Second, the access to SMB was controlled and essentially impossible for anyone except the circle of conspirators and their allies. SKQ had been so isolated over the previous two decades that it was impossible for him to meet SMB in a proper setting, and perhaps even get anything across to him.

In any case, the FD people do not have any evidence that nass was done on SKQ besides SKQ's word. This is basically the problem here. There is no letter, no witness and no corroborating proof. Meanwhile, Muffy has a lot of witnesses (though not himself) who supposedly heard SMB pronounce nass on him in the hospital. I am not sure what happened there and I am inclined to believe that no nass occurred. In fact, the conspirators panicked that SMB would die and so pulled this stun in a hurry, bringing SMB home to perform the drama in Bombay.

The reality is that given all this, the court will judge against the FD people. It is almost certain to go that way. In any case, all this is just a farce. The whole Bohra system is corrupt and derailed a long time ago. These two cousins are enjoying. One guy is busy jet-setting around the world buying awards from corrupt countries, and the other is making youtube videos on random topics.

Even if FD loses STF and his siblings will enjoy life to the fullest. But one thing is almost certain: most of the FD people will abandon him, specially those who are not committed hard-core followers. The silent majority will abandon FD. What will be interesting is to watch the FD reaction as they will try and spin the results if they lose. Perhaps the court will not give a judgement and then both sides will declare "fath-e-mubeen" and the work of dividing the spoils and booty will begin. Bohras will be the losers here, in this world and in the hereafter. An increasingly impoverished community on the path to extreme fanaticism, and eventual demographic decline.
I agree with you on what is underlined above, but if I was the judge, I would see that as a negative. So there were 3 witnesses (MS brothers), and his sister and brother-in-law were also present, and NOBODY CAME TO THE COURT AS A WITNESS FOR THAT NASS. If they were saying the truth, why would they not come and say so in court? So depends how you look at it. I would see that as a negative.

Suppose the medical reports are relatively clear (just my guess at this point) that SMB was in no position to speak clearly, then that exposes the whole charade (nass claim, audio, video, QJ and Abdul Qadir BS bayaans) and calls MS and all these statements as lies - in that case, if I were a judge, I would give weightage to what SKQ said.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:28 pm
by Fatema Yamani
anajmi wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:30 pm There is nothing can be done about their loss over here. But if they open their eyes, it is never too late to salvage the hereafter. They should realize that the bohra religion is a farce as you rightly pointed out. There is no hidden Imam providing ilham and even if there, the bohra Dais don't give a shit about it. Or he is having a hearty laugh behind the veil. He is probably talking to Dai 1 in the morning and assuring him, I am with you, and then talking to Dai 2 in the evening and assuring him, I am with you. In between, he probably visits the Alavi Bohra Dai and amuses himself even more!!
Imamat doesn't work like that and it's not a joke, even if you are a Sunni you should respect the position of Imam and you should know Prophet Muhammed SAW has repeatedly announced the coming of the last Imam.

Bohras too are supposed to give misaaq to Imam only, but these shayateen spin everything and took everything on them.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 9:35 pm
by Fatema Yamani
SKQ hold Quran and kasam khada and if bohras think that a mazoon can lie even after that then I pity them.
I don't think even an adna Muslim will hold Quran and swear on it.
for me, dai position does not hold just after Taher Saifuddin and his acts were not Islamic at all,
but if Bohras are really looking for a general leader then SKQ is correct in this claim.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:00 pm
by Kaka Akela
"SKQ says that nass according to the tenants of the Dawoodi Bohra faith was done on him. And he was told to keep it confidential until SMB passes away. And so, he did that. He would say that this is a matter of religion, and he believes (his faith/his beliefs) that he is supposed to strictly follow what SMB said. And he did that; in that sense it is consistent."
---------------------------
The confidentiality was between SKQ and the general public, not between SKQ and SMB.
Between 2011 and 2014 why didn't SKQ confront SMB about the nass that was done on him in private in 1965?? This is the question that the chief justice is desiring an answer for.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:24 am
by dal-chaval-palidu
Kaka Akela wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 11:00 pm "SKQ says that nass according to the tenants of the Dawoodi Bohra faith was done on him. And he was told to keep it confidential until SMB passes away. And so, he did that. He would say that this is a matter of religion, and he believes (his faith/his beliefs) that he is supposed to strictly follow what SMB said. And he did that; in that sense it is consistent."
---------------------------
The confidentiality was between SKQ and the general public, not between SKQ and SMB.
Between 2011 and 2014 why didn't SKQ confront SMB about the nass that was done on him in private in 1965?? This is the question that the chief justice is desiring an answer for.
I think the answer to this is that access to SMB was restricted as Birader says and there was no way that SKQ could ask such a question to SMB alone. And, even if he did, it is not clear what SMB's mental state was.

And Malik-ul-Asther said that in as many words. Remember that SKQ asked Malik-ul-Ashter that he (SKQ) wanted to do an arzi to SMB. Malik-ul-Ashter said to the effect that "SMB's situation is such that no arzi is possible". So that is a part of the reason that SMB could not be confronted. And we all saw SMB on his 101st milad. He was sadly tied to a chair and taken around. We saw that he could not utter a word coherently. But he may have had some limited motor skills.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 12:29 am
by james
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:06 pm And he was told to keep it confidential until SMB passes away. And so, he did that.
No he didn't. Website registered in November 2013. Walls of text on his website even before the burial of the 52nd Dai RA. I'm not even sure he was claiming that he was told to keep it confidential until " the passing away of the 52nd Dai RA" This seems to be an embellishment of your doing.

Anyways a Single Alif is enough to show the humiliation the plaintiffs are suffering in the court.PW2 (Taher Qutbuddin) tried to discredit the notebook on the flimsy grounds the Shaikh Ibrahim Yamani signed his name without an "Alif" in Yamani. It was shown to PW2 that the Madeh the plaintiffs brought forward written by Shaikh Ibrahim Yamani for Khuzaima was signed with an "Alif". Digging the hole further,PW2 said he believed that Shaikh Abdulhusain Yamani (Son of Shaikh Ibrahim Yamani) signed the madeh. This led to the Judge saying this is a "Colossol OOPS moment" and he told the Defense Counsel that they are really rubbing it in. :mrgreen:
dal-chaval-palidu wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 7:06 pm So there were 3 witnesses (MS brothers), and his sister and brother-in-law were also present, and NOBODY CAME TO THE COURT AS A WITNESS FOR THAT NASS. If they were saying the truth, why would they not come and say so in court?
You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel now. Here's some more information for you, Yesterday the Judge stopped the Defense Counsel for talking about the Handwriting Expert Dw12 with regards to his testimony of handwriting in the notebook. He said along the lines of why waste time when the handwriting has already been deposed and confirmed by 4 witnesses and it wasn't discredited by the Plaintiffs. The Plaintiffs counsel can't debunk one witness then why do you want others to waste their time? :roll:


The hollow claims of the notebook being fabricated were just that. The notebook was examined by the Plaintiffs on multiple occasions and till date they haven't been able to put any holes in it.

The Banu Abbas ask ‘Has Egypt been conquered? Tell Banu Abbas that ‘the matter is long resolved’ :)

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 1:10 am
by juzer esmail

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 am
by _Zulfikaar_
I pray that the high court brings an end to this madness so that the caliph can turn his attention towards his job.
Who is the dai is less important.
How to uplift a downtrodden community?
How to reverse the demographic decline?
How to find brides for honourable young men in the community?
How to make resources of the community equitable?
And above all how to reduce room rates in musafirkhanas?

These are the important issues that are not getting the limelight because of this family issue....

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:37 am
by Fatema Yamani
_Zulfikaar_ wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 am I pray that the high court brings an end to this madness so that the caliph can turn his attention towards his job.
Who is the dai is less important.
How to uplift a downtrodden community?
How to reverse the demographic decline?
How to find brides for honourable young men in the community?
How to make resources of the community equitable?
And above all how to reduce room rates in musafirkhanas?

These are the important issues that are not getting the limelight because of this family issue....
excellent points, people need to speak up now just like Indians are now walking on road and rising up against Modi.

marriage is a big concern in community now
musafirkhana rates are sky high and there is no limit to the charges
all other points are apt


just a few days back I was in kapadvange for zyarat, and came to know from locals that Muffy has encroached all the kabristan land on paper and now the locals are asked to be buried very far away places, they have no excess to the land of kabrestan now.

22000
11000
53000 per grave is charged in Kapadvanj

Muffy has been forcing worldwide jamaat to write all the properties in his personal name and not in dawat name, chamcha jamaat members are signing documents world wide without a rethink.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:02 pm
by Biradar
_Zulfikaar_ wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:03 am I pray that the high court brings an end to this madness so that the caliph can turn his attention towards his job.
Who is the dai is less important.
How to uplift a downtrodden community?
How to reverse the demographic decline?
These are all lost causes. The da'is are all busy minting money, as quickly as they can. We see videos of Muffy pointing to envelops like a common beggar, using his two hands and two feet to collect money 4x faster. If we was not lazy, he could stand up and then use his behind too. So 6x faster collection of money! Children and brothers of SMB and now Muffy are enjoying. I am yet to meet a so-called shehzada who is not a lazy bum. SMB's extended family runs into thousands. They all sit around collecting money and exerting power over common bohras.

Further, demographic decline is not stoppable. In the West most children, say 90%, leave the community or become silent and resentful participants when the exit high-school. No one wants a grumpy old grandpa ranting and raving at them, telling the girls to sit in the corner of house, wear ridiculous tea-cosy clothes, undergo FGM, marry the first roly-poly caveman who comes along. The system is collapsing. In a few short years the bohras went from about a million to 700K or so. About 60-70% of those really do not even believe. Even the most sheepish bohri realizes that mulla and mola are all about money. This has caused widespread malaise in the community, leading to deep declines.

As to this case. The FD people will lose. Muffy is a horrible da'i but that is not what this case is about. FD has no tangible evidence. I am sure SMB told SKQ he was doing nass on him. However, SMB was a megalomaniac of the highest order. If he really appointed his insane, greedy man Muffy as his successor, I think he was not just a megalomaniac, but a fool too. Clearly, he was in love with luxury and his whole life was a big picnic. But he is the person who basically pushed the community towards it's decline and fall. If any sane person sees these so-called da'is, one a megalomaniac, one a money-grubbing angry old-man, one sitting in the basement in Thane LARPing as a da'i, he will run the opposite way. This is not Islam. God help the bohras!

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 5:12 pm
by Biradar
anajmi wrote: Tue Dec 20, 2022 3:30 pm There is nothing can be done about their loss over here. But if they open their eyes, it is never too late to salvage the hereafter. They should realize that the bohra religion is a farce as you rightly pointed out. There is no hidden Imam providing ilham and even if there, the bohra Dais don't give a shit about it. Or he is having a hearty laugh behind the veil. He is probably talking to Dai 1 in the morning and assuring him, I am with you, and then talking to Dai 2 in the evening and assuring him, I am with you. In between, he probably visits the Alavi Bohra Dai and amuses himself even more!!
To believe that Bohras will open their eyes is to believe that Santa really slides down chimneys to leave us presents.

There is no hidden imam. Even the so-called da'is (all the SXXs combined) know that. All this baloney about some guy, a descendant of the Fatemids, hiding for 1000 years behind his mummy's ghagra is just that. Baloney. No such person exists. What is he afraid of? Putin? Biden? Trump? I mean, come on!

BTW: You forgot the Sumemani da'i, the Mehdibagwala, Sunni Bohras, Khoja Bohras, Ustadi Bohras, etc, etc. It is all a mess. I mean, Muffy is claiming he is not even sure Imam Ismail was an imam or not, as apparently his father (Imam as-Sadiq) changed the nass. Twice. As I said before, bohra train derailed centuries ago. Perhaps right after Imam Jafar as-sadiq.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:23 pm
by Fatema Yamani
Biradar come out with your real name and address or are you wearing your mummy ghaghra or affraid of biden putin or muffy?


I advice you just talk about the wrong doing of present leader and keep your mouth shut on personality like Imam

its not just bohra concept that Imam will arrive, sunni and shia and other religions also believe that Imam/Jesus will arrive.

@ADMIN do make sure that stupid people are moderated and people like biradar dont cross their limits

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:39 pm
by Kaka Akela
I also felt offended with Biradar's foolish comments about Imam A S.
Rasulullah S A has said that i am leaving two things in this world and they will meet me back at Hauz e Kauser, one is Quran and the other is Imam from my progeny. If you deny Imam's existence then you don't even qualify to be a muslim. Plz go find another Forum.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:23 am
by zinger
People, while i am not here to condone or condemn Birader for his post, i think what Kaka has said (you don't even qualify to be a muslim. Plz go find another Forum) is uncalled for. let me explain why

firstly, this is an open democratic forum. everyone is free to speak their mind. Anajmi, Ghulam Mohammad and Muslim First have been here for many, many years, openly ridiculing the DB belief system. Al Zulfiqar and SBM too, on a coupe of occasions may have questioned the concept of Imam. has anyone ever told them "you don't even qualify to be a muslim. Plz go find another Forum"??? Nope.. and thats the beauty of this forum

and secondly from what i know of Birader, he is a highly educated, well-read individual but he is the kind of person who wears his heart on his sleeve and lets his emotions get the better of him. this is something i have noticed in him, in the many years i have seen him write. i feel what he has written here was also in the heat of the moment, in a fit of passion

once again, while i will not crucify Birader's for his views, i dont subscribe to it either, but... to each his or her own

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 2:12 am
by Kaka Akela
I agree it is open to all, a democratic Forum within the context of muslim/ bohra beliefs as the name of this Forum dictates. You can not pontificate anything that is outside of parameters of muslim/bohra beliefs.
I also have been on this Forum for long many years and have also admired Bro Birader and all others you mentioned and their extensive knowledge. But when he propagates that which is out of the realm or scope of this Forum, then he needs to be called out.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 am
by QutbiBohra
"Justice Gautam Patel" will be the Imam of Bohras because he is the one who is going to decide about the Dai.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:03 am
by Fatema Yamani
there were people in the time of Muawiya who use to be okay even when Imam Ali was abused from the mimbar, they use to think muawiya is present khaliafa and we should not attack or say any thing,

today people like zinger comes in same category who are okay to read abuse to Imam written by some 2 paisa naa so called self-proclaimed scholar, Quran has sent lanat on such munafiq.

such 2 paisa worth scholars read 2 3 books in arabic literature and thinks they have knowledge to comment on Imam and Islam

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:12 am
by Humsafar
Hello people, calm down. Why are you guys shooting the messenger? Anyone with half a brain would conclude that there's something seriously wrong with this Imam business.

Look at the these current contesting Dais, and all the other contesting Dais and contesting Imams of the past -- do you think all their rivalries would be possible if there was one true Imam? In principle, going strictly by the Shia doctrine, there must be just One True Imam at any given time, but look what has happened? Imams have been popping up through the past thousands years like mushrooms. This fact alone falsifies the doctrine of Imamat. I understand that Shia/Ismaili/Fatimid faith is rooted in the concept of Imamat, and without this faith everything crumbles down.

So, at the bottom, this is the dilemma of most of you: without the Imam as the hook, you are at a loss as to where to hang you faith. For this, don't blame Biradar or anajmi and others. Blame the power-hungry, money-grabbing Dai wannabes who are making a mockery of the Imam and Imamat.

As for the freedom of expression on this forum, there are all kinds of views being expressed here: Islamic, unIslamic, anti-islamic. As long as those views are expressed without abuse and profanity I personally don't see any problem with it.

Also, people here have questioned God and His existence, they have been critical of the Prophet, they have questioned Imams too, so what's the big deal if the idea of Imamat itself is questioned and dismissed. Nobody is asking you to do the same. If your belief in God, Prophet, Imam is firm then abide by that belief and don't be swayed by the people who question that belief. Only people with weak faith are afraid of criticism. Look at abde Bohras, they have holding tight the rope of their Moula. Learn from them.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:58 am
by Biradar
Kaka Akela wrote: Wed Dec 21, 2022 9:39 pm I also felt offended with Biradar's foolish comments about Imam A S.
Rasulullah S A has said that i am leaving two things in this world and they will meet me back at Hauz e Kauser, one is Quran and the other is Imam from my progeny. If you deny Imam's existence then you don't even qualify to be a muslim. Plz go find another Forum.
:shock: :roll:

I am glad you are offended. Sometimes that is healthy. It is also nice to see the red-ink spilling Al-Bore aka Mummy's Boy aka 20 different aliases and now parading around as a woman keeps you company. Hope you don't get infected with the jinn that makes him pretend to be a woman and then a man every few months. He is neither. Just a napusak.

I should also say one other thing: by saying "you don't even qualify to be a muslim" you have taken up the position of a prophet or perhaps god himself. Islam only requires you to recite the shahada to become Muslim. Maybe you are receiving revelations too now that tells you that believing in a non-existent guy too afraid of his own shadow is also needed? Make sure those revelation are not from Iblis!

Sadly, the reality is that there is no imam in hiding. To believe this is to believe in the most absurd and childish fantasies. Please can you point me to a verse in the Quran that says that an imam exists in hiding, and who will continue hiding for ever and ever. I will wait patiently.

In the hadith you quoted, the two things, BTW, are the Quran (which is mentioned first) and his progeny. Not imam. Further, in the text of the hadith the Prophet does not say that my progeny will hide in fear for thousands of years! Also, what progeny? The one the Twelvers believe is hiding in some cave and now is an ancient 1000+ year old man, the horse-racing playboy who lives in Paris, or the non-existent timid mommy-ghagra hiding fellow, whose various SXXs are money and power hungry morons? Or the thousands of others who are descended from the Prophet via Fatema?

In reality, in Islam physical descent is not important. What is more important is the spiritual descent. The "progeny" mentioned here is not in a father-to-son descent but a general statement about leadership via spiritual initiation, which is the real form of prophetic descent.

Despite all these pretend leaders of the the Muslims, all fighting with each other there is one and only one Quran. So, instead of clinging to the one which is manifest and obvious in front of you, i.e. the Quran, and making an attempt to understand it, you want to cling to factions and divisions and people who are out to get money. I mean, I bet that you are clueless about Islam as taught by the Quran and Prophetic examples, do not even understand the basic surface of the Quran, but are so upset about some person on a small forum pointing out the absurdity of believing in an non-existent guy. Shows how absurd and skewed your priorities are!

As to this case: again I want to point out FD will lose. I mean, consider this possibility: SKQ may have misunderstood what SMB said. In fact, I pointed out to the opening statement of FD people in which they state that SKQ assumed nass was done due to the words that SMB used. This implies SMB did not explicitly use the word "nass:" in relation with SKQ. However, it is hard to believe that SKQ, a man trained personally by STS (who was a genuine scholar and had a commanding control of the Arabic language), would make such a mistake. Hence, it is credible that SMB really did mean that he meant to do nass on SKQ. However, as I said above SMB was a megalomaniac and may have changed his mind and perhaps played games in piting his sons against his mazoon. For example, say we are to believe that SMB told his close companions about the nass on Muffy in 1969. At that time SMB was in control of his senses (one hopes) and so if one were to believe SKQ and the nass on Muffy, just 4 years apart, would mean SMB was deliberately creating problems.

Now consider: it is clear from various things discussed at length on this forum that Muffy was at the center of the Zahir-Batin conspiracy. There is zero doubt about the hate campaign against the mazoon saheb, as recordings exist that prove this beyond any doubt. Hence, during the lifetime of SMB and in a time when he was still cognitively not impaired, one person (Muffy) he had appointed as his successor was conspiring against the person (SKQ) who he had also appointed as his successor, and was, in fact, his mazoon! Clearly, this messed up situation is the fault of SMB who could have everything clear as daylight by pronouncing everything openly while he still had cognitive control and was not a puppet in the hands of his children and brothers.

Yet, we are to believe all these money-grubbing, power-hungry and absurd tin-pot SXXs are all being guided by "ilham" of an "imam"! I mean, can one be so naive? Obviously, the whole edifice of Bohra theology going back centuries is flawed. If we can't even know what happened in our lifetimes, with all sorts of technology to record and archive things, how can we be sure of anything say 1000 or even 200 years ago? Clearly, we can't. My interest in this case is merely from a historical and philosophical perspective. I have already said many times that I have very little connection with bohri communities and consider their antics to be somewhat laughable and sadly pathetic.

I personally liked SKQ and also like STF. They were/are both smart and personable people, clearly better than the moronic angry grandpa Muffy. But I do not believe that either of them has any truth or haqq with them. They left the path of haqq long time ago. And, again, there is no imam to save us. Just the most important thing the Prophet left us: Islam as taught by the Quran. That is about it.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:22 pm
by Biradar
Humsafar wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:12 am Hello people, calm down. Why are you guys shooting the messenger? Anyone with half a brain would conclude that there's something seriously wrong with this Imam business.

Also, people here have questioned God and His existence, they have been critical of the Prophet, they have questioned Imams too, so what's the big deal if the idea of Imamat itself is questioned and dismissed. Nobody is asking you to do the same. If your belief in God, Prophet, Imam is firm then abide by that belief and don't be swayed by the people who question that belief. Only people with weak faith are afraid of criticism. Look at abde Bohras, they have holding tight the rope of their Moula. Learn from them.
The keyword you used are "half a brain". Finding people with > half a brain is very hard. Trust me, I have looked. As someone said "Bewakufo ke qami nahi Ghalib, ek dhundo hazar miljaege".

The absurd reactions of the Al-Bore disguised in a rida as a woman and poor Kaka Akela are a sign of their deep fanaticism and misunderstanding of Islam. I mean, manifest and obvious things are not clear to them, yet they have absolute faith in things they can not prove or even explain properly. Emotional tantrums are all one can expect from such fragile egos, trapped in the mud and dirt of hayula.

As to the topics on this forum: you are right about the vigorous debates and all sorts of views discussed here. All sorts of people visit and provide useful viewpoints. One is free to ignore or put one's own viewpoint. One is even free to throw a tantrum and cry like a baby because some person said something one did not like, as clearly some are doing here. All sorts are welcome :roll:.

In any case, one question I have for the official "Progressives" is what is their position on this mess? What happens after this case is over? On one side is Grumpy Grandpa and on the other a small and collapsing family business. Clearly the Ustadi Bohras have moved on from the position of da'i al-mutlaq. But what about the Progressives? Will they consider the winner to be the "One True" da'i? Or perhaps no one cares?

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 pm
by Kaka Akela
Hello Biradar, Zinger and Humsafar, thank you for calling us half brained and changing the sex of one of us.
I assume Biradar or one of you 3 is the moderator of this Forum. This explains why you back up each other and no one gets banned for insulting the imam in such horrible & filthy words and also denying even his existence.
I have been on this Forum for 20+ years and we used to have very heated but enlightening discussions about all aspects and personalities of our deen, but I don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah S A. Reading kalema tus Shahada makes you Muslim,yes but Muawiyah, Yazid and Shimar also had recited the same kalema and brutally assasinated the imam. You all are doing the same except your MO is verbal, in writing and not with bhoota khunjar.
In the number 1,000,000 the zeros represent the knowledge ( the immense knowledge of Biradar) and the one represents the valayat of Aimmat Tahereen and Panjatan paak.
Without the presence of one in the number all the zeros mean nothing. So Biradar all your PhDs and immense knowledge and fancy verbiage is for naught if you use such fowl language for imam and even doubt his existence. I don't want to continue a back and forth on this issue and will end by saying to each his own.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:58 pm
by Biradar
Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 pm
I have been on this Forum for 20+ years and we used to have very heated but enlightening discussions about all aspects and personalities of our deen, but I don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah S A. Reading kalema tus
I guess you must be suffering from amnesia then. I have been also on this forum for 20+ years. This argument about the (non)-existence of the imam from the descendants of the Fatimids (i.e. the ones who ruled Egypt) has occurred dozens of times here. Only you and your buddy (the viral infection Al Bore) think people should be censored, or are not a Muslim etc. By the latter statement you have actually done shirk, BTW, as only the Prophet or Allah can pronounce a person is not a Muslim. Shirk is the only unforgivable sin and I hope you repent.

Further, you now claim "don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah". What descendant? Where? There is no such descendant hiding anywhere. What are you taking about, leave alone "derogatory language"? You realize if I say that Santa Claus does not exist, I can't be using "derogatory language" for Santa as I just made the claim he does not exist!

There are probably 1000s of descendants of the Prophet, including the Twelver imams. Do you mean to tell me that no Fatmid imams has actually said anything "derogatory" about them? Were they also not descendants of the Prophet? Further, the Fatmid imams themselves have used pretty severe language for their own uncles and cousins, calling them monkeys and donkeys. Were not the descendants of imams also descendants of the Prophet?

Use your brain a little bit to understand what I am saying. The Fatimid empire collapsed 1000 years ago. The question is: does a descendant of Imam Tayib actually exist? The answer is no. Sure, I am sure this thought is scary to you as you are committed to this belief and think it is central to your existence. You are free to have any belief you like. But the reality is that all the SXXs have also concluded that such a person does not exist. I have personally heard SMB say "Many people ask me 'Where is the Imam?'. I tell them he is in my heart". Which means he did not believe in the existence of a physical imam either.

Also, I asked you a simple question and you refused to answer. Please provide verse(s) from the Quran that say that there is a person called "imam" from the descendant of the Prophet who will be hiding in fear for 1000+ years. While you are searching, I remind you that the Quran calls to perform jihad. It is a Pillar of Islam. Jihad can't be done cowering in fear for 1000+ years. This is manifest and clear call in the Quran. So please produce an equally manifest and clear set of verses that answer my question posed to you now twice.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:33 pm
by Biradar
More from HT: https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/m ... 08247.html

This is really a total farce. I am sure "Santa" is having a good laugh.

Incidentally, Muffy's elder brother, Qaid Chor is implying that SMB really did not do nass in Cromwell hospital. It seems that he is implying that as SMB had suffered a stroke he (i.e. Qaid Chor) decided to take matters in hand and inform Muffy that nass occurred. What a horrid mess!

So many nass-es, on so many occasions and so much secret chatter about it. Even SKQ's daughter thought at first that nass occurred on Muffy. SMB really messed up. He perhaps deliberately did nass both on SKQ and Muffy knowing they would fight and cause chaos. Maybe it was SMB's final joke on the community, after he has milked it to live a life of decadence and ultra-luxury. Now even the judge is saying "nass is a matter of faith". Did he not know this from day 1? Why did the HC then take this case up? The very first plaint of SKQ is that he be "declared" as rightful da'i al-mutlaq. If he felt that the HC could not do this, which meant resolving this question of nass, why would he file a case in the first place?

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:32 pm
by Humsafar
Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 pm Hello Biradar, Zinger and Humsafar, thank you for calling us half brained and changing the sex of one of us.
I assume Biradar or one of you 3 is the moderator of this Forum. This explains why you back up each other and no one gets banned for insulting the imam in such horrible & filthy words and also denying even his existence.
I have been on this Forum for 20+ years and we used to have very heated but enlightening discussions about all aspects and personalities of our deen, but I don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah S A. Reading kalema tus Shahada makes you Muslim,yes but Muawiyah, Yazid and Shimar also had recited the same kalema and brutally assasinated the imam. You all are doing the same except your MO is verbal, in writing and not with bhoota khunjar.
In the number 1,000,000 the zeros represent the knowledge ( the immense knowledge of Biradar) and the one represents the valayat of Aimmat Tahereen and Panjatan paak.
Without the presence of one in the number all the zeros mean nothing. So Biradar all your PhDs and immense knowledge and fancy verbiage is for naught if you use such fowl language for imam and even doubt his existence. I don't want to continue a back and forth on this issue and will end by saying to each his own.
For more than 20 plus years this forum is poking fun at the Dais, holding them to ridicule and challenging their legitimacy and authority. And you have been one among many who have been doing that. The question then is, the Dais that you disparage so much, work under the aegis of the Imam, right?

So if you have such incompetent morons for Dais (and you admit they are incompetent morons) then what does it say about the Imam under whose authority and at whose pleasure they operate? Think about it. Imams are supposed to be masoom, that is perfect, so it is not possible that perfect Imams would appoint imperfect Dais. If you insist that they do appoint them then you're attacking the very foundation of your faith. So let us accept that perfect Imams can appoint only good, competent Dais. But since we have moronic and corrupt Dais, it stands to reason to conclude that the Imams have not appointed these morons. Either there's no Imam or if there is one, he doesn't really care. But it is the job of Imam to care, he's the only Guide there is for the faithful. Ergo, there's no Imam.

The faith in the Imamat has put us all in a quandary. If you reject the Dai, you have to reject the Imam too. You can't have it both ways.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:08 pm
by Fatema Yamani
Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 pm Hello Biradar, Zinger and Humsafar, thank you for calling us half brained and changing the sex of one of us.
I assume Biradar or one of you 3 is the moderator of this Forum. This explains why you back up each other and no one gets banned for insulting the imam in such horrible & filthy words and also denying even his existence.
I have been on this Forum for 20+ years and we used to have very heated but enlightening discussions about all aspects and personalities of our deen, but I don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah S A. Reading kalema tus Shahada makes you Muslim,yes but Muawiyah, Yazid and Shimar also had recited the same kalema and brutally assasinated the imam. You all are doing the same except your MO is verbal, in writing and not with bhoota khunjar.
In the number 1,000,000 the zeros represent the knowledge ( the immense knowledge of Biradar) and the one represents the valayat of Aimmat Tahereen and Panjatan paak.
Without the presence of one in the number all the zeros mean nothing. So Biradar all your PhDs and immense knowledge and fancy verbiage is for naught if you use such fowl language for imam and even doubt his existence. I don't want to continue a back and forth on this issue and will end by saying to each his own.
Biradar is one of those kufi muawiya lovers who loved to abuse Imam Ali. Amr ibn AAS was his name. A poet and a sweet talker. He even stripped naked in war to save himself from Imam Ali.

Biradar and his types are same people. Such 2 cent people read tuta foota Arabic and 2 3 Arabic book and claims to be big Arabic scholar lol.

Biradar is just a nali kaa kida who thinks he is cleaned in ganga.

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:10 pm
by Fatema Yamani
Humsafar wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:32 pm
Kaka Akela wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 3:18 pm Hello Biradar, Zinger and Humsafar, thank you for calling us half brained and changing the sex of one of us.
I assume Biradar or one of you 3 is the moderator of this Forum. This explains why you back up each other and no one gets banned for insulting the imam in such horrible & filthy words and also denying even his existence.
I have been on this Forum for 20+ years and we used to have very heated but enlightening discussions about all aspects and personalities of our deen, but I don't remember such abusive and derogatory language used for a descendant of Rasulullah S A. Reading kalema tus Shahada makes you Muslim,yes but Muawiyah, Yazid and Shimar also had recited the same kalema and brutally assasinated the imam. You all are doing the same except your MO is verbal, in writing and not with bhoota khunjar.
In the number 1,000,000 the zeros represent the knowledge ( the immense knowledge of Biradar) and the one represents the valayat of Aimmat Tahereen and Panjatan paak.
Without the presence of one in the number all the zeros mean nothing. So Biradar all your PhDs and immense knowledge and fancy verbiage is for naught if you use such fowl language for imam and even doubt his existence. I don't want to continue a back and forth on this issue and will end by saying to each his own.
For more than 20 plus years this forum is poking fun at the Dais, holding them to ridicule and challenging their legitimacy and authority. And you have been one among many who have been doing that. The question then is, the Dais that you disparage so much, work under the aegis of the Imam, right?

So if you have such incompetent morons for Dais (and you admit they are incompetent morons) then what does it say about the Imam under whose authority and at whose pleasure they operate? Think about it. Imams are supposed to be masoom, that is perfect, so it is not possible that perfect Imams would appoint imperfect Dais. If you insist that they do appoint them then you're attacking the very foundation of your faith. So let us accept that perfect Imams can appoint only good, competent Dais. But since we have moronic and corrupt Dais, it stands to reason to conclude that the Imams have not appointed these morons. Either there's no Imam or if there is one, he doesn't really care. But it is the job of Imam to care, he's the only Guide there is for the faithful. Ergo, there's no Imam.

The faith in the Imamat has put us all in a quandary. If you reject the Dai, you have to reject the Imam too. You can't have it both ways.

Coming of Imam is not just bohra concept but there are hadith on this in both Shia and Sunnis.

Rejecting wrong doing of present leader doesn't makes any difference in coming of believing in Imam.

Do you even understand concept of Islam and leadership? Read more

Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

Posted: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:16 pm
by Fatema Yamani
the best example to prove that the current dai and his followers have nothing to do with Imam is that when their leader is abuse they jump to defend but when the Imam is abused they keep silent, this is a great example that they have abandoned the concept of Imam and now they are just worshiping money and their leader.