Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

[porus]

PORUS

They question the means of calculation of zakaat dues and the accountability of their distribution.

The Daim quoting the Ahle Bayt says that it is the givers responsibility to give to the Imam.
And it is the Imams responsibility to take. He is not accountable to the people.
You quote from Daim, but comfortably ignore the complete text.

1. It is Imam's responsibility to take zakaat. It is his responsibility to ensure that zakaat taken is properly calculated and the calculation is just and fair.

2. It is Imam's responsibility to ensure that distribution is in accordance with God's commands.

Daim quotes some people, not the Imam, that it is the responsibility of the payer to pay and not to question how Imam distributes it. Even if Imam does not manifestly use it in accordance with God's commands, you are to leave that matter between Imam and God. Your job is simply to pay up. Daim does not quote the Quran, Prophet or Imam to support this contention.

In this, Daim is at variance with Quran which states that you should object to any injustice that you see being committed. Thus Imam is totally accountable to people about distribution of zakaat.

Daim tells us of disagreement about distribution of zakaat between Prophet and some people. Prophet did not say "Shut up. It is God's command that you do not question me on this." Instead he offered an explanation. This again shows that Prophet himself felt that he should be accountable to people about zakaat. It is the principle and not the actual statement of the Prophet that is important.

Let me quote Ali ibn Abi Talib from the Daim in connection with the zakaat collection:

"If a man denies that he possesses sufficient property for the zakaat to be leviable, and such property is not obviously to be seen, he should not be forced to say so under oath....The Prophet forbade tax collectors from harassing the taxpayers or using force, or berating them, or causing hardship to them, or imposing more than what they can afford."

Compare this statement from Ameer al-Mumineen with the widespread resentment among Bohras about waajebaat collection process.

[Adam]

Dont mince words........... say "It is according to the Quran AS PER Fatimi Beliefs". Which means, "Quran as understood by the Fatimids".

Fatimi beliefs are in accordance to the Quran

[9:103]
(To the Prophet)
"Take alms (Zakat) of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow,"
Did the Prophet TAKE Zakat from the people? Or did they directly give the 8 categories?
The Quran is universal and for all times. Who will TAKE the Zakat today, just like the Prophet was instructed?

Proggies CLAIM to follow Daim ul Islam, yet their practices are at odds with it.

[anajmi]

Where is the ayah of the Quran which says that you cannot give zakat to anyone but the Imam? This ayah is asking the prophet (saw) to take zakat so that he can purify it. It is not preventing anyone from giving zakat to anyone else. Were you only pretending to know arabic?

By the way, can you also give me an ayah of the Quran which says that the Imam is capable of purifying the zakat just like the prophet (saw)? Also, an ayah which says that the Dai can purify zakat too.

[truebohra]

Where is the ayah of the Quran which says that you cannot give zakat to anyone but the Imam? This ayah is asking the prophet (saw) to take zakat so that he can purify it. It is not preventing anyone from giving zakat to anyone else. Were you only pretending to know arabic?

By the way, can you also give me an ayah of the Quran which says that the Imam is capable of purifying the zakat just like the prophet (saw)? Also, an ayah which says that the Dai can purify zakat too.

Quran is clear guide then why it has instructed prophet (saw) to collect zakat & purify instead of individual? In absence of prophet (saw) who purifies the zakat? Why does Allah ask in Quran to purify zakat & what does it means?

[anajmi]

Actually, Allah has given 8 different ways of purifying zakat in the Quran itself. The prophet (saw) was just one of those ways and the Imam isn't mentioned in any of those ways. Now, let me repeat my question. Can you give me an ayah of the Quran which prevents you from giving zakat to anyone other than the prophet (saw)? The abde idiot Adam said that the Quran prohibits giving zakat to anyone else and I am saying that he is a liar. Can you prove me wrong?

[Adam]

Where is the ayah of the Quran which says that you cannot give zakat to anyone but the Imam? This ayah is asking the prophet (saw) to take zakat so that he can purify it. It is not preventing anyone from giving zakat to anyone else.

So you're saying only if the Prophet took your Zakat you would purify your wealth. But, If he didn't (and you did gave other way) it wouldn't be purified? If no, why did Allah tell the Prophet in the first place?

By the way, can you also give me an ayah of the Quran which says that the Imam is capable of purifying the zakat just like the prophet (saw)? Also, an ayah which says that the Dai can purify zakat too.

The word "TAKE" is universal, for all times, to whoever it is addressed to. (That's your job to figure it out).
Once you accept that the Prophet only can take the Zakat. You will accept that there needs to be someone is is place in every age, to carry out this duty. و لكل قوم هاد.
Until then, you're just a confused Wahabi, who hasn't TRULY given Zakat in the right place. By not giving Zakat, you become a Mushrik in light of the Quran ويل للمشركين الذين لا يؤتون الزكاة 41:7

P.S the proggies are worse of than you. They claim to follow Daim (which supports the above mentioned practice), but they don't act accordingly.

[truebohra]

Actually, Allah has given 8 different ways of purifying zakat in the Quran itself. The prophet (saw) was just one of those ways and the Imam isn't mentioned in any of those ways. Now, let me repeat my question. Can you give me an ayah of the Quran which prevents you from giving zakat to anyone other than the prophet (saw)? The abde idiot Adam said that the Quran prohibits giving zakat to anyone else and I am saying that he is a liar. Can you prove me wrong?

Please can post those 8 ways with aayah indicating the ways mean purifying clearly?
Why does Allah ask in Quran to purify zakat & what does it means?

[anajmi]

Allah has specified 8 categories of people that zakat can be given to. Can you give me an ayah of the Quran which prohibits me from giving zakat to those 8 categories? If you cannot, then you are a liar.

[anajmi]

tb,

If you look at previous posts on this thread, they give the ayah, as well as the 8 categories.

[truebohra]

tb,

If you look at previous posts on this thread, they give the ayah, as well as the 8 categories.

can you pint point those Ayah any where it says 8 ways of purifying zakat

[Adam]

The word "Zakat" means to purify.

[anajmi]

can you pint point those Ayah any where it says 8 ways of purifying zakat

can you pint point the ayah which says zakat is prohibited to anyone other than Imam?

The word "Zakat" means to purify.

Does the word "prophet" mean Imam or Dai?

[anajmi]

Also, if you look at 9:102 and 9:103 together, it is clear that the prophet (saw) is being asked to take zakat only in a specific case of people that fall into the category mentioned in 9:102.

9:102 And [there are] others - [people who] have become conscious of their sinning after having done righteous deeds side by side with evil ones; [and] it may well be that God will accept their repentance: for, verily, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser' of grace.
9:103 [Hence, O Prophet,] accept that [part] of their possessions which is offered for the sake of God, so that thou mayest cleanse them thereby and cause them to grow in purity, and pray for them: behold, thy prayer will be [a source of] comfort to them-for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.

So, the taking of zakat of the prophet (saw) is only for those who are sinning at the same time they are doing righteous deeds. I guess bohras fall into that category. They pray salah and do roza (righteous) and then bow down in front of a human (shirk = sinning). And then the bohras are giving their zakat to this human idol. So instead of getting purified, they are getting more dirtified!!

[Adam]

So, the taking of zakat of the prophet (saw) is only for those who are sinning

Wow. That's an interesting way of distorting the truth.
I'm sure Muslims would love to hear this from you .
Even though all the muslims at the time gave zakat to the prophet (sinners and non-sinners)

[anajmi]

So you are saying that the Quran is distorting the truth? More piss from you I guess!!

All muslims gave zakat to the prophet (saw) because he belongs to one of the 8 categories. But he was ordered to take zakat only from the category mentioned in 9:102. Now take your piss and go home!!

[truebohra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_bXt-BdrvY

[mnoorani]

@truebohra,
Very good Link, Please give this message to Sayedna. Let him spend a little on his community as well. His Sons have been given enough!

"Shahzaada to Shahzaada ,ehna dikra no pan,
salaam na paisa this thayo jaaro tan.
Gaali Giloch man ma rakhi ne,
Bhaisaab na aage haath jori le.
Maara shehar na izzat daar,
ni behurmati thai che varam vaar.
Aa ibadat na mubarak mahina ma
bas deen no vepaar thai yahaa......"

[ghulam muhammed]

Herein below is a post which appeared sometime back on the forum :-

Bohra 'Taxes'

The Dawoodi Bohra religious establisment has seven taxes that are levied on its members during their life-span, before birth and after death. They are as follows:

(1) Sila : Sila literally means keeping contact. This is supposed to be collected as an offering for a hidden Imam who will appear one day & the amount would supposedly be passed on to him. However, it goes into the private coffer of the priest family. This is unique to the Bohras and is not found in any other Muslim community, nor has it anything to do with the teachings of Islam as such.

(2) Fitrah : It actually means payment at end of fasting month of Ramadan. This was ordained by the prophet and is meant for the poor so that they can also partake of id celebrations along with the others. Its quantum is supposed to be a few measures of grains or monetary equivalent thereof and is a humanitarian measure. The general Muslims pay fitrah directly to the needy person a day before id. However, the Bohras are compelled to pay to the priesthood in cash which goes straight to line the silken purse instead of to the needy. The rate is enhanced every year in view of the inflationary pressures.

(3) Zakat : This obligatory payment enjoined by the Holy Qu'ran and the Prophet Mohammad fixed it at 2.5% of ones wealth and income at the end of an year. It is supposed to be spent on the poor, the needy, the orphans. The widows, the travellers, for manumission of slaves and for paying off debts of indebted. As per the Qu'ran it is taken from the rich as an obligatory levy and paid to the poor and needy. It is, as it would be seen, a great humanitarian and welfare measure which was conceived by Islam much before the concept of welfare state came in existence. It was no charity but a compulsory levy for the rich. Generally the Muslims (pay Zakat) directly to the needy in their own country. But the Bohras are not free to do so. The payment is to be compulsorily made to the Syedna who adds it to his family's income without any compunction. The poor and needy among the Bohras and there are hordes of them contrary to general impression cannot dare ask for their share which is their due.

(4) Khums : It literally means one fifth. As per the Qu'ran the one fifth of the war booty was to be taken by the Prophet for his family's maintenance and also for performing functions of a head of community. However, it remained prevalent among the Shia communities. The Shia used to pay one fifth of sudden gain to their Imam from the progeny of the Fatima the Prophet's daughter. The Bohras of course now pay to the high priest who is not Imam ( but a dai i.e. his deputy)

(5) Haqqun Nafs : It literally means payment for the salvation of the soul. It has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. There is no mention of it in the Qu'ran. This was invented by the Da'is. No dead among the Bohras can be buried without paying this tax. On paying this tax the priest gives ruku chitthi (note to God) for the salvation and for entry into the paradise. This note is kept on the chest of the deceased and buried. A Bohra, the priesthood insists, cannot enter paradise without this note from the da'I addressed to God, even if he had been highly virtuous and pious. Payment to the high priest is a must. The extent of payment generally depends on the financial status of the deceased and real hard bargaining is done by the priesthood in the matter.

No Bohra can ever be buried without this payment The relatives of the dead face lot of harassment and forget their own sorrow, and worry more about this payment. It is most inhuman practice and deserves to be strongly condemned. It amounts to dishonouring the dead and the sentiments of the bereaved for personal greed. It can be compared with the sale of indulgences by the Pope during medieval ages. Perhaps it is more inhuman. Many dead bodies remain unburied for hours until the bargaining is finalised.

(6) Nazar Muqam : it is a vow money kept aside in fact for payment to the needy. The present high priest takes it away too and now in the form of compulsory levy. He regularly exhorts the Bohras not to insure themselves or their business as the same is haram (prohibited) in Islam. Instead they should spare vow money and pass it on to him. Every Bohra family is coerced into paying some amount of nazar muqam every year. This also has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam. It was more of an individual belief converted into compulsory levy for the priestly family's unsatiable greed for wealth.

(7) Salam and payment for titles : In addition to all these compulsory levy a Bohra also has to give 'voluntary' personal offering to the high priest which may vary from a few thousand to a million depending on the financial capacity of the person concerned. The high priest may also decide to award a title to any rich or middle class Bohra and demand capricious sum for it which also may run into few lacs to few crores. It becomes for a Bohra a question of his Izzat (social respect and prestige) and he can hardly refuse.

Taking population of the Dawoodi Bohras, over a million, into account it is safe bet to say that the high priest and his family yearly collects hundreds of crores by way of these taxes and 'voluntary' payments. As pointed out above, the collection of these taxes is done very efficiently and systematically. Like the government taxation authorities notices are issued to the 'assessee' and he is required to pay up before the given date. If he fails to pay, marriage, burial or any other function in the 'defaulting' is family held up. If one goes for marriage or burial outside the domain of the high priest's authority i.e. in or through reformists or other community, the person would face total boycott which is most dreaded by the Bohras. Thus the Bohras have no option but to pay the Bohra religious establishment. Thus there is hardly any 'defaulters'. All the payments are of course in black money. More they collect more their coercive power increases.

[Adam]

All muslims gave zakat to the prophet (saw) because he belongs to one of the 8 categories. But he was ordered to take zakat only from the category mentioned in 9:102.

Which category is that?
So the prophet didn't distribute to the other 7? He just got his own share 1/8th? And the people gave the other 7 on their own?
Zakat is haram on the Prophet (just incase you didn't know that).

This just shows your total disrespect for the Prophet of Islam.

The Proggies are of the same view, but they still don't act accordingly.

[anajmi]

The category of the people responsible for collecting zakat, not for themselves but for distribution to the remaining 7.

So the prophet didn't distribute to the other 7?

Who told you that?

He just got his own share 1/8th? And the people gave the other 7 on their own?

Who told you that? One doesn't have to give zakat to all 8 categories at the same time. One can choose to give it just to people who are responsible for collecting and distributing. You shouldn't give to people who collect and keep it for themselves!!

Zakat is haram on the Prophet (just incase you didn't know that).

I know. Now go and find out if your Dai knows that.

This just shows your total disrespect for the Prophet of Islam.

Actually, it shows that you do not know you back hole from your front. Now, stop pissing and go home.

[Adam]

So, the taking of zakat of the prophet (saw) is only for those who are sinning

One can choose to give it just to people who are responsible for collecting and distributing.

I said:

Zakat is haram on the Prophet (just incase you didn't know that).

You said you knew, but still considered the Prophet one of the 8?
If you're referring to the والعاملين عليها ... how do you justify the Prophet is one of them, and its very clear that the عاملين عليها are given a part of the Zakat to use for themselves.
Contradicting terms. Are the people supposed to give the Prophet or not? Is it Haram on the Prophet or not?

Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

[anajmi]

Do you have a brick for a brain? or did your brain pour out of you with your piss?

One of the 8 categories is those who are responsible for zakat collection. They collect zakat for what? To eat it themselves? That is your Dais interpretation.

The correct interpretation is so that they can distribute it to the remaining 7. That is why the prophet was ordered to take zakat. He wasn't ordered to take zakat to build a mahal like your Dai does.

Besides, the prophet (saw) was ordered to take zakat only from the category of people mentioned in the previous verse. If others gave zakat to the prophet (saw) it was simply because they trusted him to distribute it to the remaining 7 categories.

It is haraam for the prophet (saw) to take zakat for himself. This is something that your haraam eating Dai should learn. It is not haraam for the prophet (saw) to take zakat from people to distribute it to the remaining 7 categories.

and its very clear that the عاملين عليها are given a part of the Zakat to use for themselves.

Yeah? How is it very clear?

Now take your piss and go home. And see if you can re-acquire some grey matter by drinking it.

[SBM]

Adam
Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

Seems like Bawa Adam has been converted into a Popat (parrot) who keeps on repeating the same sentence despite the fact many have already stated who do they give Zakat. To refresh you dead pea size brain, many have contributed to help Mumineens in Ahemedabad, BTW
do you read that thread or poverty word does not click your brain cells

[ghulam muhammed]

Herein below is a post which appeared sometime back on the forum :-

Bohra 'Taxes' The Dawoodi Bohra religious establisment has seven taxes that are levied on its members during their life-span, before birth and after death. They are as follows:

(1) Sila : Sila literally means keeping contact. This is supposed to be collected as an offering for a hidden Imam who will appear one day & the amount would supposedly be passed on to him. However, it goes into the private coffer of the priest family. This is unique to the Bohras and is not found in any other Muslim community, nor has it anything to do with the teachings of Islam as such.

(2) Fitrah : It actually means payment at end of fasting month of Ramadan. This was ordained by the prophet and is meant for the poor so that they can also partake of id celebrations along with the others. Its quantum is supposed to be a few measures of grains or monetary equivalent thereof and is a humanitarian measure. The general Muslims pay fitrah directly to the needy person a day before id. However, the Bohras are compelled to pay to the priesthood in cash which goes straight to line the silken purse instead of to the needy. The rate is enhanced every year in view of the inflationary pressures.

(3) Zakat : This obligatory payment enjoined by the Holy Qu'ran and the Prophet Mohammad fixed it at 2.5% of ones wealth and income at the end of an year. It is supposed to be spent on the poor, the needy, the orphans. The widows, the travellers, for manumission of slaves and for paying off debts of indebted. As per the Qu'ran it is taken from the rich as an obligatory levy and paid to the poor and needy. It is, as it would be seen, a great humanitarian and welfare measure which was conceived by Islam much before the concept of welfare state came in existence. It was no charity but a compulsory levy for the rich. Generally the Muslims (pay Zakat) directly to the needy in their own country. But the Bohras are not free to do so. The payment is to be compulsorily made to the Syedna who adds it to his family's income without any compunction. The poor and needy among the Bohras and there are hordes of them contrary to general impression cannot dare ask for their share which is their due.

(4) Khums : It literally means one fifth. As per the Qu'ran the one fifth of the war booty was to be taken by the Prophet for his family's maintenance and also for performing functions of a head of community. However, it remained prevalent among the Shia communities. The Shia used to pay one fifth of sudden gain to their Imam from the progeny of the Fatima the Prophet's daughter. The Bohras of course now pay to the high priest who is not Imam ( but a dai i.e. his deputy)

(5) Haqqun Nafs : It literally means payment for the salvation of the soul. It has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. There is no mention of it in the Qu'ran. This was invented by the Da'is. No dead among the Bohras can be buried without paying this tax. On paying this tax the priest gives ruku chitthi (note to God) for the salvation and for entry into the paradise. This note is kept on the chest of the deceased and buried. A Bohra, the priesthood insists, cannot enter paradise without this note from the da'I addressed to God, even if he had been highly virtuous and pious. Payment to the high priest is a must. The extent of payment generally depends on the financial status of the deceased and real hard bargaining is done by the priesthood in the matter.

No Bohra can ever be buried without this payment The relatives of the dead face lot of harassment and forget their own sorrow, and worry more about this payment. It is most inhuman practice and deserves to be strongly condemned. It amounts to dishonouring the dead and the sentiments of the bereaved for personal greed. It can be compared with the sale of indulgences by the Pope during medieval ages. Perhaps it is more inhuman. Many dead bodies remain unburied for hours until the bargaining is finalised.

(6) Nazar Muqam : it is a vow money kept aside in fact for payment to the needy. The present high priest takes it away too and now in the form of compulsory levy. He regularly exhorts the Bohras not to insure themselves or their business as the same is haram (prohibited) in Islam. Instead they should spare vow money and pass it on to him. Every Bohra family is coerced into paying some amount of nazar muqam every year. This also has nothing to do with the teachings of Islam. It was more of an individual belief converted into compulsory levy for the priestly family's unsatiable greed for wealth.

(7) Salam and payment for titles : In addition to all these compulsory levy a Bohra also has to give 'voluntary' personal offering to the high priest which may vary from a few thousand to a million depending on the financial capacity of the person concerned. The high priest may also decide to award a title to any rich or middle class Bohra and demand capricious sum for it which also may run into few lacs to few crores. It becomes for a Bohra a question of his Izzat (social respect and prestige) and he can hardly refuse.

Taking population of the Dawoodi Bohras, over a million, into account it is safe bet to say that the high priest and his family yearly collects hundreds of crores by way of these taxes and 'voluntary' payments. As pointed out above, the collection of these taxes is done very efficiently and systematically. Like the government taxation authorities notices are issued to the 'assessee' and he is required to pay up before the given date. If he fails to pay, marriage, burial or any other function in the 'defaulting' is family held up. If one goes for marriage or burial outside the domain of the high priest's authority i.e. in or through reformists or other community, the person would face total boycott which is most dreaded by the Bohras. Thus the Bohras have no option but to pay the Bohra religious establishment. Thus there is hardly any 'defaulters'. All the payments are of course in black money. More they collect more their coercive power increases.

Over and above the above taxes there are a few more which are to be compulsorily paid by bohras to kothar. They are :-

1) Dai's Salam.
2) Imam-uz-zamaan Salam.
3) Amils Salam.
4) And Now the Mansoos' Salaam.

All of the above are paid in the broad heading "Wajebat" (meaning Compulsory). Till recent past the bohras were also required to pay towards construction of Saifee Hospital for quite a long period of time which elders on the forum can confirm.

[Adam]

and its very clear that the عاملين عليها are given a part of the Zakat to use for themselves
Yeah? How is it very clear?

1. Because عاملين عليها are referred to in the same context as the others (beggars, etc etc), no where does it differentiate that عاملين عليها only take and distribute and it isn't for themselves. ( The Zakat is haram on the Prophet and he is in charge of taking ZAKAT and dividing it between the "8" categories. Contrary to YOUR beliefs (confused), the Prophet is NOT a part of the عاملين عليها. That's where your mistake lies)
2. Quoting from a Sunni Tafseer of Tabari (so that it would burst your bubble), explaining the above للعاملين عليها الثمن من الصدقة (The عاملين عليها get 1/8th of the Zakat). The Prophet isn't one of 8. He is above the 8 and in charge of distributing all 8 in accordance to 9:103

But, Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

[anajmi]

no where does it differentiate that عاملين عليها only take and distribute and it isn't for themselves.

That is where your lack of understanding capability comes into the picture. The complete stupidity in your arguments is mind numbing.

If a zakat collector is to keep the zakat for himself, then all of the 8 categories are zakat collectors. Why did Allah mention 8 separate categories instead of just one?

Now stop pissing too much or even your head will flow out with your piss.

[porus]

9:102 refers to all of us since we are all conscious of having sinned. In 9:103, Prophet has been commanded to accept their sadaqa (zakaat) and pray for them to make them feel clean and to purify them (through their sadaqa).

Prophet accepted zakaat in person. However, he nominated aamils to be zakaat collectors for those (living afar) who could not offer zakaat in person to Prophet. 9:60 states that these collectors can be compensated with a share of zakaat collection.

So, in this debate, I must side with Adam. Prophet has stated that zakaat is haram for ahl-e-bayt. Hence Prophet cannot be included among the collectors mentioned in 9:60.

[porus]

But, Who do the Proggies give Zakat to?

Stop being tiresome, Adam. You have already answered this for yourself. They do not offer zakaat in accordance with Fatimid beliefs as you understand them. End of story. In this, let us agree to disagree.

[anajmi]

9:60 states that these collectors can be compensated with a share of zakaat collection.

Then I guess there are two ways to interpret that ayah. The zakat collectors can collect zakat for their personal compensation, or for the distribution of it to others. But someone has to pay the salaries of the zakat collectors. The prophet (saw) was also appointed a zakat collector by Allah. Then why did Allah make his salary haraam to him?

A zakat collector might qualify for zakat or he might not. If he doesn't qualify for zakat, then he cannot accept zakat. But he still can accept a salary that might be paid out of zakat funds. But the point to be noted is that it is not zakat. It is a salary. So, it is not haraam for the prophet (saw) is it? And by the way, zakaat is haraam not only for the prophet (saw) but also for anyone who has wealth above the zakat limit as per whatever calculations you choose to follow.

9:102 refers to all of us since we are all conscious of having sinned.

Not really. It refers to those people who have mixed their good deeds with bad deeds. If it referred to all of us, then there was no need to mention the additional qualification. Ya Ayyahul Ladhina Aamanu should've sufficed.

[anajmi]

I was just giving it some thought. What does it mean to mix good deeds with bad deeds? Consider a person who runs a brothel for a living, but goes to the masjid 5 times a day. He is mixing good deeds with bad deeds. Or consider a person who earns his money through riba but eats only halaal food. He is also mixing his good deeds with his bad deeds. So it is a specific category of people and not just all of us.