Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

[accountability]

I usually do not comment on these things, as these are impossible to logically discuss. but now it seems that time has come to call spade a spade. without any reservation or obligation, i do think that our religion as practiced now is a religion of ignorant, mesmerize, hypnotized and brain washed and brain dead people. they have not yet come of age. and i do not think they will ever grow. badri janab, a self proclaimed defender and interpretor of fatimid doctorine is committing crimes according to law of any country which is signatory to united nations charter of right. if said person has courage and he thinks that he is right, he should declare it to authorities, and be prepared for legitimate consequences.
Hamsafar i could understand your carefullness, but sometimes you have to stand up for what is right. FGM is cruel barbaric and ingnorant practice. there is no evidence that prophet, ali, or his off springs ever did it their daughters. prophet had a coptic concibine named mariah coptic, gifted by egyptian coptic king, prophet accepted her as she was.
this is crime agaisnt humanity, all preprators should be dealt with according to law. it is an ignorant and curel custom which should be abondoned immediately. Ali had concibines, married thirteen times or twelve times after fatima, from various spectre of society, even from bani ummayads, his staunch enemies. he gifted his son shehr bano daughter of yazd gard, a zorastarion born and raised in kings palace. according to encyclopedia britanica, imam moiz had berber wives, not from hashimid dynasty.
daim ul islam as it is available right now is just hear say, i know for sure, that there is not a single authentic version of the said book in its originality exists. the one that we have is not in book shape, only written documents compiled by previous dais.

it is high time to stand up for such practices, so that our childeren can be saved from this brutality.

[Safiuddin]

Badrijanawar is foolish and cruel enough to impose such heinous practices on
the women of his family - a tragedy for him and them. These idiot and moronic
bohras have descended into abuse and human rights violations. Some obscure
book written several hundred years ago by misogynists states women should be castrated -
so he decides that he should follow the farmaan of the imams. If the imams had commanded
that you cut off your ear with a knife dipped in water from the well of zam zam, would he be willing to do that?

These cult members are similar to fundamentalist Christians that pick and choose various biblical
passages to promote their crimes and hatred against others - I'm sure all of these ancient
books also gave directives for other parts of life - instructions which they are conveniently ignoring.
And the point they are missing is that they are not using their own brains to decide whether something is egregious or
acceptable. I could use his line of thinking and say the "religion" that I subscribe to promotes the forcible shaving of
men with beards.
All over the educated Islamic world scholars, religious heads, and political figures have denounced
FMG. The Muslim Women's League denounced it. The grand mufti of Egypt forbade it.
And here we have badri bhaisaab who thinks that it's OK to mutilate women.

What a despicable and craven excuse for a human being.

[zinger]

Surprising as it may seem to you, and contrary to what your opinions are about us, my friends and i have been advising people about going against it for the last 10 years now.

Thankfully, in some cases we have succeeded, and in some, we have failed.

Even 10 years ago, our decision was based more on psychological aspects than religous. Even today, i still dont know what the truth is. Is it allowed or not, all i know is that if it causes more harm than good, then it deserves to be buried

Dear Zinger,

Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. and Ameer Al Momineen Mola Ali a.s. has categorically commanded to have female and male khatna. Nabi and his wali know's better about human body than all put together including members of this forum. Should you wish to be abided or not abide by Sunnat of Prophet s.a.w.w. as prescribed in Daimul Islam it is your choice. As fas as Dawoodi Bohra Ismailiya Shia is concerend it is the must for both Reformist and Shabab.

Dear Badrijanab bhai,

Aap bilkul sahi keh rahe hain. Nabi aur unke Wali mujhse sa, kya poori duniya se zyaada jaante the, magar, agar mera dil kucch kahega ke yeh shaayad galat hain... to janab, dil ki sunu ya dimaag ki!

humne yeh debates internally bhi bahut kiye hain, but in the end, it boiled down to what we felt was right, in our hearts.

If however, you can provide proof, like Sbm bhai has asked, if the Nabi or Ali Maula also asked the women in their house to undergo circumcision, and we follow it to the T, then we shall gladly accept our mistake and repent.

But for that, janaab, you will also need to prove that aaj hum jo kar rahe hain, woh unke hi mutaabiq hain.

thanks

[Bohra spring]

Badrijanab please tell me this is your personal view and not the Diais mission..this is terrible awareness that Dawoodi Bohras cannot shake this FGM off.

GM, AZ, Humsafar or Admin on behalf of PDB what is your official position on this matter? Do you actively try to discourage this practise?

[Humsafar]

Hamsafar i could understand your carefullness, but sometimes you have to stand up for what is right.

Accnty, my stand on this issue is pretty clear and I have stated it quite a few times - FGM is an evil practice and must be stopped. With badrijanab what I was trying to do is draw him out to make a categorical statement as to the order of importance of FGM in the hierarchy of Bohra rituals. Of course he failed to answer the question. But we know, and pours has confirmed it with his excellent post, that FGM is not terribly important in Bohra doctrine. It is not a "divine" command as badrijanab has been claiming. Bohra women can be spared this torture and still qualify to be acceptable Muslims.
It is strange and ironic that badrijanab and the mullah types like him (on both sides of the divide) never insist so much on "Justice" and "compassion" which have been repeatedly and insistently enjoined by the Quran, but shout themselves hoarse on pushing an obscure and optional ritual which - by all counts - lacks both justice and compassion. This is an inescapable quality of a mullah: he will insist on practice because his simple and conditioned mind can only understand concrete, tangible things. And he ignores principle - something abstract and conceptual - which involves thinking and which his simple and conditioned mind cannot grasp.

GM, AZ, Humsafar or Admin on behalf of PDB what is your official position on this matter? Do you actively try to discourage this practise?

Reformist Bohras do not have an official position on this matter, but many reformists are opposed to this practice. I'm told that many reformist parents in Udaipur do not subject their daughters to this evil custom.

[badrijanab]

GM, AZ, Humsafar or Admin on behalf of PDB what is your official position on this matter? Do you actively try to discourage this practise?

Reformist Bohras do not have an official position on this matter, but many reformists are opposed to this practice. I'm told that many reformist parents in Udaipur do not subject their daughters to this evil custom.

The official stand of PDB in reference to Shariyat is exactly and ditto like Shabab, Khatna is the matter of Shariyat. Humsafar sahab, why are you afraid and dishonest?

Reformist Bohras cannot have any official positions in any religious matter. Their faith is 100% same like Shabab.

Reformist only fighting for the non-religious causes like: demanding accounts from parasite Kothar or demanding local jamat management locally and not to be superimposed by Royal Family.

I can bait, if poll is taken among all the Reformist who in majority resides in Udaipur: 99% of votes will go in favor of Shariyat i.e. hail to khatna for both genders. Humsafar is speaking lie that many reformist are opposed to khatna - have you done any survey? Because your loyalty towards your official faith of DB is weak that doesn't mean that all reformist are like you!

Humsafar you are NOT Bohra (Reformist) Mumin. You are only fighting for the hate of Kothar; which I can empathize with you but you know to be part of Reformist Bohra fold, I am sure the condition must be that one has to pursue Bohra faith. Your post infers you are not inclined towards our Bohra faith thus you do not qualify to be member of Reformist mumineen group.

[Humsafar]

badrijanab,
When I said reformists have no official position on this, it was implied they do not rule on religious matters. This I've stated so many times elsewhere. Although I've no reason to be dishonest but I'm afraid of arch conservatives like you.
Whether I'm a Bohra mumin or not is not for you to judge. But I'm a born Bohra and part of Bohra reformist group and this - no matter how many scriptures you invoke - you cannot take away from me. You are so steeped in mullah mentality that all you can think of is exclusion and disqualification. How are you different from the Kothar that ex-communicates? Thank God the majority of reformists are liberal minded and have successfully kept characters like you in check.

I can bait, if poll is taken among all the Reformist who in majority resides in Udaipur: 99% of votes will go in favor of Shariyat i.e. hail to khatna for both genders. Humsafar is speaking lie that many reformist are opposed to khatna - have you done any survey?

I said I was told, I haven't taken a poll. Have you? But you still assert that 99% will favour FGM. Who is being dishonest now?

[badrijanab]

I said I was told, I haven't taken a poll. Have you? But you still assert that 99% will favour FGM. Who is being dishonest now?

I have not taken poll. Based on my experience, I assert that 99% will favour Khatna.

[badrijanab]

badrijanab,

Is it not possible to interpret the sayings of Muhammad and Ali ibn Abi Talib (as reported in Daimul Islam) regarding fgm as their personal opinion and therefore, neither farD nor sunna. Furthermore, Daimul Islam does not justify Ali's recommendations with reference to the Quran.

The word for male circumcision is 'khatana' and that for female circumcision is 'khafD'.

Daimul Islam quotes Prophet as saying: الختان الفطرة . That is, "male circumcision is natural".

Prophet further states: لا يترك الأقلف في الإسلام حتى يختتن و لو بلغ ثمانين سنة . That is, "Foreskin should not be left in Islam even if (male) circumcision has to be performed at 80 years of age."

Neither of the above sayings refers to Female Circumcision (khafD).

Daimul Islam quotes Ali as saying: يا معشر النساء إذا خفضتن بناتكن فبقين من ذلك شيئا فإنه أنقى لألوانهن و أحظى لهن عند أزواجهن That is, "O women, if you circumcise your daughters, leave a bit therefrom. This is better for their color (health?) and they will be more appealing to their husbands."

Ali further states: أسرعوا بختان أولادكم فإنه أطهر لهم و قال لا تخفض الجارية قبل أن تبلغ سبع سنين . That is, "Hasten to circumcise your sons for it is purer for them. But do not circumcise your daughters until they have reached seven years in age."

In his first quote, Ali is saying that "IF" you circumcise your daughters....

This does not sound as if he is ordering it or pronouncing it as an FarD, an Islamic obligation.

Similarly, he commands circumcision for sons but is not emphatic about daughters. Considering the word "IF" in the first quote, Ali only states that "if you decide to perform circumcision on your daughters, do not do it before she is seven years old.

Thus, as far as Daimul Islam is concerned, there is no obligation either from Prophet or Ali to perform female circumcision. However, it can be argued that there is a strong recommendation for male circumcision. Even the latter has not been backed by any ayat of the Quran.

Hence, why do we give this an importance of FarD or Sunna when there appears to be no such emphasis by Daimul Islam?

Dear Porus sahab,

I will do further research and then will revert to you. Thanks.

[Bohra spring]

Humsafar while we wait for consensus from reformist on what to do, this is the time to make astand against FGM collectively . This tests us whether we can rise together on an issue . Tomorrow it will be another fundamental issue then what ?

Intellectual orthos are watching, can we walk the talk? The stakes are now too high.

If Pdb does not make a stand a new independent front will be created from both sides who wish this FGM to stop and will fragment the community further eg pro FGM abdes and PDb vs anti FGM orthos and pdb.

I have made up my mind I am anti FGM , whatever it takes or consequences.

We cannot be seen as contradicting the ideals of true to reform where we know it is abuse, unnecessary , yet we seat on the fence and let rituals and customs float around.

Let us take this leadership position and ban or create a program to educate families that it is not required and is illegal and individuals risk prison or public humiliation however painful the journey and not fear discouraging new pdb recruits. This is a clear cut easy win to prove we can reform and modernise, nothing is too sacred or undiscussed

[Humsafar]

I agree with you and have always supported this cause. Making it "official" and campaigning against is something which the leadership will have to take up. In all reformists jamats leaders must start talking about it and raise awareness of the people. But from my experience I can say that this is a very sensitive subject - involving female sexuality - and people are not willing to talk about it, however, from what I've heard many reformists have quietly stopped practicing it.

[anajmi]

What are the views of S. Insaf and Asgarli Engineer on this topic?

[Muslim First]

Badrijanab Saheb
Dear Porus Saheb
I will do further research and then will revert to you. Thanks.

Compare Br Porus's post on Diams Ahadiths and my post on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:26 pm

You Also promised to do reserch on "Imamamat in Quran", Janab Saheb.

[Bohra spring]

Dear Admin and PDB management. Let have a referendum on it?

Lets call a vote on the FGM issue. Please help create a voting page or we use the like button. We may want to ask members to login before voting to avoid vote manipulation.

If a generic website is to be used and PDB can assist let hold a public vote where by a certain date as many bohras orthodox, abdes and progressives to vote anonymously. We all can circulate the voting links to encourage voting. This way all bohras can see whether PDB is there for true reform if the community mandates.

Depending on the vote results the leaders of both groups will get the mandate to make changes or keep the status quo for the majority .

CAUTION: If leaders whether they be from Kothar or PDB fail to execute the public mandate they fail to represent the wishes of the majority Bohra community and should step aside.

The vote should be sincere and I have tried to described

Why Vote:
Female Genital Mutilation is a historical ritual practised in Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra faith. Recent legal regulations in jurisdiction where Bohras reside have required that this practise is unacceptable and in many cases illegal and potentially a crime.

Recent reliable and wide spread research by cross section of Islamic scholars have also proven that it is an optional ritual with little or limited religious benefit or authenticity.

There is a civilised societal conscious issue that with the above reasons it is deemed to be an abuse of female children in our community who are unable to provide consent to undergo the practise and hence in the interest of the innocent children welfare and protection the community need to hold off the ritual which is an irreparable procedure and when the children become mature adults let them choose their obligations and requirements as per their faith.

Hence there is acknowledgement that the community has to decide as a whole whether to continue the practise for reasons of historical consistency or change course with time and new knowledge without fear or regret.
If people need more analysis then we can give more time and the abde and progs can do more research.

Bohras please vote

Vote Yes if you want your leaders to take actions to STOP FGM
Vote NO if you want to continue the practise of FGM as prescribed by historical instructions.

[pheonix]

Dear Admin and PDB management. Let have a referendum on it?

Lets call a vote on the FGM issue. Please help create a voting page or we use the like button. We may want to ask members to login before voting to avoid vote manipulation.

If a generic website is to be used and PDB can assist let hold a public vote where by a certain date as many bohras orthodox, abdes and progressives to vote anonymously. We all can circulate the voting links to encourage voting. This way all bohras can see whether PDB is there for true reform if the community mandates.

Depending on the vote results the leaders of both groups will get the mandate to make changes or keep the status quo for the majority .

CAUTION: If leaders whether they be from Kothar or PDB fail to execute the public mandate they fail to represent the wishes of the majority Bohra community and should step aside.

The vote should be sincere and I have tried to described

Why Vote:
Female Genital Mutilation is a historical ritual practised in Ismaili Dawoodi Bohra faith. Recent legal regulations in jurisdiction where Bohras reside have required that this practise is unacceptable and in many cases illegal and potentially a crime.

Recent reliable and wide spread research by cross section of Islamic scholars have also proven that it is an optional ritual with little or limited religious benefit or authenticity.

There is a civilised societal conscious issue that with the above reasons it is deemed to be an abuse of female children in our community who are unable to provide consent to undergo the practise and hence in the interest of the innocent children welfare and protection the community need to hold off the ritual which is an irreparable procedure and when the children become mature adults let them choose their obligations and requirements as per their faith.

Hence there is acknowledgement that the community has to decide as a whole whether to continue the practise for reasons of historical consistency or change course with time and new knowledge without fear or regret.
If people need more analysis then we can give more time and the abde and progs can do more research.

Bohras please vote

Vote Yes if you want your leaders to take actions to STOP FGM
Vote NO if you want to continue the practise of FGM as prescribed by historical instructions.

You make me laugh. Voting in matters of religion and faith. Votes of morons like you doesn't matter and doesn't make anything right or wrong. Even, if the whole world voted against it, it wouldn't matter a jot. Even if you are somehow able to abolish the practice from all humans it wouldn't change the sharia. It would just make all humans wrong. People like you are no different from the people of the Sakeefa who VOTED for the goat(bakra).

[Al Zulfiqar]

here is an interesting article forwarded me by a friend:

The Issue of Circumcision
Did You Know Prophet Muhammad Wasn’t Circumcised?
by Dr. David Liepert
It’s not surprising, but it is disappointing. After a German District Court Judge partially banned pediatric circumcisions in Germany earlier this month (when a young Muslim boy almost bled to death after a botched one) Muslims, Jews, Christians, religious rights advocates, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel erupted in condemnation,consternation, Nazi allusions and apologies respectively.
I wonder though, whether Muhammad might have backed the German Judge this time. Because Muhammad wasn’t circumcised, and most Muslim scholars agree Muslims don’t actually have to be either.
So why are Muslims the single largest religious group still practicing ritual circumcision? And why do so many Muslims and non-Muslims alike think it’s an obligatory part of Sharia Law?
Well, since authoritative Islamic documents agree Muhammad considered it as much a part of being a good Muslim as trimming one’s nails or moustache, and since circumcision’s not even mentioned in the Qur’an, you should probably just think of this as Part 2 in my series exploring the vast gulf between Al-Sharia, Allah’s “path to the waterhole” and so called “Sharia Law”.
A few years ago, when a convert Imam asked me if I thought he should be circumcised, I felt perfectly safe giving him a resounding “No!”
Now, the fact is he wasn’t asking me for an Islamic opinion; he was an Imam, after all. No, instead he was asking my opinion as a friend and a physician-confidante: he wondered if it would make him a better husband and a better lover, and so I reviewed the data with him.
* No effect on premature ejaculation. * No provable improvement in a female partner’s sexual experience. Turns out it’s a matter of personal preference. * No provable effect on a man’s sexual experience either, and no effect on sex-drive, except maybe a slight reduction in pleasure from masturbation: something he assured me didn’t matter to him. * And since his wife wasn’t HIV positive, the only possible medical benefits I could tell him he might see from receiving a prophylactic circumcision were a slightly reduced chance of transmitting STDs back to her, including a slightly lower risk for her contracting cervical cancer from HPV,which would only matter if he had more than one partner. Which he assured me he didn’t, but then he went on to get himself circumcised anyway, for religious reasons.
But the fact we were having that conversation at all really highlights how much confusion there is regarding Muslim ritual circumcision, how little it actually has to do with the religion itself and how much it has to do with the way pre-Islamic practices influenced the development of sharia.
To make a long storyshort, Jewish, Christian and pagan Arabs before Muhammad all practiced circumcision, because Abraham was circumcised when he was 80, and Ishmael was circumcised when he was 13. And so it continued regardless of the Quran or Muhammad, and eventually got grandfathered into Islam as well, which should have been relatively harmless. But at some point we started doing it to infants and children, and in some places even to infants and children of both sexes, something that has absolutely no place on Al-Sharia, or in Muhammad’s Islam.
And that’s why Jahili/ignorant ritual pediatric circumcision joins my growing “ridiculist” (thanks Anderson!) of pseudo-religious practices Muslims should really take asecond look at. Because when our faith is abused contrary to God’s intent and Muhammad’s example, it makes a mockery of our religion, and those abuses only persist because of our own laziness and inertia, which are two more things that won’t stand any of us in good stead come Judgment Day.
Now, quite frankly, I’m not actually anti-circumcision: In fact, I’m circumcised myself, because I was raised as a Christian. And if I hadn’t been, when I became a Muslim I might have chosen to be circumcised then because that’s how they did it in the old days. Muslims traditions declare Muhammad was born without a foreskin, and so many of his companions chose to have theirs (partially) removed to symbolize their commitment to Muhammad’s place in the prophetic succession, and Allah’s Islam.
However, I am completely, unequivocally and absolutely Islamically against anyone being circumcised against their will, or being circumcised because they’ve been coerced on false religious grounds. And so although I’m in favor of religious freedom, I’m against ritual infant circumcision and female genital mutilation alike: a place where, as a Muslim, I’m very content to be.
Because while a few of his followers had themselves circumcised upon their conversion to Islam, apparently not all of them did, which is why both the Hanafi and Maliki Schools (which comprise the vast majority of Muslimsworld-wide) don’t consider it obligatory, merely highly recommended. However, that recommendation is made to adults, not children!
Up until very recently many Muslims performed it between the ages of 7 and 13, when a boy declared himself Muslim and moved onto adulthood: a ritually limited procedure followed by a party. How much fun would that party have been if the procedure was a bloodbath?
In fact, the Abrahamic practice of infant circumcision began with the Covenant, recorded in Genesis17, also known as Bereishit “In The Beginning” which that book also makes plain was made with solely the line of Israel. It’s an everlasting covenant, promising greatness, blessings and the land of Canaan in return for—among other things—their 8-day-old-foreskins.
So what does that mean? Well, I think the most obvious thing is that neither God nor Muhammad intended Muslims to replace Jews in the Holy Land. Otherwise, he would have been circumcised on his 8th day, and so the rest of us would have been circumcised on our 8th days too. And the thing is, Israel gets the land in the Quran too. Al-Maidah 5:21 states clearly, speaking tothe people of Moses, “O my people, enterthe Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you and do not turn back and become losers.” And Katab Allahu, which most Qurans translate as “assigned,” actually means something closer to “Ordained by God-Most-High.”
However, there’s a precondition that makes that fact good news for everyone, including the Palestinians. Because as Genesis 18 explains, to make it all come out right for everyone, God requires that Israel govern the land righteously, according to God’s principles of equality and justice for all his descendents, regardless of their religion.
“Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do? Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation, and all nations on earth will be blessed through him. For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right and just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised him.” (italics and bolding mine)
There’s no mention of one religion reigning supreme anywhere in there: Abraham wanted what’s best for ALL his children, Jew and non-Jew alike. So in addition to their foreskins, the Covenant requires Israel govern themselves according to Tzedakah, “God’s Benevolent Justice for All,” too. The Quran and the Bible both promise it’s going to happen someday: frankly, I think that’s pretty big news, all on it’s own.
But getting back to circumcision, given all that, ask yourself, why did the rest of us start doing it to infants? I think in part perhaps it was because we weren’t sure they’d do it to themselves when the time came, but isn’t that the whole point?
Isn’t it meaningless, if we trust our faiths, ourselves and our children so little, that we can’t trust them to make their own good choices when their own time comes?
And what does it say about us as parents, that we’d rather circumcise them without their consent when they’re powerless to defend themselves than face that risk?
So Kudos to the German judge, from a Muslim who’d rather submit his own “self” to God instead.
----------------------------------------------------------
Dr. David Liepert Chairs the Calgary Shura Council, serves as VP and official spokesperson for the Faith of Life Network,co-Chairs the Abraham's Tent Interfaith Dialogue and is a National Board member of the Canadian Islamic Chamber of Commerce. He has advised the Canadian Imams Council regarding Interfaith matters, and is also author of Muslim, Christian and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share.

[anajmi]

There a dozens of holes in this article. Just as an example, do you wait for a child's consent before taking him to get his polio shot? or the dozen other shots that the child is supposed to get? How about waiting for a child's consent before sending him off to school? Parents do what they think is right for their children. Religion and circumcision fall into that category. Parents do not have to wait for the child's consent to do what they think is right for the child.

[accountability]

Polio shots cannot wait, school cannot wait. Circumcision can wait till child grows up. there is no specific age prescribed for circumcision.
I dont know how authentic that article is, but if it is true then it raises a whole lot of question about sharia as we know it.
But one thing that make sense in the article is, If Quran is an ultimate message and covered everything from big bang till day of judgement, that why sharia is not based on quranic revelations, which are divine. When Quran has not ordained to circumcise, why emphasis on it.

Sunnah may be an example to lead a good muslims life, but not compulsory. Even prophet said, we dont have to follow him in every aspect of personal life, in a hadith in sahi bukhari he is said to have prescribed camel unrine as a cure.
nas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"
Now we dont practice it, if it does not make us lesser muslim, then why would other things that are in sunnah, but not practiced, which is not ordained in Quran will make us a lesser muslim.

[badrijanab]

The Issue of Circumcision
Did You Know Prophet Muhammad Wasn’t Circumcised?
by Dr. David Liepert

This is 100% true. Prophet Mohammed s.a.w.w. ki khatna nahi hoovi thi.

Khatna me excess skin ko kata jata he taki sharmgaah apne original state me aaye aur jo skin maa ke gharbh me rehne ke karan us per aa gai he usko kata jata he.

Rasool Allah s.a.w.w. ki khatna isliye nahi hoovi kyonki he was born perfect, yani un per excess skin nahi thi. Isiliye Khatna ki jaroorat hi nahi padi.

[badrijanab]

nas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

Yeh fabricated aur forged hadees he.

Ahle Bayt ka principle he: Paani, Aag aur vegetation per sab ka right he, provided woh kisi ki private property na ho, fire exception he.

Siffin ki ladai me Mawiya ne Mola Ali a.s. per paani-bandh kar liya tha. Mawiya to Ali a.s. ko qatl karna chahata tha. Magar Ali a.s. ne Mawiya ko hara diya, magar Mola Ali a.s. ne unlike Mawiya paani bandh nahi kiya balki yeh order diya ki jis tarha se Islam ka lashkar (Ali ka) paani le ussi tarha se Mawiya ke lashkar ko bhi paani do. Aisa case Imam Hussain a.s. ke saath bhi hoova.

Mola Ali a.s. ne apne qatil ko doodh pilaya tha. Ab Nabi sahab eik muzrim ko paani pilane se mana kar de! Yakeenan above hadees nakli he.

[anajmi]

Polio shots cannot wait, school cannot wait. Circumcision can wait till child grows up. there is no specific age prescribed for circumcision.

Circumcision gets more difficult with time. If your parents had waited for your consent, you wouldn't be circumcised right now!!

Forget about not following sunnah, some people try to wiggle their way out of clear cut commands in the Quran. Fasting is a case in point. When we were talking about fasting, you wanted a clear sunnah. Now, we have a clear sunnah for something and you want to go to Quran. It is people like you who create these issues where none exist.

If you read the article from the author closely, he is obviously an Israeli stooge who is being paid to interpret the Quran to justify the jewish capture of the holy land.

[Al Zulfiqar]

Some endorsements on the credibility of Dr. David Liepert.

Dr. David Liepert, a prominent North American Muslim, recounts his own journey from Christianity to become a convert of Islam and what he learned in the process. Liepert also candidly explores how and why Islam has gone from being a religion that sustained a vibrant multicultural and multi-religious civilization to the one we have today. In the end, he offers hope that Muslims, Christians, and Jews can live together in peace and that the happy ending we all crave might be closer than we think.

Here is what some prominent personalities have to say about David Liepert:

"The Abrahamic religions of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have a great deal in common with respect to their advocacy of peace, justice, the brotherhood of man, compassion, generosity to the less fortunate, honesty, and the honoring of the family. Yet down through the centuries there is a long history of violence between all three of these communities that continues to be manifest today in acts of terrorism, war, and discrimination. Must it always be so? That is the question addressed in the pages of Muslim, Christian, and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share by Canadian author David Liepert, who draws upon scripture, history, his many years of experience and expertise with respect to interfaith relations, and his own personal journey from being a Christian to converting to Islam. Peace is not only possible, but ultimately inevitable—if we are willing to work at it and practice the tenets that are the foundation of all three faiths. Highly recommended for community library 'Religion/Spirituality' collections, Muslim, Christian, and Jew: Finding a Path to Peace Our Faiths Can Share is especially recommended reading for anyone concerned with the continuing parochial animosities that have caused so much misery in the name of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam." — Midwest Book Review

"Reading Liepert's book left me feeling rejuvenated... Liepert remains hopeful that we can change, that we can live together in peace, that instead of being the problem, our religions might become the solution - if we're willing to listen to what they actually say... I highly recommend this book." — Sheila Musaji, founder and editor of The American Muslim

"A fascinating read. . . . His reflections on the teachings and interrelationship of the Abrahamic traditions provide fresh and valuable insights for religious leaders, students, and all who are interested in interreligious understanding." — John L. Esposito, author of The Future of Islam and Professor of Religion and International Affairs at Georgetown University

"Dr. David Liepert is a brilliant new North American Muslim voice. He has put much work into his tireless efforts, building bridges between our faiths and civilizations. I know his commitment to dialogue, respect, and understanding among different faiths, and I hope this work will be another step towards that vision." —Dr. Imam Hamid Slimi, Chairman of the Canadian Council of Imams

"One danger of interfaith dialogue is that differences in theology or dogma can be so smoothed over or diluted that the integrity of each religion is sacrificed for the sake of an ecumenical consensus. Dr. David Liepert's Muslim, Christian, and Jew takes a very different path. As much a fascinating spiritual autobiography as a plea for interfaith understanding, Liepert (who has been engaged in interfaith dialogue for many years) confronts rather than waters down differences in a textual criticism of the three Abrahamic religions. This often takes the form of an internal dialogue, particularly when dealing with his own conversion from an evangelical Christianity to what might be described as an evangelical Islam. The binding thread to this book is a recurrent and impassioned plea for the practitioners of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism to transcend their undeniable differences and relatively recent past histories on the basis of that ‘Common Word' shared by all three religions—love of God and love of neighbor—and to apply this core conviction existentially and not just affirm it." — S. Abdallah Schleifer, Reviewer for the Oxford Journal of Islamic Studies, Distinguished Professor of Journalism at the American University in Cairo, former Cairo bureau chief for NBC News


Dr. David Liepert: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam

Name one thing Muslims and Christians share? Their level effort pointing fingers elsewhere whenever pedophilia comes up. Catholic priests are an obvious and easy target, but when my 16-year-old daughter raised $26,000 in her high school to combat North America’s growing child-sex-slavery trade, her grandmother complained that she wasn’t doing enough about misogyny and abuse in Somalia, Saudi Arabia and the Sudan. Although she wasn’t very clear how Marley would get there. My pen on the other hand? We’ll see.
Another similarity? Neither Muslims nor Christians blame Christianity for the problem, but the same can’t be said for Islam. You’ve got to give pedophiles their props though. Most sane people consider them something beyond abhorrent, and yet on this issue they have convinced even Christian leaders to climb into bed with them, and with some Sunni and Shiite scholars to boot. And it’s time to pull the sheets back and see what’s really going on for the sake of women and children everywhere.
There are really only three reasons to insist — as so many do — that Aisha was only 9 years old when Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam (PBUH) married her: Either you are such a crazy Islamophile that you are willing to go to your grave insisting Muhammad could do whatever he wanted, or you are such a crazy Islamophobe that you want to insist he did, or you are such a weirdly religious sex-crazed pervert that you hope accusing him makes it OK for you to do it too.
There is absolutely no other reason to either make or repeat that disgusting claim. Aisha was married in 622 C.E., and although her exact birthday is unknown, Abu Ja’far Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari recorded that it happened before Islam was revealed in 610. The earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, Abu Muhammad ‘Abd al-Malik bin Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’sSirat Rasul Allah — The Life of the Messenger of Godrecords that Aisha accepted Islam shortly after it was revealed — 12 years before her marriage — and there is no way she could have done so as an infant or toddler.
Furthermore, it is a matter of incontrovertible historical record that Aisha was involved in the Battles of Badr in 624 and Uhud in 625, in neither of which was anyone under the age of 15 allowed.
Finally, Imam Wali-ud-Din Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Khatib, dead for more than 700 years, recorded in the biographical section of Miskat al-Masabih that Asma, her elder sister of 10 years, died at the age of 100, 72 years after Aisha’s wedding. This makes Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage at least 14, and at the time of her marriage’s consummation almost 20.
Although those dates make it obvious that Aisha’s child-marriage couldn’t have taken place, according to Arab tribal traditions of the time it could have, and apparently it can still happen in Arabia today. A case that recently raged through the international press and Saudi courts — of an 8-year-old girl who had been married by her father to a 47 year-old “friend” to settle Dad’s debts — shows how little things there have changed. However, that’s despite Islam, not because of it.
Prior to Muhammad in Arabia, it is common knowledge that females were considered property, and that female infants were often discarded like refuse when born. However, one of Islam’s primary revelations was that men and women had equal status before God, with different though equal rights and obligations. Another was God’s condemnation of Arab female sacrifice, proclaiming that girl-children were just as valuable as boy-children to God and to humankind.
Obviously, those ignorant tribal prejudices and practices persist. However the most important reason Aisha’s child-marriage couldn’t have happened is this: Muhammad couldn’t do anything any more than any other Muslim can. Muhammad was the finest example of true Islamic living there could ever be, and having marital relations with a woman of less than the “age of majority” — an age that varies from culture to culture but presupposes the ability to become pregnant, have children and make decisions for those children as an adult — was, is and always will be completely contrary to the example set by our Prophet, and the message of Islam’s Holy Quran.
The Quran is clear that a divorced woman cannot marry another man until she completes a period of waiting to confirm she isn’t already pregnant, and such an impediment would be unnecessary were pregnancy not possible. However, the roots of Islamic pedophilia lie in exactly what the verse (At-Talaq — “The Divorce” 65:4) about that waiting period says. Yousuf Ali’s English translation is a pretty good approximation:
Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum fa’iddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yada’ana hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yaj’al lahu min amrihi yusran.Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
Now, I’ve discussed the verse with progressive Islamic scholars and learned that “Lam Yahidna” negates menstruation in the past tense and the jussive mode and means “did not menstruate,” with the expectation that the woman should be menstruating, since that natural cycle is part of her normal state.
Then again, I know that there are Islamic scholars from Arabia and Pakistan — another place with long traditions of both child-marriage and misogyny — and Islamophobes from around the world who interpret it as if it says “has not menstruated yet,” with the jussive mode implying the girl is impatient to begin, ensuring that it seems to perpetuate the pre-Islamic practice of having sex with pre-pubescent girls.
Between those two incredibly divergent positions, how does one choose?
When Muslims face difficult questions, we have the Sunnah, an Arabic word meaning “the acts of Muhammad,” to guide us, and that’s why Aisha’s age is such an issue. But the thing is, whether Aisha was still a child when her marriage was consummated has never been a question: all scholars agree that occurred after Aisha’s menarche. Islamophobes inevitably claim otherwise, but they do so based on a completely fictitious interpretation of events.
And that means the problem that we should be addressing is the root one, that of men devaluing and disenfranchising girls and women: Husbands and fathers treating girls as property and forcing them to marry against their will.
And in that, the condemnation of the Quran and Sunnah are very clear: The Quran states a woman’s consent is essential, and the Sunnah confirms that both Aisha’s betrothal and consummation occurred with Aisha’s enthusiastic agreement. In fact, some even imply she went against the initial wishes of her Dad!
Those guides unequivocally confirm that men and woman have equal status before God, equal though different rights when wed, and that a woman cannot be given in marriage without her express approval. Absent that, the Sunnah also records that Muhammad dissolved marriages on the woman’s testimony alone. That is what Muslims should be proclaiming, rather than the purported right of Muslim men to marry underage brides.
The cause of the confusion is simple. Imam Bukhari, compiler of the famous Hadithcollection (Hadith in this context meaning stories about Muhammad) Sahih Bukhari included one recalling that Aisha said she was 6 when betrothed and 9 when she was wed. However, Bukhari included another recording that Aisha was a young girl and remembered when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed — 9 years before her wedding — as well. Obviously, both Hadiths can’t be true, and that’s the problem with relying too much on Hadiths, and too little on the Quran and common sense.
Even if you believe — as I do — that the Quran is a divinely protected book, the same cannot be said about all Hadiths. In fact, there is even an Ayah in the Quran that warns about the dangers of thinking otherwise. Luqman 31:6 cautions:
Wamina alnnasi man yashtaree lahwa alhadithi liyudilla aaan sabeeli Allahi bighayri aailmin wayattakhithaha huzuwan ola-ika lahum aaathabun muheenun.But there are, among men, those who purchase idle Hadiths, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.
While there are Muslim scholars who claim that Luqman 6 is actually a warning about musical performers like Madonna, there are others who respond that unless those performers are Muslim nothing they do throws ridicule on any path but their own. And personally, I think the Ayah is instead a frank and literal warning about the dangers of trafficking in false and idle Hadiths, just like it says.
I also can’t think of a better set of examples of what it’s talking about than the damage that’s been done by confusion over Aisha’s age of consummation.
I have read a great deal of speculation about why Hadiths that make Aisha seem immature might be wrong. Most of them came out of what is now Iraq, through one specific source named Hisham ibn Urwah. And it’s worth noting that his student Muslim — who collated the Hadiths of Sahih Muslim — specifically chose not to include any from his respected teacher after Hisham went to Iraq. Some say it’s because Hisham’s memory became spotty, others say it was because Iraq was a political hotbed of “anti-Aisha” feeling and some evil men fabricated Hadiths in Hisham’s name.
But none of the speculation matters. The only thing you need to realize is that both the tales Bukhari included can’t both be true. That fact, put together with the Quran’s warning, means that Hadiths can’t be as authoritative to Muslims as the Holy Quran and the Sunnah are.
I’ve been told otherwise by many good Muslims, and I know there are even places in the world where you can spark a riot by saying otherwise, but I think that’s part of what Luqman warns us about. I love Hadiths for the illuminating light they can shine on the interpretation of a difficult passage, or on my own attempts navigating a difficult juncture in my life, but I’ve also participated in Islamic dinner events that have fallen apart discussing the Hadith condemning Muslims who smell their food before they eat it.
Now, the role, authority and validity of individual Hadiths is not an issue that is going to be put to rest by someone like me; there is an entire scholarly science devoted to it. And personally, I think that debate and discussion, both between scholars and “grass-roots” Muslims, is useful and instructive whether the Hadiths being discussed are actually “true” or not, as long as that discussion is respectful of both our religion of Islam and our fellow participants.
But while we’re on the subject of how Muslims settle Islamic controversies, there’s an important question that begs asking. I actually understand the Islamophobic focus on false and embarrassing Islamic interpretations: they’re just trying to score points the best way they know how, with tools we Muslims have given them. But all these facts I’ve shared are just common knowledge that’s easily verifiable and my conclusions little more than simple common sense.
If Muslim scholars are so concerned that Muslim practices follow Islam’s revelation and Muhammad’s memory, and if they truly want to defend Islam and our Prophet, then what have they been doing for the last thousand years?
No question men (and women) can be pigs when it comes to sex and gender issues — when I’m asked to explain why we can’t eat pork I generally explain the problem might be cannibalism — but religion is supposed to help us combat those dark urges not pander to them.
And while we’re on the subject of marriage, the Quran doesn’t condone wife-beating either. In pre-Islamic Arabia, men did not need permission to beat their wives. And although the Arabic rootDzaraba does mean “beat” it also means “heal.” Dzaraba denotes action for a higher purpose, such as “striking (or minting) a coin,” or “striking out on a new path.” Coupled with the Quran’s warning to husbands that God is watching everything we do, and a reminder that we must serve our marriage rather than ourselves, particularly after proclaiming married men to be tasked as providers and protectors rather than rulers all in the same passage, in Muhammad’s day Islam actually took that permission away, despite misogynist Muslim and Islamophobic claims to the contrary.
With all the suffering in Somalia, so much of it caused by misapplied and misinterpreted misreadings of Islam, why are Somalia’s scholars focusing on sexualizing hand-holding?
How is it that Saudi Arabia still allows child marriage when they’ve known Aisha’s real age all along (the biographies I reference are written in Arabic, for Heaven’s sake!), or that Pakistan’s rape laws cleave to British colonial precedent?
In Pakistan, a woman can be punished for being raped if the rapist denies her claims. But when Muhammad was faced with a woman who told him she’d been raped, he had the man in question executed on the testimony of the woman, whom he pronounced blameless, alone.
The simple truth is that all our Muslim scholars since Islam began have been human, limited by the human ability to pander, avoid conflict by bowing to popular opinion, or make mistakes. And when scholars fail their sacred trust, to transmit Islam with fidelity, they lose their right to any authority, Islamic or otherwise, and frankly, it’s up to the rest of us to do a better job of keeping them honest.
Because if any of us care about things like “truth” and “fidelity” as much as so many of us claim, “Too busy to check the facts out for myself” just doesn’t seem like much of an excuse.
What’s my bottom line? The age Aisha attained before she married the Prophet is one issue we have to put to rest — for the sake of children everywhere. There is absolutely no question that Aisha was an adult when she consummated her marriage with Muhammad of her own free will, and she lived out her life in the earliest days of Islam the un-harassed and proudly participatory equal of everyone, just like every other man, woman or child under God.
That is our Muslim legacy that we should be striving to live up to, and anyone who claims otherwise is simply crazy, one way or another.

Original post: Rejecting the Myth of Sanctioned Child Marriage in Islam

[Bohra spring]

Anajmi by that you imply we do force our children to avoid them making the choice later, yet it is only a Sunnah ? At the same time somewhere we state there is no compulsion in religion.

Is child abuse in bohra a sin ? Is it a bigger sin than breaching a sunnah

Science is proving it is wrong, our religious documents are stating it is for optional and cosmetic reasons and yet just not to think and reevaluate the position makes me wonder whether we are sincere reformists

Az If it is true that we are doing this to male children primarily to appear as the prophet? Wow what shocking revelation ! Do you see which path this leads us , The prophet some people claim had shoulder length hair, he had 4 wives, he kept camels, he wore traditional clothes, ate a certain diet, lived in Saudi Arabia , ..So why are not packing up and migrate to Saudi Arabia , empty our fridges, throw out the LCD screens, aha saya kurta, soneri topi, masala,

Are we bohras hypocritical ? Then why do we ask for any freedom or choice for anthing else ? this is a watershed moment, so in one side we are not prepared to defend the right of a girl child because she cannot demand, yet we want to fight for freedom to wear hijab, choose our religios leaders, choose how much tax we should pay, we want to stop poverty, ....are we selfish

[Al Zulfiqar]

Sorry to post this here, but since I am on the subject of circumcision, esp FGM, and the name of Dr. David Liepert came up, I thought I would post one more article from him on the joint declaration by the Imams Council of Canada, copied below:

Thanks to al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, Islamophobia is at an all-time high. Violent extremists have succeeded in distorting the common perception of who Muslims really are. Most North Americans now equate Islam with violence, and think Muslims are bent on world domination.

In reality, the overwhelming majority of Muslims are an exceptionally peaceful and tolerant people who seek to live in harmony and happiness with their non-Muslim neighbors. But as the saying goes, all it takes for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing.

The Canadian Council of Imams Declaration is a major step by the good people of Islam to stand up and take back their religion and their religion's public image from fanatics.

The members of the Canadian Council of Imams are the scholarly elite of mainstream Islam in Canada, and they decide what Muslims are taught in our mosques. The CCI Declaration affirms that human life is more sacred than religious laws, and that Islam promotes good citizenship, gender equity and the right of an individual to choose how he or she dresses, lives, acts and believes. This is the first time an entire country of Muslim leaders has come together to declare that they will continue to teach a common set of positive virtues that reflect the true nature of Islam.

There is no denying that Muslims in other times and other places have believed other things, or that there are some Canadian Muslims who hold divergent views. However, misogynist, violent and aggressive or anti-Semitic interpretations of Islam are not mainstream views, and Canada's mainstream Imam's scholarly and enlightened understanding of our religion effectively refutes every extremist interpretation, too.

I debated a non-Muslim Islamic "consultant" in Virginia last month, who told me that the Quran commands Muslims to fight with Jews and Christians. I replied that the verse he quoted came in response to a rumored army that had gathered in the north bent on Islamophobic genocide. The verse wasn't telling Muslims when to fight: they marched north expecting a bloody battle to the death. At the time it actually prevented bloodshed by telling Muslims when to stop fighting.

The "consultant" also quoted a scholarly treatise in support of violent expansionary jihad from the eighteenth century, and I reminded him that most of mainstream eighteenth-century Christianity also perverted the Bible to support the slave trade.

During a different discussion, another so-called expert claimed Muslims were bent on destroying churches. I told her about Caliph Umar, a Muslim warrior who refused the Christian Patriarch's offer to pray in Jerusalem's main cathedral after Umar had conquered the city, "so future Muslims would not declare it a mosque, that it remain a church forever."

It all got me wondering whether people who dislike Islam are really the best ones to provide your information about either Muslims or Middle Eastern history.

The CCI Declaration states, "We believe in peaceful coexistence, dialogue, bridge building, and cooperation among all faiths and people for the common good of humanity," because any imam worth his beard will tell you that Muhammad supported freedom of religion, too.

For example, when a Christian group that Muhammad was meeting within his hometown of Medina asked permission to leave the city to perform Christian rites, he invited them to use his mosque instead, not because he approved or agreed with their beliefs, but because he respected their intention to worship God in the best way that they knew how.

Likewise, the Canadian Council of Imams Declaration is an important response to both al Qaeda and radical fear; it reclaims Islam from all those who crave conflict, while at the same time reaching out to non-Muslims, and it empowers Muslims who love Islam, America and Canada together, proclaiming that we can find a shared path to peace that includes us all.

Read the Canadian Council of Imams Declaration below:

We, the imams who have signed below, hereby affirm and declare the following fundamental points:

1. We believe in the oneness of Allah (God) and in the oneness of humanity and that all the Messengers of God, including the final Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), have taught human beings how to come closer to God and closer to one another. Islam is a religion of nature and humanity, one that teaches that a person cannot be a good Muslim until he/she becomes a good human being. All human beings are equal, and all of them are the children of Adam and Eve (peace be upon them). The best Muslim is the one who is good to his/her family and neighbors and one who avoids harming others with his/her hand or tongue.

2. We believe in peaceful coexistence, dialogue, bridge building, and cooperation among all faiths and people for the common good of humanity. Islam does not permit the killing of innocent people, regardless of their creed, ethnicity, race, or nationality. The sanctity of human life overrides the sanctity of religious laws. Islamic rulings do not -- and should not -- contradict natural laws. Islam is a religion that promotes peace, justice, equality, dignity, and freedom for all human beings.

3. We believe in the preservation of all the necessities of life. Islam upholds the sanctity of religion, life, intellect, family/society, and property.

4. We believe that the well-being of our fellow citizens is the well-being of Muslims, and that the well-being of Muslims is the well-being of our fellow citizens. Being law-abiding people is part of the Islamic practice, and following the pristine teachings of Islam leads to good citizenship.

5. We believe in gender equity and each man and each woman's divine right to education, social contribution, work, and treatment with respect and dignity. Men and women complement each other, and healthy relationships between them are essential to a healthy society.

6. We believe that it is the right of every individual adult person to determine for themselves their conduct towards and within their society (for example, in matters of dress or good manners), and their personal conduct in matters of faith and belief as well, as long as their conduct does not threaten the common good. Likewise, we believe that every society must be allowed to express and celebrate humanity's profound cultural diversity, as long as the expression of that diversity does not include the compulsion of any individual to violate their own human rights, or their personal values, or their human nature, or otherwise threaten the common good of all people.

7. We believe and strongly encourage Muslims to seriously engage in civic life and contribute to their communities and society as much as they can.

Signatories:

Imam Dr. Hamid Slimi (Canadian Council of Imams/Faith of Life Network)
Imam Ismail Fetic (Bosnian Islamic Centre of Hamilton)
Imam Dr. Arafat Elashi (Scholar & Lecturer in GTA)
Imam Dr. Ziyad Delic (Canadian Islamic Congress, Ottawa)
Imam Habeeb Ali (Canadian Council of Imams, Secretary)
Imam Abdul Hai Patel (Canadian Council of Imams, Interfaith Relations)
Imam Dr. Mohammad Iqbal Al-Nadvi (Alfalah Islamic Center, Oakville)
Imam Hafiz Faizan-ul Haq (West End Islamic Center, Mississauga)
Imam Yusuf Badat (Islamic Foundation of Toronto)
Imam Omar Subedar (The Islamic Society of Peel, Brampton)
Imam Ashraf Baddar (Faith of Life Network)
Imam Abdullah Hatia (Islamic Association of Saskatchewan, Regina)
Imam Mohamed Arif Desai (Masjid Darul Iman, Markham)
Imam Prof. Abdulvehab Hoxha (Albanian Muslim Society of Toronto)
Imam Sikander Ziad Hashmi (Islamic Centre of Kingston)
Imam Mohamed Nafis Bhayat (Jame Masjid, Mississauga)
Imam Mahomed Iqbal Subrathi (Markaz-ul-Islam Masjid, Edmonton, Alberta)
Imam Anver Moallim (Jami Omar - Ottawa)
Imam Michael AbdurRashid Taylor (Islamic Chaplaincy Services Canada)
Imam Dr. Aly Hindy (Salaheddin Islamic Centre, Toronto)
Imam Tarek Abu Noman Mohammad (Islamic Center of Cambridge)
Imam Zamir Ahmed Chohan (Islamic Foundation of Toronto)
Imam Jamal Hammoud (Muslim Council of Calgary)
Imam Abdul Raaoof Kabar (Muslim Council of Calgary)
Imam Ahmad Abdul Kadir (Muslim Council of Calgary)
Imam Hafiz Asim (Brampton Islamic Centre)
Imam Ahmed Ibrahim (Brampton Muslim Community)
Imam Ahmad Kutty (Islamic Institute of Toronto)
Imam Abdool Hamid Akbar (Islamic Institute of Toronto)
Imam Nedzad Hafizovic (Bosnian Islamic Centre, Toronto)
Imam Shabir Ally (Islamic Information Centre, Toronto)
Imam Ayman Al-Taher (International Muslims Organization of Toronto)
Imam Mohamad Khatib (Muslim World League, Toronto)
Imam Muhammad Kamaruzzaman (Danforth Islamic Centre & Baitul Aman Masjid)
Imam Refaat Mohamed (Barrie Mosque)
Imam Alaa Elsayed (Islamic Centre of Canada-ISNA)
Imam Khaled Alazhari (Ottawa Mosque)
Imam Mohammad J. Qazi (Masjid al-Farooq Islamic Centre, Mississauga)

[anajmi]

Anajmi by that you imply we do force our children to avoid them making the choice later, yet it is only a Sunnah ? At the same time somewhere we state there is no compulsion in religion.

This is what happens when people do not study, or even read, carefully. They are unable to spot the differences even between apples and onions.

[anajmi]

Thanks to al Qaeda and other terrorist groups, Islamophobia is at an all-time high. Violent extremists have succeeded in distorting the common perception of who Muslims really are. Most North Americans now equate Islam with violence, and think Muslims are bent on world domination.

The basic premise itself is wrong. That is probably the reason why we will never fix this problem. I do not believe that it was violent extremists who distorted the common perception of who muslims really are and neither should you. Most North Americans now equate Islam with violence because of steady diet of crap fed to them by their government on a daily basis. Violent extremism was created to distort this picture. If you look at terrorism suspects caught within the US over the last 10 years, all of them were created by law agencies. It wasn't Al-Qaeda who brainwashed these people. It was America's own law agencies!! Why doesn't Fox news tell North Americans that Islam doesn't tolerate violence and to separate terrorism from Islam? Are they that stupid? Why are we trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist while ignoring the one that is glaring at us in our faces!!

[Muslim First]

nas said, "Some people of 'Ukl or 'Uraina tribe came to Medina and its climate did not suit them. So the Prophet ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy, they killed the shepherd of the Prophet and drove away all the camels. The news reached the Prophet early in the morning and he sent (men) in their pursuit and they were captured and brought at noon. He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them." Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder, became infidels after embracing Islam and fought against Allah and His Apostle . (Sahih Bukhari, Ablutions (Wudu'), Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234)"

Yeh fabricated aur forged hadees he.

Ahle Bayt ka principle he: Paani, Aag aur vegetation per sab ka right he, provided woh kisi ki private property na ho, fire exception he.

Siffin ki ladai me Mawiya ne Mola Ali a.s. per paani-bandh kar liya tha. Mawiya to Ali a.s. ko qatl karna chahata tha. Magar Ali a.s. ne Mawiya ko hara diya, magar Mola Ali a.s. ne unlike Mawiya paani bandh nahi kiya balki yeh order diya ki jis tarha se Islam ka lashkar (Ali ka) paani le ussi tarha se Mawiya ke lashkar ko bhi paani do. Aisa case Imam Hussain a.s. ke saath bhi hoova.

Mola Ali a.s. ne apne qatil ko doodh pilaya tha. Ab Nabi sahab eik muzrim ko paani pilane se mana kar de! Yakeenan above hadees nakli he.

The Shia persons who are making a lot of fun saying that this was yet another one of Bukhari’s fabrications. I am worried. Did the Prophet really ask his followers to drink camel urine?

Answer:

t
Why should a Shia person worry himself over such Hadith when the Shia Hadith have even more disturbing narrations in them?

Ibn Babawaih al-Qummi reports the following Hadith in his book “Manlaa Yahdurhul-Faqeeh” (For Him Who Has No Access to A Scholar):

“His (the Imam’s) feces are far better smelling than the fragnance of musk.” [Reported by Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Sa’eed al-Kufi who narrated from Ali b. al-Hasan b. Fidaal, from his father from Abul-Hasan Ali b. Musa al-Ridha] Source: “Manlaa Yahdurhul-Faqeeh” (For Him Who Has No Access to A Scholar), vol.4, page 418, narration # 5914

And we also read what Grand Ayatollah Akhond Mulla Zainul-Abideen al-Galbaigani wrote in his book “Anwaar al-Wilayah”:

فليس في بول المعصومين ودمائهم وأبوالهم وغائطهم استخباث و قذارة يوجب الاجتناب في الصلاة ونحوها كما هو معنى النجاسة ، ولا نتن في بولهم وغائطهم بـل هـــمــا كالمــسك الأذفـــــــر ، بــــــــــل مــــن شـــــرب بولهم وغائطهم ودمهم يـــــحـرم الله عليه الـــنــار واســتــوجــب دخول الجنّة

“There’s nothing (impure) in the urine of the infallibles: their blood, urine and feces (are free of) any filth or dirtiness…nor there is any stink in their urine or feces, rather both are like the Musk. Nay, (in fact) whoever drinks and eat their urine, feces and blood, Allah forbids fire on him, and cause him to enter paradise…the urine and feces of the Imams doesn’t carry impurities or stench, but they are like musk, and whoever drank their urine and feces and their blood, Allah will make Hell fire Haram on them and their admission to Heaven becomes must.” (Anwaar al-Wilayah, p.440)

In the most reliable Shia book of Hadith, Al-Kafi, we read the following:

Abu Jafar said: “For the Imam there are 10 signs: He is born pure and circumcized….and if he farts the smell is of musk.” (Al-Kafi 1/319 Book of Hujja - Chapter on Birth of Imam)

With such Hadith in their literature, we kindly ask the Shia to get off their high horse. Having said that, two wrongs do not make a right, and we are not saying that an absurdity in the Shia literature allows us to also have an absurdity in our literature. So why does the Ahlus Sunnah have such a Hadith in their books about the Prophet prescribing the Sahabah camel urine? The answer is as follows:

Urine therapy, alternatively called “Urotherapy” or “Urea Therapy”, has been utilized for many centuries. Even today, it is considered a very popular form of alternative medicine or homeopathic medicine, and is used to cure many pathological conditions, including edema, hormonal imbalances, and even cancer. Let us see what the American Cancer Society (ACS) has to say on this matter:

Read rest of response here
Hadith About Drinking Urine in Sahih Al-Bukhari
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... urine.html

[Bohra spring]

So todate the vote is

Yes = Az, accountability, BS
No = badrijanab, anajmi

What about the rest ?

[anajmi]

Vote for what?

[londonwala]

The issue of female circumcision has definitely become very worrying for the dawat. London amil announced in full majlis on syedna Taher Saifuddin’s milad that our community is under attack by its enemies on human rights grounds on the issue of fgm. He said that our official position is that we do not practice it or encourage it in countries where it is against the law. He has made similar announcements in smaller gatherings.
The arrests in Australia have really scared bohras worldwide. They know that a jail sentence is very possible for anyone convicted of this act in western countries, and that applies to the parents as well as the perpetrators. The fact that the bohra version is a very small cut, much less severe than the circumcisions carried out by Somalis, is not a valid argument in western courts.
I feel sorry for those bohras arrested in Australia. They are no different from the many thousands of bohras all over the world who blindly follow this practice because we are told that it must be done. I am sure that, like most bohras, the parents and perpetrators are good people and loving parents.
Female circumcision will become much less common now among bohras, definitely in the west, and probably in other countries too, as this is now a highly public issue worldwide. Those women who have carried out the practice for years are now unwilling to do so because they are scared of going to jail. And it is risky for bohra parents in the west to take their girls abroad to have it done, because that is also a crime.