The True Imam - How would you verify?

[zinger]

what we have done is very, very small. the results will take some time. we can reach out to a few hundred people, of whom we can convince about a couple, but its just a matter of time now.

What bs is this, what is this very very small thing you have done? Why do I feel you will answer In some spin twisted question and query. How predictable you have become. THEN NO SENSE IN ANSWERING YOU. BYE.

Are you naive and ridiculously petty or you have been planted by the kothar to try to interfere with the reform strategy or criticism on this blog, GO FIGURE IT OUT FOR YOURSELF!

you must be finding it uplifting and sense of achievement that you have got in to some debate with hard line reformist, and think you are almost winning by having an intellectual argument and making reformist explain and justify their purpose and aspiration. I DONT CARE WHAT YOUR PURPOSES AND ASPIRATIONS ARE. IM JUST TELLING YOU THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING THE GOOD FIGHT BUT DONT CROSS WIRES BY GETTING ABUSIVE TOWARDS THE DAI

My true colours are already mentioned, I will be like a parasite eating up the kothar influence , you will see me silently destroying the credibility of zadas, 1 will multiply into several,, leaking information, creating doubt in the abdes faith, directing them to this site, grumble, nose up to any shabab , trap them into committing errors and scandals, and when the time is appropriate test whether bohras are ready for a revolt , if not again go make into stealth mode, try again until, over and over and then hopefully one day....boom! Inkululeko! GOOD FOR YOU. ALL THE BEST. BYE!

May be next time I will ignore you and treat your contribution as graffiti ! MAYBE YOU SHOULD. WILL SAVE US TIME FROM BOTHERING TO REPLY TO ONE ANOTHER AND DO SOMETHING MORE CONSTRUCTIVE

[Al Zulfiqar]

brother bohra spring,

this is what you wrote: "To respond to Az what have I done or do, I will expose the kothar."

i had asked that question to zinger and not to you.

[Bohra spring]

brother bohra spring,

this is what you wrote: "To respond to Az what have I done or do, I will expose the kothar."

i had asked that question to zinger and not to you.

Az I know my response intended to use your question to z and demonstrate we can also walk the talk and put him in his place....brother I respect your style and intent in keeping these guys in check , don't at all take it the wrong way my response to you as aggression towards you. If so sorry!

[Al-Muizz]

brother bohra spring,

this is what you wrote: "To respond to Az what have I done or do, I will expose the kothar."

i had asked that question to zinger and not to you.

Az I know my response intended to use your question to z and demonstrate we can also walk the talk and put him in his place....brother I respect your style and intent in keeping these guys in check , don't at all take it the wrong way my response to you as aggression towards you. If so sorry!

"I will expose the kothar." That is funny, man....really funny! Talk is cheap, and dare I say, free:) When someone has nothing important to say, then say say absolutely nothing important;)

[anajmi]

kothar is being exposed on this board pretty much every day and it hasn't cost a dime to expose them. And it doesn't look like you have anything important to say do you?

[Muslim First]

. Get back to "The True Imam :How would you verify?"

[Al Zulfiqar]

this has been discussed threadbare on this thread. all the cows came home a year ago but the abdes persist in debate.

i for one, would simply ask the imam, when i encounter him, if he agrees with the behaviour and actions of the present dai. if he gives a resounding NO, then he is the true imam.

q.e.d.

[badrijanab]

I am starting this topic with a hope that some genuine intellectual debate would result that would serve to either answer the questions rising out of this topic or generate enquiries within the progressive fold to find answers to these questions. The participants ofcourse are free to post their views and comments with whatever amount of knowledge that each one possesses on the subject. However, a sincere appeal is made to all (mainstream DBs and progressives) to desist from countering other participant’s views with mere abuse or ridicule in the absence of a rational argument to respond with.
If any person is averse to debating on this topic, I urge him/her to please ignore this topic and share his views on other threads without leaving any comments/slang on this topic.

I also request the participants to follow the below rules for this topic in order to avoid derailment of the subject:
1. Share your views based on authentic DB beliefs, whether Mainstrream DB beliefs or Progressive beliefs. But has to be from DB belief set. Hence, anyone not adhering to any of the above please excuse this topic. You are free to share your views elsewhere on this forum or start your own thread. Thus, beliefs from Isna Ashari school, Sunni schools, wahabi school are not to be expressed on this topic.
2. No slang/abuse/ridicule from any participant. No name calling on atleast this topic.
3. Any argument has to be countered with sober counter-argument with some logical sense. Participants kindly keep their nonsense with them, if any.
4. Any quotes from literature/history pertaining to this topic have to be mentioned from DB sources only of any period/age, but compulsorily DB.

Appeal to Admin to delete any post that does not adhere to the above (whether from mainstream DBs or progressives).


The common point between mainstream DBs and progressives on the subject of Imamat is that we all believe that this event i.e. the zuhoor of the Imam from the progeny of Fatima and Ali will take place in future. It is not a matter of if, but when.

Subject of Discussion: How would the mainstream DBs and Progressives verify the Imam-uz-Zaman’s identity upon his Zuhoor?

This is a non-issue for the Mainstream DBs since we believe in the infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq.The Dai-e-Mutlaq being the absolute and rightly appointed guide by the Imam during seclusion of the Imam, he is assigned with this task for the community. And the mainstream DBs have nothing to be concerned about on this matter. And the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word would be final on the matter. I would invite Adam & Profastian to correct me on the above in case of any discrepancy.

So, now the question is how are Progressive going to verify the identity of the Imam upon his Zuhoor?
1. Firstly, how would the progressives come to know that the Imam is about to come out of his seclusion? Who would inform them of this ?
2. Since, the Progressives do not believe in the authority and infallibility of the Dai-e-Mutlaq of mainstream DBs, are they going to accept the Dai-e-Mutlaq’s word on this?
3. If not, what is the mechanism that the progressives have laid down for this purpose?
4. Is the Central Board of progressives assigned with this task?
5. If yes, are all progressives united on this point?
6. If the Central Board of progressives is assigned with this task what is their qualification to undertake such a task? Are the progressives certain about the infallibility of their Central Board?
7. How would the progressives know who is the rightful Imam if there are multiple claimants to the title at one time? Such events have happened in the past where there have been multiple claimants to Imamat at the same time.

There is not much on this subject to be debated from the mainstream DB point of view as the matter is completely assigned to the Dai-e-Mutlaq of the time and his authority on the matter is final for us.

Progressive point of view is invited strictly in light of the above topic of discussion.

Poori duniya Imam ki mohtaz he, Imam kisi ka mohtaz nahi he.

Syedina Burhanuddin (tus) khud kehte he ki woh Imam-uz-zaman ke GHULAM he. Ghulam maalik ka mohtaz hota he, Malik ghulam ka mohtaz nahi hota => Burhanuddin sahab; Imam-uz-zaman a.s. ke mohtaz he, aur Imam-uz-zaman a.s. Burhanuddin sahab ke mohtaz nahi he. Lihaza, jab Imam-uz-zaman a.s. ko apna zuhoor karna hoga to woh Burhanuddin/Muffaddal sahab ke mohtaz nahi honge ki unse apna attestation karaye.

Remember after 'Satr' when 11th Imam Molana Mehdi a.s. did zuhoor he punished Abu Abdullah, the Dai who went corrupt like present Kothar! So, when Imam do next 'zuhoor', please beware and correct all that is materially incorrect. But I know the cycle of 'Satr' is in state of severe times, Kothar will not correct themselves, contrary they will further pursue their present modus-operandi indeed!

When sun rise, people with eye and sanity can recognize. When Imam-uz-zaman will do zuhoor, all will come to know including Bohra Shabab, Bohra Youth, Sulaimani, Alvi, Ithna Asheri, Sunni's, Wahabi's, Salafi, etc.

Your contention that until Burhanuddin sahab will attest Imam-uz-zaman you/Bohra Shabab will not recognize Imam - your this theory makes Imam mohtaz of Dai!!! That is not possible. Burhanuddin sahab is GHULAM of Imam, recognition of Imam is not mohtaz of Burhanuddin sahab approval. When Imam Mehdi a.s. broke 'Satr' and did 'Zuhoor' - whole world came to know naturally - like when sun rises in clear sky everybody with eye and sanity come to know. So, sooner or later all sister sects of Bohra including Progressives will come to know about 'Zuhoor' of Imam and will give him their Misaaq. Inshallah.

In this thread your bad motive was to make issue out of no-issue. Nevertheless, when Imam-uz-zaman does zuhoor Kothar will be stripped of their illegitimately collected wealth like Imam Mehdi a.s. did or like Ameer Ali Momineen Mola Ali a.s. did. We pray that may Imam-uz-zaman may sooner does 'zuhoor' and like Dai Abu Abdullah was punished on the zuhoor of Imam Mehdi a.s. in the same fashion may the Imam-uz-zaman punishes all the present corrupt people.

Progticide, you mentioned that Dai is infallliable - Prove it from Fatimi Dawat book before Syedina Tahir Saifuddin? Especially try to give reference from Syyedina Hatim (r.a.) Tuhfat al-Qulub, in the end of this book there is 'risalah' on qualification of Dai.

[progticide]

Remember after 'Satr' when 11th Imam Molana Mehdi a.s. did zuhoor he punished Abu Abdullah, the Dai who went corrupt like present Kothar! So, when Imam do next 'zuhoor', please beware and correct all that is materially incorrect. But I know the cycle of 'Satr' is in state of severe times, Kothar will not correct themselves, contrary they will further pursue their present modus-operandi indeed!

When sun rise, people with eye and sanity can recognize. When Imam-uz-zaman will do zuhoor, all will come to know including Bohra Shabab, Bohra Youth, Sulaimani, Alvi, Ithna Asheri, Sunni's, Wahabi's, Salafi, etc.

Your contention that until Burhanuddin sahab will attest Imam-uz-zaman you/Bohra Shabab will not recognize Imam - your this theory makes Imam mohtaz of Dai!!! That is not possible. Burhanuddin sahab is GHULAM of Imam, recognition of Imam is not mohtaz of Burhanuddin sahab approval. When Imam Mehdi a.s. broke 'Satr' and did 'Zuhoor' - whole world came to know naturally - like when sun rises in clear sky everybody with eye and sanity come to know. So, sooner or later all sister sects of Bohra including Progressives will come to know about 'Zuhoor' of Imam and will give him their Misaaq. Inshallah.

In this thread your bad motive was to make issue out of no-issue. Nevertheless, when Imam-uz-zaman does zuhoor Kothar will be stripped of their illegitimately collected wealth like Imam Mehdi a.s. did or like Ameer Ali Momineen Mola Ali a.s. did. We pray that may Imam-uz-zaman may sooner does 'zuhoor' and like Dai Abu Abdullah was punished on the zuhoor of Imam Mehdi a.s. in the same fashion may the Imam-uz-zaman punishes all the present corrupt people.

Mubarak a..k.a. Doctor a.k.a. Badrijanab,

You are dishonest, corrupt, unqualified and a Liar. I'll prove this to everyone on this forum today:

1. You are unqualified for any intellectual debate on Islam because you ask such silly questions as " Imam is not Mohtaj of Dai" and similar likes? For that matter even Allah is not Mohtaj of Nabi/rasul, then why did He have to send the Nabi/Rasul to convey His message to the people and use the nabi/rasul's services to make people recognize the concepts of Tawhid and Oneness of Allah. He could also have inspired the hearts of those he wanted to become believers directly without using Prophets. Thus, the verification of the Imam by the Dai-e-Mutlaq is a task/responsibility that has been assigned to the Dai-e-Mutlaq. This action does not affect the position of the Dai or the Imam w.r.t. each other. Dai remains Dai and Imam continues to rank higher as per the established hierarchy. The Dai is only executing the responsibility/task assigned to his office.

2. You are corrupt and dishonest because you are speaking half truth, quietly removing the other half, beacuse the readers from your club are equally uneducated, as you think probably. The Dai Abi Abdullah Al Shii was the one who was in the forefront of the Dawat function before and after the Zuhoor of Imam Mehdi AS and played a significant role during the uprising that culminated in the Zuhoor of the Imam Mehdi AS. It was much after the zuhoor that Dai Abi Abdullah Shii himself became an unbeliever and rebelled against Imam Mehdi that the Imam ordered his execution. You did not think appropriate to narrate this part to the readers, because you wanted them to think that the Imam punished a corrupt Dai and bla bla bla....so why not draw some parallel to excite the readers by distorting some facts and quoting half a story. Thus, the story of Dai abi Abdullah has no relevance to the current topic except that if was your corrupt and evil intention to cite this example to spew venom that runs in your veins against a pious, holy and infallible servant of the Imamuz zaman.

3. You are a Liar because you have yourself on this forum suggested the infamous LITMUS TEST to verify the true Imam. Now, you are saying that when the sun rises, everyone with an eye and sanity would know it themselves about the true Imam. So then, you would not require LITMUS TEST?. See how you are biting your own assertions on this same thread. And if everyone would automatically know, then why did the entire Arabia not accept Imam Mehdi when he came out of seclusion. Why did he have to fight battles? Why did he not establish the Fatimid empire in Madina, the city of his grandfather Prophet Mohammad(SAWW)? Why did he require dawat functionaries to spread the message far and wide? And did the entire Arabia and Africa and Persia, which by that time had converted to Islam, accept the Imamat of Imam Mehdi AS? So you see you are a Liar because you pick and choose those fragments from the history books that suit your evil and corrupt theories, and then you use those evil notions to vent your hatred and grudge against honest, pious and holy personalities.

For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.

Now, read again the 7 questions posted to the progressives at the beginning of this topic and try to answer them, if you can, rationally, objectively and sensibly and honestly, ofcourse.

[Muslim First]

Refer to above post

It is obvious from above discussion, Dawoodi Bohras of all factions are living in "Lala Land". What a fairy tale.

[humanbeing]

1. For that matter even Allah is not Mohtaj of Nabi/rasul, then why did He have to send the Nabi/Rasul to convey His message to the people and use the nabi/rasul's services to make people recognize the concepts of Tawhid and Oneness of Allah. He could also have inspired the hearts of those he wanted to become believers directly without using Prophets.

Did Allah Hid the prophets (Nabi / Rasul) from people to whom Allah wanted to send the message & Adopt Islam ?

2. The Dai Abi Abdullah Al Shii was the one who was in the forefront of the Dawat function before and after the Zuhoor of Imam Mehdi AS and played a significant role during the uprising that culminated in the Zuhoor of the Imam Mehdi AS. It was much after the zuhoor that Dai Abi Abdullah Shii himself became an unbeliever and rebelled against Imam Mehdi that the Imam ordered his execution..

Why did Dai Abi Abdullah became an unbeliever further went on to rebel ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is the Imam hidden since 800 years ?

[ghulam muhammed]

The Dai Abi Abdullah Al Shii was the one who was in the forefront of the Dawat function before and after the Zuhoor of Imam Mehdi AS and played a significant role during the uprising that culminated in the Zuhoor of the Imam Mehdi AS. It was much after the zuhoor that Dai Abi Abdullah Shii himself became an unbeliever and rebelled against Imam Mehdi that the Imam ordered his execution.

For a moment lets leave the question of verification of Imam aside, the above incident atleast proves beyond doubt that "Dais are NOT infallible (masum)".

[Adam]

Very well written Progticide.

If I may add, the people did continue to follow Imam Mehdi even after the incident of Dai Abi Abdullah.
And correct you when you said " he himself became an unbeliever and rebelled against", rather (according to Fatimi texts), he had formed doubts because of the lies told by his brother, and expressed these doubts, and was executed. He didn't "rebel against" the Imam. It was his elder brother Abu Abbas who rebelled. Imam Mahdi prayed "rehmat" on Dai Abdullah considering his great deeds.

@humanbeing

Did Allah Hid the prophets (Nabi / Rasul) from people to whom Allah wanted to send the message & Adopt Islam ?

Yes they did.
Even Moosa went into hiding when he slipped out of Egypt from the Fir'awn.

Why did Dai Abi Abdullah became an unbeliever further went on to rebel ?

Doubts caused by other people.

Why is the Imam hidden since 800 years ?

That, you'll have to ask him, he knows best.
Once you accept satr is a part of the system in the Prophets and Imam Mehdi before him, you don't need to argue the "numbers of years", they may be whatever and however long Allahs will is.

For a moment lets leave the question of verification of Imam aside, the above incident atleast proves beyond doubt that "Dais are NOT infallible (masum)".

Easy:
The Dai al Muthlaq during Satr is infallible. Dai Abi Abdullah wasn't the "Dai al Muthlaq" so he was not infallible.

Now, let's NOT "leave the question of verification of Imam aside", because this thread is to discuss the Proggy belief in the verification of the Imam.
1. Proggies SUPPOSEDLY accept the incident of Dai Abu Abdillah, and SUPPOSEDLY have no doubts in the Imamat and infallibility of the Fatimi Imams.
So, since they accept the above, PROGGIES : "The True Imam - How would you verify?"

[JC]

Hey Adam Dude

Do not waste your time in proving something that DOES NOT exist ...

[Adam]

Hey Adam Dude
Do not waste your time in proving something that DOES NOT exist ...

What doesn't exist?
The Imam?
I'm sure Proggies and "supposedly" Imam followers should disgaree with you. IF they have the courage to speak up. But I doubt they will

[humanbeing]

Yes they did.
Even Moosa went into hiding when he slipped out of Egypt from the Fir'awn.

Why did Moosa went into hiding ? after how many years did he reappear to come and save people from firawn’s atrocities ?

Why is the Imam hidden since 800 years ?

That, you'll have to ask him, he knows best. Once you accept satr is a part of the system in the Prophets and Imam Mehdi before him, you don't need to argue the "numbers of years", they may be whatever and however long Allahs will is.

The question is why there is satr ? and if one wants to debate these issues of faith and escape the argument by excuse of “on will of Allah”, quiet easy eh ! common bohras cant do so when it comes to paying ransom to kothar !!

Easy: The Dai al Muthlaq during Satr is infallible. Dai Abi Abdullah wasn't the "Dai al Muthlaq" so he was not infallible.

Amusing !

[zinger]

@ Human Being - Be sure to stand first in line when the Imam appears (assuming aap tab tak zinda hain) and ask Him for yourself, His reasons for staying in hiding. Bohra belief is that the Imam is in seclusion and the Dai represents Him. If you have a problem accepting that, you have the option of leaving this sub sect of Islam and joining the one that you think is true.

@ Adam - Brilliantly argued

@ Progticide - so refreshing to see you debate without loosing your cool. Prime example of why you should not leave.

[humanbeing]

@ Human Being - Be sure to stand first in line when the Imam appears (assuming aap tab tak zinda hain) and ask Him for yourself, His reasons for staying in hiding. Bohra belief is that the Imam is in seclusion and the Dai represents Him. If you have a problem accepting that, you have the option of leaving this sub sect of Islam and joining the one that you think is true. .

I m not debating which sub sect / sect is true or not that I m chasing to join as you are suggesting, I m just asking questions like many other commoners. I would agree to any rule and belief which is simple and honest to understand. Imam-in-hiding trumpet is well known final escape for kothar and its leadership to loot commoner silly.

It is far more believable / logical and practical to understand why did Mousa (SAW) or Imams went into hiding was for obvious reason to be protected and organize against imminent threat to life & ideaology. After which they duly returned / appeared to continue their mission ordered by Allah. Complexities of historical events are conveniently twisted to suit present agendas of priestly class, which is greed for power and wealth.

This forum is for questioning and open minded debates, if you find the questions and answers and expression of thought disturbing or problematic, you have a grand option to leave this forum, without any threat to you or relatives, which is unlikely in kothar controlled bohra community.

[zinger]

@ Human Being - Be sure to stand first in line when the Imam appears (assuming aap tab tak zinda hain) and ask Him for yourself, His reasons for staying in hiding. Bohra belief is that the Imam is in seclusion and the Dai represents Him. If you have a problem accepting that, you have the option of leaving this sub sect of Islam and joining the one that you think is true. .

I m not debating which sub sect / sect is true or not that I m chasing to join as you are suggesting, I m just asking questions like many other commoners. I would agree to any rule and belief which is simple and honest to understand. Imam-in-hiding trumpet is well known final escape for kothar and its leadership to loot commoner silly.

It is far more believable / logical and practical to understand why did Mousa (SAW) or Imams went into hiding was for obvious reason to be protected and organize against imminent threat to life & ideaology. After which they duly returned / appeared to continue their mission ordered by Allah. Complexities of historical events are conveniently twisted to suit present agendas of priestly class, which is greed for power and wealth.

This forum is for questioning and open minded debates, if you find the questions and answers and expression of thought disturbing or problematic, you have a grand option to leave this forum, without any threat to you or relatives, which is unlikely in kothar controlled bohra community.[/

Like i told you, when the Imam appears, be sure aap unse unka kaaran pooche, satr mein rehne ka

If ofcourse, you do not believe in the concept of an Imam in seclusion, ludicrous as it may sound to your rational, logical, practical, open-minded mind, then you are questioning, nay ignoring the basic tenet of Dawoodi Bohra Islamic beliefs

[SBM]

I'm sure Proggies and "supposedly" Imam followers should disgaree with you. IF they have the courage to speak up. But I doubt they will

Adam
Can you show the same courage speaking about the corruption-napostism and other ills in Kothar, Before asking others to show the courage can you show the same

[SBM]

nay ignoring the basic tenet of Dawoodi Bohra Islamic beliefs

Zinger
So what are the current basic tenet of Dawoodi Bohra beliefs? Does doing Matam after every Fard is basic tenet of DB, doing Qadamboosi-giving
Ziyaafats during the Faazil Nights of Ramadan is basic tenet of DB.
Since all the basic tenets of DB changes with the Mood of Dai and his Zaadas I just want to understand the basic. I am sure Badrijanab will disagree with your definition of Basic Tenets of DB beliefs

[humanbeing]

@SBM
Standard, reply from Kothari agents : This thread is on proggies verification of Imam, for other questions please open another thread. Then once a new thread is opened, these Kothari agents are no where to see.


@zinger !
You have a presented a good point that can be discussed.. I would like to know, Is Imam-in-seclusion concept basic tenet of DBs? There are 2 parallel queries :

1. How old is DBs existence ? Before Imams went into Seclusion or DBs were formed entirely in era of seclusion of Imams ?
2. Is Concept of Seclusion of Imam one of the tenets of DB faith or compulsory tenet of DB faith ?

As per general learning amongst DBs, people of the times are eagerly waiting for Imam to appear.


My previous queries still remains unanswered. Why is the need to go in seclusion ?

[Muslim First]

Adam wrote:
Easy: The Dai al Muthlaq during Satr is infallible. Dai Abi Abdullah wasn't the "Dai al Muthlaq" so he was not infallible.

Wow
Infallibie Dai did not know that his open mike cursing will cause Hullad. Life, limb and property of his faithful follower will be lost. Dai is believed to know past, present and future.

Even 53 has power to talk to dead and can do surgeries remotely.

[asad]

Even 53 has power to talk to dead and can do surgeries remotely.

Nah, MF, he didnt do it remotely, he came into dream and did it. Slight difference

[zinger]

nay ignoring the basic tenet of Dawoodi Bohra Islamic beliefs

Zinger
So what are the current basic tenet of Dawoodi Bohra beliefs? Does doing Matam after every Fard is basic tenet of DB, doing Qadamboosi-giving
Ziyaafats during the Faazil Nights of Ramadan is basic tenet of DB.
Since all the basic tenets of DB changes with the Mood of Dai and his Zaadas I just want to understand the basic. I am sure Badrijanab will disagree with your definition of Basic Tenets of DB beliefs

SBM janab, suggest we stick to the discussion on hand please. thank you

[zinger]

@SBM
Standard, reply from Kothari agents : This thread is on proggies verification of Imam, for other questions please open another thread. Then once a new thread is opened, these Kothari agents are no where to see.


@zinger !
You have a presented a good point that can be discussed.. I would like to know, Is Imam-in-seclusion concept basic tenet of DBs YES, I BELIEVE IT IS, BUT IM SURE THAT MORE LEARNED COLLEAGUES OF MINE LIKE ADAM, PROGTICIDE, BADRIJANAB ETC CAN ANSWER THAT BETTER AND MORE CLEARLY THAN I CAN? There are 2 parallel queries :

1. How old is DBs existence ? Before Imams went into Seclusion or DBs were formed entirely in era of seclusion of Imams ? AGAIN, IM NOT SURE OF THIS ANSWER, THE PEOPLE MENTIONED ABOVE, OR ANYONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER, CAN ANSWER
2. Is Concept of Seclusion of Imam one of the tenets of DB faith or compulsory tenet of DB faith ? YES, I DO BELIEVE IT IS BUT I CANNOT SAY IT FOR SURE. MY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE TELLS ME KE SHAAYAD YEH SACH HAIN. PAR POORA YAKEEN SE AUR BHI LOG HAIN JO BATA PAAYENGE

As per general learning amongst DBs, people of the times are eagerly waiting for Imam to appear.


My previous queries still remains unanswered. Why is the need to go in seclusion ? AGAIN, MERE BHAI, AAP YEH SAWAAL IMAM SE HI POOCHE JAB WOH PHIR SE AAYENGE, YAA AAP ISKA JAWAAB MUJHE DHOOND KAR DEEJIYE BECAUSE WE ACCEPT THAT WE DO NOT KNOW

[progticide]

1. How old is DBs existence ? Before Imams went into Seclusion or DBs were formed entirely in era of seclusion of Imams ?
2. Is Concept of Seclusion of Imam one of the tenets of DB faith or compulsory tenet of DB faith ?

You have always sought answers with wrongly phrased questions at the wrong place. Let me try answering:

1. How old is DBs existence? It should be rephrased as " How old is Dawat's existence?"
Answer: Dawat of the Imam on Earth has existed from the begining of the world, from the first person on earth. DBs is only the latest name to represent the subjects of the Dawat in today's era. The subjects/followers of the dawat today are known as DBs, during the era of Imam Mustansir AS they were known as Ismailis, during the era of Imam Jafar Sadiq AS they were known as Shia. It may be interesting for you to know that the Imams have remained in seclusion for the most part of history of mankind since Maulana Adam Safiullah AS. This current period of 900 years of seclusion is not a new or exaggerated one. Confused/Perplexed? Thinking what crap is this abde moron talking? That is why we ask you to leave your arrogance behind and join the sabaqs with renewed faith and obedience. And you will require patience, lots of patience; knowledge is not served on a platter, the pot has to be filled drop by drop.

2. The compulsory tenets of DB faith are the 7 Daaims of Islam. The seclusion of Imam is more of a fact and a reality of DB faith since the time of seclusion of 21st Imam, Imam Tayyeb AS. Because if you dont agree on this point and accept this fact of seclusion than you cannot accept that the dawat is currently under the complete authority of the Dai Al Mutlaq, whose office has been appointed for the specific purpose of managing the affairs of the Dawat with complete authority over every function of the Dawat and its subjects. The dawat cannot have two heads as authority. No state or country can have two Heads of State. Therefore during the seclusion of the Imam, the Dai al Mutlaq's office has been delegated complete authority over the dawat functioning to leave no room for ambiguity or doubts while exercising the authority over the functions of dawat . Thus, the seclusion of the Imamuz zaman is a fact, just as the matyrdom of Imam Husain AS is a fact, or the matyrdom of Maula Ali AS is a fact, or the establishment of the fatimid empire in Misr is a fact.

Invite comments/corrections from learned DB members on this forum like Adam, to further substantiate the above, if they feel appropriate to share/divulge more information on this subject on an open forum.

BTW, getting back to the core subject of this topic:

For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.


Still waiting for a united, common, coherent response/stand from the reformists.

[mnoorani]

@ Progticide,
Do they reveal in the sabaqs that all haraam activities are allowed ?
The dai declares in MAjlises that riba is haraam ,hoever the denizens of his own house are into it! The dai declares that liquor is the mother of satan but his own brothers deal in liquor.
The dai talks about living like ALI and his own flock wages a bloody assault on fellow worshippers in Udaipur Mosque. That with deadly arms.
Mumineen in Mumbra are hungry like mumins everywhere but what is bein done about them when his sons are flying club class ? Why except lavish ziyafats when at the door of his fathers grand masoleum we can find hungry bohras begging for a cup of tea !
What is ridiculous is your claim of the need of the Dai to identify the IMAM !
The dai claims to be the ghulam of the Imam so the Imam is much higher than the dai.

[seeker110]

Progi Bhai ap bhout lambi lambi chorte hou. Allah ap ko shifa de.

[Adam]

@Progticide

For Dawoodi Bohras - Dai Al Mutlaq's word will be final in the identification of the True Imam.
Still waiting for a united, common, coherent response/stand from the reformists.

Great question, but you'll never get an answer, because there isn't any unity nor any basic comprehension.
The Proggies are a confused bunch.