Please stop posting and talking

[pheonix]

This is an appeal to all bohras to stop posting on this forum and other such forums, such as facebook and twitter.
The taliban in Pakistan have us as a target and we are no position to defend ourselves.
This appeal is to the bohras in other countries besides Pakistan too. You must stop for the sake of your brethren in Pakistan.
Also all bohras in Pakistan should stop talking about their religion and engaging in a religious argument in their personal lives too.
I hope every bohra reading this forum will consider this.

[pheonix]

http://dawn.com/2012/11/04/two-bohra-co ... hyderabad/

This is the third such incident in the past month, resulting in 10 losses of life.

[pheonix]

I also hope progressives could leave their enmity aside and refrain from posting provocative posts.

[humanbeing]

A Wishful thinking dear !


You think a miniscule minority of free thinkers amongst a miniscule populace of bohra community expressing their thoughts on forums here or facebook and twitter, is going to provoke hardliner fanatics to resort to attacks on bohras.


Hardliner Political Terrorist need no reason to attack innocent people, they just do it !


Morever there are far more vocal and expressive section of the world who openly preach hatred towards hardliner extremist “muslim”, resulting in attacks. Moreover shia (bohra) invite violence by mindless expression of hatred.


Accepting your POV, it is kothar who should stop public fanfare and promotion of bohraism as ultimate superior race of people, ridiculing “ola musalman” and further alienating itself from mainstream muslims or from the world.


Morever Bohras are no less, the divisive hatred fed into young minds in sabaks, create uncomfortable arguments and discussion with other muslims counterparts in social circles. I have rarely seen a normal muslim expressively associating hatred of any muslim personality with worship of Allah,. Whereas Shia (Bohras) ideaology of being Shia has two major philosophy : Love for Imam Ali and Hatred for others (List is long).


(Now see how Kothari agents will twist my above words and declare me a Shia-Hating-Wahaabi)


Speaking of Kothari Corruption is only inciting Kothari Inc.

[pheonix]

A request to the progressives not to pay to heed to the post of "humanbeing" who has no idea of the ground realities of the happenings
in Pakistan and is just consumed by hatred.
I am not asking you guys to refrain from bashing the Kothar or asking for accountability, or pointing out flaws in the jamaat system.
But please stop discussing or arguing about the bohra religious doctrine and practices,even if you do not agree with it, at least for the sake of
humanity.

[humanbeing]

Dear Phoenix


I respect your concern, I don’t wish to argue on intention of safety of Bohras or anyone. But if you have opened a discussion on bohras behavior for safety. Then Kothar has to revisit its policies to ensure safety and harmony.


Divisive thinking and superiority complex instilled in minds of bohras are causing latent divide and dislike towards bohra community. In general bohra community is liked by non bohras by virtue of friendly and smart business relations.


But bohra’s thinking and outlook is getting mutated into some weird philosophies, when bohras interact with non bohras and matters of religion and faith are discussed, they present hilarious to objectionable arguments.


Kothar has its walls secured, but brainwashed abde who live in secular societies do not understand the implication of their changing outlook. And are making themselves vunerable to less tolerant violent people in societies. Many a times an abde bohra invite trouble by indulging in ridiculing Sunni / Wahabi beliefs and take pride in expressing hatred towards Non shia personalities.


I m fairly aware of ground realities be it in Pakistan, Kuwait or Gujarat. Advise you have expressed in good faith duly applies to Kothar also.


When Questions on Kothar’s Integrity is raised in light of glaring corruption, kothar hides behind twisted bohra religious doctrines and practices.

[pheonix]

I would also request Admin to archive(at least temporarily) all threads discussing bohra doctrine or religious practices.

[accountability]

I totally agree with phoenix, you guys are not familiar with ground realities in karachi or pakistan. i am not a big fan of our administaration, but it has to do with our brothers and sisters life. please do not post any comment about our community or our practices. if you do not want to be a part of something that will destroy the lives of our people. i am requesting it in all earnestness. this morning i talked to some one in hyederabad pakistan and they said that there were unconfirmed reports of killing our people.

admin i am requesting you to please block links to pages that has discussion about our community. it is very important. please do that for some times. i cannot post here the information i got, but i am requesting all participants on this board to refrain from posting discussing anything. look we may have differences with our administration, but we all want welfare of our community. blame game will not do any good.
these are trying times in pakistan for our community, we should band together. one more thing it is now in pakistan but it may reach india or other gulf countries.
please heed to the request, admin if you can, can you block this site in pakistan.

[Humsafar]

Phoenix boy,
Please ask your masters to stop making a mockery of our religion. Ask them to stop organising milads and functions and making a public exhibition of idol-worshipping. Ask them to stop making a cult of the Dai. Ask them to stop all this stupid Qaumi libas business - ridas, topis and sayas - it is these distinctive features that make them stand out. If Bohras are becoming target of wahabi violence it is because of the doings and misdoings of your masters. The blame and responsibility squarely lies on their heads. Stop looking for scapegoats. Wahabis don't need to come to this site to find out how deviant and misguided and unIslamic Bohras are. You and your masters provide enough tawdry public evidence of that.

Accnty,
Don't be a fool to be taken in by these dishonest and paranoid abdes. They are just looking for an excuse to denounce and defame this site. To suggest that this site is in anyway responsible for Karachi killings is outlandish and preposterous.

[Biradar]

I agree with Humsafar. To suggest that any discussion on this forum causes attacks on Bohras in Pakistan is ludicrous, to say the least. If one wants, a lot of doctrinal material on the Bohras can be dug up on the web, including original texts in Arabic. Also, there are huge number of videos on YouTube by Alavis which go into detail about Bohra history and philosophical doctrine. So lets stop getting paranoid.

Seems like cynical Kotharis are taking this grim and grotesque opportunity to silence all the opposition and the last remaining openness in the community. If the Bohras are so concerned, they should stop the nonsense perpetuated by their assorted and ridiculous molas and shehzadas. Kissing wooden stick carried by their mola, parading him around like an idol, praising him like he is a god, taking out huge juluus and assemblies in stadiums, meeting corrupt politicians and ministers, etc. should be stopped.

The small voice which dissidents have on this forum has no effect when compared with the loud and clear message the billion-dollar Kothar Inc. is sending to the world at large, including the Pakistanis. So please stop being penny wise and billion-dollar foolish.

[accountability]

hamsafar, I am not taken in by any one. what i said is ground reality. in hyderababd sindh two bohras were killed and another injured seriously. I am not saying that this site is responsible for what is happening in karachi and pakistan. but i do fear that as internet access is there, they search everywhere once they start targetting a community. they were killing shias, still killing shias everywhere.In quetta, they stop the bus, check id cards, names bearing shia culture are seperated, even women and childeren, and kill them.
they are scouring all shia sites, to learn about their whereabout and imam bargahs and then target them. this may also happen to us, they will search or are searching net. There is a pamphlet going around, which says that bohras do sajda to syedna, therefore they are idolators. they may have found it somewhere.
i agree that this has been brought upon bohra by jamat to larger extent, their pomp and show and marching and so much proppaganda. but now we continue the blame game, and in any way become an accessory to this brutality, will not help. I again request that for the time being we should be vigilant, not abet them in any way. we may sort out the differences among ourselves.

[Humsafar]

Accnty,
Given your logic, would you also suggest that all shia sites and discussions boards should be shut down because shias are being targeted?

[Biradar]

Brother accountability: All the things you have mentioned have nothing to do with anything on this site. For example, there are no names or places mentioned on the message boards. Also, this site is like a drop in the ocean of information on Shias on the web. So please do not get carried away and think rationally. Taliban likely do not read anything on this site and nothing we can do will stop them anyway.

[Al Zulfiqar]

there can be only one logical response to the disingenous post of risen-from-the dead phoenix.

he wants to sweep the dirt under the carpet! wah bhai wah!

as others have so rightly pointed out, if at all bohras in pakistan are being targeted, its because of the arrogance, insensitivity, and unislamic practices of their leaders, who have deliberately misguided and misled the community for their own vested interests over the last 7 odd decades. the blatant show of pomp, glamour and money-power was bound to generate a violent backlash. now that the worst has actually started happening and innocent bohras are being targeted, it suddenly becomes the responsibility of this site to take corrective measures, is it?

how about asking, nay demanding, that their leaders change their high and mighty ways? that they reurn to the ways of the founding fathers of islam, leading simpler, more austere lives with "real" piety and humility, instead of taking every opportunity to flaunt their insane wealth, power and political influence, which rightfully should have no place in an so-called islamic spiritual leaders's life?

ulta chor kotwal ko dantey? on the one hand the abdes and the paid lackeys of the kothar here, pour scorn on this site as being inconsequential and irrelevant, but on the other hand now acknowledge that it has such immense power that the taleban, and sunni hardliners monitor it to gather ammunition against bohras?? make up your minds, you confused fools.

in phoenix's post, i dont see any commiseration or concern for the affected bohras, what i see is a shameless attempt to protect his corrupt masters and their kufr filled practices. any sympathy implied is only to make a desperate appeal to the innate decency of the reformists, to make them complicit in the crimes of the kothari criminals.

it may seem to be a powerful appeal to join ranks and show solidarity with the bohras of pakistan, but when have the saifee mahal crooks shown any remorse or empathy for the reformists who have cried themselves hoarse, appealing to the humanity and professed love of the syedna for all his 'children'? reformists, who inspite of all the injustices, cruelty and persecution against them, still steadfastly believe in him as their undisputed leader?

phoenix's post is so typical of the kothari crooks and so predictable. in dubai, the bohra jamaat often used to invite other prominent shia and sunni leaders on idd e milad when syedna was visiting, and serve them lavish food after the customary speeches to show how much we are part of the larger muslim ummah etc bullshit. but most hilariously and sardonically, they used to instruct the entire jamaat a few days before this tamasha, that no one, repeat no one, should line up and clamour for kissing and touching the syedna or do sajdas to him, no one should do salaams with money and to strictly observe discipline, ladies to stay out of sight and dozens of other rules, so as to present the image of a perfect muslim community in front of the visiting dignitaries. what hypocrisy, what clever manipulators! but guess what, as soon as the outsiders left, all the abdes/amtes reverted to their true form, trampling over each other, yelling, mola, mola, shouting for dua and shifa and lining up with envelopes for kadambosi etc.

i think i have mentioned this once before on another thread concerning the tragic events of karachi, its time the dictators of saifee mahal woke up to the fact and trembled in their hizaars that through this site, the progressives have powerful connections with the taleban and anti-shia factions. this is what the abdes themselves are claiming, not the progressives!!

[pheonix]

Phoenix boy,
Please ask your masters to stop making a mockery of our religion. Ask them to stop organising milads and functions and making a public exhibition of idol-worshipping. Ask them to stop making a cult of the Dai. Ask them to stop all this stupid Qaumi libas business - ridas, topis and sayas - it is these distinctive features that make them stand out. If Bohras are becoming target of wahabi violence it is because of the doings and misdoings of your masters. The blame and responsibility squarely lies on their heads. Stop looking for scapegoats. Wahabis don't need to come to this site to find out how deviant and misguided and unIslamic Bohras are. You and your masters provide enough tawdry public evidence of that.

Accnty,
Don't be a fool to be taken in by these dishonest and paranoid abdes. They are just looking for an excuse to denounce and defame this site. To suggest that this site is in anyway responsible for Karachi killings is outlandish and preposterous.

So even if we are idolators, is our killing justified? I think you are condoning our killing with your post.
We do not regret or are apologetic of our culture, but the people we are dealing with are not rational.
They do not want to engage in discussions rather just find an excuse for killing, and we are in no position to take up arms against them.
The reason this site is important is that this is the the first site that comes up when you search Dawoodi bohras.
There are other materials available on the net too, but these people are not really resourceful or intelligent enough to dig them out.

The arguments AZ, Humsafar and Biradar have given are the exact same arguments given the Taliban and reeks of intolerance.

[Quranist]

why dont u ask mb and mufaddal to stop show off, and start living ISLMAIC life, and also let his team mates to propagate QURAAN and ISLAM rather then his own worshiping religion.

if they start living NORMAL ISLAMIC life, I am sure threats on bohras will decrease significantly.

and if they dont do what I am suggesting I am sure bohras will be crushed worldwide.......coz ALLAH is ultimately making this world free from SHIRK and KUFR.

not just in pakistan, but now also in INDIA muslims are getting aware of IDOLATRY concepts of bohras, which is making there anguish increased.

inviting modi and giving him fake titles and respect is one more reason for making MUSLIMS angry.

[Biradar]

So even if we are idolators, is our killing justified? I think you are condoning our killing with your post.

The arguments AZ, Humsafar and Biradar have given are the exact same arguments given the Taliban and reeks of intolerance.

Pheonix: Do not be in a hurry to lump everyone in the same boat. I do not think any killing of innocents is justified, in any circumstances, whatever be their beliefs. I for one do not consider the bohra beliefs bad, but do think that the current da'i and his entourage have taken advantage of simpletons like you and corrupted a once great religion and community.

The taliban are the worst sort of thugs and those who say that killings are justified because bohras are "un-Islamic" are the fifth column, the lowest traitors and self-haters. Under no circumstances should one think that killing bohras, or for that matter any innocents, is good. It is terrible and should be condemned in the strongest possible terms.

However, your suggestion that this message board has anything to do with the killing is ridiculous. Just recently your beloved mansoos was in Pakistan making a big scene. A few years ago the Sayedna was there, taking out big juloos and renting stadiums so people could do his dedaar. This is what the Talibaan see and react against. Please tell your molas and their followers to stop this show and pomp. Stop bribing politicians. Stop making a big show of their wealth. Then you won't be a target.

Also, ignore fools like Muslim First and his Taliban cohorts. They are haters of Shia and lovers of Yazeed. Let them say any crap they want. Under the guise of Quraan they are here to spread hate. Just ignore them.

[accountability]

Humsafar: I am not asking to shut down this site, but rather be careful about what we say.

Phoenix: this is the mindset that has gotten us into this mess. Your stubborn view of your correctness and not respecting other's point of view. As you want to be free to observe your religion, you have to give this right to others, and respect their point of view. One way to do it is by not abusing other's belief. I dont know how familiar are you with details of our religion, but on this board we have exetensively discussed by some very knowledgeable persons, who proved that sometimes the present administration is distorting and expanding on what is not there.
I will suggest to you and many others that respecting other's point of view is the only way of survival. we are a peaceful community, we should remain the same, Syedna saheb has experienced the mumbai episode, that experience should have taught us lessons, unfortunately it did not. Now we are at this cross road. Look at agha khanis, they are not being targetted becuase they are minding their own business, and leave others with their faith. You can not keep on beating drums on past historical mistakes, even if there were and /or correcting them, which you cannot. Jamat has become a selfish organization just there to serve royal family. Haidri incident proved that how selfish jamat has become, effected families wwere let on their own, even token help was not offered , instead hurdles were created for those who wanted to help these poor guys. Having said all this , there is no reason whatsoever to kill innocent bohras and yes we should do every thing to help stop this, and not become an accessory to or in any way help those fanatcs for whom human life means nothing.

MuslimFirst, absuing anyone specially those who are revered by others is un civilized way, But I am sorry to say it is not alone, wahabis on thir wesites abuse, and ridicule shia faith day in day out.To the extent of ondemning them to death.
Pakistan is a glaring example of religious fanatism, other day a school teacher is in hiding and a principal is in jail for an alleged piece of home work that she sent home with her students. School is almost burnt, 2000 + students are missing classes, police knows that these are wrong allegation, but helpless to take any action,.
Biradar my friend Iam jsut saying that we should be a bit careful and not do our dirty laundry in public.

[Aymelek]

and if they dont do what I am suggesting I am sure bohras will be crushed worldwide.......coz ALLAH is ultimately making this world free from SHIRK and KUFR.

Quranist,

This what exactly Wahabbis / Salafis do, declare everyone with a different interpretation of Islam as Kafirs and kill them, saying they are doing Allah's work of cleansing this world of Shirk & Kufr.

For heavens sake, I have been repeating again and again, do not be the judge of who is Kafir and Mushrik, let Allah decide that. Unless your wahabbi brethren has decided to take up that role also for Allah.

[Aymelek]

and if they dont do what I am suggesting I am sure bohras will be crushed worldwide.......coz ALLAH is ultimately making this world free from SHIRK and KUFR.

Quranist,

This what exactly Wahabbis / Salafis do, declare everyone with a different interpretation of Islam as Kafirs and kill them, saying they are doing Allah's work of cleansing this world of Shirk & Kufr.

For heavens sake, I have been repeating again and again, do not be the judge of who is Kafir and Mushrik, let Allah decide that. Unless your wahabbi brethren has decided to take up that role also for Allah.

[Bohra spring]

Phoenix and abdes

Can you explain what is the kothar advising abdes in Pakistan how to be vigilant and mindful if the safety?

It is easy to blame others but can you place a mirror on what you do and define as your identity that is making you unacceptable ?


I mean Mansoos is wise and intelligent what is his advise apart from blaming PDB

[ghulam muhammed]

The so called concern of pakistani bohras by phoenix seems to be mere lip service because if he is soooo very concerned then he would divert his energy to the publicity stunts and tamashas organised by kothar at the drop of a hat but he prefers to remain silent on the PUBLIC DISPLAY by kothar but choses to target a website which in all probability is viewed by very few people (these are the very claims of abdes on this site). It would be better if he sends an ARZI to mansoos expressing his concerns and request him to refrain from any further show baazis !!

He forgets that bohras are becoming soft targets for the talibans ONLY because of their vulgar display of wealth and power during salgirahs, ziafats and numerous palkhi rounds and also due to their unique dress code due to which bohras are easily segregated from other mainstream muslims.

[rang]

Pakistan passing through a critical phase. One side it's the western lobby and the Taliban on the otherside. I remember in the late 60 & 70's when Karachi was the 2nd cleanest city of Asia after Japan and a Textile Giant. A country Rich in Agriculture. Even in 80's PAkistan steel mills exported millons of Tons of Steel Billet and HRC / CRC sheets to India. But know all is wrap up. Everybody Talking of Pakistan but unfortunately no one Know's the actuall play. Disintegration of Karachi from Pakistan is the main agenda of western world from where they can penetrate all the Gulf Sates,Central Asia and China. Karachi one of the few countries with a natural Harbour. Capturing Karachi means getting 7 different ports with complete infrastracture . Baluchistan posses the world most top reserves of mines and metals. 32 millon tons of gold on surface in sandik. 76 years of Natura gas reserves with copper and zinc mine. So once Karachi disintegrted , Baluchistan will follow.

[Al Zulfiqar]

We do not regret or are apologetic of our culture,.....

The reason this site is important is that this is the the first site that comes up when you search Dawoodi bohras.

.. and reeks of intolerance.

long dead phoenix,

what do you expect with yours and your slave masters' attitudes, when you defiantly proclaim the unislamic practices of sajda to dai, and all the grand pomp and extravaganza to show off their unholy power and arrogance? if you are not regretful or apologetic about this behaviour, then also do not regret the consequences which arise out of your stupidity and do not then blame others for them. no one here is condoning violence or killing of innocent people, but the people responsible for the violence being directed at bohras are the dictators of saifee mahal. go appeal to them.

so now you finally acknowledge that this site is numero uno for dawoodi bohras, not just on the internet, but in their lives and for their progressive future. THANKS!

as for intolerance, you decide who is more intolerant. the jaahil taleban or the kothar who express undisguised contempt for all other muslims and openly claim that they are all going to hell and only we, the chosen are going to heaven, with dai's ruku chitthi of course! look at the intolerance of the kothar towards the reformists. they do not stop even to attack them with knives and swords, daily violence and threats etc. why dont you advise the kothar to take that same approach with the anti-shia taleban in pakistan? scared of their numbers and strength, or your bravado and intimidation only works on small unarmed groups?

[Biradar]

as for intolerance, you decide who is more intolerant. the jaahil taleban or the kothar who express undisguised contempt for all other muslims and openly claim that they are all going to hell and only we, the chosen are going to heaven, with dai's ruku chitthi of course!
[/b][/color]

Brother Al-Zulfiqar: Please do not compare the Taliban to the Kothar. The former are true extremists of the worst sort, dividing the world into themselves and others, the others blood legal and worthy of being spilled. We see this everyday, they do not spare even young girls. The Kotharis are minor despots, greedy for money but they have not advocated killing everyone who are not bohras. Most of their violence is psychological and directed inwards and not outwards. In fact, except for a few crazy people, even most mullahs and amils are actually nice people, perhaps getting carried away under the influence of their power-hungry leaders. Bohras in general are gentle and kind, helping others as best as they can. Lets not compare things which have no comparison and can not be compared.

[Fateh]

as for intolerance, you decide who is more intolerant. the jaahil taleban or the kothar who express undisguised contempt for all other muslims and openly claim that they are all going to hell and only we, the chosen are going to heaven, with dai's ruku chitthi of course!
[/b][/color]

Brother Al-Zulfiqar: Please do not compare the Taliban to the Kothar. The former are true extremists of the worst sort, dividing the world into themselves and others, the others blood legal and worthy of being spilled. We see this everyday, they do not spare even young girls. The Kotharis are minor despots, greedy for money but they have not advocated killing everyone who are not bohras. Most of their violence is psychological and directed inwards and not outwards. In fact, except for a few crazy people, even most mullahs and amils are actually nice people, perhaps getting carried away under the influence of their power-hungry leaders. Bohras in general are gentle and kind, helping others as best as they can. Lets not compare things which have no comparison and can not be compared.

Biradar bhai,Al Zulfiqar is 100% correct ,there is no difference btw Taliban & kotharies.You can see the blood shed during killing someone but can not feel the social,economical,religion murder of faith of dbs.In my pov taliban is so good then kotharies as they kill at a time game over but kotharies jeene bhi nahi dete aur marne bhi nahi dete.so kotharies are more cruel then taliban.

[humanbeing]

Fateh & AZ

Comparing Kothari Inc with taleban is exxageration. Taleban extremist are untolerable, cannot be handled by any sane simple commoner. Kothari Inc is bunch of opportunist, they can mend to anyways if funded well.

Any common sensed self respecting free thinker will not fall for trickery of Kothari Inc, that is why there are only handful abde idiots falling all over for Kothar Clergy, as compared to billion people living on this earth.

As compared to religious, spiritual & phsychological stress kothari inc promotes for its own sustenance can be handled by setting ourselves freee from such crooks. Thier Shallowness is out in open to see and decide.

[Maqbool]

Dear Phoenix,

Are you really felt that the reason of attacks on Bohras at Pakistan is, this site in particular and internet in general?

You don’t see anything wrong in the receptions and other show of wealth and un-Islamic practices in the recent visit of mansoos to Karachi!

I request you to open your eyes. The main reason is within, and now the time has come to look in to this and come open against this money making business.

The way the dabba project is projected and efforts are put to force implementing it, more could have been done in the other sectors like medical facilities, educational facilities, entrepreneurship development, housing schemes, senior citizen houses etc.

You must have seen the video on youtube about the Ahmedabadi old family thrown out of the house. This is the tip of the iceberg; there are many of this types in our community. Nobody is there to help them. The wealthy people are not interested to give to this people directly, by saying that they are giving a vajebat to Sayedna and Sayedna is taking care of this people, but in reality it is not.

Since I am a member of one group who helps needy bohras, I know that there are many bohras who are not capable to educate their children, they are not able to give medical assistants to their family,
Many have no houses of their own and are not capable to pay higher rents and are compelled to change houses frequently. Like this there are many many problems which will not be sort out by dabba scheme.

Instead of using the negative way of glorifying the dai if we start putting our efforts to ease suffering of our fellow human beings I think no one will dare to look at us with enmity.

You must have heard in the waez that Rasullula A.S. has been sent many times by Musa A.S. to negotiate Namaz Hours and at last 5 times are fixed. This is a clear indication that the timing of namaz for 5 times is enough for the Muslims. I feel that the other hours like daris, Majlis, Waez are not required. If mumenins spend this times for the welfare of the community and human being, who will brand you un-Islamic?

I think on this board we all must ignore the post by Adam who now and then are worried about our belief, and the doctor who is busy about the controversy of nuss.

Let us concentrate on educating our fellow mumenis, How our money collected by way of vazebat, Gallas, Salams, ziafat, selling titles, Moharram celebration etc, is not spend where it has to be. We must educate the wealthy people of our community to spend the money directly by building hospitals, schools, senior citizen houses and many more.

Please Phoenix hope you will give some thoughts on these matters. You suggestions, advice are welcome.

[rang]

Yesterday 6th.Nov.2012 2 Bohras shot dead in Hyderabad. I have come to know from one of my client ( An active worker of some Sunni Jamat) that killing of Bohras has been declared ' Wajib ul Qatal' by the Taliban.

[zinger]

this is terrible news.