enslavement of children by parents.

[think]

you cannot force some one to love him as is stated in the misaak that you should love the dai. to day everyone even the sunnis respect moula Ali not because he demanded it but because of his deeds towards the other person. Because of his love for the other human being whether sunni or shia he is loved and venerated throughout the muslim world. you cannot demand love.

[anajmi]

I don't think that is fair. Do you want every progressive to think like you or Humsafar?

If that was the intention we would all be abdes and this forum wouldn't have existed.

Well an abde comes in many different forms. You can be an abde of the kothar or you can be an abde of your own personal version of progress. If airing personal views is harmful to the reformist cause then maybe you should change this forum to be more like maalumat.com. I am sure the original reformist ideas were thought of as over the top. But here they are, and here we are!! If this forum is truly free, then everyone should be allowed to express their opinion, doesn't matter how over the top it might be. Each one of us is responsible for our opinions. Let us just debate each other and not restrict each other.

[Grayson]

While I agree with your view, I don't think anyone's being restricted per se.
Are they?

[think]

mental and physcological restriction. scared of doing anything or speaking out against wrong being done so as not to displease the dai.

[Grayson]

Er..... I don't think that's what brother anajmi meant.
But yeah, your point is on topic.

[seeker110]

I say we all keep reforming for a better society. Keep on keep'n on.

[Grayson]

If keep on keep'n on is more of the same, I disagree.
Certain strategies, thoughts and approach might have to be tweaked (or at the least, debated on).
Patience is fine if it comes with progress. Keyword: if.

[wise_guy]

wise guy; years old traditions may be wrong and needs correction. A lot of hindu rasams are infused into the muslim bohri faith, and these hindu rasaams make a bohri muslim a half muslim.
Nowhere in the arab world and right in mecca or madinah where islam originated, will you see such rasaams being practised. Seven times around your head with coconut and handful of rice and many such aleinates the bohris from being true muslims.
Misaak or in other words an oath of alegeance was taken by the religious leader of that time soley for the purpose of the subjects being loyal to their cause. There is no holy wars being fought to spread bohri islam and so such indoctrination is not needed. Moreover this rasaam is practised byu the bhaisaheb on atleast three or four different occassions during the year so he can make a quick buck. Once you have sworn your alegeance to the imam should be enough. There is no sense in repeating this promise over and over again through out the year.

oh, so we must give up our customs and traditions and implement (humanely) traditions like banning women from entering masjids.. packaging women in black burkhaas, not allowing women to drive, women being banned from travelling alone, start madrasahs where they promise 72 hurs for killing kafirs,

[zinger]

wise guy; years old traditions may be wrong and needs correction. A lot of hindu rasams are infused into the muslim bohri faith, and these hindu rasaams make a bohri muslim a half muslim.
Nowhere in the arab world and right in mecca or madinah where islam originated, will you see such rasaams being practised. Seven times around your head with coconut and handful of rice and many such aleinates the bohris from being true muslims.
Misaak or in other words an oath of alegeance was taken by the religious leader of that time soley for the purpose of the subjects being loyal to their cause. There is no holy wars being fought to spread bohri islam and so such indoctrination is not needed. Moreover this rasaam is practised byu the bhaisaheb on atleast three or four different occassions during the year so he can make a quick buck. Once you have sworn your alegeance to the imam should be enough. There is no sense in repeating this promise over and over again through out the year.

Hi Think,

have a question for you.

what do you think is better?

Doing a "wadhavanu" rasam, which, agreed, has no roots in "true and original" islam and certainly does not harm anyone (unless you drop the coconut on someones foot, like my nephew did on my waras) or killing people in the name of jehaad and religon, irrespective of whether they are innocent victims or not? Because the Quraan, according to the new age "true muslim" prescribes this

kindly let me know, await your answer

[Grayson]

Bro Zinger,
That's a little fallacious.
It's like apples and oranges. They're both fruits but that's about it.
The consequences of each situation differs greatly. They're not comparable.
I understand if you think that "if it's harming no one there's nothing wrong with it" or "it's a lot less worse than what others are doing" but progress isn't about being less worse.
Just because it's not as bad as it could be, doesn't mean it's acceptable.

[zinger]

Brother Grayson,

I dont think its fallacious (forgive me i dont have the gift of words the way you do so i will use some of your words )

off late, we have been seeing an upsurge in views that propogate and encourage destruction of things related to our religion. this is the thinking of the new-age muslim who claims to follow and believe in "the true islam".

so anything that was not mentioned in Quraan is automatically deemed as being "bidaah". little harsh dont you think? yes, a lot of customs are out-of-place in Islam but does that make it wrong? i dont think so. In Saudi and Mecca and Medinah, the birthplace of Islam, Qurbaani is done of camels, while the original Qurbani done by Prophet Ibrahim was of a ram. So does the qurbani of a camel become bidaah? i dont think so. it is qurbaani adapted to the local culture or availability of resources. right?

Do you agree with me so far?

The consequences of both wadhaavanu and jehad differ, agreed. but look at the context of my reply and look at the context of the post that it is replied too.

the original post says that we are straying from the "true path" of Islam by introducing local customs. agreed.

Now the "true path of Islam" according to a lot of Muslims today is dying and killing in the name of religion. do you agree with me?

now you tell me, what is more acceptable (not better or worse mind you), introducing a custom that agreeably has no place, but does not dilute or harm religion, or stick to self-perceived translation of the Quraan which propagates and encourages death and destruction

[Grayson]

I follow you and do not denounce your argument (I personally believe cherry-picked hardline literalism of the Quraan is treachery against what some may consider the threat of advancement, but that's for another topic).
I also agree in being vocal to condemn more extreme views. But in consideration of the context, I'm still going to point out it's not about this practice being more acceptable. It's peaceful and doesn't harm anyone, so yes, it's certainly better than the extremes. But it does dilute the faith, even if there's no harm.
We practice it, which is fine and acceptable and likely brought on by regional influence. That does not mean it's fine with faith. I personally am averse to it and do not see any virtue in the practice; at least not how we do it.
It's funny to note: others my consider the same for maatam (which I sympathize with), but it's Islamically justified in my mind. If you think so for wadhaavanu, please share your view.

[humanbeing]

With relevance to the topic, ‘enslavement of children by parents’.
Ritual of misaak is not the culprit of enslavement. It’s the parents attitude towards keeping children in the bohra fold. I have seen and experienced harsh and unfair use of force, religious or emotional blackmail by parents to keep children restricted.
Growing beards : Many boys do not wish to keep the beard, specially when they are in defining days of their personality. But parents force, manipulate or emotionally blackmail kids to do it. Many a times it becomes a matter of shame for a son of sheikh to not keep a beard and father takes the son on a guilt trip due to society pressures.
Wearing Rida : There are girls who respect the matter of tradition but restricting them to wear only ridas is unfair, resulting in suppressed anguish and deception when it touches extreme.
In name of instilling good manners and virtues, parents are turning their children into human worshipping zombies. A small child is taught to do maatam as a matter of ritual rather then an expression of emotion. Photo worshipping and other superstitious rituals.
FGM is also one of the enslavement of children by parents, which is widely debated.

[wise_guy]

Bohris nowadays kiss anything that has anything written in Arabic Kissing photos of Maula (TUS) is the norm... few years down the line.. they will start making idols.. who knows.. Bohras are a zealous lot when it comes to anything related to Maula.. I have seen people keeping a cup of water under Maula's (TUS) photo throughout the night and then giving it to family members in the morning.. now this is totally insane...

[zinger]

I follow you and do not denounce your argument (I personally believe cherry-picked hardline literalism of the Quraan is treachery against what some may consider the threat of advancement, but that's for another topic).
I also agree in being vocal to condemn more extreme views. But in consideration of the context, I'm still going to point out it's not about this practice being more acceptable. It's peaceful and doesn't harm anyone, so yes, it's certainly better than the extremes. But it does dilute the faith, even if there's no harm.
We practice it, which is fine and acceptable and likely brought on by regional influence. That does not mean it's fine with faith. I personally am averse to it and do not see any virtue in the practice; at least not how we do it.
It's funny to note: others my consider the same for maatam (which I sympathize with), but it's Islamically justified in my mind. If you think so for wadhaavanu, please share your view.

Sorry, i have no proof for why it is justified Islamically.

our stand is simple, if it doesnt hurt or harm anyone, or takes you away from God, then there is nothing wrong in it

[wise_guy]

if you see.. in the recent times.. many customs, practices which resembled some Hindu, specifically Gujrati traditions have been banned or advised to be discontinued by the higher ups.. I can't recall a specific one but many customs have been banned..

Overall, the Gujarati traditions in Bohris were mostly dominant in Nagari people.. (those living or originating from Gujarat, especially Jamnagar-Rajkot & surrounding areas).. They still follow a lot of those customs and traditions.. One prominent among them is exchange of lot of Gold during marriages and other occasions..

[zinger]

Let me tell you of a funny incident.

i have friends both Nagri and Surti (Surat wala). The Surti's consider themselves the poshest in terms of mentality (sudhrela or 'prim and propah' as we call them )

anyways, the kaatho kutwaanu and mausalu and other typical Nagri customs used to be frowned upon by the Surtis, them saying "aa badhu apne toh naa kare, apne to Surti che", but recently, i attended 2 marriages in Surat and believe it or not, a lot of youngsters are actually opting for it.

so does that mean that the Surtis, the so-called 'sudhrela' are going backwards? no, they are just embracing a harmless custom which, in the words of humsafar saab, brings a little colour into the already festive occasion of marriage. again, is it justified in Islam? no, but theek hain yaar, shaadi ek baar hoti hain (atleast i hope so ) so thoda enjoy kar lete hain, waise bhi, shaadi ke baad toh rona hain ...



just kidding, marriage is the best thing that can happen to a man

[genesis]

Theres no concept of misaak mentioned anywhere in the Quran . The believer is commanded to follow the seven pillars of Islam but that he should take an oath to this effect is not mentioned. It was only followed as a tradition in that period because the situation demanded it. Now neither of the 2 major sects -sunnis and 12-imam shias follow it.
So why attach any religious significance to this at all. The way it is structured its something like a pre-requisite adopted for gaining membership into a syndicate.

[think]

Mr. Grayson; from where I left of ; the phychological impact for the 16 year old who is about to conquer the world is now subconciously a slave. When this person reaches 30 to 40 years of age he is proud to call himself an abde syedna(slave of syedna) subconciously a submissive nature is already adopted. Being a master slave relationship ,the slave needs food and clothing. The masters are shrewed. The 52nd introduced saya qurta and topi. "wear this you slave so we can know where our slaves are in the crowd". Now this slave nature is passed on from father to son and mother to daughter. All the royals have to do is make more babies so they can rule over the slaves. That is one of the reason you see a 60 year old man cowing down to a 18 year old kid. Being of slave mentality whatever the slave earns he first has to surrender to the master. That is why you see people will not spend on themselves or their children but save for the master. Now mastery demands that master should feed the slaves. so here comes the 53rd. and starts a dabba scheme. Feeding frenzy is on. The master is feeding the slaves. Let me digress, during the month of ramadan Hussain's house in madenah was full of people and hussain himself use to feed the travellers and the hungry, Take the example of Imam Zainul abedin, he used to feed the leppers. Both are same acts of feeding but there is a fine, suttle line seperating the two. one leads to heaven and one to hell. I would rather be Abdullah "Abde Allah " slave of Allah than abde syedna slave of a mortal.

[think]

Mr Zinger. I have never asked for jehad . Bohri people are a culture of peace loving people . How many bohris do you see in the army? My aim is to change back to the days of peace and happiness that prevailed before the 51st. in the bohri community. The ruthless masters of a religion that really belongs to Allah have made us worse than animals. I see fanatism everywhere . I see bohris beating up bohris. Rude behaviours. Religious clashes between father and son and mother and daughter. In golden days gone by this was unheard of as a bohri character. The cruel masters have phycologically played havoc on the uneducated and guillabe. These rituals that ask for slavery and these technicolor safai chithis causing division between two bohris should be stopped.

[Humsafar]

Well an abde comes in many different forms. You can be an abde of the kothar or you can be an abde of your own personal version of progress. If airing personal views is harmful to the reformist cause then maybe you should change this forum to be more like maalumat.com. I am sure the original reformist ideas were thought of as over the top. But here they are, and here we are!! If this forum is truly free, then everyone should be allowed to express their opinion, doesn't matter how over the top it might be. Each one of us is responsible for our opinions. Let us just debate each other and not restrict each other.

Although I would not come down as harshly as AZ has in his post, I'm in general agreement with him. You are correct, we're all abdes to our received wisdom and conditioned minds. But that of course is not what I meant by "abde" and you know it very well. You also know that this forum could not have been freer given the range of ideas and opinions it permits. So there is no question of restricting debate or opinion into one particular channel.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a "reformist" forum and when it comes discussing reformist issues and those who speak in its name should at least be mindful of the official reformist agenda and objectives. All kinds of disgruntled people come here to unburden their frustration and invariably do so indiscriminately without caring how it will be perceived. Although everyone speaks for themselves here but when a "reformist" (disgruntled Bohra) speaks it is invariably taken as a reformist opinion/position. So personal opinions of all these freelance "reformists" over the years has created an impression that reformists are nothing but a bunch of whiny babies who hate the Dai, are obsessed with money matters and, most damagingly, against the Bohra faith. This is absolutely the wrong image of reformists that has been created. And we all who care must try to change this perception.

It has been said again and again that reformists have no issues with the basic tenets of the faith. But when, in context of this thread, people started questioning misaaq it became necessary to point out that they cannot do that. In case of Bohra spring too, he went on and on a rant about electing the Dai and pushing the "limits of progress". That is all fine as personal opinion but when said in conjunction with the debate on reform, within the official reformist framework and on the reformist forum such opinion becomes loose, irresponsible and damaging to our cause.

That said, I realise that given the nature of this format of discussion there is no way of labelling one's post as "official" or "personal opinion". We cannot expect much care from fly-by night freelancers who would continue to create confusion and muddy the water. But those who are here for the long haul and claim to be reformists must be careful not to inadvertently damage the cause they seem to espouse.

I know it is a losing battle, against the Kothar and also against the false perception of who we are and what we stand for.

[anajmi]

But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a "reformist" forum and when it comes discussing reformist issues and those who speak in its name should at least be mindful of the official reformist agenda and objectives.

Then let me re-iterate. Restrict this forum to allow only your kind of thought process. And then stop calling it free. Start issuing pjamaat cards to people like yourself and AZ and the progressive movement will progress far and wide.

[Grayson]

the phychological impact for the 16 year old who is about to conquer the world is now subconciously a slave. When this person reaches 30 to 40 years of age he is proud to call himself an abde syedna(slave of syedna) subconciously a submissive nature is already adopted.
.....
That is why you see people will not spend on themselves or their children but save for the master. Now mastery demands that master should feed the slaves. so here comes the 53rd. and starts a dabba scheme.

If you're arguing that misaaq psychologically impacts the thinking of 16 year olds I disagree to a good extent. I'd like to believe the subsequent submissive nature was subconsciously instilled long before then. I was (and know of many) of those 16 year olds who probably think the culture around them since childhood has more to do with sticking to such mentality rather than an oath of allegiance taken in my mid-teens.
.....
We may say Abde Syedna but the Abd part is not often the case (atleast nowhere near compared to one time actual slaves). Propagandized control yes, but in actual practice, it's more timid than enslaved.

Perhaps it's just me, but things aren't as Moula-centric as you describe. It has it's place during functions of faith and society, but other than that it's not as constant a submission at the thought of him. This is coming from a firm orthodox household and family, although I admit with Western World influences. Not to continue to beat a dead horse, but differences in culture is often differences in how we interpret faith. Atleast that's how I perceive it.

[Grayson]

zinger,

A little off-topic but still pertaining to our conversation.
It's a Bohra practice that I'm sure many people have engaged in where we do wadaahvnu to family members on the eve of their waras. It's in good fun and celebration and we try to sprinkle a little faith in it which is meant of good intention with religious thought. Needless to say, it's not doctrine (may or may not be in Bushaeba's sahifa; haven't checked) yet it's something we do in celebration with light natured Islamic thoughts in mind. I partake in it myself, and don't see it too different from cake cutting ceremonies. More tradition and goodwill than anything.

However the way it's practiced these days with aamils, bhaisahebs, shehzadas and moula sickens me a little. Cause it's excessive, observers are melodramatically emotional, their's pomp and glory all over the place, and it happens so often. For pretty much every function. There's wadhaavanu to the tune of madeh while people glower at the sight and always some sort of payment made on behalf of who's thaali it is. Not to mention, often multiple wadhaavnu's. Glorification and constant excess that makes my heart sink at the sight. I do not find it in me to honestly justify this practice. So I'm not putting you on the defensive so much as wondering what your thoughts are, so that I could understand another view.

[Grayson]

Then let me re-iterate. Restrict this forum to allow only your kind of thought process. And then stop calling it free. Start issuing pjamaat cards to people like yourself and AZ and the progressive movement will progress far and wide.

I don't mean to kick someone while they're down but there's no cohesion among most people here. There's a mission statement, but that's about it. I see the Progressive Movement more of an ideal than any tangible movement that's going on. There's too much infighting in regards to various aspects as well as differing views and people that are lost in identity. There's no unity towards common purpose as everyone has a different idea of how to achieve it. So while there is a practicing sect that takes on the name of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras, there's not much else.
I agree and support the ideal; do what I can for those around me in the name of progress. But not in the name of Progressive Dawoodi Bohras.
Someone please argue otherwise.

[Humsafar]

But let's not lose sight of the fact that this is a "reformist" forum and when it comes discussing reformist issues and those who speak in its name should at least be mindful of the official reformist agenda and objectives.

Then let me re-iterate. Restrict this forum to allow only your kind of thought process. And then stop calling it free. Start issuing pjamaat cards to people like yourself and AZ and the progressive movement will progress far and wide.

If you want to keep your leg up then that's fine. But is it difficult for you understand that the "reformist message" is getting lost in the plethora of individual opinions? This is a genuine concern and we are expressing it and you're needlessly seeing it as an attempt to impose a thought process. And you - a Bohra turned Sunni - who has had a free and rabble-rousing reign here should be the last one to complain.

[anajmi]

But is it difficult for you understand that the "reformist message" is getting lost in the plethora of individual opinions?

Am I that difficult to understand?

You want people to start thinking like you do - Check
You don't want people to express their individual opinions - Check
You want people to think free only as long as it is inside their own homes - Check
It is a genuine concern that individual opinions are detrimental to the progessive movement - Check

Am I correct so far? And yet, I am saying all this to keep my leg up, right?

I would say that the biggest harm caused to the progressive movement are two faced people like yourself.

[Humsafar]

You want people to start thinking like you do - Check

No, we want people to start understanding the basic agenda and objectives of reform.

You don't want people to express their individual opinions - Check

All people are doing is expressing their individual opinions. All we are saying is that a free opinion as in "electing a Dai" (which BTW has been repeatedly expressed here) can and does misrepresent the reformist agenda. People are free to express them but they must make sure that they are not confused with the reform movement.

You want people to think free only as long as it is inside their own homes - Check

A ridiculous exaggeration that doesn't merit a response.

It is a genuine concern that individual opinions are detrimental to the progessive movement - Check

You're twisting the words. Individual opinions that run counter to the movement and expressed on behalf of the movement are of course detrimental to the movement. This is no different from individual opinions that run counter to the Quran and expressed on behalf of the Quran are of course detrimental to the Quran.

Am I correct so far? And yet, I am saying all this to keep my leg up, right?

No, you are not correct. And yes, you are.

I would say that the biggest harm caused to the progressive movement are two faced people like yourself.

That is your genuine individual opinion and although it misrepresents me, my reputation or image is not at stake here. Therefore you're free to express more of it without any qualifier.

[ghulam muhammed]

To cut short, how about putting a sort of symbol like for example an (R) alongside the participants name for people who are the official reformists ? This would clearly differentiate between the "Official" members of PDB and others and readers could very well understand the issues from a reformist point of view and/or otherwise.

[JC]

The whole idea of Reform is to have an Accountable, Fair, Transprent and Democratic Community ..... so even if I am Progressive or Reformist I may disagree on some topics or issues with other progressive/reformist brothers. We do not want to have a theology like current bohra cult where no questions can be asked or disagreement is not allowed - I donot have to be a slave of anybody and it should be clear and remembered that I am a member by choice and not by force.