Intercession and divinty

[JC]

Human being,

Good question ....... Khadeeja was not called under Cloak (she was dead by then, may be that is the reason??!!), but by default she should be 'Ahle-Bait being mother of Fatema (even if you do not allow other wives of prophet) .... and IF all the sons after sons after sons of Fatema (that is Imams) are Ahle-Bait why cannot Khadeeja be??

What about Musa Kazim or Nizar or Ali Reza?? If son of Malik-us-Ushtar is good for bowing to and being considered Ibn-e-Ard-Allah why not Musa Kazim, Nizar or Ali Rexa??? They were after all SONS of TRUE Imam...!!!

[Qutbi-Hero]

Aah the coward returns to run once more. Apparently, the last time you were here you said one could find the evidence in 30 seconds for whatever it was that we were discussing. How long ago was that? More than 2 years ago. Looks like you could do with some progress.

So you've dropped calling people Kafir and now prefer Coward?
Does this mean you are extremely brave because you post pixels on a screen over the Internet?
Lol you really need to get out more don't you Mr Ten Thousand Posts!
Seriously, go outside sometime Anajmi, it really isn't that scary and you may even get some Vitamin D...

[Qutbi-Hero]

you've obviously become alienated from your family, friends and community

Not really. All my family has progressed, most of my friends have progressed

Is that your way of saying they have become Sunni? Sure they have, just like I'm sure you pray Namaaz using only instruction from the Quran lol.
Why not be honest and say that everybody you know is still very much Shia, which is why you've pathetically wasted 12 years of your life on this forum trying to 'convert' someone - because you couldn't convert your own family or friends.
I look forward to you wasting another 12 years here because you have no other social life and probably no sex life either lol.

Since you've decided that the murder of the Prophets family was a good and righteous thing,

Actually, you have decided that on my behalf. That is what people like you normally do.

Sorry, did I go and make a logical conclusion? Forgive me, Shias have a habit of doing that.
Please do offer your own 'explanation' for Karbala, no doubt it will be very imaginative...

Ayat 33:33 and that "feminine to masculine crap" is but a stepping-stone.

Absolutely right. That interpretation of 33:33 is definitely a stepping stone into crap.

The family of the Prophet is crap? Oh well, so much for Shapur's dream of Muslim unity...

The Prophet SAW came out wearing a black cloak, then al-Hassan Ibn Ali came and the Prophet accommodated him under the cloak, then al-Hussain came and entered the cloak, then Fatima came and the Prophet entered her under the cloak, then Ali came and the Prophet entered him to the cloak as well. Then the Prophet recited: “Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O’ People of the House and purify you a perfect purification"

Whoa - Fatima was also in the cloak? Even after the change from feminine to masculine?

I bet you wish you could go back in time and correct Aisha don't you lol.

[Qutbi-Hero]

There are so many different ways that the “Ulema” argue to this day who is right and who is wrong. They fight and curse each other, calling each other “kaafir”. Is that the way of the Prophet (s.a.w.) ?

Of course not, unfortunately that is the way of Anajmi. You Sunnis should educate each other more often.

The whole Shia/sunni/fatimid business is a confused mess—a mumbo-jumbo of contradictory dos and don’ts even in simple acts of worship. But it doesn’t stop here: The literature has made a beast out of the mullah who was born as a human being! Now he screams at everyone who says anything that makes sense.

Not only Hadith/sectarian literature, Allah makes no mention of ANY of the concepts that have now gained tremendous popularity and have been made a part of the Islamic belief system.…..Today people can’t even think of Islam without believing in these things that have absolutely no Qur’anic basis!!!

And the Qur’an makes no mention of the names of the noble Companions either ---No Abu Bakr, no Umar, no Uthman, no Ali !!!

True, the Shia are not perfect and the Sunni are far from perfect. We should all leave Allah to judge.

Contrary to the incessant complaints from both Sunnis and the Shias, the Qur’an calls itself “completely detailed (6:114)” and “without missing ANYTHING “tibyanan likulli shay”.

The Prophet left for us the Quran AND his Ahlul Bayt. Nobody can be a complete Muslim without the Sunnat, unless you have an answer to the questions which Anajmi made a fool of himself with.

[Qutbi-Hero]

DB-L
According to Ayat 33:33, it is revealed by Allah that Family of Prophet Muhammad is purified from all “Rijs” (impurity). In definition of family, is wives included ?

Personally speaking, I would say yes they are part of the Prophets family - but not part of his 'Holy Family' as reinforced by Hadith. Moreover, as Anajmi states, your blood is obviously dearer than your wife.

The question you need to ask yourself is this - why did the wives themselves not think they were part of the Ahlul Bayt? What is your answer?

[anajmi]

DB,

When I started the discussion with you, I had no idea I will be able to beat you so easily. You are one sore loser. Anyway, the thing to note is that apart from insults, you don't actually have a counter argument to the points I raised.

Personally speaking, I would say yes they are part of the Prophets family - but not part of his 'Holy Family' as reinforced by Hadith.

Just like the Christians have the holy ghost, we have the holy family. Holy Cow!!

Ah well, on to the next moron that comes along with 33:33 and the feminine to masculine gender change argument.

[humanbeing]

Personally speaking, I would say yes they are part of the Prophets family - but not part of his 'Holy Family' as reinforced by Hadith.

Why would wives / mother of the occupant of “holy family” excluded in your personal opinion ?

Would you exclude your mother from definition of family ?

What is ‘Holy family’?

The question you need to ask yourself is this - why did the wives themselves not think they were part of the Ahlul Bayt? What is your answer?

‘Personally speaking’ Wives themselves would love to be part of Ahlul Bayt ! but its some hadith that has reinforced that they are not part of ‘Holy Family’

Wives of Prophets were also amongst the first believers of Islam, as well as assisted prophet in spreading of Islam. Wives and Daughter of Prophets would be the biggest helping hand to prophet in spreading the message to womenfolk of that era.

Its Shiaas Sunnis or wahabis who are deciding who is IN or OUT of Ahlul Bayt !

[ammar786]

The dawoodi bohra creed is Syedna = khuda. An abde syedna bohra is knowledgeable enough to know not to agree to this directly, but it is very easy to get the truth out of them with clever games. A few months back I had asked a couple of questions on this forum when it was overwhelmed by abdes. These were the two questions.

Do you believe that you can enter Jannah solely with the grace of Allah almighty, without any help from your Syedna?

Will Allah be able overrule the Dai on the day of judgment?

The answer to number 1, as expected from abdes was "NO". Allah Almighty's mercy is not enough to get you into jannah. You need permission from Syedna. Without permission from Syedna, even Allah is powerless to allow you entry into jannah. Hence Syedna = Khuda or Syedna > Khuda.

The answer to number 2 was, again as expected, "NO". The abdes had this to say - Whatever Allah wills is the will of Dai,,And whatever Dai wills is the will of Allah.......

Hence Syedna = khuda and hence abde syedna = mushrik.

just keep you foolish logic with you,

truth always remain truth.
and i am wondering, why are you so much interested to make aqa maula (t.u.s) = khuda???

[Qutbi-Hero]

DB,
When I started the discussion with you, I had no idea I will be able to beat you so easily. You are one sore loser. Anyway, the thing to note is that apart from insults, you don't actually have a counter argument to the points I raised.

You have yet to raise a single valid point because you live in your own imagination instead of reality. A common psychological disorder among people who have broken family ties. Another thing which you Sunnis do which is against Islam.

Just like the Christians have the holy ghost, we have the holy family. Holy Cow!!

No way! Do Christians believe in a divine messenger who by the will of Allah performed super-natural miracles as the Quran clearly confirms? But but but how can this be! It must be another Shia fairy-tale lol.

Ah well, on to the next moron that comes along with 33:33 and the feminine to masculine gender change argument.

Actually we started with the topic of Intercession, which is clearly stated in the Quran many times:
- O you who have believed, fear Allah and seek the means of nearness to Him and strive in His cause that you may succeed. - (5:35)
- On that day, no Intercession will benefit except that of one to whom the Most Merciful has given permission and has accepted his word. - (20:109)
- None will have power of Intercession except he who had taken from the Most Merciful a covenant. - (19:87)
There are several other references in the Quran and still more in your Sahih Hadiths.

So, as you know full well that Intercession is an integral part of Islam, and have absolutely no argument against it, you became desperate and asked for evidence of Imam Ali in the Quran and started playing your clueless games over the meaning of the word divine.
I'm sure you'll be offering evidence of your beloved 3 in the Quran right about now, and investigating the true meaning of 'Rightly Guided' lol,

Now if you're not a 'coward' - please do answer the following questions instead of wetting your pants and ignoring them as you have done so far.
- why is Intercession justified in the Quran?
- why do your own 'authentic' books clarify who is the Ahlul Bayt?
- how do you explain the Tragedy of Karbala?
- how do you pray Namaaz using only instruction from the Quran?
Lets see how Brave you are lol.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Personally speaking, I would say yes they are part of the Prophets family - but not part of his 'Holy Family' as reinforced by Hadith.

Why would wives / mother of the occupant of “holy family” excluded in your personal opinion ?

A Mother is blood which is very different to a Wife. Please show me evidence of why a Mother would be excluded, considering the facts that RasulAllahs Mother had passed away and that Bibi Fatima was the Mother of our Imams.

‘Personally speaking’ Wives themselves would love to be part of Ahlul Bayt ! but its some hadith that has reinforced that they are not part of ‘Holy Family’

Exactly, they may want to be Ahlul Bayt but they confirm themselves that they are not. Glad you understand this. Unless you are implying that your own 'authentic' Sunni books with 'some Hadiths' are actually not 'authentic' and patently false?

Wives of Prophets were also amongst the first believers of Islam, as well as assisted prophet in spreading of Islam. Wives and Daughter of Prophets would be the biggest helping hand to prophet in spreading the message to womenfolk of that era.

Indeed, but they are not Ahlul Bayt, nor are Women supposed to lead the community. That is for the Men of the Prophets House, which is why they were murdered by the evil enemies of Islam.

By the way, do you believe in Takfir like Anajmi?

[anajmi]

Actually we started with the topic of Intercession,

Not we. You!! You've been jumping around topics like a monkey jumping on branches right from the beginning. The very first question I posted was

So according to you, the Imam is divine?

If intercession was the topic we started with, why are you posting the intercession ayahs after you got your cloock cleened?

[anajmi]

Exactly, they may want to be Ahlul Bayt but they confirm themselves that they are not.

Reading this guy's posts is like reading an Idiot's Guide To Interpreting Quran and Hadith.

The hadith simply states that Hazrat Ali's family is also part of Ahlul Bayt. It doesn't exclude anyone. And besides, the Quran is used to validate Hadith and not the other way around. If the Quran is in contradiction with a hadith, then the hadith is to be rejected. So if the Quran includes the wives of the prophet and the hadith excludes them, then the hadith is to be rejected. But only after it has been interpreted by people with a much higher IQ than this idiot.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Actually we started with the topic of Intercession,

Not we. You!! You've been jumping around topics like a monkey jumping on branches right from the beginning. The very first question I posted was

So according to you, the Imam is divine?

If intercession was the topic we started with, why are you posting the intercession ayahs after you got your cloock cleened?

Is there a Sunni who ever tells the truth lol.

Lets recap shall we Einstein, as the first page of this thread clearly shows:
You said, Syedna=Khuda, which is a lie.
I said, Syedna=Intercessor, which may or may not be accurate for a Dai, but as a Quranic concept is most certainly true.
You then asked if an Imam is divine because you hate the idea of Intercession as it makes you cry yourself to sleep every night.

So in reality, it did start with Intercession. Which is why you have tried to twist it in to something else like the 'coward' you are.
Illiterate Sunnis love to change the subject when they are losing, sorry I mean loosing lol.

[Qutbi-Hero]

Exactly, they may want to be Ahlul Bayt but they confirm themselves that they are not.

Reading this guy's posts is like reading an Idiot's Guide To Interpreting Quran and Hadith.

Reading your posts requires a dictionary lol.

The hadith simply states that Hazrat Ali's family is also part of Ahlul Bayt.

Say it ain't so! So why did you Anti-Shias murder Imam Ali and his family?

It doesn't exclude anyone.

Surely you will now proceed to give evidence of the 3 being Ahlul Bayt too!

And besides, the Quran is used to validate Hadith and not the other way around. If the Quran is in contradiction with a hadith, then the hadith is to be rejected.

Very true and very interesting.
So you are categorically saying that your beloved and definitely 'authentic' Sahih Hadiths (which you base so much of Sunni'ism on) are not to be trusted. Be sure to tell that to all your eminent Sunni Scholars, you complete and utter simpleton lol.

Actually I can see it now, on the next episode of SunniTV presented by your best buddy Zakir Naik - "we have received notification from some deranged dipshit called Anajmi, that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim (not to mention your other not so revered books) are full of Hadiths that should be rejected - we shall follow his mighty advice and completely change our entire Sunni faith to accommodate him"

You really are the 'Village Idiot' aren't you Anajmi. I'm glad you're here, I'd be bored otherwise lol.

[anajmi]

Say it ain't so! So why did you Anti-Shias murder Imam Ali and his family?

Actually, there were no shias during the time of Imam Ali so there couldn't have been anti-shias. Just like Hazrat Uthman wasn't murdered by Anti-Sunnis.

Surely you will now proceed to give evidence of the 3 being Ahlul Bayt too!

These irrelevant nuggets are getting tiresome and display your lack of ability to deal with the facts.

So you are categorically saying that your beloved and definitely 'authentic' Sahih Hadiths (which you base so much of Sunni'ism on) are not to be trusted. Be sure to tell that to all your eminent Sunni Scholars, you complete and utter simpleton lol.

No. I am categorically saying that your interpretation of the hadith is faulty. Simple. All the Sunni scholars have got it right.

I said, Syedna=Intercessor,

Can you please repost that particular post where you said Syedna=Intercessor? Thanks

[Qutbi-Hero]

Say it ain't so! So why did you Anti-Shias murder Imam Ali and his family?

Actually, there were no shias during the time of Imam Ali so there couldn't have been anti-shias. Just like Hazrat Uthman wasn't murdered by Anti-Sunnis.

I was so hoping that you'd actually possess some knowledge. but it turns out you're just a clueless clown.
Shias may not have been defined as a separate sect until later, but people who were the Party Of Ali were most certainly in existence.

Surely you will now proceed to give evidence of the 3 being Ahlul Bayt too!

These irrelevant nuggets are getting tiresome and display your lack of ability to deal with the facts.

Even more irrelevant is asking for the evidence of Imam Ali in the Quran - which seems to be your only argument lol.
Actually, despite your decade long campaign to be of consequence, you yourself are completely irrelevant too, aren't ya buddy...

So you are categorically saying that your beloved and definitely 'authentic' Sahih Hadiths (which you base so much of Sunni'ism on) are not to be trusted. Be sure to tell that to all your eminent Sunni Scholars, you complete and utter simpleton lol.

No. I am categorically saying that your interpretation of the hadith is faulty. Simple. All the Sunni scholars have got it right.

You're kidding me, you mean it's all just a matter of interpretation lol. Sunnis do love to twist and turn things until it fits their own ideas. Kind of like the way Sunnis justify murder and mayhem in the name of Allah.

Anyway, lets look at what you actually said Forrest, I appreciate someone as dim as you can quickly forget.

The hadith simply states that Hazrat Ali's family is also part of Ahlul Bayt. It doesn't exclude anyone. And besides, the Quran is used to validate Hadith and not the other way around. If the Quran is in contradiction with a hadith, then the hadith is to be rejected. So if the Quran includes the wives of the prophet and the hadith excludes them, then the hadith is to be rejected. But only after it has been interpreted by people with a much higher IQ than this idiot.

Your Sunni scholars accept this particular Hadith as being authentic. Therefore your Sunni scholars accept it as being complimentary to the Quran.
The interpretation is quite clear to anyone with an IQ above zero. If RasulAllah wanted to include his Wives in his Ahlul Bayt, he could have easily done so, but he didn't. Get it Forrest? Good.

I said, Syedna=Intercessor,

Can you please repost that particular post where you said Syedna=Intercessor? Thanks

Not only are you blind to the truth, you're also blind in your eyes lol. Here you go Forrest = http://dawoodi-bohras.com/forum/viewtop ... 95#p112135
You even replied to that post but now claim you didn't see it. Just what kind of strange freak of nature are you Anajmi?
Do you actually read anything before you post, or do you simply copy/paste any old Sunni nonsense that you find on google?

[anajmi]

If RasulAllah wanted to include his Wives in his Ahlul Bayt, he could have easily done so, but he didn't. Get it Forrest? Good.

Actually RasulAllah didn't need to. Allah included his wives in the Ahlul Bayt in the Quran. Nothing you can do about it.

Another case closed.

[Muslim First]

To all
Kindly read following article to have Sunni perceptive.

Prophet’s Wives are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... wives.html

With or without me certain discussions are bound to turn into Shia Sunni debate

[Muslim First]

More on Ahl e Bait

Prophet’s Daughters are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... hters.html

Word Games With Verse 33:33
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... games.html

Half Hadith-ing (Zaid ibn Arqam)
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... arqam.html

The Status of Ahlel Bayt
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... tatus.html

Verse 33:33 Does Not Make Anyone Infallible
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... ility.html

Complete list on Ahl e bait see
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... -bayt.html

[Muslim First]

Intercession
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8107&p=109757&hilit ... ay#p109757

[Qutbi-Hero]

If RasulAllah wanted to include his Wives in his Ahlul Bayt, he could have easily done so, but he didn't. Get it Forrest? Good.

Actually RasulAllah didn't need to. Allah included his wives in the Ahlul Bayt in the Quran. Nothing you can do about it.

Another case closed.

So you're saying Sunni Hadiths are fabricated, and that the wives should have been the successors, lol!

Seriously Anajmi, you can't spell, you can't read, you can't make a single logical argument and you can't convert anyone no matter how hard you try - only thing you can do is make a fool of yourself. You are nothing more than a troll who doesn't belong here, but insists on staying because you are a compulsive liar and an abject loser/looser lol.

[Qutbi-Hero]

To all
Kindly read following article to have Sunni perceptive.

Prophet’s Wives are Ahlel Bayt
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... wives.html

With or without me certain discussions are bound to turn into Shia Sunni debate

Shouldn't you have called yourself 'Sunni First' lol.

Narrated by Yazid Ibn Hayyan from Sahih Muslim:

We went to Zaid Ibn Arqam and said to him:
We said: "Who are his Ahlul-Bayt that the Prophet was referring to? Are they his wives?" Thereupon Zaid said: "No, by Allah! A woman lives with a man as his wife for a while, he then divorces her and she goes back to her parents and her people. The Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet are his lineage and his descendants for whom the acceptance of charity is prohibited"

As Anajmi would say, Case Closed lol.

By the way, don't forget to believe all the Christian propaganda websites so you can become a 'Christian First' lol.

[Muslim First]

DB
AS
Shia Sunni dispute has been going on since the time of Imam Jafar.
I am a Muslim who only cares about offering 5 prayers regularly and taking care of my business, family and my health. Prophet is gone and we are left with Quran revealed to him and how to worship Allah swt.

You worship him thru your Tagoots and I worship him directly.

Personally I do not care who is part of Ahl e Bait but I do some reserch when I see hot discussion regarding them. I do not see any member of Ahl e Bait guiding Ummah today. Memory of them only creates dis harmony in Ummah. Shia Sunni fighting. Useless. Cursing in open or in secrete.

I bid you peace and please call me anything you want.
Please note this is Islam forum and this web site is not "tere Baapki". So stop telling wether I belong here or not.

Wasalaam

[porus]

More on Ahl e Bait
Word Games With Verse 33:33
http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBay ... games.html

The explanation given by someone calling himself Ibn al-Hashimi is quite novel. He insists that the last portion of ayat 33:33 refers exclusively to wives of the prophet. The reason why there is a sudden switch from female to male pronoun is that the word "ahl" is masculine. This betrays a glaring ignorance of elementary Arabic.

It is immaterial whether the noun referring to a person is grammatically female or male, Arabic requires that if a male is being addressed then male pronoun must be used. If a female is addressed then the female pronoun must be used. For example, if you address a Khalifa, a female noun referring to a male person, you would use a male pronoun. You would say "tafaddal, ya khalifa" not "tafaddali" which you would use to address a female person.

The same astounding error is repeated by Ibn al-Hishami in reference to ayat 11:72-73. He says that here, "ahl" refers to single woman despite the use of masculine plural noun. This is a false explanation. The reason for the use of the male plural pronoun is that it is a standard form of 'dua' /'greeting' which uses standard male form. Thus you would use male plural form 'as-salamu alaykum' regardless of whether you are addressing single male, single female or in their plurality. In other words, dragging 11:72-73 in this discussion is quite irrelevant.

Let us play a 'word game' with the last portion of ayat 33:33.

If the words 'ahlal bayti, were removed from the ayat, would the sentence still make sense? Yes, it would. However if it now refers exclusively to wives, then surely the pronouns must be female. The words would have to read "innama yuridullahu liyudhhiba ankunna ar-rijsa; wa yutahhirukunna tathiran". Even in the original, the portion consists of two sentences. From innama to ahlal bayti is one sentence. The waaw (called waaw of atf) begins the new sentence. If, in this second sentence, Quran was referring to wives, it would use the female pronouns I just mentioned above in color, because at this point the use of ahlal bayti is done and no longer grammatically relevant.

But of course, we are not here to tamper with the words or the arrangement of the Quran.

We can conclude that the switch to male masculine plural pronoun indicates that the group being addressed is more than one male, or a mixed male/female group consisting of at least one male. Does Quran explicitly state who Ahlul Bayt are? Of course it does not. A reasonable inference may be made that it refers to Prophet and his wives. But this is not the view of authentic hadith.

While Quran does not explicitly state who Ahlul Bayt are, we can be certain that they are Panjatan and Panjatan only through the study of hadith.

What should be clearly stated is that people who continually use translations of the Quran to justify their views on this forum (and call those who differ from them kafirs and idol worshipers) are some of the most ignorant people I have come across. I agree with reputable scholars that Quran is 'untranslatable'. Literal translations do not bring out the essence of the message and purvey what look like old mid-eastern myths and fantasies.

Let me give an example. The word 'tarteelan' appears in the Quran in Sura al-furqan (25:32) and in Sura al-muzzammil (73:4). The word is a 'masdar' or verbal noun and is used in Arabic construction called 'mafool mutlaq', a so called 'absolute object' or 'cognate accusative'. The word cannot be translated despite attempts at it. In al-furqan, Allah is 'rattiling' and in al-muzzammil, 'rattiling' is being commanded by Allah. However, the explanation of 'rattil tarteelan' by Ali ibn Abi Talib is clear to all who study Tajweed. It is well rehearsed in several hadith.

Getting back to 'ahla l-bayti' in 33:33, why is there a fatha (zabar) on lam of ahl? If this is an address, why is 'munada', "Ya" or "Ya ayyuha", missing? If it was present, it would explain the zabar. One cannot get to the bottom of these questions unless one studies the 'iraab' of the Quran.

I suggest we approach translations warily, indeed, and ignore those who paste them here at the drop of a hat.

Personally I do not care who is part of Ahl e Bait

If you are serious student of the Quran, then you owe it to yourself to find out what the word refers to. Not caring about a verse of the Quran because of a personal preference is not what your teacher should teach you.

[anajmi]

The bottom line is this, after all this explanation of Arabic, one cannot conclude from the Quran that Ahlul Bayt does not refer to the wives of the prophet (saw). You have to go to the hadith. This is idiotic. Two simple observations

First one.

When 33:33 was revealed, did anyone start wondering - Oh My God. Who are the fortunate people referred to as Ahlul Bayt? We cannot know from the Quran. We have to wait till the prophet (saw) reveals the hadith. Arabic grammar is way to complex for us to figure this out and assume that these are the wives of the prophet!!!!

Second one.
Any one who has no knowledge of hadith and starts reading the Quran with understanding. He is reading Surah 33. He reads 33:32 and then 33:33. Will he start wondering - Oh My God. Who are the fortunate people referred to as Ahlul Bayt? I cannot figure this out because the English (or whichever) translation I am reading cannot properly give me the Arabic Grammar. And to assume that it refers to the wives of the prophet (saw) just because the section refers to the wives of the prophet would be grammatically a grave mistake. Besides, the Arabic grammar as studied by porus is obviously telling me that it is not the wives. I will have to go to hadith to figure this out.

Of course not. So anyone who says that the Quran does not explicitly clarify who the Ahlul Bayt are is someone who hasn't understood the Quran or Arabic or anything in between.

[porus]

If Quran was easy to understand on its own, there would have been no need for the companions to seek explanation of ayats from the Prophet. And Ali would not have been approached for explanation of 'tarteel'. That is the stuff of hadith.

One of the fundamental sciences of the Quran is tafseer. If you want to make any headway in understanding the Quran you will need to know about tafseer, which refers to lots of hadith. Of course, we have some people who know Quran neither knowing Arabic nor knowing tafseer and claim they have perfect understanding of the Quran reading only a translation. You do not take them seriously and they are best ignored. Quran warns you against them. You listen to them at your peril in hereafter.

[porus]

. Besides, the Arabic grammar as studied by porus is obviously telling me that it is not the wives. I will have to go to hadith to figure this out.

It cannot be wives alone as I have explained the use of the personal male plural pronoun 'kum' in reference to ahlal bayt. You do not know Arabic, let alone the sublime classical Arabic of the Quran. Try not to act superior. Your moronic ignorance is on full display here.

[anajmi]

Yeah but make sure that you read the tafseer that is approved by porus eh?

There are enough tafseers out there which say that the wives are a part of the Ahlul Bayt. This is what I keep saying over and over again. Tafseers come into picture when you cannot understand the context of something being said in the Quran. 33:33 doesn't need any tafseer. It is quite clear. No one who is reading 33:32/33 will wonder who the Ahlul Bayt are, if he/she is not inclined towards idol worship and already brainwashed.

This is the part that I like about the Ahlus Sunnah. They claim the Quran to be the ultimate authority. If there is differences in tafseer, go back to the Quran. When we go back to the Quran, instead of becoming complex, it becomes clear. Save for those who want to ignore that which is clear.

It cannot be wives alone as I have explained the use of the personal male plural pronoun 'kum' in reference to ahlal bayt. You do not know Arabic. Try not to act superior. Your moronic ignorance is on full display here.

It is not the wives alone. Obviously, the prophet (saw) is included in Ahlul Bayt!! Even without knowledge of Arabic, that part is easy to figure out.

[porus]

It is not the wives alone. Obviously, the prophet (saw) is included in Ahlul Bayt!! Even without knowledge of Arabic, that part is easy to figure out.

Could be. I mentioned it as a reasonable inference. However Quran is not explicit, hence clarification is needed from "those who know". And it has been forthcoming in authentic hadiths. Ahlul Bayt refer to Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husayn.

[anajmi]

However Quran is not explicit

Actually, it is quite explicit. Read it again. You claim to know Arabic don't you? Your "those who know" obviously do not know enough!!

Read 33:32 and then 33:33 and then tell me if you are confused about who is being referred to in 33:33. Actually, don't bother, I already know what you are going to say. This is for those who haven't yet being corrupted by porus' "those who know".