Intercession and divinty

[anajmi]

Ibn al-Hashimi hits the nail on the head with this gem.

It is clear that the Shia first make up their beliefs and then read the Quran, as opposed to first reading the Quran and then deriving their beliefs from it. When verses of the Quran conflict with Shia doctrine, then possibilities are sought to explain away discrepancies.

[porus]

However Quran is not explicit

Actually, it is quite explicit. Read it again. You claim to know Arabic don't you? Your "those who know" obviously do not know enough!!

Read 33:32 and then 33:33 and then tell me if you are confused about who is being referred to in 33:33. Actually, don't bother, I already know what you are going to say. This is for those who haven't yet being corrupted by porus' "those who know".

When I say Quran is not explicit, what I mean is that Quran does not mention any names. One of the rules of tafseer is that explanation must first be sought in the Quran itself. That is, Quran should be taken to be its own tafseer in the first instance. That is also what Quran itself recommends.

Take any ayat where the phrase ahlul bayt is mentioned. Does it grant that epithet to a wife? If it does, then you may ask why is that? It is because those women, besides having married a Prophet, were also mothers of the Prophets from progeny of Ibrahim.

We can speculate the reason for including Fatima among ahlul bayt. It is because she is mother of progeny of Muhammad. And Ali because he is the father of of Imams. Why all this talk about progeny? Because Quran itself mentions its importance. In sura al-kawthar, Prophet is promised that his progeny will abide because he has been given al-kawthar, that is Fatima.

However, there is no need for speculation. Prophet has made it clear, according to authentic hadith, who the ahlul bayt are. They are Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasn and Husayn.

[anajmi]

Here is another brilliant piece of analysis

If Allah was purposefully switching tenses and this so clearly showed Allah’s intention, why then do the Shia Ulema–-as shown by Al-Islam.org–-argue that there had been Tahreef bit Tarteeb (i.e. tampering in the order of verses) of the Quran? How was Allah purposefully switching tenses when it was supposedly the Sahabah who manipulated the Quran’s order and it was they who decided the order, not Allah? This, to us, does not make any logical sense. How can the Shia further two contradictory claims, on the one hand claiming that the Sahabah may have purposefully placed the purification verse in the middle of the verses to the Prophet’s wives, and on the other hand claiming that this was Allah who was purposefully switching tenses to prove some point?

You can replace "shia" by "porus" above and it will be as if anajmi is speaking instead of Ibn al-Hashimi!!

[anajmi]

However, there is no need for speculation. Prophet has made it clear, according to authentic hadith, who the ahlul bayt are. They are Muhammad, Ali, Fatima, Hasn and Husayn.

As I have said before, any hadith, or its interpretation, that contradicts with the understanding of the Quran, needs to be rejected. The Quran has included the wives in the Ahlul Bayt. Any hadith which seeks to exclude them needs to be rejected, as no hadith, doesn't matter how authentic, cannot supercede the Quran.

[anajmi]

When I say Quran is not explicit, what I mean is that Quran does not mention any names.

Actually, if you read 33:32, the wives are clearly mentioned.

[porus]

When I say Quran is not explicit, what I mean is that Quran does not mention any names.

Actually, if you read 33:32, the wives are clearly mentioned.

Yes, both 33:32 and 33:33 talk about wives, but primarily to admonish them and to advise them to behave decorously. We are here concerned only with the last part of 33:33 when pronouns change from female to male. In copies of the Quran, there is absolute stop before that last part (denoted by Arabic letter Tau). This suggests that that part is distinct from what went before. I recall that I have covered this issue thoroughly previously on this forum.

I notice that Madina Mushaf has replaced Tau with Jeem (permissible stop). We should expect that of Saudis

[anajmi]

when pronouns change from female to male

Here we go again. It is like talking to 6 year olds who've been alive for 1400 years.

Yes, both 33:32 and 33:33 talk about wives, but primarily to admonish them and to advise them to behave decorously.

Precisely. This is the rijs that Allah wants to remove from them so that they can be purified!!

According to your interpretation

Allah - O wives of the prophet, I admonish you and advise you to behave decorously
Allah - I only want to cleanse and purify you. But when I say "you", I do not mean you of the previous ayah but you as specified by the hadith.

[porus]

Yes, both 33:32 and 33:33 talk about wives, but primarily to admonish them and to advise them to behave decorously.

Precisely. This is the rijs that Allah wants to remove from them so that they can be purified!!

So, Allah says to wives of Prophet, "Behave or else".

Then he goes on to say to them, "O don't bother. Sorry I said that. I am actually going to purify you. You will then automatically behave. So my warning is not serious after all. Ha, ha!"

I think I have had enough of this!

[badrijanab]

Dear Porus bhai,

Thanks for your enlightening post. Splendid.

Best regards

[Muslim First]

Br porus
Ok so I accept that Ahl e bait is only panjatans. They are all gone. Wives of Prophet are now not part of Ahl e bait. So they have lower status than Ali's family.

Now how does it help me to worship Allah SWT? Should I pray every day thru them? Is Imam 12 and hiding Imam and Agakhan and Dai representing hiding imam are guides of Islam now?

What is purpose today who is Ahl e bait or not?

She'd some light for me, please

JK

[anajmi]

So, Allah says to wives of Prophet, "Behave or else".

Actually, Allah have never said "Behave or else".

Allah is saying behave and you will be purified. Plain and simple.

The senseless version - Allah is saying - Wives have to behave but someone else will be purified.

[porus]

Dear Porus bhai,

Thanks for your enlightening post. Splendid.

Best regards

You are welcome. Thanks.

[anajmi]

Here is another misinterpretation perpetrated by these people. Allah never says that he has purified the Ahlul Bayt. He says he wants to purify the Ahlul Bayt.

Innam Yureedu Allahu - Indeed Allah wants to.

So in this case what makes sense?

O wives of the prophet, Allah admonishes you and advises you to behave decorously because Allah wants to purify you.
Or
O wives of the prophet, Allah admonishes you and advises you to behave decorously because Allah wants to purify Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.
Or
O wives of the prophet, Allah admonishes you and advises you to behave decorously because Allah is going to purify Ali, Fatima, Hassan and Hussain.

As is obvious, only the first one makes sense.

[porus]

Br porus
Ok so I accept that Ahl e bait is only panjatans. They are all gone. Wives of Prophet are now not part of Ahl e bait. So they have lower status than Ali's family.

Now how does it help me to worship Allah SWT? Should I pray every day thru them? Is Imam 12 and hiding Imam and Agakhan and Dai representing hiding imam are guides of Islam now?

What is purpose today who is Ahl e bait or not?

She'd some light for me, please

JK

Br MF,

I am sure you are sincere in your prayers and I pray that Allah accepts them.

It is not possible for you to follow Quran on your own. Like most Muslims, you rely on guidance from people, books and internet. Quran's promise is that there will be a righteous Imam/Guide from the progeny of Ibrahim. Surah al-Kawthar extends this promise to progeny of Muhammad through Fatima.

Implication is that progeny of Muhammad will abide and from among them there will be righteous Imam. Since we do not now know the identity of the righteous Imam, it is your responsibility to make sure that you follow the right Imam, that is, the person whose help you seek to understand the Quran and your mission. One has to be careful because Allah warns in al-baqrah (2:166-167), that the person you follow may disown you on the Day of Judgment.

All of us tend to be brainwashed early in childhood in the 'truth' of the point of view of our sect and therefore we view it as the only right one. Along with that bias, we are invested in the social set-up that guarantees us security of friendship, ritual and choice of marriage partners. You are aware of the dangers inherent in this set-up which you have witnessed on this site of some person or family unscrupulously setting themselves up as overlords.

One solution is to understand the Quran on its own terms. And be wary of any teacher who denigrates sects other than his own. Both Shia and Sunni have legitimate interpretations but only Allah knows the truth. Even Wahhabis and their allies have a good case on Tawheed. I do not begrudge them their beliefs. What I object to is their tacit support of violence against other sects.

Other than that, I am afraid, you are on your own in finding a right way for you.

[porus]

Here is another misinterpretation perpetrated by these people. Allah never says that he has purified the Ahlul Bayt. He says he wants to purify the Ahlul Bayt.

Innam Yureedu Allahu - Indeed Allah wants to.

What a moron! As far as we are concerned, when Allah wants something then we are to take it as having already happened. That is from all tafseers of the Quran, bar none.

Allah also uses past tense for himself to indicate eternal present. For example: "Kana allahu aleeman hakima". Literally, "Allah was all knowing and wise".

[Muslim First]

Implication is that progeny of Muhammad will abide and from among them there will be righteous Imam.
fair, lets hope and wait
Since we do not now know the identity of the righteous Imam, it is your responsibility to make sure that you follow the right Imam,
here we go with circular statement. Correct both you an I do not know who is righteous Imam. So we do not know his present day teaching. So again what to do? Is it not enough to do 5 prayers sincerely and live clean life and walk straight path in between prayers. If you do that where is need for Imam
that is, the person whose help you seek to understand the Quran and your mission.
can you identify that person
One has to be careful because Allah warns in al-baqrah (2:166-167), that the person you follow may disown you on the Day of Judgment.
you are telling me even Prophet saw too

[anajmi]

when Allah wants something then we are to take it as having already happened.

Actually, nothing could be more wrong. He also wants all to believe doesn't he? Or has he already decided that you will forever remain an idol worshipper? Probably!! That is probably the reason why you have lost the ability to understand the Quran.

[porus]

Since we do not now know the identity of the righteous Imam, it is your responsibility to make sure that you follow the right Imam,
here we go with circular statement. Correct both you an I do not know who is righteous Imam. So we do not know his present day teaching. So again what to do? Is it not enough to do 5 prayers sincerely and live clean life and walk straight path in between prayers. If you do that where is need for Imam

Oops! I meant it is your responsibility to continue searching for the right Imam.

One has to be careful because Allah warns in al-baqrah (2:166-167), that the person you follow may disown you on the Day of Judgment.
you are telling me even Prophet saw too

Well, who is teaching you about what the Prophet said? You are clearly not following the Prophet himself now.

[porus]

when Allah wants something then we are to take it as having already happened.

Actually, nothing could be more wrong. He also wants all to believe doesn't he? Or has he already decided that you will forever remain an idol worshipper? Probably!! That is probably the reason why you have lost the ability to understand the Quran.

Correct. Allah has already decided whether you will die a believer or a non-believer.

[Muslim First]

Well, who is teaching you about what the Prophet said? You are clearly not following the Prophet himself now.

beside Quran here are links to teachings of Prophet
Ahadith
http://ahadith.co.uk/sahihbukhari.php

I did not see worship of or worship thru ahl e bait or reference to imam in it

[Muslim First]

Oops! I meant it is your responsibility to continue searching for the right Imam

How many hours a day you spend searching for Imam? Any success yet?

[anajmi]

Actually, nothing could be more wrong. He also wants all to believe doesn't he? Or has he already decided that you will forever remain an idol worshipper? Probably!! That is probably the reason why you have lost the ability to understand the Quran.

Correct. Allah has already decided whether you will die a believer or a non-believer.

in that case since Allah wants the wives to behave, it means the wives behaved and have been purified. Thanks.

[Al Zulfiqar]

welcome back porus! good to read your great posts.

your explanations with the dissertation on arabic grammar and language are lucidity itself.

[anajmi]

"lucidity itself"??
Seriously? I havent seen anyone with more knowledge of arabic get himself into a so much trouble because of it than porus and that too with someone with no knowledge of it!!

[porus]

welcome back porus! good to read your great posts.

your explanations with the dissertation on arabic grammar and language are lucidity itself.

Thank you Al Z. I am glad you found the explanation clear.

I need to correct one error.

I wrote:

"Getting back to 'ahla l-bayti' in 33:33, why is there a fatha (zabar) on lam of ahl? If this is an address, why is 'munada', "Ya" or "Ya ayyuha", missing? If it was present, it would explain the zabar. One cannot get to the bottom of these questions unless one studies the 'iraab' of the Quran."

"Ya" or "Ya ayyuha" is not 'munada' It is 'harf an-nidaa" 'Munada is "ahla l-bayti"

The dropped 'harf an-nidaa' is described by the scholars of i'rab of the Quran as 'adawaat mahdhufa' (أدوات محذفة ). This is for those among you who study Quran in Arabic.

An interesting observation is that in one well-known book of i'raab, "ahlul bayt" is called "baytun nubuwwa" (بيت النبوّة). That is, the author calls it the "House of Prophethood" rather than just the "House of the Prophet".

This phrase "House of Prophethood" was used by Zainab in the court of Yazeed (after Karbala) and also by Imam Jafar al-Sadiq to refer to themselves. They are underlining the Quranic prophecy of Imamat remaining within the House of Ibrahim.

[Humsafar]

porus, good to see you back. You were missed.

[ghulam muhammed]

Bro porus,

Welcome back, please don't go into parda for such long periods

[porus]

Humsafar and GM,

Thank you. I have been busy. I will try to contribute when I have something useful to say, Inshallah.

I remind myself of ayat 4:59, where obedience to Allah, His messenger and 'ulul amr' is commanded by Allah. It is clear to me that Panjatan were 'ulul amr' and that the epithet extended, without any doubt, to Imams up to Jafar al-Sadiq.

While none of these personalities were divine, they are held to be sacred by the Shia because of their special status as many episodes during the Life of Prophet testify.

By considering Ali simply as one of the Khulafa ar-Rashidoon, and being in the same category as others, ignores Allah's instructions in 4:59. He has been singled out by Prophet as Mawla not only after Muhammad, but also at the same time as Muhammad.

I understand that there now is a problem as we no longer have or agree on who 'ulul amr' are. This is a situation we are going to have to live with. It is quite easy however to determine, I believe, those who are not "ulul amr".

[anajmi]

What does 4:59 say?

4:59 O you who have attained to faith! Pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Apostle and unto those from among you who have been entrusted with authority; and if you are at variance over any matter, refer it unto God and the Apostle, if you believe in God and the Last Day. This is the best , and best in the end.

It is crucial to understand whether those who claim to follow 4:59 follow it in whole or a part of it which suits their beliefs? Remember, some of us intent upon interpreting the Quran based upon our beliefs and not used to believing based upon the Quran.

4:59 says obey Allah, his messenger and 'ulul amr', however, if you are at variance over any matter, refer it unto God and the Apostle and.....wait a minute.... no 'ulul amr'...hmmmm!!

I would love to see porus explain this in his trademark "lucidity" and shoot himself in the foot one more time!!

[anajmi]

They are underlining the Quranic prophecy of Imamat remaining within the House of Ibrahim.

There is no such prophecy in the Quran. I have previously had this argument with this scholar of Arabic and I was told the prophecy was implicit in the ayah that these people use to justify their beliefs. The Quran does, however, say that prophets will be from the progeny of Ibrahim. Not Imams!!

An interesting observation is that in one well-known book of i'raab, "ahlul bayt" is called "baytun nubuwwa" (بيت النبوّة). That is, the author calls it the "House of Prophethood" rather than just the "House of the Prophet".

Apparently, this author knows more than Allah himself.