Will Aqa Maula greet Bohras at the Gate of Jannah?

[Muslim First]

Br. Pro_Pig posted elsewhere

br mf,
i can guarantee you that my aqa maula will come to meet me at the GATE OF JANNAH i am sure about it.my best friend use to tell me that s/he is not succeed in this life untill he goes down 6 foot deep then only he complete s/he life.be praying 5 times a day reading quran is good but at the same time your act is more important, how u behave with your friends ,parents,etc it is said that what goes around thats comes around.if u ask christain friend they will say that jesue will take him to heaven, he will take all his sin.so br mf what u think about that.this is all human nature in what they believe.u cannot change ones believe.the whole world is repecting aqa maula, by few corrupt people i caanot change my opinion. my love is getting more on aqa maula. EVERY SEC ALLAH REMEMBER ME,EVERY MIN ALLAH BLESSES ME,EVERY HOUR ALLAH PROTECT ME,BECAUSE EVERY DAY AQA MAULAPRAYS FOE ME.

Br. Pro_Pig is so sure that he even guarantees that Aqa Maula will come to meet him at the GATE OF JANNAH. That means H.H. Maulana will reach gates of Jannah before his followers. This is not possible for the following reason:

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When this world will come to an end one day and then another world will be established, when all the former and the latter generations will be resurrected with the same bodies in which they lived and worked in the world; then they will be called to account for their beliefs and deeds and those who emerge as believing and righteous in this accountability will go to paradise and those who are proved to be disbelieving and wicked will live in hell for ever.

What does our Holey Book say about end of this Dunia?

Qur’an Majid states in 80:33-42


Finally when there come the deafening blast,
On that Day each man shall flee from his own brother,
His mother and his father,
His wife and his children.
For each one of them, on that Day, shall have enough concern of his
Own to make him indifferent to the others.
Some faces on that Day shall be shining,
Smiling and joyful.
And some faces on that Day shall be dusty
And veiled with darkness.
These shall be the faces of the disbelieving wicked

Here it is clear when this word will end with Blast, and when all the former and the latter generations will be resurrected with the same bodies in which they lived and worked in the world. They will have enough concerns that they will flee from their relatives and get away from them because horror will be so great and the matter will be so weighty.

There is an authentic Hadith related to the Intercession that states that every one of the great Messengers of firm resolve will be requested to intercede with Allah on the behalf of the creation, but each of them will say, “O myself! O myself! Today I will not ask You (O Allah) concerning anyone but myselfâ€

[Muslim First]

Here is another view of Intercession
*****
Late Fazlur Rahman in his book MAJOR THEMES OF THE QUR’AN writes;

We have already said that Qur’an rejects “saiviorship.â€

[Muslim First]

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I am surprised there is not one comment from Bohrhas on this subject.

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[seeker110]

Br MF.Here,I will give you a comment.See Br. this is our site.I should say the site of Shia's belief.Most of the time when you write we understand that you dont have the same love of Ahlebet as we do.I do not say you are wrong or right.But until it comes from our own religious leaders we will ignore your perception of Islam.
I also feel,wahabisn takes out the good pure fun out of life.It will work best in prison senario.It also devides muslims instead of universal brotherhood.
Most of the time when you Quote stuff I dont have the energy or patient to check your material.Even if I did check I might not get the same meaning that you do.
See the meaning of this sign
Roko Mut
Jane do

Simple sign with four words, if you read two words and two wordsit means one thing,but same sign if you read one word and then three words its completely opposite.When I read the Hooly Quran and simply dewel on one or two sentances,I keep getting diffrent meanings.Sometimes I feel I was not given enough at top to understand this book.I only enjoy the book when explained from the Mimber.Sometimes the Shia Alim will take one sentence and run with it for ten days to explain it throughly.
As far as you my brother,you keep throwing at me the whole context in one article,or post.Even the sunday preacher on tv takes one sentence and elabroates it for two hours,making small bites to digest.
You also use no honey in your posts.Makes me feel I should fear the wrath of Allah.Because no one will get through.Unless you live in a cave your whole life.
Again you need to get together with BR. Anajmi It looks like you two are playing Good Cop,Bad Cop.
Salams.

[Muslim First]

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Br. Seeker
Let me take one sentence from your mail;

Sometimes the Shia Alim will take one sentence and run with it for ten days to explain it throughly.

This statement sounds like famous Bohra legend" Hz Ali RA took all night to explain 'Nukta' under 'Bay' of Bismillah"

And why do not this Shia Scholars write down and publish and explain one sentence of Quran with ten days of writing? That will benefit whole Ummah.

Why after 52 Dais and many Imaams Baatini (Real to Shias) meaning of Quran is not in print?

Please tape one for me. When you have one I will give you my E-Mail.

Here again you have failed to counter my argument that it is not possible for HH Maulana to greet you at the Gate of Jannah. All you have talked about me.

Please continue, like to chat with you more.

Wasalaam
.

[Muslim First]

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Sign should read STOP and GO.

I am sure Bohra Aalim will find Zahir and Baatini meaning of Stop and Go and lacture you for ten days each.

Wasalaam
.

[seeker110]

As far as the topic goes I certainly dont believe Dai can take us to jannat.Jannat is something we all have to earn.Only Allah and his rasul(with Araz on ones behalf) can gift Jannat to anybody,provided the deed was worth in their eyes and deserving.
Often I have wondered who paid what to recieve jannat.Thus getting to know the cost.I have found the price to be as miniscule as small act of kindness,to the extent of giving life in the cause of Islam.This is the mystry of Allah we all love.
So to all my Brothers,let us be kind to each other maybe the reward is jannat.If not that the world will still be a good place for all the human beings.
The creater will not que us according to shias and sunnies or bohras and wahabis.We all will be equal.Once someone gets the feeling he has a reserved seat,he feels others are less than him.(taqabboor).Sure way of keeping one out of Jannat.Every sect promises to take us to jannat.Only Allah knows.If I dont know what will happen the next instant,the end is a pretty long shot.
The sermons prepared by Shia Alims are like a dhulan.Wrapped in all the finery.You my friend might not get the same as I.So I dont know what to give you and where will I find it.
Let us just hope we all end up in jannat.For Allah is a forgiving god.
Once I had a chance to meet a muslim brother who pointed out something interesting.His insight was that if you draw a vertical line on the map.Cutting accross Mecca.You will find two diffrent followers of Islam.On the west is kind Islam and the East of the line is Harsh one.
Personally I think that the soil or ground has a lot to do.If the soil is soft the religion is kinder.
No love lost.
Salams

[kabeer19922001]

As Muslim First wrote no comments from die hard Bohra's like pro-pig or pro-something.

Come on guys MF is challenging your basic beliefs???

[tahir]

Originally posted by seeker110:
Personally I think that the soil or ground has a lot to do.If the soil is soft the religion is kinder.

Long time back I read a book on human geography by Majid Hussein which correlates personal disposition of people with physiography and climate of the place.

People dwelling in monotonous and harsh environs like sandy deserts, snow lands, mountains, rocky plains etc are relatively dry on emotions and stoically plain (but srtong) in beliefs. In sync with their landscape, they have a straight and unilateral thought pattern and a simple lifestyle.

[Muslim First]

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Br. Tahir

You will never reform your Dawat untill you poke holes in their unislamic teachings like above. I have proven by Qur'an and Sunnah that HH Maulana will not meet Bohra at the Gate of Jannah. Next time any clergy persons says this, stand up and prove by Qur'an and sunnah that it is a lie.

In sunni mosque I see it evry week after Khutba. 3 or 4 people approching Imaam and asking for explaination or arguing about content of Khutba.
It is incumbant on every Muslim to stop wrong. (I have posted Hadith many times). It is Bohra Jamaat's duty to bring these 'Bunch of Asman ke Fariste to Ground'.

Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

Muslim First,

Hold your horses brother. In your zeal to prove things by the Quran and Hadith, you're forgetting that the tools you are using to prove things are themselves "unproven". As you know, I'm no fan of the Sayenda, and the talk about him being at the gate of jannat is a bald-faced lie, a depraved myth like so many other myths so common among the worshippers of the Dai. Why take such a stupid claim so seriously and then go to great lengths - quoting chapter and verse from sources which themselves are steeped in belief and myth - to prove it wrong.

Here's Ghalib the genius whom I can never tire of quoting:

Humko malum hai jannat ki haqiqat laikin
Dil ke khush rakhne ko Ghalib ye khayal achha hai

It so happens that you choose to poke holes in Bohra mythology, and seem to take a perverse pleasure in doing so. Nothing wrong with that. But if poking holes is what you recommend then why not take your own good advice and start poking holes in a belief system that underpins your faith?

If you do not do that then people like anajmi may start accusing you of hypocrisy.

[accountability]

brother MF: I do not know if you posted this question out of curiousity, or for fun. The question itself is very ambigeous. YOu and I, we both know, there wont be anyone greeting at the door of heaven, I do think common bohras also have the same opinion, regardless the rhetorical repetence by our clergy.

You can excuse pro pig etc, on this count.

Now let me pose a counter question to you. As I mentioned earlier, that I or ordinary bohras do not believe, that anyone will be greeting anyone at the gate of heaven. But as you are a believer in hell and heaven, what do you think, how will you be greeted at the door, if there is a door to it. How will you be judged for entry into paradise, what will be the criterea for judgment. will you be judged immediately, after the ressurection. will the resurrection be physical, in the same form of blood and flesh. will punished or reward be rendered according to our present mental capablities.

According to quran and ahadith, some vague pictures are drawn , heaven is described as a pleasent place, with lots of everthing, like water, milk, specially the beautiful women or huris, and you are allowed to indulge in all kinds of maouvers, without being the sinner. You may enjoy all of them at one time or seperatley.
You will have a very long or everlasting life, so as to enjoy the niamats in jannah.

On the other hand, there will be a person who had been judged to be in hell, for doing the same things, that the dwellers of paradise are indulging in at the very same time.

please enlighten me, according to quran or ahadith, how many if any gates are at the entry to hell or heaven. also about the ressurection.

I remember, anajmi on the same topic has posted some ayahs or hadiths, but were not concise enough. I did not ague with him, beacuse I dont think, that he wants to ponder behind the literal meaning.

[Muslim First]

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Br. Humsafar
AS
I am sorry I stepped into reform department. I forgot that you want to reform only Kothar, by holding them accountable. Wish you the best. My mail was for Br.Tahir

Wasalaam
.

[Humsafar]

MF,

Your response makes no sense. Either you missed the point of my comment or are pretending not to understand it. You shouldn't feel sorry about "stepping into the reform department", in fact my complaint is that you're not stepping into it far enough - i.e. into the Islamic realm.

The problem with your position is that all your critical faculties stop where the Quran and Hadith begin. All you care for is the literal text as if it is written in stone, immutable, permanent and for all time. You admit no cultural variation, allow no regional flavour, permit no alternative interpretations. Look at the history of Islam and see how its meaning and purpose have been contested by scholars and thinkers through the ages. What we see today is the dominance of one school of thought - the rigid, air-tight Wahabi interpretation. Quoting chapter and verse without the context, without the contested history, without the nuanced understanding is to treat religion like a dead fossilized relic. It is a lazy way to understand and practice religion. Religion - like everything else - must evolve with time or it becomes dead, irrelevant and dangerous.

Yes I'm interested in reforming the Kothar - a petty little fiefdom of mullahs that it is - but it's today's Islam and it's hijacking by bigots that worries me more. If only Muslims like you could start reforming your fanaticism.

[kalim]

Critical thinking is never in the repertoire of fanatics. If it was then we would not have suicide bombings, blowing up of trains or invading of Iraq or suppression of Palestinians or kidnapping of young soldiers. It seems so ironical that all religions claim to be of peace yet followers of each are ready to blow the others to hell. Even from the example of this message board it is clear that the non-believers are the least hostile or abusive. Yes, they may sometimes get angry, but there is not the vitriol one sees in the "true" believers. Maybe god is trying to tell us something?

Anyway, a person can only be judged by his actions. He may believe in that Quran is literal word of god or that hadiths are absolutely true, or that the da'i is god's rope on earth, yet if he resorts to abuse, violence and ridicule then his character is highly questionable. Further, if we are to judge the value of a religion or a god by the actions of its followers then I think it is safe to say that all religions are pretty rotten. I wonder what kind of god wants one to believe in abstract concepts yet ignore the very reality of living peacefully with each other?

In a secular world space must be provided for personal "vice". For example, I may want to enjoy a nice barbecued fish, or, if not married, meet a girl for a date. Why should it bother god that I want to do so? Bohra da'i says: do not eat fish unless you have said magic incantation before killing it. As to hobnobbing with a non-mehram girl, our learned Islamic judges say both need to be stoned if they do so. I sometimes wonder if god is not a sadist? Or is it that the believers lack imagination to question and move on from thousand year old taboos?

MF: leave the question of da'i meeting bohra's at gates of jannat. First prove, without resorting to your usual sources, that jannat exists and it has gates. If you have to first take on blind faith the Quran and sunna as unquestionable postulates and only then can show the existence of jannat and its gates then you have no right to question anyone else's beliefs. They too have the blind faith that the da'i's words are the living word of the Quran or that Krishna is god or that Jesus is the savior. Leave them and their belief alone if yours are no better founded but on blind leaps of faith.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

The problem with your position is that all your critical faculties stop where the Quran and Hadith begin. All you care for is the literal text as if it is written in stone, immutable, permanent and for all time. You admit no cultural variation, allow no regional flavour, permit no alternative interpretations.

Well, here is your chance. How about giving us some cultural variations of the interpretation of the quran. Give us some regional flavour too. Give us some alternative interpretations. Here are some ayahs fo ryou to start.

014.016
YUSUFALI: In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.

022.019
YUSUFALI: These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.

022.020
YUSUFALI: With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.

022.021
YUSUFALI: In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.

022.022
YUSUFALI: Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"

038.055
YUSUFALI: Yea, such! but - for the wrong-doers will be an evil place of (Final) Return!-

038.056
YUSUFALI: Hell!- they will burn therein, - an evil bed (indeed, to lie on)!-

038.057
YUSUFALI: Yea, such! - then shall they taste it,- a boiling fluid, and a fluid dark, murky, intensely cold!-

038.058
YUSUFALI: And other Penalties of a similar kind, to match them!

038.059
YUSUFALI: Here is a troop rushing headlong with you! No welcome for them! truly, they shall burn in the Fire!

040.070
YUSUFALI: Those who reject the Book and the (revelations) with which We sent our messengers: but soon shall they know,-

040.071
YUSUFALI: When the yokes (shall be) round their necks, and the chains; they shall be dragged along-

040.072
YUSUFALI: In the boiling fetid fluid: then in the Fire shall they be burned;

044.043
YUSUFALI: Verily the tree of Zaqqum

044.044
YUSUFALI: Will be the food of the Sinful,-

044.045
YUSUFALI: Like molten brass; it will boil in their insides.

044.046
YUSUFALI: Like the boiling of scalding water.

044.047
YUSUFALI: (A voice will cry: "Seize ye him and drag him into the midst of the Blazing Fire!

044.048
YUSUFALI: "Then pour over his head the Penalty of Boiling Water,

055.041
YUSUFALI: (For) the sinners will be known by their marks: and they will be seized by their forelocks and their feet.

055.042
YUSUFALI: Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

055.043
YUSUFALI: This is the Hell which the Sinners deny:

055.044
YUSUFALI: In its midst and in the midst of boiling hot water will they wander round!

078.021
YUSUFALI: Truly Hell is as a place of ambush,

078.022
YUSUFALI: For the transgressors a place of destination:

078.023
YUSUFALI: They will dwell therein for ages.

078.024
YUSUFALI: Nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink,

078.025
YUSUFALI: Save a boiling fluid and a fluid, dark, murky, intensely cold,

088.002
YUSUFALI: Some faces, that Day, will be humiliated,

088.003
YUSUFALI: Labouring (hard), weary,-

088.004
YUSUFALI: The while they enter the Blazing Fire,-

088.005
YUSUFALI: The while they are given, to drink, of a boiling hot spring,

[anajmi]

kalim,

Critical thinking is never in the repertoire of fanatics. If it was then we would not have suicide bombings, blowing up of trains or invading of Iraq or suppression of Palestinians or kidnapping of young soldiers. It seems so ironical that all religions claim to be of peace yet followers of each are ready to blow the others to hell. Even from the example of this message board it is clear that the non-believers are the least hostile or abusive. Yes, they may sometimes get angry, but there is not the vitriol one sees in the "true" believers. Maybe god is trying to tell us something?

Here is my analogy to counter this argument. Let us say there is a woman living in our houses, yours and mine. I believe the woman living in my house to be my mother. You do not.

If someone from the outside, like Salman Rushdie were to write in his book that the woman living in our houses, yours and mine, is a whore, who do you thing will get more hostile, you or I?

So you see, if an unbeliever doesn't react with hostility, it is not because he is a better person than the believer. It's just because he doesn't believe.

[anajmi]

One other thing, since you chose to mention the Palestinians and Israelis, do you seriously think that they are fighting because each one thinks that his God is better? or they just fighting for land which one wants to keep and the other wants to steal?

Why do you want to blame religion for everything? Is religion really the cause for the invasion of Iraq? Was 9-11 because of religion?

[anajmi]

kalim,

MF: leave the question of da'i meeting bohra's at gates of jannat. First prove, without resorting to your usual sources, that jannat exists and it has gates. If you have to first take on blind faith the Quran and sunna as unquestionable postulates and only then can show the existence of jannat and its gates then you have no right to question anyone else's beliefs. They too have the blind faith that the da'i's words are the living word of the Quran or that Krishna is god or that Jesus is the savior. Leave them and their belief alone if yours are no better founded but on blind leaps of faith.

Actually, the question was posed to the bohras who already believe in the existence of jannat.

Both bohras and Muslim First believe in the existence of jannat, they both believe in the quran.

If you want to discuss the existence of jannat, you would first need to start discussing the existence of God himself. And I am willing to do that with you on a new thread. However, I know that, that is not what you are interested in.

[Humsafar]

anajmi,

I'm glad you asked for my take on those verses. The first time I quoted them, you were smart enough not to protest that I was pulling these verses out of context. Because you know but refuse to admit that such cruelty and torture cannot be justified no matter what the context. Especially so, when it comes from a God who never tires of gloating over his qualities of mercy and compassion. I urge you to read the verses again, and tell me honestly whether you see any sign of compassion and mercy in them. If you were to read these same words not in the Quran but in some non-religious book you would readily decry them as a work of an evil mind, or of a sadist as Kalim says, or something that CIA planners would write in their torture manual. To argue that such treatment is only reserved for those who reject the faith, is to admit to intolerance - a quality which a merciful God cannot afford to have. Like a mother's love, God's love should be unconditional. Besides, doesn't it strike you as odd that our God should insist on being praised all the time, being prayed to, and thanked for for his bounties, that our purpose on this earth is nothing but to be his slave? If a mother or father were to demand the same kind of devotion, they would be thought of as suffering from some kind of narcisstic paranoia. But we digress...

Coming back to the conext of the verses, you cannot read the Quran without considering the history, social milieu and relgious tradition of its origin. The Quran is a template of its time - the 7th century Arabia - and continues the bombastic and fire-and-brimstone tradition in which the Testaments were written. The terrible tableaux of hellfire, eternal purgatory, boiling water, yokes, chains bitter fruits and pestilence are borrowed ideas form jewish and christian sources. You find them in the Quran too because that's the way religions were preached and God's words were written in those days. Nobody thought of doing it in a more gentle and polite way. To do so would be to go against the literary and theological style of the time.

Apart from the style, much of the content of the Quran is also borrowed. There's nothing new or original in it in terms of philosophy and mythology which was not already known or written in the jewish and christian scriptures, in the Greek, Zohrastrian and Syriaic literature. What is new in the Quran is when it denounces idol worship, condemns infanticide, proposes to break down rigid social structures of rich and poor, advocates social equality and economic justice and calls for women's rights in terms of inheritance etc. As you can see these are practical, social issues that needed to be addressed and Prophet Mohammed had the courage and vision to do so. These were the ideas that were truly revolutionary for its time and threatened to shake up the tribal society and the vested interests that benefitted from it. Unfortunately these ideas came with the extra baggage of biblical myths and narratives, and, as time progressed, with murderous zeal of new Muslims.

Nobody denies the revolutionary aspect of Islam when it started. It was revolutionary because it was responding to the problems of a backward, tribal society of Arabia. It was meant for that specific historical time and that specific society. Islam is not revolutionary anymore. It cannot be. It would be wrong and foolish to expect it to be. It is no longer the force of change it once was, it is now a force regression and obscurantism. It has congealed into a mere religion with a set of calcified rituals and customs that originated in Arabia and which have no cultural resonance or relevance with the rest of the non-Arab Muslim world.

Muslims are largely to be blamed for the state Islam is in today. All they care about is the 5/7 pillars, jihad and producing suicide bombers but have forgotten about its core message of justice and charity. There's too much emphasis on rituals and none on its spirit. Western aggression too has played its part in pushing Muslims deeper into their shells where they dwell on past glories and drive inspiration from orthodoxy. Being a Muslim today has become more of a political project than a religious practice. Other religions are guilty of it too. It's our religious identities that have become our chief defining features leaving aside our humanism and much of the common history, heritage, genes and values we share with one another.

As an aside, Seeker made a very interesting point in one of his posts about how soil affects the beliefs of people. The softer the soil, the kinder the religion. Perhaps there's some truth in it. Viewed from this perspective, one can understand why Islam is so harsh and humourless, so devoid of joy and cheer - as if stamped with dry and arid character of the desert it originated in. The same could be said other semitic religions too. They too originated in a semi-desert topography and likewise pull a long, sour face on humankind.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

I was actually expecting something new. I guess that was just wishful thinking.

Everything else, you've said before and I've disputed before. No point in wasting everybody's time going into it all over again.