Doctrine of Imam Mehdi Vs Imam Tayyeb

[Akhtiar Wahid]

Can some please enlighten me with the differences between these two doctrines. As I have scarce knowledge about it.

[think]

After imam jafer, there have been two divisions. one division believed the eldest son of imam jafer as the next imam and one group believed the younger son as the next imam. There is more to it, but this is the reason. after imam Mohd bin Ismail which is the younger son, the next three imams were in hiding . Then came imam qaim and then Imam mehdi and then imam mustansir, imam mutali and so on till the 21st imam again went into hiding because of a lot of turmoil at that time. i hope this very very brief explanation answers your question. Again there were two sons ,Imam tayeb and Nizar. This is where there is a split between the bohri's and aga khani's. the aga khanis believe nizar ,the eldest son as the next imam and so it carries on till today. The bohri believes imam tayeb went into hiding and was only two years old and was cared for by a women called bilkis. also titled hurat ul malika. . At that time there were many supportes of imam tayeb who were known as dai's who spread the word of the real imam being Tayeb.All this took place in yemen. so some of the dais i think about 13 are in yemen and afterwards the dais came to india and so the progeny of the indian dai's continues till today. The first of the indian dai was a hindu who converted.

[badrijanab]

Dear Think Ji,

I'm sorry to advise, most of the points you wrote are incorrect. I know, if I will ask you to provide source of your writing you will not be able to. Please inquire if you do not know or understand any points of Bohra maslaq and on top of it kindly do not preach what you do not fully know and understand.

Thank you.

[think]

Badri janab; may be I did not mention all the imams or wrote their names in the wrong order. I stand corrected. Please correct me. definitely would like to know how the events of history folded in to bohri and khojas and then shea ishna ashari khojas which i believe is another branch of khojas . I believe this division took place sometime in 1901 after prince sadruddin. Again , I may be wrong.

[think]

do shed some light on the correct and factual historical events that led to khoja and bohra divisions.

[Sceptical]

السلام عليكم

After Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq (AS) a split occured in Shia. Most of shias had chosen to follow Musa Al-Kazim as Imam, while Isamili followed Imam Ismail Al Mubarak (AS) as rightful imam.

Twelver

Ithnashariya believe in 12 imams after Nabi Muhammad (PBUH) - Note : Amirul Mumineen is considered as Imam.

1) Ali (as)
2) Hasan (as)
3) Husain (as)
4) Ali Zayn-al-abidin (as)
5) Muhammad Baqir (as)
6) Ja'far As Sadiq (as),
7) Musa Al-Kazim,
8] Ali ArRida,
9) Muhammad At-Taqi,
10) Ali Al-Hadi,
11) Hasan Al-Askari
and 12) Muhammad Al-Mahdi.

In Ithnashariya beliefs, the 12th imam is in major Occultation since 9th century. They believe that the reappearance of al-Mahdi will bring justice and peace to the world. They also believe that other personalities will follow the reappearance of the Mahdi (like Isa Nabi...)

Ismaili
The ismaili point of view : Imam Ja'far did nass upon his eldest son, Ismail.
1) Hasan (as)
2) Husain (as)
3) Ali Zayn-al-abidin (as)
4) Muhammad Baqir (as)
5) Ja'far As Sadiq (as)
6) Isamail Al-Mubarak (as)
7) Muhammad Al-Maktum (as)
8th, 9th and 10th Imam came into occultation :
8] Abd'Allah Mastur (as)
9) Ahmad Mastur (as)
10) Husain Mastur (as)
Imam Abd'Allah Al-Mahdi ended the occultation and became the first Fatimid Caliph in the 10th century :
11) Abd'Allah Al-Mahdi (as)
12) Muhammad Al-Qaim (as)
13) Ismail Al-Mansur (as)
14) Muyyid Al-Muiz (as)
15) Nizar Al-Aziz (as)
16) Husain Al-Hakim (as)
17) Ali Al-Zahir (as)
18) Maad Al-Mustansir (as)
after Mustansir Imam, the Imamat was disputed between his two sons, Nizar and Mustali (as). An important split occured in Ismaili dawa. Aga Khan IV is the direct heir of Nizar, and 49th Imam of Nizari dawa. Musateli Imam "won this case" and became Caliph
19) Ahmad Al-Mustali (as)
20) Mansur Al-Aamir (as)
21) Tayyib Abu al-Qasim (as)

Imam Al-Aamir was murdered. His young son, Imam Tayyib, came into occultation and the Hujja was conferred to Queen Al-Hurat al Maleka of Yemen. She conferred nuss upon Syedna Zoeb as first Dai-Al- Mutlaq to lead the community in the absence of the Imam.

In Tayyebi Isamili beliefs (ie Bohra), Imam are in occultation (satr) since Imam Tayyib. The Imamate is perpetuated from father to son among the heirs of Tayyib Imam. Tayyebi/Bohra hope that the Imam-uz-zaman (a direct descendant of Imam Tayyib) will end this long occultation (satr) period one day.

Please, feel free to correct me if I have done some mistakes.

[true_bohra]

You are correct in what you qouted.

[Aftaab]

You are correct in what you qouted.

do u have any idea where is qabr of all these imamain(s)?

[true_bohra]

1Imam Hasan- medina
2 Imam Husain- Karbala
3 Imam Ali zainul abedin- medina
4 Imam Mohammed ul Baqir- medina
5 Imam Jaafer us Sadiq- medina
6 Imam Ismail- medina
7 Imam Mohammed- medina
8 Imam Abdullah- fargana
9 Imam Ahmed- Salmiya
10 Imam Husain- Salmiya
11 Imam Mehdi- Asqar Mukarram
12 Imam Qaa'im- al mehdiya
13 Imam Mansur- al mehdiya
14 Imam Moiz- al mehdiya
15 Imam Aziz- qahera
16 Imam Hakim- Not known
17 Imam Zahir- qahera
18 Imam Mustansir- qahera
19 Imam Musta'ali- qahera
20 Imam Aamir- qahera
21 Imam Taiyyeb- Not known

MAY ALLAH'S SALAWAT BE ON ALL ABOVE MENTIONED IMAMS.

[true_bohra]

Aftaab i hope you are satisfied with this answer.

[Aftaab]

Aftaab i hope you are satisfied with this answer.

no I am not

how come so called gaib naa jaankaar dai have no idea where is qabr of Imam Hakim bin amrillah?

he is such an important personality of Islam and bohra maslaq, how come his qabr is unknown, while mere dai taher saifuddin is resting under million dollar maqbara?

[zinger]

True Bohra bhai,. George Carlin once said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

And George Bernard Shaw once said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."

[Aftaab]

True Bohra bhai,. George Carlin once said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

And George Bernard Shaw once said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."

I dont care if u call me idiot or what ever, but just think about it.


any idea why gaib naa jaankar dont even know where is most important Imam(s) qabr?

isnt this more important to find out, then throwing birthday bashes? or building swimming pools and palaces?

now let the world decide who is idiot and piggish

[Aftaab]

True Bohra bhai,. George Carlin once said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

And George Bernard Shaw once said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."

do find a cure for your self

[true_bohra]

@Aftaab:
Every Imam is important for us. You have visited so many shia majlis, do you have any idea about kubur of all these Imams???

[true_bohra]

Shias are still awaiting Imam Mehdi for zuhoor. I am sure you can throw better light on this issue.

[think]

Thank you Badri janab. where is Faragna, Mehdiya, Salmiya and Asqar Mukarram. Modern day names of these cities would help.

[Aftaab]

@Aftaab:
Every Imam is important for us. You have visited so many shia majlis, do you have any idea about kubur of all these Imams???

where is Imam Hakim kabr?

he is not important for bohras?


gaib naa jaankaar doesnt knows it?

[true_bohra]

You fool, I told you every Imam is important for all Mumin. Dont exaggerate the topic when I did not mention Imam Hakim's kabr mubarak.

Yesterday you were saying that you are more knowledgeable in Islam than Syedna that please detail us with Imam Hakim AS achievements.

[Aftaab]

You fool, I told you every Imam is important for all Mumin. Dont exaggerate the topic when I did not mention Imam Hakim's kabr mubarak.

Yesterday you were saying that you are more knowledgeable in Islam than Syedna that please detail us with Imam Hakim AS achievements.

where is qabr of imam hakim bin amrillah?

[Aftaab]

You fool, I told you every Imam is important for all Mumin. Dont exaggerate the topic when I did not mention Imam Hakim's kabr mubarak.

Yesterday you were saying that you are more knowledgeable in Islam than Syedna that please detail us with Imam Hakim AS achievements.

having knowledge and practicing what we know is two different things,


possessing accesses to billion books like dai but not practicing it, is as bad ....

[Bohra spring]

Can someone rationally explain this

The Prophet SAW spend years growing up and maturing , built knowledge and thereafter claimed prophesy, after that spent decades preaching and converting. Hence we revere his life and legacy. same way Jesus SAw and Musa saw, similarly Hazrat Ali all worked their way to recognition.

Now how can we claim that a 2 year old ( a 2 year old toddler who can barely walk and talk, has no biological capacity to make Islamic judgement, which only is achieved by years of study and duty) that we claim had absolute knowledge, did not have to demonstrate character or have to work his mission. Even if he went into seclusion what did he achieve or propagate . Has any Tawil or Sabaq explained under whom he was mentored.

How much of this is real facts vs someone making up a mystery ? The connection between Imam , a Queen and a devoted priest who claimed to be Diai needs to be objectively assessed. Is it a story that bohras have closed their minds and accepted it as a plausible mythology to support their ideology.

It may seem logical and inferences can be connected to statements from the Quran but then one can make up any story and seek authenticity by linking to an unintentional meaning from the Quran.

[zinger]

True Bohra bhai,. George Carlin once said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

And George Bernard Shaw once said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."

do find a cure for your self

Coming from you, it's rich

[zinger]

True Bohra bhai,. George Carlin once said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

And George Bernard Shaw once said "I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig, you get dirty; and besides, the pig likes it."

I dont care if u call me idiot or what ever, but just think about it.


any idea why gaib naa jaankar dont even know where is most important Imam(s) qabr?

isnt this more important to find out, then throwing birthday bashes? or building swimming pools and palaces?

now let the world decide who is idiot and piggish

Strangely enough, Imam Hakim, from being "an important Imam", suddenly, overnight became "the most important Imam"

Pray tell me, how and when and why did this happen?

First you wanted to know where they are all buried. you got your answer, now you want to know why the Qabr Mubarak of 1 imam is missing while the others are all known. Maybe someday, when we will have answer for that you might suddenly come up with another equally inane question, for example, what did they eat for breakfast every day

Pray tell me, who is being an askhole now?

[salim]

Thank you Badri janab. where is Faragna, Mehdiya, Salmiya and Asqar Mukarram. Modern day names of these cities would help.

Mehdiya is in Morroco and Salmiya is in Syria. Majority population of Salmiya are Nizari Ismailis.

[salim]

Badri janab; may be I did not mention all the imams or wrote their names in the wrong order. I stand corrected. Please correct me. definitely would like to know how the events of history folded in to bohri and khojas and then shea ishna ashari khojas which i believe is another branch of khojas . I believe this division took place sometime in 1901 after prince sadruddin. Again , I may be wrong.

I am not very well versed in this as this was a small partition. The partition between Ismaili Khoja and Itnasary khoja took place around 1800 AD. When a group of ismailis went to Iran, they meet a Ithnasary dais, ithnasary dias were able to convince them that one of the prominent pir of ismailis Pir Sadarudin who traveled India in 1300+ AD was not ismaili but shia ithnasary. The person who got convinced was super rich, he came back to india and started spreading ithnasary religion mainly targeting ismailis. Shia Ithnasary now nomore target ismailis. They mostly target Sunnis and hindus. Last I heard that they did good progress. They have grown anywhere 100 thousand (as per their claim). They still follow many old khoja traditions. They have also adopted shia ithnasary traditions.

[salim]

Definitely would like to know how the events of history folded in to bohri and khojas and then shea ishna ashari khojas which i believe is another branch of khojas . I believe this division took place sometime in 1901 after prince sadruddin. Again , I may be wrong.

In 1094 the Ismaili community became divided over who would become the 19th imam; the two branches resulted from this division, each of which developed its own religious and literary traditions. Mustali Ismailis and Nizari ismailis. Most of Nizari ismailis flurished in Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, China, India, Central Asia and russia. Where are Mustali ismailis flurished in egypt, yaman and India.

Latter Tayyibi Bohra, a branch of the Ismailis which split off from the rest of the Musta‘li Isma‘ilis soon after the death in 524 AH / 1130 CE of the Fatimid caliph al-Amir recognised as the twentieth imam of the Mustali Ismailis. The official Mustali dawa organisation in Cairo recognised al-Amir cousin and successor on the Fatimid throne, al-Hafiz, and the later Fatimids as the rightful imams. However, some Musta‘li groups in Egypt and Syria as well as the majority in Yemen acknowledged the rights of al-Amir’s infant son al-Tayyib to the imamate, rejecting the claims of al-Hafiz and the Musta‘li Hafizi da‘wa. These Mustali Ismailis were initially known as al-Amiriyya, but later, after the establishment of the independent Tayyibi da‘wa in Yemen, became designated as al-Tayyibiyya.