Imams - Bohras Vs. 12ers (Shias)

[khan19922001]

Dear Brothers

Can anyone provide me with information on where the differences between the Shia and Bohri's arise i.e from which Imam.

Regards

[porus]

I agree with Humsafar that the issue of the lineage of the Imam, or for that matter the Dai, is moot as their followers will accept them to be the only true Imam or Dai.

For those of intellectual bent and seekers, however, past is prologue. And the questions about lineage are inherently interesting because they form the basis of both theology and theocracy for the Shia.

Twelvers and Bohras accept the sequence upto Imam Jafar al-Sadiq.

Bohras follow his elder son Ismail and the twelvers follow the younger son Musa.

As to how the split came about is the stuff of legendary history and no truth has been established.

In one legend, Ismail was proclaimed Imam but died before his father. Musa was then nominated. 'Ismailis' objected that Imam cannot be falsified and several explanations abound.

1. Ismail did not die but was claimed to be dead to save him from enemies.
2. Ismail had a twin brother who really died.
3. Ismail had already nominated his son Muhammad, while Ismail was an Imam-in-waiting.

The two branches of the Shia then developed distinctive theologies even though the basis of Imamat being in Ahl Bayt is common.

[khan19922001]

This creates confusion. Which sect is therefore the true torch bearer of Islam.

I personally think if Imamat was such a core and fundamental issue, there would be Sura's after sura's in the Holy Quran and not some vague references.

[Dahariya]

Well! think yourself as to why such an important aspect has not been mentioned in the book whereas other matters have been discussed in minutest details.

Think?

Secondly, one point to be noted here is that islam if the final ultimate religion, there will be no more messengers, the holy quraan makes it quite clear. Any concept which nullifies the universalism of islam cannot be islamic.
Whether this system of IMAMISM is true or false that has to be seen.
Look at the history what does it tell you. There is nothing other then blood shed btw power hungry people who claim to be the torch bearers of islam.(Study and see for yourself)

[serendipity]

Re - Dahariya: "Look at the history what does it tell you. There is nothing other then blood shed btw power hungry people who claim to be the torch bearers of islam. (Study and see for yourself)."

Historically though, the total amount of blood shed by BOTH branches of Shia Imams is INFINITESIMAL compared to all of the coups, palace revolutions, harem intrigues, bloody genocides, ETC. that were collectively committed by the Umayyad, Abbasid, and Ottoman Sunni caliphs. (As you say, study and see for yourself.)

[Momin]

serendipity,

"(As you say, study and see for yourself.)".

I like that...haha LOL

-Momin

[khan19922001]

Dear Br. Seredipity

So which sect of the Imamite do you beleive is more authentic. The Bohri's, the 12ers, the Agha Khani's etc.

Each one of them though stem from the same the background are now totally different sects.

Regards

[ado sayed]

don't believe in any of these. all of these are made to make money or destroy islam- probably by enemies of islam. believe in autentic islam.

[serendipity]

Dear khan19922001

I believe the priority today is for all shiah to seek for Imam's Guidance in their OWN lives rather than "quibble" over his exact identity (since that is ultimately up to ALLAH anyhow). This also serves to keep us HUMBLE, rather than arrogantly presuming on others' quest to know him!

Although some folks on this board "make fun" of the Dai for receiving guidance in his dreams from the Imam, FACT of the matter is this is one of SEVERAL viable mediums available to the sincere believer for receiving direction in his or her life; and may logically be the RESULT of your wasilah and a life dedicated to prayer! (It just so happens that the Twelvers have traditionally been MORE RESPECTFUL of this notion, and on their bulletin boards it's refreshing to see how they honestly HELP EACH OTHER with duas for experiencing Imam's guidance. )

That having been said, I will admit my OWN experience of Imam az zaman's existence has clearly been in terms of the "Tayyibi" tradition. But I don't buy that he's kept in some "box" at the top of the bohra hierarchy, with no ability to touch us directly. I could offer specifics of what I have come to understand through my experience, but I don't know what purpose that would constructively serve here.

[Momin]

Dear Khanwalla,

To each their own.

Regards,

-Momin

>>>>
khan19922001
Regular
Member # 448

posted 12-26-2004 01:32 AM
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Dear Br. Seredipity

So which sect of the Imamite do you beleive is more authentic. The Bohri's, the 12ers, the Agha Khani's etc.

Each one of them though stem from the same the background are now totally different sects.

Regards
<<<<<

[Alexp78]

Check this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismailis

we are are a sub-sub branch of original shias.

We broke away from the Twelvers (Ithna Asharis) after the sixth Imam (Jaafar as-Saadiq) and became the Ismailis, eventually establishing the Fatimid (descendants of Fatima) dynasty in Egypt with regulars da'is in Yemen
After that we again split up into the Mustaalid Ismailis (daudi bohras) and the Nizari Ismailis (Aga Khani's).

also chk this link.
http://i-cias.com/e.o/fatimids.htm

[khan19922001]

Br. Serendipity

I gather you blieve the Bohri line to be correct and are therefore following it.

Don't you think that it would have been more logical that Imamate was dicussed in considerable detail in the Holy Quran, considering its importance.

I cannot understand why this very belief was left so vague, especially since it is so fundamental.

Regards

[gurru]

First of all, I am not an authority on this topic or subject. I am not the follower of any of those faiths but my study on religion allows me to express my opinion on this topic. At present time Ithna Ashari or the (Little Jamat) as they call in the time of Sultan Mohammad Shah Aga khan are limted to their practice of Shiaism as mentioned by their Ulemas and doing their regular Rituals like Namaz and others, but their main stream is looks like the celebrating the deaths or Shahadat's of Progny of Hazrat Ali. Like Shahdat's and Matam's for the Imams who were killed. Ithna Sharis are waiting for the Imam Mehdi to show is Mazhar Again before the day of Justice. Half of my family is Ithna Asharis.

I lived most of my life with Bohras. I guess Syedna has defined Bohras Path of practice and developed a system to run the community. I remember from my childhood days the excitement of my neighbours when Syedna was in town or come to deliver the Dawa in Jamat Khana or Mosque. The use to spend days and nights around sydena or the place where Sayedna suppose to come. Bohra's also celebrates Shahadat of Imam's more then any other celebrations. Syedna or Dai's speaks about religion in public and private gathering.

Aga Khani's or Ismailis are changing their behaviour and practices according to the time. In the time of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and early times of Imam Shah Karim Al Hussaini Aga Khan, Ismilism was only limited to India, Pakistan, East Africa, Syria and some other parts of the world. Central Asia was not discovered at that time. Imam's whole and sole vision was the development of those Jamat's and Murid's. After the collapse of Soviet Union, New era of Ismilism has begun. Aga Khan forme a constitution on which he is the Singular Authority to ammend. Ismaili Faith is based on Tawheed, Nabuwah and Imama. Althoguh it is not followed as it should be followed. Most of the Ismaili practises and vision is around the Imama, no doubt Ismaili use the Allah and Prophet Muhammad's Names in their Rituals but not abiding the rules of Tawheed.

Ismailies who only observe the Shadat of Hazrat Ali & Imam Hussain but don't do any Matam. Even Ismaili do not celebrate the Deaths and births of their previous Imams. Only Hazar Imam's Clebrations are vital in their practice.

Althoug Ismilies follow the common Imam worldwide, but their practices are according to the country they are living. The Ismaili Practrise is called Tariqah and Ismailies of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh follwos a different Tariqah then Ismailies of USA and Canada and Syria is pracitsing different then Central Asia. Like Central Asians do not recite the Ginan's(Transformation of Quran in Poetry) and they only recit Qasidas (Praising of HAdrat Ali).

During this time of Centiry the current Imam is emphasising on Pluralism, brotherhood, building the bridiges between Umah and help the less fortunate, Providing social assistance, Education support and economic development. Imam's Faramin's are not religious any more, He does not visit jamat for deedar very often.

I guess I wrote enough. Members can write or ammend me if or may be I am wrong anywhere.

Otherwise Allah knows better then anybody.

[Africawala]

Dear Gurru,

You have come to this site to condemn Ismailis and Aga Khanis. You tried one thread on this site and it failed because nobody seemed to be interested in it.

People on this site are smart, intelligent, educated and open minded. They can smell a rat from miles. They know you come from Most Merciful site - Akberally Mehrally. Please do not insult their intelligence with your garbage.

You sound like an Ex-ismaili or from a sect that hates the Ismailis and to this day teaches their children that Ismaili women lay their hair down and Aga Khan walks on the hair!!! What ignoramuses believe this and give birth to ignoramuses who burn at the name of Aga Khan like the devil in Hell Hole.

It is obvious from your previous thread and your participation on this thread that you want to generate hatred against the Ismailis. Well go on brothers have your field day. Ismailis do not care what you say because they have better things to do, i.e. help their Most Beloved Imam to take care of humanity. The only people who hurt and burn are the likes of you, so go on, burn.

In days to come you will see more publicity and more humanitarian projects. You can't stop this, so go on babbling and waste your precious times.

[gurru]

Africawala, I won't show here any anger or frustration from your earlier e-mail, It is an old time saying that "Your act and your talk represents where you are from" I have no problem with your comments and if you noticed, I mentioned that Allah knows better. As far as that Mr. Meharally concerns Most Merciful, I read his sites and I don't believe that he is doing right thing. I was the first person who wrote him that your are not preaching anything but critcizm. In my earlier post I did not critcize Aga Khan, I provide the board with my view on what is the difference in these three sects. For your information I am neither ex or not now Ismaili. You are talking like you were Indian first and then you became Bana and now you are North American. I am sorry to say that think on what you are doing. My belief even not Sunni or Shia, I believe in one creator, Quran is the Final Book and Prophet Muhammad (SAS) was the last messanger. Allahmdulilah and I am proud of that. You are talking about future projects, I am talking about Future country of Agakhan, which he will govern. Just match the lines on Atlas and see where that country will be and where the projects are. I have not objection with his project, they all are humanitarian, but my only concern is your bubling, control your emotions. Allah is witness, I have not guts to hurt anybody. Why should I an ordinary jealous with Aga Khan. This is a simple routine Board. Just think that way and keep your frustration aside to use some where else. May Allah show you a right path, and Sirat AL mustaqim which Your Imam mentions in his every Irshad.

:p

[gurru]

Africawala, I won't show here any anger or frustration from your earlier e-mail, It is an old time saying that "Your act and your talk represents where you are from" I have no problem with your comments and if you noticed, I mentioned that Allah knows better. As far as that Mr. Meharally concerns Most Merciful, I read his sites and I don't believe that he is doing right thing. I was the first person who wrote him that your are not preaching anything but critcizm. In my earlier post I did not critcize Aga Khan, I provide the board with my view on what is the difference in these three sects. For your information I am neither ex or not now Ismaili. You are talking like you were Indian first and then you became Bana and now you are North American. I am sorry to say that think on what you are doing. My belief even not Sunni or Shia, I believe in one creator, Quran is the Final Book and Prophet Muhammad (SAS) was the last messanger. Allahmdulilah and I am proud of that. You are talking about future projects, I am talking about Future country of Agakhan, which he will govern. Just match the lines on Atlas and see where that country will be and where the projects are. I have not objection with his project, they all are humanitarian, but my only concern is your bubling, control your emotions. Allah is witness, I have not guts to hurt anybody. Why should I an ordinary jealous with Aga Khan. This is a simple routine Board. Just think that way and keep your frustration aside to use some where else. May Allah show you a right path, and Sirat AL mustaqim which Your Imam mentions in his every Irshad.

:p

[Africawala]

Dear Gurru,

Thanks. You have toned down your comments from the earlier posts on another thread. You did not respond to my earlier posts because you did not have answers and it had got nothing to do with my emotions. You knew you had no answers. I challenge you to answer them.

My emotions are not out of control. You are out of control. You tried a new thread with hatred about the Aga Khan and got no help. Just go back and read what you said about him before you accuse me about my emotions. Then you decided to participate in another thread, but toned down your hatred. You wrote one para on Ithanasheris, one para on the Bohoras and 4 long paras on Aga Khanis. That tells any intelligent person what your Agenda is. You say you have read A.Mehrally, of course you have because you talk like him about the Ismaili constitution, etc. and most of your knowledge about Ismailism, it seems comes from him or that other sect that I mentioned earlier. Or contrary to what you state, you were an Ismaili but converted to Mehralism. Of course A. Merharally is a vermin, whom not only the Shias but even the Sunnis despise.

Al-Hamdullillah and Shukranas of Allah S.W.T. Allah has showed me the right path and I am very happy.

I hope you are happy in your own path.

I believe you can achieve salvation as long as your are not "fitnati", and do good deeds.

It is ironical that Akbarally Mehrally's and your biggest fear is "what country the Aga Khan will rule". A.M. is desperate and has repeatedly pleaded with "The Ummah" to do something before people convert to Ismailism because of all the projects the Aga Khan has in the world. You expressed the same concern on this site today. In other words, the Aga Khan should not help the Ummah or Human beings. May be you all should start doing what the Aga Khan is doing with the help of all the rich Islamic countries and then may be Aga Khan will not need to help and he will stay home. Show me one capable person or government who is capable of doing what Aga Khan does and will do what he is doing.

Fear is the biggest enemy of man. Allah despises people who have fear. Have no fear. Aga Khan is not here to rule the world, he is here to help the humanity. Now go and sleep peacefully.

Before I converted to Ismailism, most of my friends were of a sect that I prefer not to name here. They told me that Bohoras were so lucky that their women were educated and dressed well and accompanied their husbands to social events, etc. He complained that their women were always observing the death of this or that Imam and his children, or they were observing the birthday of this or that Imam and their children, etc. He said that their women were never "available" because their religious calendar occupied them with these rituals so "they went out". You understand what I am saying?

Ismailis celebrate the Birthday of the Prophet, Mowla Ali and the present Imam. When the present Imam goes, neither his death nor his birthday will be celebrated. If they were to celebrate the birthdays of all the Imams, their children, and their deaths, they will be like the other sect that I mentioned. They will have no time to go to school even.

Salaams brother.

[Dahariya]

Serentipidity:
I was not referring to the blood shed with reference to sunnism or for that matter shiaism, that is not the issue I was referring to the bloodshed by power hungry people in the history of islam in general.

[ithna]

Dear Br Khan:
Your question on how he split happened between Ithna Shia and Ismailis.

I cannot really Sit here and Email you a detailed response. I am an EX bohra and have started a group called the Bohri Ithna Shia.
It is upong every individual to go with theoir TAQWA and feed their soul with the right nourishemnst or else it will be malnourished and eventually no noor left. I don't believe in Progressive Bohras, since one has to recognize his or her imam before death and follow someone at the present time and if the reformist bohras
does not believe in the Ismail Bohra leader Mohammed Burhanuddin so where are they heading?
At least the Shia follow someone, either Ayatolla Sistani or someone others.

About information, I suggest you start with the book on Ismailis by Daftary. aftyer you have read that, I will give you other names and it is incumbent upon you to know who you are, study Fatimids and its history and where the so called Imamas of fatimids took Shiism.
Imamas are masoom (inoceent and sinles), if you really believe that the Fatimids Imams were masums that that is your destiny. A lot of historians have written on Fatimids, you can visit Institutes of History if you really care about who you are and where you are heading.

Do not confuse Culture Shiism practices with true Shissm. Keep that separate.
keep in touch with me and we can chat further.
Last thing. By me forming Bohri Ithna Shia, it identifies culturally who we are.
Bohri has nothing to do with Sayedna followers. After all how can he be a sayedna. Sayed is from the proginy of the Prophet SAW. Bohris were converted. So I call thegroup Bohri ( that is whete our great grand fathers were Vepari people and now we follow the twelve Imams thus Bohri ithna shias. Like the Khoja ithna shia distinguish themselves from ithna shias

Anyway we can chat privately, but please start with the book I mentioned and it will open the door. Follow your soul and that taqwa will follow.
You will be a different person. That I promise.
By the way one other book you can read is called Than I was guided andit has two parts, but start with book 1
Your brother in Islam
Ithna

[serendipity]

Ithna,

Although you have not addressed me, I am curious about your remarks, regarding: "It is upon every individual to go with their TAQWA and feed their soul with the right nourishment or else it will be malnourished and eventually no noor left."

I am in complete agreement with this.

Re: "I don't believe in Progressive Bohras, since one has to recognize his or her imam before death and follow someone at the present time and if the reformist bohras does not believe in the Ismail Bohra leader Mohammed Burhanuddin so where are they heading? At least the Shia follow someone, either Ayatolla Sistani or someone others."

I ACCEPT the part about needing to recognize our Imam before death. But why do you fall back on the same old notion that we're completely isolated from him and can't experience his Guidance for ourselves? It's OK to "follow someone" so long as this isn't the TYPICAL excuse not to make an effort in your OWN prayer life.

My address: safina@myownemail.com

[Africawala]

Dear Ithna,

You say:

... since one has to recognize his or her imam before death..

How does one recognize imam before death if he is in occultation? What happens if one does not recognize imam before death? Have you recognised the imam? If you have can you please tell us where he is?

" and follow someone at the present time"

I do not understand this. If we recognise the Imam in our life time why do we have to follow someone at the present time??

"and if the reformist bohras
does not believe in the Ismail Bohra leader Mohammed Burhanuddin so where are they heading?

"At least the Shia follow someone, either Ayatolla Sistani or someone others."

When you say "the Shia follow someone", are you referring to the Shia Ithnasheri, or other Shia sects which are numerous.

I do not understand this. Does following others, absolves you of the need to follow and recognise the Imam, or in addition to recognising the Imam Shia follow someone "either Ayatolla or someone others". It leads me to believe that all Shias do not follow one person but many??? How confusing. Please help!!!

I have read Daftary's book and although he is a Shia Ithnasheri, he has praised the Fatimid Imams not only in the Book that you mention but many other books. He has presented history but I would not say he is an authority on Fatimi Imams. There are some inconsistencies in his books. The true history and doctrines of Fatimi Imams were destroyed by the Ayyubids after they conquered Egypt.(except for some which were secured by the Yemeni Dais) What then surfaced and was documented as history was their propoganda against the Fatimi Imams.

As regards the book "Than I was guided and it has two parts, but start with book 1" - I have read parts of this book. The man was a Sunni Sufi from Northern part of Africa, who converted to Shia Islam after learning that Ali was the rightful owner of the Caliphate and that Sunnis wrongfully accused Shias of worshipping Ali, and spread a lot of lies about Shia beliefs in Imam Ali. He also claimed and documented from Sunni sources the appointment of Ali at Ghadir E Khoum, the famous incidence of Thursday regarding Umar, etc. etc.

We all know this so what is new? Except of course he accepted Shia Ithanasheri version as he only met them and debated with them, etc.

Please send me the link that you have started. I had like to learn more about you.

[serendipity]

Africawala asks: "How does one recognize imam before death if he is in occultation? What happens if one does not recognize imam before death? Have you recognised the imam? If you have can you please tell us where he is?"

Let's put the horse before the cart. You KNOW whether or not you have received guidance (if you've consistently PRAYED for this with the wasilah of Imam az'Zaman). THAT'S YOUR
RECOGNITION, no other is needed. If you think it's necessary for you to know "where" Imam is, ask the right "Person".

Re: "If we recognise the Imam in our life time why do we have to follow someone at the present time?...I do not understand this. Does following others, absolve you of the need to follow and recognise the Imam, or in addition to recognising the Imam, must you follow Ayatolla or some others."

ITHNA, I'll say to you again. Following others (no matter how good they may be as teachers or examples) NEVER takes the place of recognizing the Imam. And no one ELSE can do this FOR you, but all Shia have the same access through prayer!

[Momin]

Ithna,

So you are now a Shia Bohra Ithna`asheri? How many of you are part of this clan?

[khan19922001]

Dear Ithna

I have no interest in becoming a Ithna Shri or Bori Ithna Shri (BIS). I am not at all convinced with the Imamaate logic. I have opted for the Ahle sunnah appraoch, which is simple to understand and practice.

[Africawala]

Dear Serendepity,

You say, :
Let's put the horse before the cart. You KNOW whether or not you have received guidance (if you've consistently PRAYED for this with the wasilah of Imam az'Zaman). THAT'S YOUR
RECOGNITION, no other is needed.

Hazarat Tayeb S.A.W. went into seclusion. Now when you pray for guidance through the Wasilah of the Imam az"Zaman (I believe it translates into the Imam of the Time), do you invoke Imam Tayeb S.A.W. or the Imam of his line in seclusion, who, according to the Bohora belief can be anybody. Some say the Dai knows the Imam and some say he does not know.

Not everybody can be gifted as you. You say you have experienced guidance through prayer. This leads me to believe that you "know" the rightful Imam.

Bohoras believe that before Imam Tayeb S.A.W. went into seclusion he advised his people to follow his representatives who were the Hujjas, (but later the Bohoras followed Dais who are lower than the Hujjas). Does that mean that those who do not follow the Dai, who is supposedly in contact with the Imam of the Time, have gone against the faramin of Imam Tayeb S.A.W.?

As a former bohora, the Shia belief that Allah S.W.T. had declared that after Prophet Mohammed S.A.W. there would be no more Prophets and that Imams would be on earth to guide the Believers, always bothered me because I believed that the prophet would have otherwise stated that when Imams go into seclusion, you would be guided by hidden Imam through prayers or by his representatives. The Prophet also said in ahadith that anybody who dies without recognising the Imam of the Time will have died the death of a Jahaliya.

Can you please shed some light on this.

If you think it's necessary for you to know "where" Imam is, ask the right "Person".

Who is the right person?

I have a friend who can do whatever he wants (well almost)and knows what is going to happen, but he does not claim to be guided. He says that he has the sixth sense. I always feel that he has some spiritual power but he does not think so. In fact, he never ever prays, but is very good, kind and ethical.

Do you think he is being guided?

Thanks and Salaams

[serendipity]

Dear Africawala,

I do respect your sincerity. Can you please write me at safina@myownemail.com so we can share with each other what we need to. Thanks

[porus]

I have heard Sayedna Muhammad Burhanuddin say the following: (it is almost a verbatim translation)

"People say that the Imam is in purdah. I say that he (the Imam) is in my heart. Imam will not physically manifest himself. His glory is pereceived in the person of Dai-uz-Zamaan."

It is clear from the above that the Dai now wants his followers to abandon the idea of a 'Tayyibi' Imam ever re-appearing.

It was always a bit of a stretch to think he would re-appear after an absence of over a millenium. If you guys after a guidance to live your life with a 'profound' purpose, then there are any number of variations on a theme which demands a belief that some God has given you a purpose and your task is to find it.

A sure sign of having found a purpose is that you will experience intense emotion, primarily of joy, in whatever you undertake. Falling and kissing feet of the Dai and Imam is certainly not it. And any resentment you feel in participating in any organization means you are drifting further away from your 'purpose'.

So my brothers, cut the crap like a belief that anyone knows waht your purpose is. There are no experts in this and no one to go to for guidance. It is within. Be still and you will find it. Beating your breasts or praying through prophets and imam or dai won't get you there either.

Bohraism and similar cults are there to glorify their leader and his family, which is against the teachings of Quran and other scriptures. They command you to glorify almighty God, and none other. And, that too, you should avoid, if you think you are doing it by ritually bowing to a shrine in Makka. When one abides in Lord, then, as Rumi says, what use is muezzin's call?

[Dahariya]

Dear Ithna

I have no interest in becoming a Ithna Shri or Bori Ithna Shri (BIS). I am not at all convinced with the Imamaate logic. I have opted for the Ahle sunnah appraoch, which is simple to understand and practice.

Dear Khan, You are on the rigth track. Bravo!

[Humsafar]

Porus, I couldn't agree more.

[marabu]

i have been a lurker on this site for many years but have to say that what porus has said is very appropriate for most of us who come to this site and never participate in any dialogue.To reach God is within you and you never need anyone to intrecede on your behalf