The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#31

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 6:02 pm

Fiction writers normally do no not have standing armies to make people read their books.
Neither did the prophet. His army was only the people who believed in his book to be the truth.
But when it comes to facts, people have accepted truths of physics generation after generation.
No author of physics has claimed it to be fiction and no reader of physics has claimed it to be fiction. Hopefully you understand the difference. A writer of physics is not actually writing fiction and trying to convince his readers of the truth of his fiction. He, according to himself, is writing fact. According to you however, the prophet was writing fiction (a figment of his imagination) and at the same time convincing people of it's truth. The prophet, according to you, was a most convincing conman.
Let's accept that Allah is the author of the Quran, now would He, given all his power, glory and infinite capacity, cheapen Himself by challenging mortals to do what He can do? I don't think so.
And why don't you? Where did you get this idea of God from? Which book did you read? Isn't this God a figment of your imagination?

Why would that cheapen him? Isn't a challenge actually supposed to prove your superiority? And isn't a challenge normally issued to those that do not believe in your superiority? Do you wish that God should just punish you without giving you a chance to find out the truth? He is doing this not for himself but for you. He doesn't want you to suffer even though you seem to be bent on it.

As far as numbers are concerned, no one follows their religious books like the muslims follow the quran. You said so yourself. You won't find a single person of any other religion who memorises their entire religious book. You will find 11 year old muslim children who have memorised the entire quran.

If you compare the effect of the quran on it's believers against the effect of any other religious book on it's believers, you will find a huge difference. That is the criterion.
He did convince hundreds of people (I'm guessing) during his lifetime. After his death though, the spread of Islam of out of his hands. It came in the wake of Islamic imperialism which it seems he neither intended nor predicted.
Neither intended nor predicted is simply your conclusion and not the truth. The message of the quran had to be spread. Even during the time of the prophet, he sent letters of invitation to Islam to all the leaders in the surrounding countries. So the spread was intended and it has been predicted in the quran.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#32

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 6:07 pm

Just as you are sure it is, I am sure it is not. You don't have any proof do you? It's just your faith.
I hate to say this, but the burden of proof is on the person who make the claim. The athorship of the quran is not a natural fact, like gravity. If you claim that it is the word of god, then you should be sure of what you are talking about.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#33

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 6:13 pm

Unfortunately for you, you won't be getting any proof from me. There is no burden on me. I don't want to say it this way but there is no really other way to put it - Believe in it or go to hell.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#34

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 6:17 pm

By the way, I am sure of what I am talking about. I have seen the proof and presented it over here many times. It was enough for me to believe. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough for you to believe.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#35

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 6:20 pm

Isn't a challenge actually supposed to prove your superiority?
If my god felt the need to prove His superiority, I'd find another god. Honestly.
As far as numbers are concerned, no one follows their religious books like the muslims follow the quran.....
This all self-contragulatory fakery. All these tall claims do not mean a thing. At one time the whole of Germanay supported and believed in Hitler it doesn't mean he was right or superior or true.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#36

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 6:22 pm

Believe in it or go to hell.
:)

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#37

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 6:35 pm

If my god felt the need to prove His superiority, I'd find another god. Honestly.
Let's see if you can find any similarity with these statements

If my god felt the need to send a messenger, I'd find another god. Honestly.
If my god felt the need to send a message, I'd find another god. Honestly.
If my god felt the need to ban idol worship, I'd find another god. Honestly.
If my god felt the need to have people pray to him, I'd find another god. Honestly.
If my god felt the need to have people fast, I'd find another god. Honestly.

I can go on and on and on. You see what you are doing over here? You are simply trying to find an excuse to not believe in him. Belief in God is not free. It comes with a price which you are unwilling to pay.
This all self-contragulatory fakery. All these tall claims do not mean a thing. At one time the whole of Germanay supported and believed in Hitler it doesn't mean he was right or superior or true.
And do you know how long that lasted? 11 years. Besides if the numbers that I gave you about the quran had actually proven to you the truth of the quran, you'd have been a believer. They are just numbers and personal conclusions. Even if only one person believed in the quran it still would've remained the truth. Allah says in the quran, if all of you believe nothing changes and if none of you believe nothing changes. It's your gain and loss, not Allah's.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#38

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 6:47 pm

Belief in God is not free. It comes with a price which you are unwilling to pay.
Now, like an ordinary merchant, God too puts a price tag. One more reason to look for another god. Honestly. :) Just curious, what's the price?
Allah says in the quran, if all of you believe nothing changes and if none of you believe nothing changes. It's your gain and loss, not Allah's.
If nothing changes either way, then why bother? However, I cannot but agree with Allah about His supreme indifference.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#39

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 6:59 pm

... besides God is too mighty, too powerful, too other-worldly to care whether some pipsqueaks like anajmis or humsafars believe in Him or His word. I like His indifference. It suits Him.

jamanpasand
Posts: 468
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#40

Unread post by jamanpasand » Thu May 17, 2007 6:59 pm

This is a sheer waste of time. There are thousands of scholarly articles on this subject on the web. It your have idle time go and read those pages.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#41

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu May 17, 2007 7:09 pm

.

I thought this will be non controversial subject on this forum.

.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#42

Unread post by Humsafar » Thu May 17, 2007 7:30 pm

You're right jp. Muslims must start reading stuff other than the scriptures. I hate to be in a tit-for-tat conversation lilke this, and try to avoid it as far as possible. But sometimes, I guess, it cannot be helped. Muslims are too caught up in the absolutist character of the quran, and generally ignore its message of justice, charity and moral uprightness.

My apologies if I've been a nuisance.

MF,
What made you think it would be without controversy? The moment anyone starts imposing personal beliefs as absolute truth they are courting controversy.

Muslim First
Posts: 6893
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#43

Unread post by Muslim First » Thu May 17, 2007 7:31 pm

.
DO YOU THINK I SHOULD CONTINUE TO POST MORE OR IT IS WASTE OF TIME?

.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#44

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 9:01 pm

Humsafar,

Look at your posts and then tell me whose caught up with bullshit. You are right, your posts are a big nuisance because you don't even try to understand what I am posting and regurgitate the same crap over and over again.
Muslims are too caught up in the absolutist character of the quran, and generally ignore its message of justice, charity and moral uprightness.
Any hollywood movie that you pick has a message of justice, charity and moral uprightness. What a muslim considers the quran to be is something more which people like you do not understand.

And no one over here is imposing their personal beliefs on anyone else. Stop crying like a baby. Have I ever complained of you imposing your personal beliefs on me?
Now, like an ordinary merchant, God too puts a price tag. One more reason to look for another god. Honestly. Just curious, what's the price?
The price is salah 5 times a day, Roza one full month, hajj, zakat. Too high a price for you to pay.
If nothing changes either way, then why bother? However, I cannot but agree with Allah about His supreme indifference.
If you had read the complete sentence you would've found the answer in it. It is your own gain and loss and Allah's. You are the one going to end up in hell.
... besides God is too mighty, too powerful, too other-worldly to care whether some pipsqueaks like anajmis or humsafars believe in Him or His word. I like His indifference. It suits Him.
The God that you are talking about is simply a figment of your imagination. Allah isn't indifferent towards his creation even if his creation (you) is indifferent towards him. It is clear that people like you, if they don't change, actually deserve the punishment they are going to get.

Br. Muslim First,

Please keep posting. I won't say that I won't post anymore. If I see an idiotic post, I will reply.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#45

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 9:05 pm

You're right jp. Muslims must start reading stuff other than the scriptures.
Oh I read a lot of stuff. If I hadn't, I wouldn't be here sticking it up to scientists and Arabic scholars.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#46

Unread post by porus » Thu May 17, 2007 9:25 pm

MF,

You should keep posting. anajmi will read your references and both of you can reinforce each other's bigotry.

If you are posting for Bohras, I think that it is a waste of time.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#47

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 9:30 pm

porus,

My bigotry is a figment of your imagination.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#48

Unread post by anajmi » Thu May 17, 2007 9:34 pm

According to the dictionary definition of bigotry, it is "irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race or religion". Looks like you, Humsafar and some others qualify as bigots.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#49

Unread post by porus » Thu May 17, 2007 10:22 pm


anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#50

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 18, 2007 12:13 am

Do you think if I were to call someone like you - pigot - that a few centuries from now it will become a part of the language and we can use it as a derogatory term for those who argue with believers?

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#51

Unread post by porus » Fri May 18, 2007 1:09 pm

The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

CHAPTER V

The FEAST

Qur'an 5:53-54

Punishments for the likes of porus.

Always thankful for small mercies, I am glad this board offers anonimity. I will try avoiding being in the physical clutches of MF and anajmi. :)

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#52

Unread post by porus » Fri May 18, 2007 1:13 pm

Correction
Originally posted by porus:
The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

CHAPTER V

The FEAST

Qur'an 5:33-34

Punishments for the likes of porus.

Always thankful for small mercies, I am glad this board offers anonimity. I will try avoiding being in the physical clutches of MF and anajmi. :)

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#53

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 18, 2007 1:20 pm

Don't worry my friend. I will do no such thing to you. I don't have the power or the will to harm any human. But remember, you are anonymous only on this board and you might fool the bohras by attending the jamaats but Allah knows and sees everything you do.

I only wish you feared Allah more than you fear MF and anajmi.

porus
Posts: 3594
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#54

Unread post by porus » Fri May 18, 2007 2:07 pm

The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

CHAPTER II

The COW

Qur'an 2:23-24

God challenges anyone to bring a sura like The COW. Immediately, God says you cannot do it.


You cannot do it. Do not even think of trying it. And fear the fire of which porus is fuel.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#55

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri May 18, 2007 2:54 pm

Here I go again, with apologies to jp and others. Please do not read this if you think it's a waste of time.

anajmi
Look at your posts and then tell me whose caught up with bullshit. You are right, your posts are a big nuisance because you don't even try to understand what I am posting and regurgitate the same crap over and over again.
Your language shows, brother, that you are at the end of your tether... may god help you.
If labeling my thoughts as crap gives you satisfaction, then that's fine by me. Who am I to deny you your small pleasures?

Your justification for whatever you claim (God, heaven, hell, satan, “the price” of god’s favours etc.) begins and ends at one point: the Quran. And all your arguments are stuck there in an infinite loop. What I (and porus and others) have been trying to tell you is that the Quran cannot be the justification for itself. To accept something just because somebody important has said it, is called “proof of authority” in philosophy, and if that proof is good enough for you that is fine. Nobody should have a problem with that. The problem begins when you claim that that truth (in your case, Islam) is the only absolute, universal timeless Truth there is. This is dangerous dogma. And the people who passionately believe in it are dangerous people. You personally may not harm any human being, but there are others of your ilk who do. You too would, but you’re sufficiently socialized, thank god, to ignore the more pernicious edicts of your religion (we have gone over this before, so no need to regurgitate :) .

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#56

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri May 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Any hollywood movie that you pick has a message of justice, charity and moral uprightness. What a muslim considers the quran to be is something more which people like you do not understand.
Hollywood talks about these things only as stroies. But justice and charity are central to Islam - everything else pales into insignificance.

... a muslim considers the quran to be is something more

I'm curious to know.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#57

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 18, 2007 4:50 pm

Humsafar,

Talking to you is a waste of time, but I have some time to waste so hear goes.

First central to Islam is not justice or charity but Tawhid. Not sure if you know what that means. Everything else you post about Islam simply demonstrates your lack of understanding.

My arguments are stuck in an infinite loop because you keep regurgitating the same crap over and over again. Whew! that really makes me feel happy.

And yes, Islam is the only universal and timeless truth. That didn't make you believe in it did it? It is good if people think that Islam is dangerous. They should stop messing around with Muslims and their lands. And it doesn't matter how hard you try to portray me as one who doesn't believe in Islam because I don't want to kill you, it isn't going to work. There are more than a billion muslims who want peaceful lives even if they are living next to kafirs plotting against them like you. We've gone over this before but you should go over it one more time. You seem to be suffering from selective amnesia.

Humsafar
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2000 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#58

Unread post by Humsafar » Fri May 18, 2007 5:24 pm

Tawhid is central to Islam only in theological/philosphical sense. Muslims can do little with it, it has no practical or social value. Besides, the driving force behind the origin of Islam was not Tawhid but the social issues that prophet Mohammed faced in Makkah. You can keep talking about Tawhid and other theoretical matters till the cows come home but they will do you and Muslims no good. (However, you could still slaughter the cow :) .)

Principles of justice, ethics and charity have more practical applications. Muslims would do better to concentrate on those and stop banging the drum about Islam being the best and only true religion, and fastest grwoing religion etc. etc. All these are empy boasts fit for school yard bullies who have nothing better to say.

tahir
Posts: 1229
Joined: Sat Apr 20, 2002 4:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#59

Unread post by tahir » Fri May 18, 2007 5:28 pm

There are pages on every possible topic on the net. If everyone starts thinking that way, blogs and forums wouldn't exist.

anajmi
Posts: 13511
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:01 am

Re: The Qur'an-Basic Teachings

#60

Unread post by anajmi » Fri May 18, 2007 5:29 pm

Humsafar,

As you rightly said, this discussion will keep going around in circles, so it is time we put a stop to it. There are other things that you and I agree on and which are actually more pressing in today's world. Let us discuss those for a while.