Prayers

[khan19922001]

I am a Bohra living in Saudi Arabia. There are obviously no "Bohra" mosques etc. For the last 10 years, we have ignored going to mosques under the Bohra belief that these mosques are not within the "hud" or something. I have growing children who have no concept of mosques or prayers in congregation. I have therefore started going to my community mosque. Although I pray with my hand open, nobody has raied any objections etc. I am now very comfortable going to the mosque and can no loger pray at home alone. Will someone tell me why is it going to these mosques so wrong. There is a relaxed atmosphere, there are no hassles over the clothes I can wear, there is no "masalla" issues or where I can pray etc.

[Aleem]

Brother Khan!

I think your example proves that all we need is a little bit of "aql" and should have safety in Allah by remembering he has asked all Muslims to pray together. MUSLIMS (not sects/ bohras/ sunnis/ wahabbi's etc...)

We are all part of the ummah in my personal opinion/ belieif and by praying in congregation with others who earnestly pray towards Allah - HOW CAN THAT BE WRONG?

Good for you and Alhamdullilah - Mashallah - May your prayers be answered any may your children learn the value of congregational/ community prayers with muslim brethren.

[khan19922001]

Dear Br. Aleem

Thank you for your comments. I don't want to offend you but are you a Bohra. I would really like some Bohra to respond. Mr Qiyam where are you

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Khan

Have patience, Br. Qiyam will be back soon spreading gospel of Syedana. He will tell you to do Niyaa in certain way or will instruct you to go thru motion of praying or will come flat out and tell you that your prayers are not valid since you are praying behind Imaam who has no RAZA from Syedana.

As a Muslim (I am not Bohra) my humble advice to you is that ignore all that Humbug!
A sincere prayer with Niyaa of praying to Allah SWT is sufficient for all of us.

May Allah accept your prayers and lead you and your children to true deen of Islam.

Wasalaam
.

[porus]

If you participate in congregational prayer behind an Imam who does not have raza from Sayedna, your prayers are not valid.

The reason is that you would be acknowledging someone other than the pure Imam as your leader. That would turn you into a munafiq and we have all heard of the famous saying attributed to Imam Baqir that if you did not love the Imams than you will die a kafir.

In Madina, I noticed Bohras would not join the congregational prayers. Instead they would wait in their musafarkhana until the congregational prayers finished. They would then proceed to offer their prayers.

While in Madina, I objected to this practice. A "more enlightened mulla" suggested a compromise. He said that I should join the congereagation as long as I did not take the niyyat and only pretended to pray. Immediately after the prayer, I should offer my prayer. That would be acceptable.

It always amazes me that mullas can read the mind of Allah!

[Aleem]

Brother Khan:

Yes I am bohra - in that my family is part of the bohra community. But I do not like to associate myself with what the bohra sect has become. Mas'shallah I wish to say I am part of the Muslim Ummah as well as a fatimis' ismaili believer. - And not a dweller on present khotar folklore and hypocrisy.

[Sajid Zafar]

Br. Khan:

I faced the same problem while working in Thailand. I started attending mosque (as what we call Khuda ka Ghar)istead of staying back. I was received with fervor and esteem and nobody ever raised a single question about my beliefs. Now I am doing the same while residing here in North America.

On the other hand, I have witnessed an event when a Khan Saheb walked in Barkate Haidery's Husami Masjid [Karachi, Pakistan] and was asked by our so called "Thekedar of Isalm" to leave the mosque without pray.

To me it is immaterial wheather it is a Sunni, Shia or Bohra mosque. I don't mind to pray as long as it is mosque. However, have find it difficult to pray in Shia mosque as their way of praying is different than Sunnis and Bohras.

[ponga bhori]

Br Khan,
Soon you shall be praying with hands joined.
Sooner you follow the sunnah the better.

[Muslim First]

.

Brother Khan.

Its all about understanding Islam. You can only do it by reading material available on Sunnah and Quran. There is no published material for Bohra's to read, and they are actively discouraged to read any non Bohra material. I am sure what Br. Ponga Bohri says could very well happen.

Once again, May Allah accept your and ours prayers and reward you many fold for prying in Jamaat.

Wasalaam

.

[Muddai]

It is ironic that no one is adressing the larger issue of why the Muslims of Saudi Arabia prohibit Bohra mosques, or any other that fellow Muslims of other sects are comfortable praying in.

Everyone is jumping in with their own biases as to why it is OK or not to pray in the mosque that happens to be there. Let there be mosques and this issue becomes totally irrelevant.

I am an ex-Bohra if it is of significance to anyone.

[Muslim First]

.
Br. Muddai

I am sure SA has Shia Masjids. SA has some areas where Shia's are there. If Bohra Shiasm was an open society then I do not think they would have problem.

BTW, They do have Jamaat Khanas in Mecca and Madina. I did not see Saudi Religious Patrol in there. I am sure heads will roll if Maulan started cursing over PA.

Wasalaam

.

[Muslim]

The government controls all mosques in Saudi Arabia. Shia are not allowed to build mosques.

[Muslim]

For that matter there are no exclusively Shafii or Maliki mosques in Saudi Arabia, according to the Saudi Institute.

[Dilber]

Actually there ARE shia masjids in Saudi Arabia.
In eastern provice, particularly around Qatif and Al Ahsa, don't get surprised if you get beaten simply becuase you pray the sunni way.

While in such places, praying even by the roadside ( for want of time and place)could cause you serious trouble. A mad man might come shouting at you and if you are not firm then you have had it. Take it from me.
This is FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE
Mainly these people are Twelvers.

However, it is a little more tolerant in Bahrain where almost 70% are Shia or what is known as Bahraniz.

[anajmi]

I do not understand the problem over here. It is not like the mosques in Saudi do not allow Shafii or whoever to pray, so why do you want a shafii or a bohra mosque for that matter.

If they weren't allowing you to pray in their mosques and at the same time preventing you from building your own, then you have a right to complain.

Considering the kind of muslims we are, no wonder we are getting whipped the world over.

[Muddai]

If Bohra Shiasm was an open society then I do not think they would have problem.

If Saudi Arabia were an open societythen they really wouldn't give a damn if a particular sect was open before allowing them to practice their faith.

I think it is hypocritical to criticize Bohra's for not allowing them to pray in their mosques when some don't even allow Bohra's to have a mosque where they are the majority. If you check the Jamaat Directory you will find that SA is the only one with no contact or phone numbers listed.

Ever wonder why ?

[khan19922001]

Dear Br. Porus

Your reply raises some serious concerns. While I do not want to challenge your beliefs as I believe that everyone of us has been given "the sense of logic and reasoning" I would like to state that the conclusion that I have reached from your reply is that A) only the Bohra prayers are valid B) as only the Bohra prayers are valid the remaining "muslims" are effectively wasting their time. Only the one million odd Bohra's would therefore enter Paradise.!!!

What was the purpose of sending down so may Prophets and books if in the end only a few Bohra would be the true believers.

Another issue is won't God ask the Bohra's that having achieved the state of truth, why did they not spread the truth and kept it to themselves. I think it is imperative that the Mulsim Ummah which is, per the Bohra's, on there way to hell be warned.!!!

[Khairan]

> Another issue is won't God ask the Bohra's that having achieved the state of truth, why did they not spread the truth and kept it to themselves.

I've actually asked this question before, and the answer that I was given is that the Bohras are simply custodians of the Way of the Prophet. It is for the Imam to establish true Islam in the world when the time comes. Until then, the Bohras simply follow the Way and wait.

[Muslim]

Actually there ARE shia masjids in Saudi Arabia.

Yes there are Shia mosques - those built before the Wahabis came to power. They are not allowed to build new mosques.

----------------------

I do not understand the problem over here. It is not like the mosques in Saudi do not allow Shafii or whoever to pray, so why do you want a shafii or a bohra mosque for that matter.

I agree to a certain extent. I would hope that God would listen to one's prayers wherever they happen to be - a Bohra mosque, a Sunni mosque or at home.

However, whilst Bohras are not prohibited from attending non-Bohra mosques, they would only consider their congregational prayers valid if they pray under one of their own who has been given such authority. If they prayed under a non-Bohra, they would have to repeat the prayer individual - so they might as well pray at home. They also have their own method and timing of praying, and their own customs and rituals for which they use their mosques and halls. All this would not be permitted in a country which not only does not allow any freedom of or from religion, but seeks to impose its own brand of Islam on the population using any means at their disposal.

Bohra leaders nowadays do not have the influence they used to have with the Saudi princes. Saudi police have been monitoring the activities of Bohras who have had to keep a low-profile. I am not aware of the situation right now, but a number of Bohras have already been expelled from the kingdom.

The case of the Ismailis in Saudi Arabia:
http://www.saudiinstitute.org/najran.htm

Religious Freedom in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,
Focus on Citizens:
http://www.saudiinstitute.org/Reports/R ... rlg_en.htm

----------------------

It is for the Imam to establish true Islam in the world when the time comes. Until then, the Bohras simply follow the Way and wait.

This argument does not make sense, because during the earlier period of seclusion, the Ismaili Imams (7th to 10th) were extremely aggressive in proselytising through their missionaries (Dais) and it was a result of this work that the Mahdi was able to establish his state in North Africa.

[khan19922001]

It looks that the Bohra's are leaving too many things for the Imam. Juma prayers is out, all types of "tableegh" is out. I think it is high time the Imam comes out of seclusion as we don't know how may other things we are doing or rather not doing because of the imam being in seclusion

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Khan

Islam is a religion given to Ummah by Allah SWT and was completed by revelations to his last Nabi, Muhammad SAW. As you readd more and learn more about it by reading Quran and Tafsir you will come to know that it is not about Dais or Imaams or about Prophets family. True Islam is about Ibaadat of Allah as shown by his Rasool and living and enjoying this life by staying within the limits set by the Allah SWT and his prophet and preparing for after life.

Wasalaam

.

[Muslim]

As you readd more and learn more about it by reading Quran and Tafsir you will come to know that it is not about Dais or Imaams or about Prophets family.

In the same spirit, neither is 'true Islam' about fabricated traditions, khulafa rashidin, companions or about following one of four madhabs, yet that is what is practised as though it were an integral and undeniable part of faith.

A Sunni must follow one of four imams, a Twelver follows a mujtahid, and a Bohra follows the Dai. They all claim to represent 'true Islam' and they are all able to justify their beliefs by interpreting the Quran.

Or, do you just want everyone to follow what YOU think ‘true Islam’ ought to be?

[Abdulla]

This issue of a believer refusing to pray behind another believer, did not happen at the times of the Prophet (saws). This arose only when some of the muslims created and invented sects in the Ummah of Islam, each refusing to pray behind the other… for no other reason, than arrogance and pride, and the feeling of their own superiority and righteousness compared to the one who is leading the prayer in congregation.



Allah did not name the believers Sunnis, or Shias, or Ismailis, or Bohris, or Shafeis, or Malekis, etc. He has chosen to name the believers as ‘muslims’… and all the other names of sects are nothing but the mere invention of man himself, and have absolutely no basis in the deen of Islam!



Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 22 Surah Hajj verse 77-78:O you who have believed, do ‘rukooh’ (bow down) and do ‘sajdah’ (prostration), and worship your Lord Allah Alone, and do righteous deeds: it may be that you attain true success! Exert your utmost for the cause of Allah, as one should. He has chosen you for His service, and has not laid on you any hardship in your religion. Therefore, be steadfast in the religion of your father Abraham. Allah had named you ‘muslims’ before this, and has named you (muslims) in this Quran also, so that the Messenger may be a witness in regard to you, and you may be witnesses in regard to the rest of mankind

[Abdulla]

Abu Hurairah narrated that the Prophet (saws) said: "The prayer of a man in congregation is twenty-five times more superior (in reward) to his prayer in his house or market.”



Abu ad-Darda' narrated that the Messenger of Allah (saws) said: "If there are three men in a village or desert and salah is not established (in congregation) among them, then the Satan takes mastery over them. So be with the congregation since the wolf devours the remote (stray) sheep."

[Abdulla]

Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 3 Surah Ale Imran verse 31-32: O Prophet, tell the people, “If you sincerely love Allah, follow me. Then Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, for He is All Forgiving, All Merciful.” Also say to them, “Obey Allah and His Messenger.” And if, in spite of this, they do not accept your invitation, warn them that Allah does not love those, who refuse to obey Him and His Messenger.



Allah says clearly in the Holy Quran, Obey Allah and His Messenger (saws). Do you see “obey the imam, obey the dai, obey the bhaisaheb, obey the aamils, obey the shaikhs, etc.” anywhere? Obey Allah and obey His Messenger … that is the truth of Islam.

[Abdulla]

The only ‘imams’ or leaders that come to mankind and proclaim that they have been appointed the ‘imams’ are the Prophets of Allah. No one else has the right to come to mankind and declare that they have been appointed the ‘imams’. The Messengers of Allah Subhanah are the only people who have the right to come to mankind and proclaim and declare that they have been appointed as Allah’s Messengers and leaders of the believers. They invite people to believe and worship Allah Alone, and follow them in the deen.



All the other ‘imams’ or leaders are chosen or appointed by man himself. Ameer-ul-Mumineen, Hadrat Ali ibn Abi Taalib (r.a.) was chosen by the believers in Medina on 21-Dhul Hajjah in the year 35 Hijri as their ‘imam’ or leader, after the murder of the third Khalifa, Uthmaan ibn Affan (r.a.). At first, Hadrat Ali (r.a.) declined to take on the leadership of the believers, but when the believers insisted, and in the general well-being of the Ummah, the noble companion of the Messenger of Allah (saws), Hadrat Ali (r.a.), accepted the leadership.

[Abdulla]

There is absolutely no mention of this ‘fantastic’ story of the imam going into ‘purdah’ in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah of the Messenger (saws). Thus obviously, it cannot be part of the deen of Islam. The best people to address this question would be the ones who propagate this fabulous story! They are the ones who have created this story, and they should be the best ones to offer a reasonable answer for it, obviously, giving evidence from the Quran and Sunnah … if this is indeed part of the deen of Islam. If not, then they can create any number of stories to hang on to their power base which has been built around this fantastic story

[Muslim]

A number of convenient “gaps”. I will ignore the wasteful gloating of Abu Hurrairah et al. which amount to a load of BS as already demonstrated in a previous post.

This issue of a believer refusing to pray behind another believer, did not happen at the times of the Prophet (saws).

I highly doubt you can profess with absolute certainty what did or didn’t happen during the Prophet’s time. Nevertheless, the argument centres around who would be worthy enough to be a mumin (true believer) in the Bohra eyes, and thus lead the prayers.

Allah did not name the believers Sunnis, or Shias, or Ismailis, or Bohris, or Shafeis, or Malekis, etc. He has chosen to name the believers as ‘muslims’… and all the other names of sects are nothing but the mere invention of man himself, and have absolutely no basis in the deen of Islam!

Oh right, so when Allah called a man a Shia of Moses (28/15) or when he called Abraham a Shia of Noah (37/83) he actually wasn’t aware that it has no basis in Islam? (Astaghfirullah). Or do you think when the Prophet said “Ali, you and your Shia will be the dwellers of paradise”, he was actually going against deen?! (Astaghfirullah). What is with you that you want to concentrate on the letter of one verse and ignore the spirit of the Qur’an as a whole?

The Quran actually uses a variety of names – muslim, mumin, shia, companions of the right hand, etc for various groups of people. The significance of the name lies in fulfilling the conditions set for them in the eyes of Allah and not in the label in the sight of men. Or else, we could just remove the labels and we would all be one big happy family.

Oh, but you’re right about the word “Sunni,” it is an invention by a man called Muawiyah who when he consolidated power in Arabia on the death of Ali, called his sect “Ahlul Sunnah wal-Jamma” (the conformist traditionalists).

Allah says clearly in the Holy Quran, Obey Allah and His Messenger (saws). Do you see “obey the imam, obey the dai, obey the bhaisaheb, obey the aamils, obey the shaikhs, etc.” anywhere? Obey Allah and obey His Messenger … that is the truth of Islam.

The “where do you see” question.

First, the Quran has asked us to obey *those in authority* IN ADDITION to the Allah and His Messenger in 4/59. This is the verse you forgot to read. Who the “authority” is, is open to interpretation. Sunnis, I’m sure, have persons such as Bukhari and Abu Hurraira and their great madhab imams as their authority. Shia on the other hand profess Ahlul Bayt as their authority.

Logically speaking it is impossible to obey the Prophet directly, since he is dead. So we are forced to obey him through the narrations that have been handed to us or through any office he had appointed before his death, or both.

Now you are aware that a Shia imam claims his authority derives ultimately from the Prophet himself. Similarly the Sunni scholar will claim his narrations are reliably from companions and thus the Prophet himself. No difference there, you choose!

A “where do you see” question for you is “where do you see follow khulafa rashideen in the Quran?” You don’t, but it doesn’t stop you from contaminating your deen with their biddah, huh?

The Messengers of Allah Subhanah are the only people who have the right to come to mankind and proclaim and declare that they have been appointed as Allah’s Messengers and leaders of the believers.

Just your opinion, the Quran does not say all Imams are Prophets. In fact the word Imam is used in a variety of contexts (e.g. Imams of hellfire) and its quite astonishing to hear you demonstrate such profound ignorance.

All the other ‘imams’ or leaders are chosen or appointed by man himself.

While you give examples of caliphs being imams appointed by man and not God, you are actually confirming that a part of your deen is to follow the sunna of caliphs appointed by people, not God. Which is what we already know, but maybe you shouldn’t bother following Muhammad either, and appoint your own prophet.

There is absolutely no mention of this ‘fantastic’ story of the imam going into ‘purdah’ in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah of the Messenger (saws).

The ‘purdah’ signifies concealing identity from the general public. It is hardly necessary for “mention” in the Qur’an to allow you to conceal your identity.

[Muslim]

Re: There is absolutely no mention of this ‘fantastic’ story of the imam going into ‘purdah’ in the Holy Quran or the Sunnah of the Messenger (saws).
&
Re: All the other ‘imams’ or leaders are chosen or appointed by man himself.

Here is a mention in your own books of one imam who appointed by God and is not a prophet (since there are none after Muhammad):

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

[khan19922001]

Dear Brother Muslim First and Abdullah

When I posted a small query on this forum, I had no idea that the whole issue will get carried away so far. I am now more confused over the issue of praying in the mosque.

Dear Muslim First, I am assuming that you are a Bohra. Do you firmly believe that prayers behind an Imam other than one appointed by Syedna are not valid.

I have been bought up in a family which does not regard the Sayedna as a God and a protector from hell fire. After all the stories that I have read about the Kothar, the latest Mazoon/Muqasi episode, the horrible rape stories in Karachi, my actual beliefs have been strengthened. I honestly cannot pray behind an Imam, who even though has been appointed by Sayedna, commits adultery and helps the rapists.

All my life, I have been scared of going to the Bohra Mosques. I was always worried that my clothes were not OK, the topi was not clean enough and the "masalla" was not rich enough. The attitude of the Aamils's did not help each other. When I came to Saudi Arabia, the attiude of the Bhai Saheb's was even worse. I was on numerous ocassions humiliated for a variety of reasons and I just hated going to their markaz. Now fortunately the markaz has been closed down. But now since I am doing well in my job and pay enormous sums as "wajebaat" and "jaman" I can almost get away with anything. The Bhai Saheb who came to my house also said that we should make an effort to pray with the "others". I am sure he meant to fake the prayers with them, as a lot of Bohra's do here, and than pray again alone in the house.

I know all this is irrelevent to what is being discussed, but I just wanted you to know how confusing it can become for an ordinary person, who just wants to think and do the correct thing.