Shaikh Ahmed Ali Raj passes away.

[Muslim First]

Br. Shaikh-ul-Tawil Porus;

AS

What do you say about this that,

Ameer ul Monineen Syedna Ali ibn Abi Talib R.A Named His Sons after the Three Caliphs

Mubarak have you learned anything about this from His Majesty Shaikh Raj?

[Gulf]

ha ha ha.. why admin dont close this thread so Mr. raj soul can rest in great peace or what ever...

admin sould understand one thing that the progressives exist on this site are hypocrate they will repeatedly drag this thread out and out and will not let the thread die in natural way

RIP

[accountability]

mubarak saheb: can you authenticate daim ul islam. what is its origin. Please provide a historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffar. please quote some authentic sources, except daim ul islam.

Porous: I was just searching for historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffer, intrestingly i did not find one. there isn't any historical refrence.

[babu]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Names of Martyrs who sacrificed their lives at Karbala

Its 80 yaar ,,, but they were 82 according to engineer sahib...

they are :

81 Shaheed Rajab Ali

82 Moiz Ali Raj

hahahahahaha

[Muslim First]

Porous: I was just searching for historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffer, intrestingly i did not find one. there isn't any historical refrence.

Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus and His Majesty Alim-ul-Daim ul Islam Shaikh Mubark are deligently working to create historical references for you brother. Have patience!

[porus]

Originally posted by accountability:

Porous: I was just searching for historical proof of imam ismail bin jaffer, intrestingly i did not find one. there isn't any historical refrence.

I might be able to help you about the 'history' of both Daaimul Islam and Imam Ismail. But first, let me know what you mean by "historical proof"?

[accountability]

I mean, that imam jaffer nominated ismail bin jaffer, as ismail died before jaffer us sadiq. Morever mastureen have kind of dubious authencity regarding their ancestors.

[accountability]

please read "authenticity".

[porus]

Originally posted by accountability:
I mean, that imam jaffer nominated ismail bin jaffer, as ismail died before jaffer us sadiq. Morever mastureen have kind of dubious authencity regarding their ancestors.

I do not think that there is a satisfactory resolution to your problem.

Let us say you tell me that a late Mr. A was your teacher. I could verify that if I find another person who knew both you and your teacher. Then I could say it to a third person who tells it a fouth and so on. In the process, someone who hated your guts embellishes the story by saying your teacher was a mad man and passed on some of his silly ideas to you. Fast forward several generations and a myth gets firmly established that all you and your teachers were mad.

Now, You relate the same story to your son, who respects you and your teacher. Because he is your son, you tell him a lot more and often about you and your teacher. Your son then tells it his children. Fast forward several generations and you have a very different story about your ancestors and his teacher.

Which one would you rather believe? A story passed from father to son within the same family, or from others not familiar with your family.

As far as the Fatimids are concerned, Mahdi did not suddenly appear from nowhere and claimed to be the Imam. He had a large number of people with him who have associated with his family for generations and agreed with his claim that he was the Imam descended from Ismail.

Now mastureen had a good reason to hide. There was murderous opposition to their claim of being rightful Imams and many, including most of the IthnaAshari Imams were murdered by rival Umaayyads and Abbasids.

In the final analysis, all this does not matter. I try to detach philosophy/religion of sects from personalities of their Imams and find aspects of each that appeal to me. No sect completely appeals to me but I find that most sects will contribute to your undrestanding of 'life'.

All sects are to be respected. No one has truth, or better, they are all true.

Bigotry is what you should avoid. This is done when you arrogantly claim yours is the only true religion and yours is the only way to worship. These bigots then make their blood boil and hurt others. You are familiar with this phenomena in Islam perpetrated by Wahhabi bigots.

To end, do you have an authenticated history of Allah? Who verified it for you and why do you believe him or her? How about that old photo of your great grandfather? Who authenticated that he was truly related to you and why do you belive him or her?

[Muslim First]

Excellent Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus

Now can you can shed some light on Aisha RA on 'Khajjar shooting Arrpws in dead bodies' and story of 'Kipti and sipti' ?

Wasalaam

[Muslim First]

Isma'il bin Jafar

Ismail bin Jafar

[porus]

Originally posted by Muslim First:
Excellent Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus

Now can you can shed some light on Aisha RA on 'Khajjar shooting Arrpws in dead bodies' and story of 'Kipti and sipti' ?

Wasalaam

Muslim First,

I have decided not to engage in any conversation on these forums with you or your cohort on any subject.

[Muslim First]

Br. AC

AS

Shaikh-ul-Tawil Janab Porus wrote:

All sects are to be respected. No one has truth, or better, they are all true.

I agree but remember there were no sects during the time of Prophet SAW. Aim is to be immulate that period.

Reflect on this

IMMUSLIM
New
Member # 7766

posted August 13, 2008 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A very Proud Sunni moment INDEED!!

Why do we call ourselves Sunnis, Shias, Bohras, Ismailis whereas Quran Says

"As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with God: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." 6.159

And

"But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself." 23.053
"But leave them in their confused ignorance for a time." 23.054

Wasalaam

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by Hussain_KSA:

Originally posted by porus:
Brother porus,

It is being qouted from one of the Risael (letters) of Syedna Abde Ali Saifuddin which he wrote to Amils that time. I has been mentioned on this forum earliar by Mr. Saifuddin Insaf. He might have copy of that letter.

However, I am not agree with you that Bohras can be spared this ugly demonstration every day as the Young Generation of Dawoodi Bohras only know 51 & 52 while the older generation has proved tradition of blind following. Matam has now become a compulsory part of daily prayers too.

Salam alekum,

Dear Respected Brother Porus and Hussain_KSA,

Dawat-a-haq, Sayyedna wa Molana, Aaka Abd-a-Ali Saiffuddin sahib via letters which are collected in his book named ‘Mosam-a-Bahar’ has ordered to people in general and all Aamil’s in particular to NOT to practice chest beating (sinajani), Aaka Abd-a-Ali said that Sinajani is not matam and Sinajani is ‘biddat’ of Ithnashari, and all the formers Dawat-a-haq has forbidden the chest beating practice in the name of Imam Hussain (a.s.)

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by porus:
To clarify, the term qaimul qiyama was initially applied to Muhammad al-Mastur, the first hidden Imam. The idea was that Muhammad al-Mastur would re-appear at the end of time.

However, instead, al-Mahdi appeared claiming to be the descendant of Muhammad al-Mastur and the idea of qaimul qiyama was modified by Kirmani and others in their elaboration of Ismaili Taawil.

The present Bohra belief retains the idea of the cycle of 7 and the qaimul qiyama would be some multiple of 7. Clearly not 21.

Porus bhai,

From which book of ‘Fatimi Dawat’ or from which honest & ‘deendar’ men/women are you quoting that the term ‘qaimul qiyama’ was initially applied to Imam Muhammad Al-Mastur (a.s.)?

Think deeply on the inference of your statement. As per the faith of Dawoodi Bohras, the Imam can neither lie nor can he be proven false. Your statement infers that the Imam Muhammad Al Mastur (a.s.) lied (mazallah) when he claimed that he is ‘Quaim’. Your statement also infers that Molana Imam Muhammad Al Mastur (a.s.) further lied (mazallah) when he claimed that he will reappear and instead of him Molana Mehdi (a.s.) appeared.

You have neither quoted any ‘Fatimi Dawat’ books nor any honest ‘deendar’ men/women and moreover your statement infers that the Molana Imam Mohammed Al Mastur (a.s.) lied (mazallah) is against the core faith of Dawoodi Bohras. Thus your hypothesis is your personal opinion and is not in the line with Shariyat.

The Quaim will be the 100th Imam and the ‘Saatra’ multiples of 7 Imams will stop on 98th Imam. For further details please refer to my Aug 10, 2008 post on page number #5.

[porus]

Mubarak,

I have no idea what Muammad al-Mastur has claimed or said; and I do not think that there is any published record of his ideas available to anyone.

I have read about the evolution of the idea of Qaaimul Qiyama in books by Daftary and Corbin. While the Imams were in hiding, their dawat continued and the idea that the Imam will re-appear at the end of the world, Qiyama, got hold. It was initially applied to Muhammad al-Mastur.

Bohras are being told that Muhammad's son, Ahmad al-Mastur is the author of Rasaail Ikhwan as-Safa. This is disputed by scholars. I understand that the idea, in an elementary form, is discussed in the Rasaail.

However, al-Mahdi appeared with no sign of Qiyamat in sight. Hence the idea of of Qaaimul Qiyama had to be modified.

I do not, as a rule, accept history as related by Bohra divines because it tends to be partisan and is designed to present a specific legendary point of view.

The idea of Qaimul Qiyama has evolved and and its various stages have been approved by Imams and Dais. So, what you get is not "truth".

As far as multiple of 7 is concerned, this is classical interpretation. Every 7th Imam is special in some way that I do not understand. Hence, multiple of 7 is my assumption, not given on any other authority. I have personally not heard of 100 in my dealings with Bohras.

[Muslim First]

Br. Mubarak

AS

Instead of Bohra if you were plain Muslim you woud not be studying and writing all the goobli-gook you are posting.

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by Danish:

[qb]Who is the one among below three mentioned names that will decide if any matter is intellectually right or wrong?

1. Sayyedna Mohammed Burhannuddin Sahib
2. Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer
3. Allah

Obviously 2.

Dear Brother Danish,

It can be clearly inferred from your post that you do not believe in Allah i.e. you are ‘Nastik’!

Danish, what is the moral of the below two mentioned stories?

1. Eik budhiya ne dava kiya ki mene Charkhe (hand spinning wheel) se seekha ki Allaha hai. Logo ne poocha: kaise? Budhiya boli: Jab me Charkha chalati hoon to yeh chalta hai aur jab me ruk jati hoon tab yeh bhi ruk jata hai. Jab itna chota sa Charkha mere bina chalye nahi chal sakta tab itni badi duniya bina kisi ke chalaye kaise chal sakti hai?

2. A debate was held on who is right/wrong between ‘Aastik’ (believer in Allah) and ‘Nastik’ (non believer in Allah). The leader of ‘Nastik’ came on time and the leader of ‘Aastik’ not arrived in appointed debate place. The gang of ‘Nastik’ started teasing members of ‘Aastik’. It was proposed that lets dissolve the meeting/debate as the leader of ‘Aastik’ has not arrived and consider ‘Nastik’ as winner. At the last minute the leader of ‘Aastik’ arrived. The first question that everybody asked - why were you late?

He replied: There is a river in between meeting place and my home. When I was sailing on my boat suddenly there was disturbance in water and my boat got broken in hundreds of pieces and all its broken parts got scattered far away in strong flow and big waves of river. When I was swimming my way out, I saw suddenly all those scattered parts on its own got assembled automatically in harmony and my boat was in same shape like before accident!

‘Nastik’ group shouted: It is impossible, that scattered parts of a boat got assembled ON ITS OWN in harmony!”

Leader of ‘Aastik’ replied: If parts of a small boat cannot get assembled in harmony on its own then how such a big world can get assembled in harmony by its own?

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by Danish:

Originally posted by Mubarak:
Convention in Fatimi Dawat is: we club ‘Dua’ with ‘salwat’ on Prophet Mohammed (a.s.). Allah will surely accept the request for ‘salwat’ on Prophet Mohammed (a.s.) and along with it our prayers as they are clubbed together.

What's the purpose of consistently and relentlessly regurgitating/parroting 'duas' & 'salaats' on human beings and the dead (especially the ones whom one has never known) and adding A.S., TUS, SAW, etc. after their names? Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?

Danish,

Before replying to your question let me throw a challenge to you. You can take assistance from any like minded of yours. Even you can approach leaders of Christians, Hindus, Yahoods, etc for help in encountering this challenge.

Challenge to Danish

• We challenge you if you can bring a book like the Quran?
• If that is too much than we curtail our challenge to make your work easy: can you bring a chapter same like that in Quran? You may choose the smallest chapter in Quran!
• If that’s too seems very hard than we further curtail our challenge, can you bring a verse same like that in Quran? And you may select the smallest verse in Quran!

We challenge you that you cannot bring even a smallest verse like that in Quran. Can you? In past One Thousand and Four Hundred+ years no one can stand this challenge of Quran. None of anybody in any religion or those who do not believe in any religion was able to meet this challenge!

Replies to your questions:
Danish: What's the purpose of consistently and relentlessly regurgitating/parroting 'duas' & 'salaats' on human beings and the dead (especially the ones whom one has never known) and adding A.S., TUS, SAW, etc. after their names?

Mubarak: All types of stones will be called stones but not all stones are alike. Neelam/Yaqoot/Akeek/Feroza/Sapphire though will be termed as stones but they are special stones. By the same token, Prophets/Vasi/Imams/Dai’s are though human but they are special/super humans. Will you keep/praise all types of stones in your locker or only those which are precious? Likewise, when it is religious leader we praise accordingly. To send ‘Salwat’ on Prophet is order of Allah. We are following Allah’s order. And to prove Allah wrong you have to encounter the above mentioned challenge.

On your point of ‘dead’, the faith of believers in Allah is as follows in the word of Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib (Surat):

‘Kabron me jeevta che Bari na auliya,
De javan inhe, je koi nida kare.’

‘Baki nathi magar yaroon Khuda che,
Temaz baki kul Auliya sada che.’

Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No

[anajmi]

One needs to think about a simple equation. Is there any other species on earth which is similar to man? Not one. If nature created them all, then what are the chances of man turning out to be completely different from every other species on earth?

[Danish]

Originally posted by Mubarak:

Originally posted by Danish:
Who is the one among below three mentioned names that will decide if any matter is intellectually right or wrong?

1. Sayyedna Mohammed Burhannuddin Sahib
2. Dr. Mr. Asghar Ali Engineer
3. Allah

Obviously 2.

Dear Brother Danish,

It can be clearly inferred from your post that you do not believe in Allah i.e. you are ‘Nastik’!

You asked a question having three options, and I answered it. You option #3 is nonsensical unless your "Allah" is a physical fathomable male supernatural chauvinist with man-made attributes.

Danish, what is the moral of the below two mentioned stories?

The stories convey that both the "budhiya" and the "Aastik" were mentally ill. As for especially the leader of "Aastik", he displayed irresponsibility, deceit and bigotry.

Anyhow, both those stories has nothing to do with your "religious" kind of Allah (The God).

Here, check this out and understand YOUR kind of God (i.e. the man-made one): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Danish]

Originally posted by Mubarak:
Challenge to Danish

• We challenge you if you can bring a book like the Quran?
• If that is too much than we curtail our challenge to make your work easy: can you bring a chapter same like that in Quran? You may choose the smallest chapter in Quran!
• If that’s too seems very hard than we further curtail our challenge, can you bring a verse same like that in Quran? And you may select the smallest verse in Quran!

We challenge you that you cannot bring even a smallest verse like that in Quran. Can you? In past One Thousand and Four Hundred+ years no one can stand this challenge of Quran. None of anybody in any religion or those who do not believe in any religion was able to meet this challenge![/QB]

Sura like it challenge: http://suralikeit.com/

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

Now I'm sure we shall witness all sorts of excuses (genetically embedded and brainwashed).

Mubarak: All types of stones will be called stones but not all stones are alike. Neelam/Yaqoot/Akeek/Feroza/Sapphire though will be termed as stones but they are special stones. By the same token, Prophets/Vasi/Imams/Dai’s are though human but they are special/super humans. Will you keep/praise all types of stones in your locker or only those which are precious? Likewise, when it is religious leader we praise accordingly. To send ‘Salwat’ on Prophet is order of Allah. We are following Allah’s order. And to prove Allah wrong you have to encounter the above mentioned challenge.

WHAT??? Comparing stones to humans...right-o! LOL, ROFL.

On your point of ‘dead’, the faith of believers in Allah is as follows in the word of Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib (Surat):

‘Kabron me jeevta che Bari na auliya,
De javan inhe, je koi nida kare.’

‘Baki nathi magar yaroon Khuda che,
Temaz baki kul Auliya sada che.’

There nothing left in the grave, except some fragile bones of the dead. All dead bodies decompose and dissipate away (burried or not), unless chemically treated and embalmed for preservation.

Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No

Then don't make HIM look like one. The way religionists (especially Muslims) portray "HIM" is as if "HE" is deaf, dumb and blind.

[anajmi]

http://suralikeit.com/

Is there a translation of this new surah? Is there a single person who believes in it to be the truth? The challenge by God to produce a surah like it doesn't mean producing sentences and paragraphs filled with words. Is that what you understood? Is that aididism safarism teaches?

[anajmi]

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

This crap is nothing but a book about the bible being peddled by followers of crap as a new quran. You should read the reviews of this book on Amazon. Not one person other than some Muslims are interested in it. Not even the christians. Infact, not even the author found enough motivation to put out a positive review about it.

Now I'm sure we shall witness all sorts of excuses (genetically embedded and brainwashed).

I love cowards who attack and then go on the defensive even before the opposition has a chance to respond. Shows you how much they confidence they have on their own crap (and most of the times it is the work of others!!).

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by Danish:

Originally posted by Mubarak:
Challenge to Danish

• We challenge you if you can bring a book like the Quran?
• If that is too much than we curtail our challenge to make your work easy: can you bring a chapter same like that in Quran? You may choose the smallest chapter in Quran!
• If that’s too seems very hard than we further curtail our challenge, can you bring a verse same like that in Quran? And you may select the smallest verse in Quran!

We challenge you that you cannot bring even a smallest verse like that in Quran. Can you? In past One Thousand and Four Hundred+ years no one can stand this challenge of Quran. None of anybody in any religion or those who do not believe in any religion was able to meet this challenge!

Sura like it challenge: http://suralikeit.com/

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

Now I'm sure we shall witness all sorts of excuses (genetically embedded and brainwashed).

Mubarak: All types of stones will be called stones but not all stones are alike. Neelam/Yaqoot/Akeek/Feroza/Sapphire though will be termed as stones but they are special stones. By the same token, Prophets/Vasi/Imams/Dai’s are though human but they are special/super humans. Will you keep/praise all types of stones in your locker or only those which are precious? Likewise, when it is religious leader we praise accordingly. To send ‘Salwat’ on Prophet is order of Allah. We are following Allah’s order. And to prove Allah wrong you have to encounter the above mentioned challenge.

WHAT??? Comparing stones to humans...right-o! LOL, ROFL.

On your point of ‘dead’, the faith of believers in Allah is as follows in the word of Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib (Surat):

‘Kabron me jeevta che Bari na auliya,
De javan inhe, je koi nida kare.’

‘Baki nathi magar yaroon Khuda che,
Temaz baki kul Auliya sada che.’

There nothing left in the grave, except some fragile bones of the dead. All dead bodies decompose and dissipate away (burried or not), unless chemically treated and embalmed for preservation.

Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No

Then don't make HIM look like one. The way religionists (especially Muslims) portray "HIM" is as if "HE" is deaf, dumb and blind.[/QB]

Sura like it challenge: http://suralikeit.com/

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

Brother Danish,

To counter the challenge of the Quran you are pitching the Bible (New and Old Testaments)! Brother Danish, the Quran is flawless and your version of Bible is with full of flaws. For the complete detail of flaws in your version of Bible please read the literature of Mr. Thomas Paine. He was the key person in getting freedom for USA. Brother, first face your Bible flaws then dare to compete it with flawless Quran. For free access to ‘The Age of Reason’ Part 1 & 2 by Mr. Thomas Paine please visit the following sites:

http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... part2.html

Danish: WHAT??? Comparing stones to humans...right-o! LOL, ROFL.
Mubarak: Humans are made of clay/soil and precious stones too are some form of soil. Thus why do you think comparison is not apt? Moreover if you will think neutral then message is clear: Not all humans succeed in life – Why there is only one Bill Gates? Why not there are millions of men equally rich like Bill Gates? Why not all humans as intelligent as Socrates? Thus, Prophets, Imams, Dai’s who are super humans are praised in accordance.

quote:
________________________________________
Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No
________________________________________
Then don't make HIM look like one. The way religionists (especially Muslims) portray "HIM" is as if "HE" is deaf, dumb and blind.

Mubarak: Brother Danish, you worship idol of Jesus and Marry. You consider Jesus as your God but your idol of Jesus is deaf and dumb like any other idols!!!

[Mubarak]

Originally posted by Danish:

Originally posted by Mubarak:
Challenge to Danish

• We challenge you if you can bring a book like the Quran?
• If that is too much than we curtail our challenge to make your work easy: can you bring a chapter same like that in Quran? You may choose the smallest chapter in Quran!
• If that’s too seems very hard than we further curtail our challenge, can you bring a verse same like that in Quran? And you may select the smallest verse in Quran!

We challenge you that you cannot bring even a smallest verse like that in Quran. Can you? In past One Thousand and Four Hundred+ years no one can stand this challenge of Quran. None of anybody in any religion or those who do not believe in any religion was able to meet this challenge!

Sura like it challenge: http://suralikeit.com/

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

Now I'm sure we shall witness all sorts of excuses (genetically embedded and brainwashed).

Mubarak: All types of stones will be called stones but not all stones are alike. Neelam/Yaqoot/Akeek/Feroza/Sapphire though will be termed as stones but they are special stones. By the same token, Prophets/Vasi/Imams/Dai’s are though human but they are special/super humans. Will you keep/praise all types of stones in your locker or only those which are precious? Likewise, when it is religious leader we praise accordingly. To send ‘Salwat’ on Prophet is order of Allah. We are following Allah’s order. And to prove Allah wrong you have to encounter the above mentioned challenge.

WHAT??? Comparing stones to humans...right-o! LOL, ROFL.

On your point of ‘dead’, the faith of believers in Allah is as follows in the word of Sheikh Sadik Ali sahib (Surat):

‘Kabron me jeevta che Bari na auliya,
De javan inhe, je koi nida kare.’

‘Baki nathi magar yaroon Khuda che,
Temaz baki kul Auliya sada che.’

There nothing left in the grave, except some fragile bones of the dead. All dead bodies decompose and dissipate away (burried or not), unless chemically treated and embalmed for preservation.

Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No

Then don't make HIM look like one. The way religionists (especially Muslims) portray "HIM" is as if "HE" is deaf, dumb and blind.[/QB]

Sura like it challenge: http://suralikeit.com/

The Quran like it challenge: http://www.islam-exposed.org/

Brother Danish,

To counter the challenge of the Quran you are pitching the Bible (New and Old Testaments)! Brother Danish, the Quran is flawless and your version of Bible is with full of flaws. For the complete detail of flaws in your version of Bible please read the literature of Mr. Thomas Paine. He was the key person in getting freedom for USA. Brother, first face your Bible flaws then dare to compete it with flawless Quran. For free access to ‘The Age of Reason’ Part 1 & 2 by Mr. Thomas Paine please visit the following sites:

http://www.infidels.org/library/histori ... part2.html

Danish: WHAT??? Comparing stones to humans...right-o! LOL, ROFL.
Mubarak: Humans are made of clay/soil and precious stones too are some form of soil. Thus why do you think comparison is not apt? Moreover if you will think neutral then message is clear: Not all humans succeed in life – Why there is only one Bill Gates? Why not there are millions of men equally rich like Bill Gates? Why not all humans as intelligent as Socrates? Thus, Prophets, Imams, Dai’s who are super humans are praised in accordance.

quote:
________________________________________
Danish: Is your 'Allah' deaf, forgetful, unknowing or evanescence?
Mubarak: No
________________________________________
Then don't make HIM look like one. The way religionists (especially Muslims) portray "HIM" is as if "HE" is deaf, dumb and blind.

Mubarak: Brother Danish, you worship idol of Jesus and Marry. You consider Jesus as your God but your idol of Jesus is deaf and dumb like any other idols!!!

[porus]

Originally by Mubarak:

Humans are made of clay/soil and precious stones too are some form of soil.

Mubarak,

I commend you on your contributions to this forum, especially the references to Deeni books and where to order them from.

My opinion is that there is no argument that can be advanced from 'reason' that would prove that God exists. We need not regurgitate classical arguments of Creationism which have been discussed all over the web countless times.

With reference to your quote above, and leaving aside what the Quran says, if we go by modern science, we can say that human beings are made of 'nothing'.

The belief that everything on earth is made of about 100 basic elements, while correct, on a macro level, has been superseded by the belief that everything is made of fundamental particles or energy repositories which have ephemeral existence.

That said, it does not alter your argument. Both men and stones are made of the same stuff, or better, made of the same no-stuff.

The difference appears to be in the level of 'consciousness' in stones versus humans. Consciousness has three main components: energy/power, knowledge/wisdom, and will.

Could you, with your knowledge of haqaaiq, relate the concept of consciousness to the deeni concept of 'aashir-e-mudabbir'?

[anajmi]

My opinion is that there is no argument that can be advanced from 'reason' that would prove that God exists.

95% of the people on earth who believe in God in one form or another have a completely different opinion. They have enough enough "reason" to believe in the existence of God.

Besides, logically, if there is exactly a fifty percent chance that God exists, since no one has been able to prove otherwise, that in itself is "reason" enough to believe in God, at least for those that are smart enough.

[Mubarak]

Dear Respected Brother Mr. Danish,

On a lighter note, once in some Moharram Majlis Janab Asghar Ali Jawriya Wala has said the following poetry (I adopted in your case):

"Mitti ke putle (idol) ko Jesus bana rakha hai,
Makhkhi to jisse udti nahi aur udane ke liye Father betha rakha hai."

[accountability]

Porous: thankyou again. Only you could elobrate so lightly yet so full of wisdom. I totally agree with you, that religious bigotry is the root cause of all our human problem. The problem starts, When religions claim, that theirs is the only true version, and they start killing in its name, with little authencity for their truth.