I'm posting on the forum after a long time.
Reading some posts from GM bhai and some others have left me a little troubled. I sense, you are still hopeful of a revival in fortunes for the Bohra community. I think it's not just unlikely but it's an impossibility. The best that can now happen, is folks who have their wits about them, take simple steps towards leading a life free from the oppression and corruption, rather than thinking of a revolution that will change the community altogether.
I think the community is never going to change and we are never going to be back to the so called golden days. For a fact, we do not even know if those golden days existed. Perhaps there were no forums to document and expose oppression and corruption in earlier times.
Religion in its entirety is a way of life, not life in its entirety. I mean no offence to the believers, all I am trying to say is adopt all the good that you se in whatever religion(s) you see practiced around you, don't participate in the evil and when you can curb it, try to. But don't cross the line and argue logic to the fanatics. You are only going to spoil human relationships that are far more significant than any religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs promise peace in afterlife, don't ruin your present life arguing about them!
None of us have the choice to choose what religion/creed/caste /community we are born into. If u believe that an Almighty power did create you, then you should also believe that He has also created all the others who are born into various other religions. The only thing He didn't create was the religion itself.
I apologize in advance if the post reads disrespectful or irrelevant to any person. My sincere hope is to see this forum become a source of relief, where some positive advice is presented to the troubled. Right now there's a lot of hatred, and focus on pointing errors, instead of an attempt to make Bohras Progressive.
Is reform possible?
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AgnosticIndian
- Posts: 446
- Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 6:10 am
Is reform possible?
Well said mate.
I have said on this many times that the so called progressives are actually regressive totally influenced by Wahabi thought. Probably because there are a lot of Pakistanis here.
All we hear from them is Shirk & Bidaat & what not which is what extremists talk about. The revolution these people talk about is not in overthrowing the Dai & their oppressive ways they want Bohras to move to a puritanical version of Islam. Indian Muslims over the years more so Sufi version was dominant. General trend actually. Petrol dollars influencing the narrative
I have said on this many times that the so called progressives are actually regressive totally influenced by Wahabi thought. Probably because there are a lot of Pakistanis here.
All we hear from them is Shirk & Bidaat & what not which is what extremists talk about. The revolution these people talk about is not in overthrowing the Dai & their oppressive ways they want Bohras to move to a puritanical version of Islam. Indian Muslims over the years more so Sufi version was dominant. General trend actually. Petrol dollars influencing the narrative
notruthinreligion wrote:I'm posting on the forum after a long time.
Reading some posts from GM bhai and some others have left me a little troubled. I sense, you are still hopeful of a revival in fortunes for the Bohra community. I think it's not just unlikely but it's an impossibility. The best that can now happen, is folks who have their wits about them, take simple steps towards leading a life free from the oppression and corruption, rather than thinking of a revolution that will change the community altogether.
I think the community is never going to change and we are never going to be back to the so called golden days. For a fact, we do not even know if those golden days existed. Perhaps there were no forums to document and expose oppression and corruption in earlier times.
Religion in its entirety is a way of life, not life in its entirety. I mean no offence to the believers, all I am trying to say is adopt all the good that you se in whatever religion(s) you see practiced around you, don't participate in the evil and when you can curb it, try to. But don't cross the line and argue logic to the fanatics. You are only going to spoil human relationships that are far more significant than any religious beliefs. Your religious beliefs promise peace in afterlife, don't ruin your present life arguing about them!
None of us have the choice to choose what religion/creed/caste /community we are born into. If u believe that an Almighty power did create you, then you should also believe that He has also created all the others who are born into various other religions. The only thing He didn't create was the religion itself.
I apologize in advance if the post reads disrespectful or irrelevant to any person. My sincere hope is to see this forum become a source of relief, where some positive advice is presented to the troubled. Right now there's a lot of hatred, and focus on pointing errors, instead of an attempt to make Bohras Progressive.
Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court
notruthinreligion,
On one hand you say
On one hand you say
and then on the other hand you sayI sense, you are still hopeful of a revival in fortunes for the Bohra community. I think it's not just unlikely but it's an impossibility.
Well, if bohras becoming progressive is an impossibility, then let us just point out the errors in their ways and be happy about the fact that we are not committing those errors. If you are still hopeful of making bohras progressive, then participate more. But, you've already said that that is an impossibility right?Right now there's a lot of hatred, and focus on pointing errors, instead of an attempt to make Bohras Progressive.
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notruthinreligion
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:42 am
Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court
In my opinion, the majority of the Bohra community will continue to worship the Dai and will be oblivious to any events or evidence against him and his order. Their progression and prosperity lies in conforming with the Dai, Its their belief and they are entitled to it.anajmi wrote:notruthinreligion,
On one hand you sayand then on the other hand you sayI sense, you are still hopeful of a revival in fortunes for the Bohra community. I think it's not just unlikely but it's an impossibility.Well, if bohras becoming progressive is an impossibility, then let us just point out the errors in their ways and be happy about the fact that we are not committing those errors. If you are still hopeful of making bohras progressive, then participate more. But, you've already said that that is an impossibility right?Right now there's a lot of hatred, and focus on pointing errors, instead of an attempt to make Bohras Progressive.
Like you rightly mentioned, we should participate more and do so in a constructive manner. We should help those oppressed, help them lookup solutions, instead of pointing errors. Trying to point out errors and enforcing beliefs on those who are happy with the Status Quo is a moot exercise and only results in disrupting one's own peace.
Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court
AgnosticIndian wrote:Well said mate.
I have said on this many times that the so called progressives are actually regressive totally influenced by Wahabi thought. Probably because there are a lot of Pakistanis here.
All we hear from them is Shirk & Bidaat & what not which is what extremists talk about. The revolution these people talk about is not in overthrowing the Dai & their oppressive ways they want Bohras to move to a puritanical version of Islam. Indian Muslims over the years more so Sufi version was dominant. General trend actually. Petrol dollars influencing the narrative
I will disagree with you on this point AI.
I dont think that the reformists are regressive, nor do i agree that that they are totally influenced by Wahabi thought. there are a few nutcases here who scream shirk and bidaat at the drop of a hat. but those are best left alone.
What they are however, and this is purely my opinion, drifted away from what the original goal of reform was.
from wanting to bring about a change in the community, which is where the movement has its root, they have unfortunately gone to become a group of people who just sit here and mock the faith and the only reason for this, i see, is that MOST of the participants here did not suffer the pains. Most participants here have merely become disenchanted with the current state of things and have become cynical. People like Insaf saab, Engineer Saab, humsafar bhai and my good friend Birader and some of the elders have actually faced the wrath of the Kothar, but most others have just become tired of the way things are run and hence sit here and bemoan the good old days and sling mud everyday at everything
im not trying to paint all reformists with the same brush. no doubt there are some like ozdundee (FGM) and Bohraji (poverty in ahmedabad) who have actually done something concrete, but they are very few and far between
Re: Is reform possible?
I agree that at this point, reforming the main-stream Bohra community (i.e. the one led by Dawedar Mr. Muffy Saifuddin (DMMS)) is impossible. The harm is irreparable, and can not be undone easily, or at all. Often, one can not mend a glass which has broken into a thousand pieces. It will never be the same again.
However, that is not a reason for despair. In general, great social changes must occur every few hundred years, and even greater changes every few thousand. We see that in the cyclic nature of religious communities, as well as the rise and fall of various political ideologies. Communism is now a discredited ideology, and even China, on the surface a communist country, actually only survives due to capitalistic policies.
In the same way, what we are witnessing now is the formation of a new group (Fatemi Dawaat) which brings with it new and fresh principles of openness, transparency and intellectual vigor. It is still too early to say if the movement will grow or not, but the fact that this schism has occurred is natural and to be expected. The corruption among the Muffadali Bohras leadership is so great that it is impossible to fix. The only option is to break away and start fresh. Meanwhile, the Muffadali Bohras will continue on a path in which the priests will have more and more wealth and power, more and more control over peoples lives. Abdes will complain but won't do anything as they are getting habituated to this type of life, however detrimental it seems to people from outside. It is a form of Stockholm Syndrome on a massive scale. Abdes love their Master and his mafia gang of Shehzadas, Amils and other thugs and dacoits. Its very difficult for them to break out, perhaps impossible.
The official reform movement has also failed. For more than one reason. First, the continued success of the reform movement needs viable secular and religious leadership. I do not see this, and, on the contrary, I see a great decline in both, now that stalwarts like Dr. Engineer have passed away, and the early leaders are aging and ineffective. The religious aspects are also declining. The influence of those who deny that naas happened on S. Yusuf Najmuddin is still great, and it has been a huge impediment to progress. Looking the literature they have put out on this, one sees the staleness, the insipidness and the total ineffectiveness of their ideas. In their own words, they are like women of the house who are sitting in the corner now that the man of the house has died. Yet, they do not realize that if someone or something does not keep injecting fresh vigor into the system, it will soon become moribund, a walking zombie with no life or freshness. Also, to state a truism, women can work too.
As I have stated before, the Fatemi Dawaat movement has done a lot in two years. Making materials available openly without need for raaza or interference of mullahs is a very big first step. Most bohras do not understand Arabic, and increasingly find it hard to read dawaat-ni-zaaban or Gujrathi. Hence, making the materials available in English is a very big deal. Further, making list of all the miqaats and systemizing the amal for those days makes it easier for people to follow and do the needful, even at home, without the intervention of mullahs. The live transmission and use of Youtube for asharaa waaz and audio materials for other occasions is unprecedented. The level of openness is astounding, and could not have been imagined a few years ago. Further, scholarship is encouraged and good examples are being provided by the inner circle of the movement themselves. This is classically what the Ismailis have done in times of distress, leading to great intellectual vigor and flowering of new ideas and principles.
However, it is still too early to say. At present, the Fatemi Dawaat movement is very young and perhaps in danger of vanishing in a generation. The key step, which the Fatimids have not yet taken are two fold: first, to extend the group of influential people to non-family members of the da'i, and second, to secure physical places of worship and congregation. Both take time, but without it, the growth of the movement will be limited.
I personally consider myself to be a Fatemi, and urge others to identify as so. There is no need at present to do anything except self-identify, perhaps in secret, and become proficient in religion and well as in secular matters. The key step should be to get to a point where you do not need help from a mullah to live a religiously fulfilling life. Also, excelling in your daily life, in business or job, is important. One can only lead by example, and it is important to excel at whatever path one choose in ones life. No job is lowly or inconsequential, but one must take pride and do it well. Lets look at the prophet, who was an excellent businessman during the first half of his life, a great secular and religious leader later, inspiring thousands to his cause. Lets look at Ali, who was unmatched in eloquence and intellectual vigor, but also a feared warrior and a great leader. Lets look at the various imams and early dua'ts who combined within them both intellectual vigor as well as concern for secular affairs. As our great aawlia have said, we must excel both in deen as well as duniya.
I urge others not to loose hope. I urge you to join the Fatemi Dawaat movement. Become a Fatemi! I mean, the middle pearl of the Five Pearl Rosary of the Panjataan is the best inspiration we can have in our lives. Her physical being is a profound symbol of deep cosmic mysteries, including and encompassing even the creative process itself. Let her presence be a renewal of your own flagging emotions and let it fill you with vigor. The alternative of the Muffadali Bohras is mind-numbing and intellectually deathly, in addition to being physically and financially stressful. Leave it behind! That is the true way to reform.
However, that is not a reason for despair. In general, great social changes must occur every few hundred years, and even greater changes every few thousand. We see that in the cyclic nature of religious communities, as well as the rise and fall of various political ideologies. Communism is now a discredited ideology, and even China, on the surface a communist country, actually only survives due to capitalistic policies.
In the same way, what we are witnessing now is the formation of a new group (Fatemi Dawaat) which brings with it new and fresh principles of openness, transparency and intellectual vigor. It is still too early to say if the movement will grow or not, but the fact that this schism has occurred is natural and to be expected. The corruption among the Muffadali Bohras leadership is so great that it is impossible to fix. The only option is to break away and start fresh. Meanwhile, the Muffadali Bohras will continue on a path in which the priests will have more and more wealth and power, more and more control over peoples lives. Abdes will complain but won't do anything as they are getting habituated to this type of life, however detrimental it seems to people from outside. It is a form of Stockholm Syndrome on a massive scale. Abdes love their Master and his mafia gang of Shehzadas, Amils and other thugs and dacoits. Its very difficult for them to break out, perhaps impossible.
The official reform movement has also failed. For more than one reason. First, the continued success of the reform movement needs viable secular and religious leadership. I do not see this, and, on the contrary, I see a great decline in both, now that stalwarts like Dr. Engineer have passed away, and the early leaders are aging and ineffective. The religious aspects are also declining. The influence of those who deny that naas happened on S. Yusuf Najmuddin is still great, and it has been a huge impediment to progress. Looking the literature they have put out on this, one sees the staleness, the insipidness and the total ineffectiveness of their ideas. In their own words, they are like women of the house who are sitting in the corner now that the man of the house has died. Yet, they do not realize that if someone or something does not keep injecting fresh vigor into the system, it will soon become moribund, a walking zombie with no life or freshness. Also, to state a truism, women can work too.
As I have stated before, the Fatemi Dawaat movement has done a lot in two years. Making materials available openly without need for raaza or interference of mullahs is a very big first step. Most bohras do not understand Arabic, and increasingly find it hard to read dawaat-ni-zaaban or Gujrathi. Hence, making the materials available in English is a very big deal. Further, making list of all the miqaats and systemizing the amal for those days makes it easier for people to follow and do the needful, even at home, without the intervention of mullahs. The live transmission and use of Youtube for asharaa waaz and audio materials for other occasions is unprecedented. The level of openness is astounding, and could not have been imagined a few years ago. Further, scholarship is encouraged and good examples are being provided by the inner circle of the movement themselves. This is classically what the Ismailis have done in times of distress, leading to great intellectual vigor and flowering of new ideas and principles.
However, it is still too early to say. At present, the Fatemi Dawaat movement is very young and perhaps in danger of vanishing in a generation. The key step, which the Fatimids have not yet taken are two fold: first, to extend the group of influential people to non-family members of the da'i, and second, to secure physical places of worship and congregation. Both take time, but without it, the growth of the movement will be limited.
I personally consider myself to be a Fatemi, and urge others to identify as so. There is no need at present to do anything except self-identify, perhaps in secret, and become proficient in religion and well as in secular matters. The key step should be to get to a point where you do not need help from a mullah to live a religiously fulfilling life. Also, excelling in your daily life, in business or job, is important. One can only lead by example, and it is important to excel at whatever path one choose in ones life. No job is lowly or inconsequential, but one must take pride and do it well. Lets look at the prophet, who was an excellent businessman during the first half of his life, a great secular and religious leader later, inspiring thousands to his cause. Lets look at Ali, who was unmatched in eloquence and intellectual vigor, but also a feared warrior and a great leader. Lets look at the various imams and early dua'ts who combined within them both intellectual vigor as well as concern for secular affairs. As our great aawlia have said, we must excel both in deen as well as duniya.
I urge others not to loose hope. I urge you to join the Fatemi Dawaat movement. Become a Fatemi! I mean, the middle pearl of the Five Pearl Rosary of the Panjataan is the best inspiration we can have in our lives. Her physical being is a profound symbol of deep cosmic mysteries, including and encompassing even the creative process itself. Let her presence be a renewal of your own flagging emotions and let it fill you with vigor. The alternative of the Muffadali Bohras is mind-numbing and intellectually deathly, in addition to being physically and financially stressful. Leave it behind! That is the true way to reform.
Re: Is reform possible?
This thread ought to be renamed "how is reform possible".
It's not a simple yes or no - but an open ended question.
My short
answer to the close-ended question is :
The word "reform" means different things to different people, different things to the same people at different junctures in time and context.
A) For example to the qasre-aali and kothar jameea crowd, it means "Daawat ni dushmani", threat of being annihilated.
B) To the ordinary bohra, it means "those going to hell" because of A)
C) to the udaipuris and other similar reformists - it is simple - call for transparency accountability, and social reforms of doing away with injustice.
D) When thinking hats are put on by anyone - ordinary bohras or the qasre AALI , immediately another thought comes in "I must not think too much - just believe" OR "shaitaan aavi gayo" Or "there is some validity to the questions asked by the udaipuris" OR "here I go again, I don't want to go down this path of shak and shubaahat" Or "look how much the reformists and udaipuris are condemned, and has maulas wrath - I can't be in the same category".
[these and many other thoughts go on, and therefore the punishments churned out by the mafia mentality or Holocaust techniques employed by Hitler for mind control and manipulation effectively compete against not just independent thought, but also gut-wrenching experience from day to day experiences of bullying and threats imposed in the name of "shafeeq bawa". )
As people write and share and discourse and dialogue, concepts of"reform" as " dushman" dissipates and "reform as hope for betterment of the community" emerges.
So yes reform is possible. How?
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
There are no cookie cutter cookbook answers
As someone pointed out, a few people already doing something :
London uprising during this ramadaan
FGM - surveys
Letter writing campaigns etc
FATEMI DAWAT - online presence and ease of access can be construed as the beginnings of transparency
?
?
There's more - ways it's happening
In contrast, SMS machinery continues to escalate their demands and brainwashing by highlighting the concept of "dushman".
It's not a simple yes or no - but an open ended question.
My short
answer to the close-ended question is :The word "reform" means different things to different people, different things to the same people at different junctures in time and context.
A) For example to the qasre-aali and kothar jameea crowd, it means "Daawat ni dushmani", threat of being annihilated.
B) To the ordinary bohra, it means "those going to hell" because of A)
C) to the udaipuris and other similar reformists - it is simple - call for transparency accountability, and social reforms of doing away with injustice.
D) When thinking hats are put on by anyone - ordinary bohras or the qasre AALI , immediately another thought comes in "I must not think too much - just believe" OR "shaitaan aavi gayo" Or "there is some validity to the questions asked by the udaipuris" OR "here I go again, I don't want to go down this path of shak and shubaahat" Or "look how much the reformists and udaipuris are condemned, and has maulas wrath - I can't be in the same category".
[these and many other thoughts go on, and therefore the punishments churned out by the mafia mentality or Holocaust techniques employed by Hitler for mind control and manipulation effectively compete against not just independent thought, but also gut-wrenching experience from day to day experiences of bullying and threats imposed in the name of "shafeeq bawa". )
As people write and share and discourse and dialogue, concepts of"reform" as " dushman" dissipates and "reform as hope for betterment of the community" emerges.
So yes reform is possible. How?
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
There are no cookie cutter cookbook answers
As someone pointed out, a few people already doing something :
London uprising during this ramadaan
FGM - surveys
Letter writing campaigns etc
FATEMI DAWAT - online presence and ease of access can be construed as the beginnings of transparency
?
?
There's more - ways it's happening
In contrast, SMS machinery continues to escalate their demands and brainwashing by highlighting the concept of "dushman".