Question for the Reformists

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam; Your answers as usual are pathetic! You seem to justify "According to Quran" whenever it suits you! Although you never mention which ayat ofcourse just like Syedna's vaez -Am I not supposed to question your source ? ofcourse not! Your source is your Dai's word which is final & binding! And according to you now Bohras are second class citizen in the country they live in- & that contradicts your Syedna"s teaching that you should abide by the laws of the country you iive in- I assume all the Bohras shoud ask who they should vote in the next presidential election without exrcising their individual birth right?Qiyam- You know this is called SLAVERY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Muslim First]

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Br qiyam

AS

Khums means 1/5 th. What is Khums in Bohra Fiqh?

I have posted a new topic "Zakah & Khums" at : http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/cgibin/UB ... 1;t=001022

I could find only that Khums taxes were related to war booty or finder of treasure or digging of minerals.

On what income Bohras pay Khumas?

Wasalaam

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[Muslim First]

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Br Qiyam

Certain people, though well-off, can still receive zakah:

Abu Sa'id reported that the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said: "Sadaqah is not allowed for the well-off except for the following five: an administrator of zakah, a purchaser of zakah holdings, a debtor, a warrior in the cause of Allah, or a person who is given a present (Najwa) by the needy (miskeen) from what the latter had been granted as zakah." This is related by Ahmad, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, and al-Hakim. The latter grades the preceding hadith as sound according to the criteria of Muslim and al-Bukhari.

My observation is that Kothat fits into catogary of Administrator of Zakah and can keep percentage of Zakah, but they must distribute reminder to seven other eligible catogary. Am I correct in thinking so.

Wasalaam

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[qiyam]

MH,
I have quoted the ayat already...I get tired of reposted them...as though they never were. I don't,like yourself, just say things. Note in the last post...I said the Quran doesn't say something. That means its not in the Quran.

"You know this is called SLAVERY"
-Remember, the Prophet said he has more right over us than overselves. That means we are in addition to abd'Allah, but abd'Muhammad, and also abd'Imam az'Zaman.

[Muslim]

Based on what says all the money Sayedna collects should ALL go to the community. The Quran doesn't say this...nor did the Prophet. Were the Imams and other Dais not living in palaces?

If the Prophet had followed Sayedna's path and kept part of the money for himself, he would have been extremely rich when he died. But instead he only left very few personal possessions and a small piece of land. You do the math.

And regarding some Imams living in palaces, remember that this happened at a time when Fatimid Egypt was extremely prosperous to the extent that the mainly Sunni population in general had no quarrels with being ruled over by a Shiite leader because he took care of their welfare. For your ridiculous comparison, the present dai, is NOT infallible, NOT in a position of political leadership, and most importantly does NOT care about the welfare of the community.

"Obviously he is not, this means he has other sources of income - illegitimate and accountable."
--Again based on what are his sources of income illegitimate? Accountable to who and based on what does he need to be accountable to you?

Based on the various practices that he and his regime have instituted and that many Bohras including myself have experienced. Based on the fact that many of the "contributions" that you claim are in theory voluntary are in actual fact compulsory and failure to pay could result in baraat. Based on the fact that when the dai last paid an Ashara visit to my home town, each household was was REQUIRED to register a number of "units" to pay - a unit being an absolute minimum denomination - even though nobody came to ask whether we wanted the circus to come in the first place. Based on the fact that there are minimum salaam amounts REQUIRED to be paid especially for higher ranking clergy and sometimes they open the envelope in front of you to check you have enough in there. Based on the fact that najwa to the syedna is actually dictated by his aides and the main jamaat members are REQUIRED to somehow cough up the dictated amounts. Based on the fact that when syedna visits a home, again his aides REQUIRE you to pay a minimum najwa amount.

Syedna is no god - he and his crew are accountable to a host of people. As a citizen, he is accountable to his government and subject to the laws of the land and the courts. He is accountable to the foreign governments in whose countries he has registered "charities" - which is the reason why the Charity Commission UK opened an enquiry and forced him to pay back some of the money and submit proper accounts. According to you Syedna should have told the commission that he is the Dai, so he is not accountable to them. And most importantly he will be accountable to Allah, not very far in the future.

No matter how you cut and slice the shariah, it gives no authority to Sayedna to tell people how to vote in an election of a secular country."
--Two points...Sayedna told his followers..not everyone else and second, we as bohras are not secular/religious separately. Islam applies to both for the muslims.

Yes, Islam applies to both for Muslims - except the fallible Syedna isn't "applying" any Islam when he directs his followers vote for a certain political candidate - but actually abusing his religious authority for political gain. Maybe Syedna should listen to his own advice and obey the laws of the land.

"be just, humble and fair, remember your duty towards the community, towards the poor and destitute, do not hoard money, spend it in the way of Allah..."
--name one quality you've listed that you don't have proof for. How many leaders go to every corner of the world to make dua and teach their followers...at this old an age?

It's one thing being a prolific world hunter-traveller wearing neat white clothes accumulating najwas with many a dua to dispense - it's another to actually make a difference to the people he claims to care about. The problem isn't just him - its the whole regime, institutionalized corruption, but as they say fish rots from the head.

[muminfirst]

Mr. Muslim:

Have some fear of Allah when you talk so much nonsense. Do you even beleive in Allah ? If so, you would not be saying such things about his representative on Earth.

In this month of Ramadan - Do Istikfaar and maybe you might be saved.

Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Saheb... Zindabad.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Somehow other all abde syednas particularly Qiyam seem to be using this equation which was used for his unsucccessful defense by Syedna Taher Saifuddin in Chandabhai Galla case is ----Dai=imam=prophet mohd=allah ---so mathematically dai=allah--What a shame when one compares himself to the position of god!

[Admin]

Here is a picture of Sayedna Saheb meeting Narendra Modi, Chief Minister of Gujarat. Picture supplied by S.Insaf.

[sinsaf]

This picture of Sayedna Saheb meeting and blessing Narendra Modi is from Kothar's magazine 'Badre Muneer, of current month of Ramazan 1424 Hij. on page 51.
The same photo has appeared in local Gujarat Newspapers of 2nd Oct. 2003, obliviously supplied by Kothar.

[MOHD HUSSAIN]

Br Qiyam; Somehow other all abde Syednas disppear when we supply them the proof-This appeared in the Kothari News paper so we did not computer generate it either! Any more proofs?

[abdullah]

Salaam All
Brethren just A simple question ???

What’s Wrong Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Meets Narendra Modi????

My understanding of the conventional Bohra(s) is, there leader can never be wrong so why reformists think otherwise, there might be a possiblity of some kind of HIKMAT!!

[muminfirst]

That is absolutely correct. All of Moula's actions are based ion HIKMAT.

Je eh kare, Haq che sarasar.
Samjhu to Samjhu, Na Samjhu na Samjho

When will you Reformists learn? Moula has dedicated his entire life to the Khidmat of Mumeneen. His doors are still open... Hopefully you get taufeeq and leave your munafiq ways behind.

[Humsafar]

Originally posted by abdullah:

What’s Wrong Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Meets Narendra Modi????

It's like a Jewish leader meeting Hitler after the Holocaust. If you think that's not wrong, then I don't know what is.

Hikmat?? My left foot.

[Average Bohra]

What’s Wrong Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Meets Narendra Modi????

Kissy Hand....kissy Feet...Kadam bosi...smooch smooch.....salaaam....pay for namaz space and $$$$$

NOTHING ! Absolutely friggin' nothing !

All of Moula's actions are based ion HIKMAT.

Hikmat...yes ...yes...Kissy Hand....kissy Feet...Kadam bosi...smooch smooch.....salaaam....pay for namaz space and $$$$$.....

Abde Mumin First...you are smart !

[muminfirst]

Obviously, you do not understand the meaning of HIKMAT. This comes from faith and belief. Since you'll have sold yourselves to Asger Engineer Iblis (Shaitaan) all you can do is ridicule.

Remember, Allah is watching and taking count of all our actions. This is the month of Ramadan, Repent and ask for forgiveness and leave your Munafiq ways. You might be spared.

Salaams:

[porus]

Originally posted by Mumin First:
Obviously, you do not understand the meaning of HIKMAT. This comes from faith and belief.

I do.

Hikmat=Wisdom

Most people become wise after being knocked about in the University of Life. They learn the wisdom the hard way.

But if you are a Mumin, you learn hikmat just by admiring Sayedna. You wouldn't really know the wisdom behind all Sayedna's actions but you can be sure they are wise like consorting with the Butcher of Gujarat.

So, Mumin tells us what hikmat is. It is whatever Sayedna does. I'll be stumped if I or any dawoodi knew.

Of course, there is the baatin version of hikmat. It is not meant for ordinary Mumin. But let me let you in on a secret. There really is no such thing. I know. I learnt it at the feet of a very senior Dawoodi. When you reach higher darajaat, you will be taught just to tell those lower down that there is great hikmat in everything Sayedna and his family does. You would not know what it is, really. For that you have to get higher in darajaat. You climb the darjaat when you are able to convince more and more dawoodis that there is hikmat in everything. And ad infinitum, or shall I say "ta roze qiyamat".

So keep saying that there is "hikmat" and all will be well. You might even be nominated to be a Sheikh, Amil, bhaisaheb and even shahzada. Only a small step away from being the Dai himself.

[Muddai]

So keep saying that there is "hikmat" and all will be well. You might even be nominated to be a Sheikh, Amil, bhaisaheb and even shahzada. Only a small step away from being the Dai himself.

Alas, a simple nomination won't be enough. Mumin First will need to dole out some cash in addition to mindlessly reciting <I>Moula's actions are based on HIKMAT</I>. This cash will then be classified as a <I>gift</I> for income tax purposes, separate from Jamaat revenues, which are also used to augment these so-called gifts.

In all fairness to Mumin First, he doesn’t claim to have any Hikmat, he simply states that <I>Moula's actions are based on HIKMAT</I>, but then if he doesn’t have any, why trust his opinion of who he thinks has Hikmat ?

[muminfirst]

I keep forgetting, most of the folks on this site have no faith and are the less fortunate ones. You do not get the blessings of Dai Zamaan. And that is what manifests in all the posts out here.

This is my humble effort to make you'll see the light. Looks like there is a lot of darkness.

Miles to go before you sleep....

[porus]

Originally posted by Mumin First:
....most of the folks on this site have no faith and are the less fortunate ones. You do not get the blessings of Dai Zamaan....

How humble of the Dai not to bless the "less fortunate ones"!

It is a great advance on Jesus Christ, who sought forgiveness for those who were crucifying him. Jesus even blessed sinners, the poor, the down-trodden, the hungry and stubborn villains. Not very productive! Jesus should have consorted with Pontius Pilate like the Jewish Elders.

Originally posted by Mumin First:
This is my humble effort to make you'll see the light. Looks like there is a lot of darkness.

I wonder why Mumin First does not see the hikmat of the Dai and forswear making this great mass of the "unblessed" see the light. Dear Mumin, do not forget to pretend to see the hikmat in Dai's action. If he does not bless those who come to this site (and that includes you), why are you going against his actions and seek to enlighten the very same "unblessed" ones?

[jinx]

Originally posted by abdullah:
Salaam All
Brethren just A simple question ???

What’s Wrong Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin Meets Narendra Modi????

My understanding of the conventional Bohra(s) is, there leader can never be wrong so why reformists think otherwise, there might be a possiblity of some kind of HIKMAT!!

Oh Now I see the hikmat..

Tips on Slaughtering Muslim of Gujrat 101