Taher Fakhrudin and related topics

[ajamali]

i went to watch the speech after the discussion here. Pretty cool. Showed an Egyptian friend at work, he said he sounded like an Egyptian speaker "not like Hindi." "Very formal" he said....
http://youtu.be/MB9Y0Hiu6oI

I kinda like this new Moula of the Qutbis. Young and dynamic. Feeling optimistic for them.....and us.....!!!!

[JC]

The fundamental issue is 'ME' and 'I' ............

I am the Maula, you HAVE to accept in what I say and do; it is my way or high way ........... this is not acceptable.

The concept of WE and US should be brought in, it should be 'inclusive'. There should be accountability and transparency. These are not the days of theocracy. There should be healthy debate, criticism should be accepted and dissent tolerated.

Religion never meant to divide, yet today religion is a great dividing force

[subcon111]

I think he is reading from a script. Regardless, the approach is different and refreshing.

[AgnosticIndian]

I think he is reading from a script. Regardless, the approach is different and refreshing.

Most likely he is reading from a TelePrompTer. His eyes are fixed in one direction

[dal-chaval-palidu]

Cross posting a post I made under another topic

Hee hee. I still remember the MS speech on the profound topic of Surat and Muniras.....I think it went something like this..."Surat maa ghani Munira che....Tamey sagla jaantaj haso koi Munira ne. Jano cho ne Munira ne mumineen. Mein bhi janu chu kai ek Munira ne je Surat maa rahey che...".....W-T-F..., and I mean WTF, not some person

Missed this one. Does anybody have a link or anything ?? What was the context in which this was said ..

[Ozdundee]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11014&p=170667#p170667

continuation of debate from previous topic

Visual presentation is everything.

1,500,000,000 Muslims of Shia and Sunni agree on sujuds principles. I don't write history nor change ideology.

Secondly why is it so necessary to prostrate and confuse the faith. Leave somethings totally for Allah so their is no confusion no question. one does not get Sawab for prostrating and it is so close to shirk. Ask yourself how careful are you when choosing halal food, perfume with alcohol, water purity for wuzu, direction of kibla, timing for iftar, yet you ask me why I rely on hadith when giving the same level of concern for purity when worshiping my Creator. This has been debated endlessly.

The point I was making STF did not need the prostration to win hearts and minds. But by sticking to practises that provoke concerns amongst Muslims , reformists and people who have decent knowledge causes schism and rift and does not help his dawat or unity. I have not mentioned help from Allah that he seriously needs to progress his cause.

Things like sujuds, misaq, transparency are core and does not affect authority. Western democracies are as powerful with decentealised control, eg prime ministers and transparency. The fear of testing loyalty at every second is old school and for the insecure.

This leaves STF and his mission at cross roads is he here to return the community to the right path towards Islam or continue the drift that was started years ago that Bohras became so isolated from mainstream Islam and mixed things up big time. If this is a slight flavour to SMS , some of us will have to seek options as it is not good enough.

[mustafazr]

Thank you for your response, Ozdundee. Let me rebuke your comments in the order you presented them.

1,500,000,000 Muslims of Shia and Sunni agree on sujuds principles. I don't write history nor change ideology.

Haqq is not about numbers, nor is it about the historical majority. Sunnis believe Abu Bakr was the successor to Rasulullah, yet we are Shias and categorically reject it. Christians, which dwarf the worldwide Muslim population, believe Eesa Nabi to be son of God, yet we are Muslims, believe in Tawheed and categorically reject it. Time and again, history has shown that numbers is a poor indicator of where truth lies, and today, we are reliving that history in Dawat.

Secondly why is it so necessary to prostrate and confuse the faith. Leave somethings totally for Allah so their is no confusion no question. one does not get Sawab for prostrating and it is so close to shirk. Ask yourself how careful are you when choosing halal food, perfume with alcohol, water purity for wuzu, direction of kibla, timing for iftar, yet you ask me why I rely on hadith when giving the same level of concern for purity when worshiping my Creator. This has been debated endlessly.

There is no confusion. Sajda equates Ta'at (obedience). It does not equate worship. No Imam and no Dai has demanded mumineen worship him. But the Quran has declared that Ta'at is wajib, for Allah, Rasul and Ulil Amr, which in Ismaili Shia interpretation is the Imam, and in Satr, the Dai. How do you know that there is no sawab? The Quran states Allah ordered Firishta to give sajdo to Adam, did Allah do so knowing there was no gain for Firishta in this act? No purity in ibaadat to Allah is lost by this act of obedience to Waliullah, if that was the case, why would Allah have ordered Firishta to do so? I did not ask why you rely on hadith and to prove its authenticity, I asked why you think it is logical to go against the injunctions of the Quran. You are right, this has been debated endlessly yet it was brought up by you and others upon seeing this waaz. Moulana Taher TUS himself has addressed this in his past waaz.

The point I was making STF did not need the prostration to win hearts and minds. But by sticking to practises that provoke concerns amongst Muslims , reformists and people who have decent knowledge causes schism and rift and does not help his dawat or unity. I have not mentioned help from Allah that he seriously needs to progress his cause.

Things like sujuds, misaq, transparency are core and does not affect authority. Western democracies are as powerful with decentealised control, eg prime ministers and transparency. The fear of testing loyalty at every second is old school and for the insecure.

This leaves STF and his mission at cross roads is he here to return the community to the right path towards Islam or continue the drift that was started years ago that Bohras became so isolated from mainstream Islam and mixed things up big time. If this is a slight flavour to SMS , some of us will have to seek options as it is not good enough.

The Dai is not here to win a popularity constant, he is here to do Dawat as per Haqq, as per Duat Salefeen have done so in the past. As Moulana TUS stated in the waaz, Ameerul Mumineen AS has stated that so what if I am one on Haqq, as long as I am on Haqq. Misaq and Ta'at are core tenets to Shia and Ismaili faith, which we are part of. Transparency is not conflated with these tenets, transparency can and does exist within faithful members of the community, along with utmost obedience to the Dai. Dawat-ul-Haq is not a democracy, the leader is not chosen by people but by Allah, that is a core part of our faith.

[humanbeing]

The Dai is not here to win a popularity constant, he is here to do Dawat as per Haqq, as per Duat Salefeen have done so in the past. As Moulana TUS stated in the waaz, Ameerul Mumineen AS has stated that so what if I am one on Haqq, as long as I am on Haqq. Misaq and Ta'at are core tenets to Shia and Ismaili faith, which we are part of. Transparency is not conflated with these tenets, transparency can and does exist within faithful members of the community, along with utmost obedience to the Dai. Dawat-ul-Haq is not a democracy, the leader is not chosen by people but by Allah, that is a core part of our faith.

The way these Kothari families are at logger heads with each other, it does seem like a popularity contest. Respect to SKQ kothar as they are low profile, but that could be because of lack of numbers and resources. Playing underdog until they get powerful enough as SMS kothar.

Misaaq and Ta’at both could be used for productive purposes, but unfortunately they are a convenient tool in these Kothari camps for mass control. Conveniently; transparency and accountability is sidelined and kept amongst confidantes. How convenient ! all the thieves are accountable to each other waaah !!

When it comes to collecting cash on various accounts, these guys will go all ballistic to mix faith tenets and wordly accounts, but when the tables are turned to show accountability again they dodge stating utmost obedience, trust, faith bullshit. Accountable only to faithful members = thieves like them, who will laugh it off.

[mustafazr]

When it comes to collecting cash on various accounts, these guys will go all ballistic to mix faith tenets and wordly accounts, but when the tables are turned to show accountability again they dodge stating utmost obedience, trust, faith bullshit. Accountable only to faithful members = thieves like them, who will laugh it off.

When has Syedna Qutbuddin's RA (and now Syedna Fakhruddin's TUS) dawat asked you for a single penny in the last 2.5 years? Zakat is mandatory like Salaat is mandatory - out of volition.

On the flip side, Fatemi Dawat has made every possible attempt at transparency. By posting volumes of religious and historical material online in an unprecedented manner, in easy to access English language translation, posting regular bayaans at every miqat, providing court transcripts after every hearing, posting factual news articles regarding the legal battle, making annual reports public regarding the various activities in Dawat and how resources are being allocated, etc.

Please be logical in your crticisims. Dawat is at a critical juncture, blind criticisms are not productive.

[Sufi monk]

the leader is not chosen by people but by Allah

Salaam bhai mustafazr

if you can prove that STF has any contact with Imam uz zaman or he has been chosen by ALLAH, I assure you not just me but more 20 families (at least) will join his dawat right this moment, and believe me all these 20 families are wealthy and powerful enough to shake MS dawat.

STF is good compare to MS, but lets not disillusion our self with (delete) that he is chose by ALLAH and he posses some speciality.

we all know all this claims are gone to gutter in last 3 years of pig fight within dawat.

good luck.

[humanbeing]

better late than never ... "der-aaye-durust-aaye"

Good morning to SKQ camp. so these virtues (Accountability, Transparency, Knowledge sharing, Civil Liberties, No Coercion etc) became central and important since 2.5 years. What about last 50 years of mazoon administration. I mean can someone elaborate what exactly is Job Description of Mazoon ? what was mazoon doing for last 50+ years when his elder brother Dai SMB was not really following the mentioned virtues that SKQ now boast off to be different than SMB/SMS camp.

Ohh I understand, for last 50+ years SKQ was helpless, meek, subdued, opressed and sidelined that he was not able to highlight and raise these virtues and silently, helplessly, sidelinedly, submissively watched, held and enjoyed mazoon rutba.

[kimanumanu]

Bro humanbeing, there comes a time you have to accept that bygones are bygones and start to move on. The way you keep criticizing ex-Mazoon is clear that there is no convincing you otherwise. But he is now gone, as have both Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA. What we are left now are two contenders - SMS and STF and really a clear choice between those two. The SMS folks are a bit like you in that they still cannot let go of their baggage with ex-Mazoon. Time to move on and chart a new course whether it's with SMS or STF.

[Ateka]

[quote="mustafazr"] There is no confusion. Sajda equates Ta'at (obedience). It does not equate worship. No Imam and no Dai has demanded mumineen worship him. But the Quran has declared that Ta'at is wajib, for Allah, Rasul and Ulil Amr, which in Ismaili Shia interpretation is the Imam, and in Satr, the Dai. How do you know that there is no sawab? The Quran states Allah ordered Firishta to give sajdo to Adam, did Allah do so knowing there was no gain for Firishta in this act? No purity in ibaadat to Allah is lost by this act of obedience to Waliullah, if that was the case, why would Allah have ordered Firishta to do so? I did not ask why you rely on hadith and to prove its authenticity, I asked why you think it is logical to go against the injunctions of the Quran. You are right, this has been debated endlessly yet it was brought up by you and others upon seeing this waaz. Moulana Taher TUS himself has addressed this in his past waaz.

Salaam, Please if I may take the opportunity, not to rebuke, but correct your comments brother Mustafazr.

Prostrating is of two kinds:

It may an act of veneration and drawing closer to the one to whom one prostrates. This kind of prostration is worship, and should only be done for Allaah, according to the laws of the Prophets.

The second type is a kind of greeting and honouring a person. This is the kind of prostration which Allaah commanded the angels to do in the case of Adam, so they prostrated to him as an act of honouring him. It was an act of worship towards Allaah on their part, because they were obeying His command to prostrate to Adam.

The prostration of Yusuf's parents and brothers was also a prostration of greeting and honouring, which was permissible according to the law (of Allaah) at that time. But according to the sharee’ah brought by the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), it is not permissible to prostrate to anyone at all except Allaah.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade Mu’aadh to prostrate to him when he (Mu’aadh) said that the People of the Book prostrated to the great ones among them, Rasul mentioned that I were to have commanded anyone to prostrate to anyone else, I would have commanded women to prostrate to their husbands.”The prohibition in this sharee’ah against prostrating to anyone at all except Allaah is an aspect of its perfection in achieving true Tawheed. It is the perfect sharee’ah whose perfection is manifested in all its rulings. Allaah mentions in the Quran (interpretation of the meaning):

“This day, I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion” [al-Maa’idah 5:3]

So please let us all follow the Quran and the teachings of Allah instead of relying on the whims and fancies of any human. Remember no one has the power to take you to Jannah except your own deeds.

[humanbeing]

Bro humanbeing, there comes a time you have to accept that bygones are bygones and start to move on. The way you keep criticizing ex-Mazoon is clear that there is no convincing you otherwise. But he is now gone, as have both Syedna Taher Saifuddin RA and Syedna Mohammed Burhanuddin RA. What we are left now are two contenders - SMS and STF and really a clear choice between those two. The SMS folks are a bit like you in that they still cannot let go of their baggage with ex-Mazoon. Time to move on and chart a new course whether it's with SMS or STF.

Bro
My apologies for beating the same drum. As I mentioned “better late than never” It is a welcome change to see these reforms coming through. ok, Let bygones be bygones, we can move on, there is no other option. I would rely on kothari’s past actions to see where they are leading in the future. STF could be a great guy. Lets see how it goes through these times.
I had asked earlier, how does SKQ camp treat things like. Qadambosi, Deedar, Ziyafats, mafsusisyet, kadam, raza etc. how are they different from SMS/SMB camp.
Is this humility due to lack of numbers and resources or is it inherent character ! because this inherent character was missing just few years ago. The catalyst of this changed behavior is lack of nuss on SKQ ? it is not rocket science = hikmat ! to figure out such humble reforms from SKQ / STF camp !

[kimanumanu]

Bro humanbeing, my own personal view is that I am willing to give benefit of doubt to SKQ camp. As I mentioned before, I am basing this on the now well known fact that SKQ was really sidelined during Syedna Burhanuddin RA's era. SMS himself very publicly announced in Ashara waaz that SKQ was a "dushman" for past 25 years. Every opportunity they get at gatherings since wafaat of SMB RA, they keep harping about how SKQ was against SMB, how he kept doing things different from others, etc - I am very surprised you are completely ignoring these facts that even SMS side freely admits and still keep criticizing SKQ. That's why I say that in that sense you are no different from SMS side because you are doing the same thing - villifying SKQ without him, especially now that he is gone, having no way of defending himself. For the 2 years that he was alive, he did his best to convey his message to the masses but as STF mentioned in his waaz yesterday, the brain-washing from SMS is so great that people simply say "there is no need to listen/watch anything now as everything has been clarified already"! And this is the real challenge now - people see with their own eyes that they celebrated with fireworks and burned an effigy yet they just remain silent or willing participants. It depresses me seeing our community in this state and this is why I succumb at times and use the term Dawoodi Hindus because I honestly feel we are regressing rather than progressing as a community.

[Ozdundee]

Apologies but the issue at hand are STF actions with regards to sujuds preformed to him , and iam not statting he demanded it, but condoned it and dId not stop it. It may be OK for 500,000 , not all bohras , not to me or 1,500,000,000 Muslims, note I have excluded 100,000,000 to account for unknown sects out there who may be doing it or don't see an issue.

Please do not discuss SKQ or SMB . They are gone .

We should focus on SMS and STF, both condone sajada to them. I have heard stories of misaq and hesitancy for transparency but don't have first hand facts so will remain silent.

STF duty as A dā‘ī is thus a person who invites people to understand Islam through dialogue, not unlike the Islamic equivalent of a missionary inviting people to the faith, prayer and manner of Islamic life. I have pointed an issue with his manner to one aspect only!

regarding your assertion we accept everything via obedience, why would we be called reformists if we obeyed blindly ,

[humanbeing]

Bro Kinaumanu

fair, not to hold SKQ wrong. SMS is out of discussion at the moment as his tactics are beyond repair, he is forsaken. A glimmer of hope seems to be STF, as fresh, new breath of air with no opressive, helpless history to defend upon. a product of 21st century, modernly educated. need to know what are his stand on various things I listed. how does his fatimi dawat treat, sujood, qadambosi, ziyafat, deedar, kadam etc etc .. in short various ways of obedience and total submission, which eventually leading to same corrupt cycle of non-accountability, transparency etc. where is the humility ? in Kothari circles, humility is mere lip service and hogwash to fool gullible bohras.


If SMS is using political clout, loud noisy fanfare, hate campaign to entertain and deceive abdes to remain in the clan, SKQ, STF camp could be using holier than thou an old product in new packaging of austerity, humility and transparency until .. until a strong number, resource and clout is achieved. Inspite of low numbers, fatimi daawat is continuing with rules and rituals of SMB which are discussion points of corruption in the community. SKQ and SMb are gone .. but they leave behind legacy and guidelines that has lead to creation of such forums, discomfort amongst free thinkers and reformists, schism and isolation. How does STF offer a different bohra community ? on basis of dignity for commoners. Do commoners still have to line up for feet kissing, shell out a ransom for ziyafats, convert deedar into some sort of paganic worship, orchestrated maatam, rituatlistic sujood etc etc.


Financial accountability is definitely important, but equally important is how much of hogwash and dramabazi is STF ready to let go. Can he stop making rova-jevu-moo and practice actual and honest gam-e-hussein. Can he lead the community in austerity, humility and decent comfort.

[mustafazr]

Why don't you watch the waaz for yourself to find out?

[TaherH21]

To those who say Sajda is not part of our faith, obedience to the Imam and his Dai is obedience to God. They are the best of God's servants and the best of God's worshipers:

Example of Maulana Salman al Farsi RA prostrating before Rasulullah SAW:

"It has been accounted from Salmaan ul-Farsi (ra) that once upon a time, on seeing Rasoolullaah (saws) he prostrated. When people saw him prostrating, they told, ‘O Aba Abdallaah Salmaan ul-Farsi (ra), why did you prostate on seeing Rasoolullaah (saws)? He is a human like us and you should not prostrate to anyone except Allaah. On hearing the arguments of people, Salmaan ul-Farsi (ra) replied, ‘I prostrated to the Noor which is evident on the forehead of Rasoolullaah (saws) and that Noor is the Noor of Imaamat." (http://www.alavibohra.org/Ismailism%20a ... tonism.htm)

Example of people kissing the feet of Rasulullah SAW:

Narrated al-Wazi' ibn Zari': Umm Aban, daughter of al-Wazi' ibn Zari', quoting his grandfather, who was a member of the deputation of AbdulQays, said: When we came to Medina, we raced to be first to dismount and kiss the hand and foot of the Apostle of Allah(peace_be_upon_him). But al-Mundhir al-Ashajj waited until he came to the bundle of his clothes. He put on his two garments and then he went to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him).
(Abu Dawud Book 41 Hadith 5206)

Example of Maulana Ali AS prostrating before Rasulullah’s SAW Qabr Mubarak:

“Then he would place his face on the grave, and rub it until it was covered in earth. He would weep and lament and recount the difficulties that had assailed him after Muhammad’s death….”
(https://books.google.com.my/books?id=u9 ... nd&f=false)

Example of soldiers of the Fatimid Army prostrating before Imam al Mahdi AS:

“As soon as the Imam al Mahdi appeared, Ibn Muttalibi said to Abu Abd Allah, ‘This is my master and yours, and the master of all the people.’ Abu Abd Allah then dismounted, and so did Ibn al Muttalibi and the troops. He kissed the ground and they did also; he continued kissing the ground, and the troops kissed the ground behind him, until he had prostrated himself before the hoofs of al Mahdi’s horse. Then he lifted up his head and kissed the stirrup of al Mahdi.”
(Ritual, Politics, and the City in Fatimid Cairo, Pg 13)

Example of a servant prostrating before Imam al Hakim AS in the Imam’s own words:

“When I descended, he placed on my head the turban adorned with jewels, kissed the ground before me and said: ‘Hail to the Commander of the Faithful, with the mercy of God and His blessings.’ He then led me out in that attire and showed me to the people, who all kissed the ground before and saluted me with the title of Caliph.”
(Page 45--- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... hkng-CN9dw)

Example of foreign envoys prostrating before Imam al Zahir AS:

"The envoy from Khurasan arrived with a small son of his. He entered and kissed the ground [in deference] to the Commander of the Faithful, who ordered that he be taken all around the palaces, and it was done. The caliph rose, and the people left.”
(Ritual, Politics, and the City in Fatimid Cairo, Pg 20)

Example of Imam al Muiz AS prostrating before Rasulullah SAW in a dream (1):

“…He responded, ‘I am your forefather, the Messenger of God.’ I turned so I could kiss the ground in front of him….”
(on the authority of 19th Dai Syedna Idris RA)

Example of Imam al Muiz AS prostrating before Rasulullah SAW in a dream (2):

“Al Mu’izz prostrated and kissed the feet of the Prophet, blessings of God be upon him. People transcribed this dream.”
(on the authority of al Maqrizi, Sunni historian)

Example of Syedna al Muayyad al Shirazi RA prostrating before Imam al Mustansir AS:

“…I fell to the earth prostrating for the master of prostration and the one worthy of it… When I lifted my head from the prostration…Then I arose, took his noble hand and kissed it…”
(Memoirs of a Mission, Pg 72)

Example of Syedna al Qadi al Nauman's RA instructions:

"...if someone prostrated himself before one of the Friends of God, intending it to be a glorification of God, that would not be wrong."
(https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jH- ... &q&f=false)

Example of Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA kissing the feet of Syedna Jafar bin Mansur al Yaman RA, the highest ranking Dai of Imam al Muiz AS:

"...could not refrain himself from falling to his knees and kissing Ja'far's feet in recognition of his rank and humility, neither haughty not vain, neither envious of his exalted status nor dismissive of it."
(on the authority of Syedna Idris RA, 19th Dai)

[qjbj]

Great waaz by STF yesterday. So informative.

[Ateka]

"Example of Syedna al Qadi al Nauman RA kissing the feet of Syedna Jafar bin Mansur al Yaman RA, the highest ranking Dai of Imam al Muiz AS: [/b]"

Innumerable wrongs do not make a right, particularly when it's clearly dictated in the Quran. Allah's words are more important then any dai's or imam's. The rest lies on what you want to believe.

[qjbj]

I appreciate the struggles the reformists have gone through but its getting frustrating to read your gripes. I agree with your concerns for financial accountability. But from the waaz yesterday it was clear STF is a business minded person and accountability and transparency will not be an issue. Now you guys are complaining abut sajdas. Who cares....its not a compulsion if you don't want to do it don't. No one is forcing you. You are now sounding like the Wahaabis.

[AgnosticIndian]

I appreciate the struggles the reformists have gone through but its getting frustrating to read your gripes. I agree with your concerns for financial accountability. But from the waaz yesterday it was clear STF is a business minded person and accountability and transparency will not be an issue. Now you guys are complaining abut sajdas. Who cares....its not a compulsion if you don't want to do it don't. No one is forcing you. You are now sounding like the Wahaabis.

I've always said that. Proggies are closet Wahabis.

Shirk, Bidaat and what not. Quick to call stuff units mk and declare people non Muslims. That's what Takfiri Wahabis do as well. Proggies want a puritanical version of Islam. One that's the cause of so much strife in the world

[seeker110]

I would like to see the educated Dai issue farman about Bohra uniform. Everyone , well most understands what the uniform iexhibits cultist behavior. Dai's also need to dress like an educated religious businessman that he is; eager to do morally good things. That lonongg white cloth wrapped around him, he looks helpless and less ordinary. Should live on Earth like everybody else. (humble).

We dont need have reza for every damn thing we do. We all understand basic right and wrong.

We need someone to run the day to day operation of the masjids. We should be allowed to hire and pay whoever the Khadim bring to the table. He can collect some tip on Eid (not on every occasion). Advertise for the job.

Do Mojiza on the net. You have nothing to hide.

At least appear to be a hard working man, not hardly working. If posible stay fit and not fat because fat appears to be weak and helpless. I read somewhere, Mola Ali said it means Haramkhori. You have brains, earn for your family. Should'nt live on handouts.

[Dua for Momeen]

Brother Seeker, you have valid and logical points, but impossible for these people to adopt it.

Dua for Momeen.

[Dua for Momeen]

the leader is not chosen by people but by Allah

Brother Mustafazr, is this just emotional speech from your end? or does it really have some substance and reality associated with it?

Dua for Momeen.

[maxthemature]

Haha taher fakhruddin the bigggest rascal and fraud on the face of this planet earth..we were done with those ideots in 90s itself! Prooven time and again wat they are! Like his father he will perish too and all his money along with it..wait and see!

[seeker110]

Haha taher fakhruddin the bigggest rascal and fraud on the face of this planet earth..we were done with those ideots in 90s itself! Prooven time and again wat they are! Like his father he will perish too and all his money along with it..wait and see!

Khandani hey. Blood is same .

[Dua for Momeen]

Haha taher fakhruddin the bigggest rascal and fraud on the face of this planet earth..we were done with those ideots in 90s itself! Prooven time and again wat they are! Like his father he will perish too and all his money along with it..wait and see!

can you please enlist what frauds Taher Fakhruddin has done so far? so we all can do "haha" as well.

Dua for Momeen.

[mustafazr]

Innumerable wrongs do not make a right, particularly when it's clearly dictated in the Quran.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Innumerable wrongs by the Muslim community do not make a right, when the Quran has particularly stated examples of Allah commanding to do sajda to Waliullah. What matter is what is stated in the Quran and the seerat of our Awliyullah, starting from Rasulullah himself, followed by Panjetan, Aimmat and Duat. If those examples, again I want to stress the Quran and Rasulullah himself, don't hold weight for you, I'm not sure what will.

This thread is also a perfect example of the issues with discussions on this forum. It started with a doctrinal debate on Sajda, followed by discussion on transparency and financial accounting, further followed by accusations on past Duat due to the community issues in their era, ending in name calling and rude language.

Civil debate & discussion should be encouraged by all, regardless of where your views lie on matter of faith, not thwarted.