Why is it that a Bohra will eat in any halal restaurant, whether it is run by a sunni/ wahabbi/ shiah/ ismaili, but when it comes to salat they will not pray side by side with other muslim brethren?
Even in times of Umra at Hajj at the Kabaa - Bayt Allah (house of Allah), we bohras are told by the dawaats clergy in Makkah to "fake it" when all other muslims are ffering namaaz with their azaan and do the actions, then quickly run back to the Rubaat and offer a real namaaz.
This does not make sense.
What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
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alsojinxed
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alsojinxed
- Posts: 24
- Joined: Thu May 10, 2001 4:01 am
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
(sorry for the typinf error) the subject should obviously read "brotherhood"
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Prefer the BOTHER-HOOD or MAFIA-HOOD,
because that is precisely what it is?
because that is precisely what it is?
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Alsojinxed,
"Why is it that a Bohra will eat in any halal restaurant, whether it is run by a sunni/ wahabbi/ shiah/ ismaili, but when it comes to salat they will not pray side by side with other muslim brethren?"
---the last part is only partially true. You see to meet the requirements of what is hala to eat...sunni and shiah meet the requirements we as bohra accept per the teachings of the Quran, Prophet and Imams. Still we cannot eat the fish of even sunni or shiah because they don't require bismallah on seafood, while bohras do.
Regarding prayer, any bohra can pray with any jamat of muslim, as long as the prayer niyyat of the bohra is NOT as per imamah (fi imamah). But then this is not considered Imamate Namaz (namaz with the permission of the Imam). When we bohras take our niyyats with "fi imamah" we are in fact metaphorically praying that salat with the Imam leading us. Bohras believe that the person that leads a jamah prayer must have permission (ijaza) by the authority of God on earth (ie the Imam az'Zaman) to lead religious actions. Thus the Dai being the authority while the Imam is in satr gives this ijaza. Sunni and shiah (currently) don't require this.
So during Hajj..there is greatest barakat to pray in jamat. But if you pray your fardh prayer with other muslims...you cannot pray it again in jamat with other bohras (when you've prayed already). But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
"Why is it that a Bohra will eat in any halal restaurant, whether it is run by a sunni/ wahabbi/ shiah/ ismaili, but when it comes to salat they will not pray side by side with other muslim brethren?"
---the last part is only partially true. You see to meet the requirements of what is hala to eat...sunni and shiah meet the requirements we as bohra accept per the teachings of the Quran, Prophet and Imams. Still we cannot eat the fish of even sunni or shiah because they don't require bismallah on seafood, while bohras do.
Regarding prayer, any bohra can pray with any jamat of muslim, as long as the prayer niyyat of the bohra is NOT as per imamah (fi imamah). But then this is not considered Imamate Namaz (namaz with the permission of the Imam). When we bohras take our niyyats with "fi imamah" we are in fact metaphorically praying that salat with the Imam leading us. Bohras believe that the person that leads a jamah prayer must have permission (ijaza) by the authority of God on earth (ie the Imam az'Zaman) to lead religious actions. Thus the Dai being the authority while the Imam is in satr gives this ijaza. Sunni and shiah (currently) don't require this.
So during Hajj..there is greatest barakat to pray in jamat. But if you pray your fardh prayer with other muslims...you cannot pray it again in jamat with other bohras (when you've prayed already). But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Qiyam,
The verse above is the only verse in the entire Quran that talks about consuming/eating. There is no such thing as halal or haraam in the species of fish. The Bohras are un-Quranic and therefore un-Islamic. Simply reciting or taking the name of GOD on any LAWFUL FOOD is a righteous Quranic command. By taking GOD's name when eating any lawful food in, lets say western countries, is absolutely just and in accordance with the Quran. A person doesn't need to go miles away to look for an Islamic Halal food store only to find out that they wasted their time and are paying a much higher amount in the name of GOD. Such people are truely the criminals of Quran who put the money making schemes on GOD's words.
[2:224] Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
[2:225] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your innermost intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.
[5:4] They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to GOD's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention GOD's name thereupon. You shall observe GOD. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.
[5:5] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
[6:118] You shall eat from that upon which GOD's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which GOD's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
[6:120] You shall avoid obvious sins, as well as the hidden ones. Those who have earned sins will surely pay for their transgressions.
[6:121] Do not eat from that upon which the name of GOD has not been mentioned, for it is an abomination. The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers.
[22:28] They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
[22:36] The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by GOD for your own good.* You shall mention GOD's name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation.
GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE has no partners and none equals HIM.
[5:96] All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.---the last part is only partially true. You see to meet the requirements of what is hala to eat...sunni and shiah meet the requirements we as bohra accept per the teachings of the Quran, Prophet and Imams. Still we cannot eat the fish of even sunni or shiah because they don't require bismallah on seafood, while bohras do.
The verse above is the only verse in the entire Quran that talks about consuming/eating. There is no such thing as halal or haraam in the species of fish. The Bohras are un-Quranic and therefore un-Islamic. Simply reciting or taking the name of GOD on any LAWFUL FOOD is a righteous Quranic command. By taking GOD's name when eating any lawful food in, lets say western countries, is absolutely just and in accordance with the Quran. A person doesn't need to go miles away to look for an Islamic Halal food store only to find out that they wasted their time and are paying a much higher amount in the name of GOD. Such people are truely the criminals of Quran who put the money making schemes on GOD's words.
[2:224] Do not subject GOD's name to your casual swearing, that you may appear righteous, pious, or to attain credibility among the people. GOD is Hearer, Knower.
[2:225] GOD does not hold you responsible for the mere utterance of oaths; He holds you responsible for your innermost intentions. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.
[5:4] They consult you concerning what is lawful for them; say, "Lawful for you are all good things, including what trained dogs and falcons catch for you." You train them according to GOD's teachings. You may eat what they catch for you, and mention GOD's name thereupon. You shall observe GOD. GOD is most efficient in reckoning.
[5:5] Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not committing adultery, nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
[6:118] You shall eat from that upon which GOD's name has been pronounced, if you truly believe in His revelations.
[6:119] Why should you not eat from that upon which GOD's name has been mentioned? He has detailed for you what is prohibited for you, unless you are forced. Indeed, many people mislead others with their personal opinions, without knowledge. Your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.
[6:120] You shall avoid obvious sins, as well as the hidden ones. Those who have earned sins will surely pay for their transgressions.
[6:121] Do not eat from that upon which the name of GOD has not been mentioned, for it is an abomination. The devils inspire their allies to argue with you; if you obey them, you will be idol worshipers.
[22:28] They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate GOD's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
[22:36] The animal offerings are among the rites decreed by GOD for your own good.* You shall mention GOD's name on them while they are standing in line. Once they are offered for sacrifice, you shall eat therefrom and feed the poor and the needy. This is why we subdued them for you, that you may show your appreciation.
Un-Quranic and Un-Islamic. Bohras don't even have Fridays Congregational prayers and there is a whole Surah in reference to Friday (Surah Al-Jumah - The Friday, chapter 62). The Dai and the kothars being their gods and their holy book Diamul Islam, is all they are wholly dependent upon, nothing else, not even the Quran, as one can clearly see.Regarding prayer, any bohra can pray with any jamat of muslim, as long as the prayer niyyat of the bohra is NOT as per imamah (fi imamah). But then this is not considered Imamate Namaz (namaz with the permission of the Imam). When we bohras take our niyyats with "fi imamah" we are in fact metaphorically praying that salat with the Imam leading us. Bohras believe that the person that leads a jamah prayer must have permission (ijaza) by the authority of God on earth (ie the Imam az'Zaman) to lead religious actions. Thus the Dai being the authority while the Imam is in satr gives this ijaza. Sunni and shiah (currently) don't require this.
The Bohras will pray together only during Haj but as soon as they are done with the Haj, they will run away and hide in their burrows, far away from all other Muslims to start their un-Quranic and un-Islamic performances. They only show-off during Haj to pretend that they are a part of Muslim Ummah but in reality they are the worst disbelievers of Islam because even during this sacred holy month of Haj where millions gather together to implore, exalt and glorify GOD Alone, the Bohras are busy imploring, exalting, glorifying and praying for the dead (Ali, Abbas, Hussain, etc.) and as well as for their living gods (Dais, syedenas and kothars). Basically everything they do and act nullifies with shame and disgrace to GOD Almighty.So during Hajj..there is greatest barakat to pray in jamat. But if you pray your fardh prayer with other muslims...you cannot pray it again in jamat with other bohras (when you've prayed already). But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
GOD, there is no other god but GOD. HE has no partners and none equals HIM.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Danish,
Although I neither believe in nor follow bohra injunctions against various kinds of seafood, the ayat which you have quoted is not nearly as unequivocal as your provided translation would make it seem.
5:96 - "Lawful for you is the pursuit of water-game..."
That is a far, far cry from saying that everything that comes the ocean (or pond, lake, etc.) is legal.
Just a little aside...
salaam
Although I neither believe in nor follow bohra injunctions against various kinds of seafood, the ayat which you have quoted is not nearly as unequivocal as your provided translation would make it seem.
5:96 - "Lawful for you is the pursuit of water-game..."
That is a far, far cry from saying that everything that comes the ocean (or pond, lake, etc.) is legal.
Just a little aside...
salaam
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Khairan,
(005.096)
YUSUFALI: Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food,- for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game;- as long as ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. And fear Allah, to Whom ye shall be gathered back.
PICKTHAL: To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you, a provision for you and for seafarers; but to hunt on land is forbidden you so long as ye are on the pilgrimage. Be mindful of your duty to Allah, unto Whom ye will be gathered.
SHAKIR: Lawful to you is the game of the sea and its food, a provision for you and for the travellers, and the game of the land is forbidden to you so long as you are on pilgrimage, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, to Whom you shall be gathered.
KHALIFA: All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
In accordance with the Arabic literacy, Khalifa's translation is far better fetched and easy to comprehend. Even the term "water-game" if understood and perceived correctly as you pointed out, would mean "fishing" or "hunting" for sea-food. Yousuf Ali's translation as far as I can understand, is not easy to understand because of the specific words that he has chosen which can be misleading, such as water-games. He also uses colloquial English (old fashioned) such 'thee', 'thy', 'thoust' etc. which sometimes can be a little confusing.
I hope you agree on the "context" of the verse as explained above.
Please try to quote the complete verse (sentence/paragraph) in order to fully understand its message. One can also refer to other well known translations for comparion study if one is not certain.5:96 - "Lawful for you is the pursuit of water-game..."
That is a far, far cry from saying that everything that comes the ocean (or pond, lake, etc.) is legal.
(005.096)
YUSUFALI: Lawful to you is the pursuit of water-game and its use for food,- for the benefit of yourselves and those who travel; but forbidden is the pursuit of land-game;- as long as ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. And fear Allah, to Whom ye shall be gathered back.
PICKTHAL: To hunt and to eat the fish of the sea is made lawful for you, a provision for you and for seafarers; but to hunt on land is forbidden you so long as ye are on the pilgrimage. Be mindful of your duty to Allah, unto Whom ye will be gathered.
SHAKIR: Lawful to you is the game of the sea and its food, a provision for you and for the travellers, and the game of the land is forbidden to you so long as you are on pilgrimage, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, to Whom you shall be gathered.
KHALIFA: All fish of the sea are made lawful for you to eat. During pilgrimage, this may provide for you during your journey. You shall not hunt throughout the pilgrimage. You shall reverence GOD, before whom you will be summoned.
In accordance with the Arabic literacy, Khalifa's translation is far better fetched and easy to comprehend. Even the term "water-game" if understood and perceived correctly as you pointed out, would mean "fishing" or "hunting" for sea-food. Yousuf Ali's translation as far as I can understand, is not easy to understand because of the specific words that he has chosen which can be misleading, such as water-games. He also uses colloquial English (old fashioned) such 'thee', 'thy', 'thoust' etc. which sometimes can be a little confusing.
I hope you agree on the "context" of the verse as explained above.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Danish,
I didn't quote the entire verse because I didn't feel it was necessary for what I was pointing out. I'm not sure if you got my point, so I'll try to be more precise:
5:96 - "ohilla lakum sayd ulbahre"
translates to "lawful to you is game of the sea".
In the arabic, which I have attempted to transliterate above, no word can be construed to mean "all", as the translation which you use to support your position says. That really is the key - the lack of some pan-inclusive term. Thus, one is left with the idea that water-game in general is lawful, and can infer that because no specific water-game is forbidden, that all water-game is lawful. But, the Qur'an does not unequivocally state this latter point.
I didn't quote the entire verse because I didn't feel it was necessary for what I was pointing out. I'm not sure if you got my point, so I'll try to be more precise:
5:96 - "ohilla lakum sayd ulbahre"
translates to "lawful to you is game of the sea".
In the arabic, which I have attempted to transliterate above, no word can be construed to mean "all", as the translation which you use to support your position says. That really is the key - the lack of some pan-inclusive term. Thus, one is left with the idea that water-game in general is lawful, and can infer that because no specific water-game is forbidden, that all water-game is lawful. But, the Qur'an does not unequivocally state this latter point.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Dear Khairan,
Although I do not disagree with you, I've been very persistent in implying to understand the "overall message of the context of sentence, paragraph or subject" of any given Surah in the Quran.
With that said, the phrase "lawful to you is game of the sea" nor the entire verse 5:96 speaks about any way specific or limited "game of sea". When anything is not clearly specific then it can be applied as "all" and there is really nothing wrong in understanding as to what the entire verse is trying to convey.
Example; if I were to tell you that, "I like to watch sports on TV". When I mention the word "sports", I automatically imply "all sports" and not cherry-pick on any specific sport to imply 'tennis' or 'football' or 'cricket' or 'squash' etc. This is exactly one of the main reasons of misunderstanding the verse entirely by cherry picking on words, thus misleading to give their own opinions rather than being compromising.
I'll Insha-Allah, give you another scenario where Quran is specific. The ablution/Wudu:
[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
In the above bold part of the verse, the pre-requisite for Salaat is ablution, which is very clear and specific. It doesn't say "wash your ears or neck". Also notice that it doesn't say "wash" your heads but "wipe" your heads, whereas the faces, arms and feet are to be "washed" accordingly. This is true with mostly all translations.
Remember, there are allegorical meanings to the Quranic words/verses as well that can be perceived and pondered upon and ONLY GOD knows best.
Wasallam.
Although I do not disagree with you, I've been very persistent in implying to understand the "overall message of the context of sentence, paragraph or subject" of any given Surah in the Quran.
With that said, the phrase "lawful to you is game of the sea" nor the entire verse 5:96 speaks about any way specific or limited "game of sea". When anything is not clearly specific then it can be applied as "all" and there is really nothing wrong in understanding as to what the entire verse is trying to convey.
Example; if I were to tell you that, "I like to watch sports on TV". When I mention the word "sports", I automatically imply "all sports" and not cherry-pick on any specific sport to imply 'tennis' or 'football' or 'cricket' or 'squash' etc. This is exactly one of the main reasons of misunderstanding the verse entirely by cherry picking on words, thus misleading to give their own opinions rather than being compromising.
I'll Insha-Allah, give you another scenario where Quran is specific. The ablution/Wudu:
[5:6] O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
In the above bold part of the verse, the pre-requisite for Salaat is ablution, which is very clear and specific. It doesn't say "wash your ears or neck". Also notice that it doesn't say "wash" your heads but "wipe" your heads, whereas the faces, arms and feet are to be "washed" accordingly. This is true with mostly all translations.
Remember, there are allegorical meanings to the Quranic words/verses as well that can be perceived and pondered upon and ONLY GOD knows best.
Wasallam.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
namaz with the permission of the Imam
I don't mean to be facetious, but as long as you all are pretending (arguably) to be speaking for the Quran, is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God ? If so, why is God then going on about him being the only one, "there is but one..." etc etc. (in the Quran) ?
But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
Ok, I must admit that WAS funny
I don't mean to be facetious, but as long as you all are pretending (arguably) to be speaking for the Quran, is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God ? If so, why is God then going on about him being the only one, "there is but one..." etc etc. (in the Quran) ?
But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
Ok, I must admit that WAS funny
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Muddai,
Would you deny that Muhammad sent dais and had amils in the areas of the muslims to lead prays by his authority?
Would you deny that muslims would not start jamah prayers until Muhammad arrived or a person was given permission by Muhammad to lead prayers?
Would you deny that Bilal didn't give the adhan until Muhammad said to?
"If so, why is God then going on about him being the only one, "there is but one..." etc etc. (in the Quran) ?"
--So easy to forget...La ilaha illilah, muhammadan rasullah. Muhammad is the leader of the ummah of Allah and struggle for 23 years to implement God's words on the people.
Would you deny that Muhammad sent dais and had amils in the areas of the muslims to lead prays by his authority?
Would you deny that muslims would not start jamah prayers until Muhammad arrived or a person was given permission by Muhammad to lead prayers?
Would you deny that Bilal didn't give the adhan until Muhammad said to?
"If so, why is God then going on about him being the only one, "there is but one..." etc etc. (in the Quran) ?"
--So easy to forget...La ilaha illilah, muhammadan rasullah. Muhammad is the leader of the ummah of Allah and struggle for 23 years to implement God's words on the people.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Qiyam,
muhammadan rasullah = DEAD.
ALIVE - DEAD = ALIVE.
Therefore the correct phrase is:
LA ILLAHA ILLALLAH (no other god but GOD), the Quranic truth.
[37:35] When they were told, "Laa Elaaha Ella Allah [There is no other god beside GOD]," they turned arrogant.
[17:45] When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier.
[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion.
[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters".
[2:137] If they believe as you do, then they are guided. But if they turn away, then they are in opposition. GOD will spare you their opposition; He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[2:285] The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of His messengers". They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."
[4:150] Those who disbelieve in GOD and His messengers, and seek to make distinction among GOD and His messengers, and say, "We believe in some and reject some," and wish to follow a path in between; [4:151] these are the real disbelievers. We have prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution. [4:152] As for those who believe in GOD and His messengers, and make no distinction among them, He will grant them their recompense. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[4:164] Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly.
[25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."
Were you personally there to witness Muhammad? Does the Quran say so? If not, then stop bull-shitting about Muhammad and his ahle bait. The Bohras don't even honor the Friday congregational prayers (Surah 62).Would you deny that Muhammad sent dais and had amils in the areas of the muslims to lead prays by his authority?
Would you deny that muslims would not start jamah prayers until Muhammad arrived or a person was given permission by Muhammad to lead prayers?
Would you deny that Bilal didn't give the adhan until Muhammad said to?
La ilaha illilah = ALIVE.So easy to forget...La ilaha illilah, muhammadan rasullah.
muhammadan rasullah = DEAD.
ALIVE - DEAD = ALIVE.
Therefore the correct phrase is:
LA ILLAHA ILLALLAH (no other god but GOD), the Quranic truth.
[37:35] When they were told, "Laa Elaaha Ella Allah [There is no other god beside GOD]," they turned arrogant.
[17:45] When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier.
[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran alone, they run away in aversion.
So was Adam, Noah, Imran, John, Zachariah, Lot, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and many others whom no one knows about, as per the Quran.Muhammad is the leader of the ummah of Allah
[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters".
[2:137] If they believe as you do, then they are guided. But if they turn away, then they are in opposition. GOD will spare you their opposition; He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[2:285] The messenger has believed in what was sent down to him from his Lord, and so did the believers. They believe in GOD, His angels, His scripture, and His messengers: "We make no distinction among any of His messengers". They say, "We hear, and we obey. Forgive us, our Lord. To You is the ultimate destiny."
[4:150] Those who disbelieve in GOD and His messengers, and seek to make distinction among GOD and His messengers, and say, "We believe in some and reject some," and wish to follow a path in between; [4:151] these are the real disbelievers. We have prepared for the disbelievers a shameful retribution. [4:152] As for those who believe in GOD and His messengers, and make no distinction among them, He will grant them their recompense. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[4:164] Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about. And GOD spoke to Moses directly.
[25:30] The messenger said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
I've quoted several verses below that clearly show that everything you eat that is allowed should have the name of Allah (for believers) and that you are allowed to eat the food of the ahlul kitab. This includes all allowed meat (beef, chicken, FISH, etc) no exception made. Allah even questions the muslim in surah 6 of why he/she would not eat somethng with the name of Allah.
[2.172] O you who believe! eat of the good things that We have provided you with, and give thanks to Allah if Him it is that you serve.
[2.173] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
5.4] They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say: The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to hunt-- you teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
[6.118] Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications.
[6.119] And what reason have you that you should not eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned, and He has already made plain to you what He has forbidden to you-- excepting what you are compelled to; and most surely many would lead (people) astray by their low desires out of ignorance; surely your Lord-- He best knows those who exceed the limits.
[2.172] O you who believe! eat of the good things that We have provided you with, and give thanks to Allah if Him it is that you serve.
[2.173] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
5.4] They ask you as to what is allowed to them. Say: The good things are allowed to you, and what you have taught the beasts and birds of prey, training them to hunt-- you teach them of what Allah has taught you-- so eat of that which they catch for you and mention the name of Allah over it; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is swift in reckoning.
[6.118] Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications.
[6.119] And what reason have you that you should not eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned, and He has already made plain to you what He has forbidden to you-- excepting what you are compelled to; and most surely many would lead (people) astray by their low desires out of ignorance; surely your Lord-- He best knows those who exceed the limits.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Quran does mention prohibitions as well as exceptions:I've quoted several verses below that clearly show that everything you eat that is allowed should have the name of Allah (for believers) and that you are allowed to eat the food of the ahlul kitab. This includes all allowed meat (beef, chicken, FISH, etc) no exception made. Allah even questions the muslim in surah 6 of why he/she would not eat somethng with the name of Allah.
[2:173] He only prohibits for you the eating of animals that die of themselves (without human interference), blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. If one is forced (to eat these), without being malicious or deliberate, he incurs no sin. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.
[5:3] Prohibited for you are animals that die of themselves, blood, the meat of pigs, and animals dedicated to other than GOD. (Animals that die of themselves include those) strangled, struck with an object, fallen from a height, gored, attacked by a wild animal - unless you save your animal before it dies - and animals sacrificed on altars. Also prohibited is dividing the meat through a game of chance; this is an abomination. Today, the disbelievers have given up concerning (the eradication of) your religion; do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Submission as the religion for you. If one is forced by famine (to eat prohibited food), without being deliberately sinful, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Dear Danish,
I wrote no exception to the type of meat to have the name of Allah on or from the ahlul kitab. All that you quoted is the worse case scenario...as in no food available at all.
Again this has nothing to do with the original argument that bismillah on all meats is required for the believer (mumin).
[6.118] Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications.
I wrote no exception to the type of meat to have the name of Allah on or from the ahlul kitab. All that you quoted is the worse case scenario...as in no food available at all.
Again this has nothing to do with the original argument that bismillah on all meats is required for the believer (mumin).
[6.118] Therefore eat of that on which Allah's name has been mentioned if you are believers in His communications.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Danish,
The Quran says to obey Allah and obey the messenger.
Muhammad was brought as an example to live the Quran and not just to be forgotten after his death.
The Quranic truth says La ilaha illilaha and also Muhammadan Rasullah. It also say Muhammad is Khatimun Nabi'n.
The Quran is a book of words...they are not alive...they are silent. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them. He is the only authority by Allah allowed to enact them. Not you or your sheikh or your Rashid.
"Were you personally there to witness Muhammad? Does the Quran say so? If not, then stop bull-shitting about Muhammad and his ahle bait. The Bohras don't even honor the Friday congregational prayers (Surah 62)."
---I also wasn't personally there when MUHAMMAD revealed the Quran to the people...but I believe that...why do you, when you don't believe the other things Muhammad did???!!!! And yes the Quran says to OBEY the Prophet and his Family. Bohras do recognize Congregation pray on Friday. Note the Quran doesn't specify a specific Friday prayer other than the required salats.
"So was Adam, Noah, Imran, John, Zachariah, Lot, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and many others whom no one knows about, as per the Quran."
---Actually no...they were prophets for their people (bani israel). The Quran says Muhammad was brought as a mercy for all mankind.
The Quran says to obey Allah and obey the messenger.
Muhammad was brought as an example to live the Quran and not just to be forgotten after his death.
The Quranic truth says La ilaha illilaha and also Muhammadan Rasullah. It also say Muhammad is Khatimun Nabi'n.
The Quran is a book of words...they are not alive...they are silent. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them. He is the only authority by Allah allowed to enact them. Not you or your sheikh or your Rashid.
"Were you personally there to witness Muhammad? Does the Quran say so? If not, then stop bull-shitting about Muhammad and his ahle bait. The Bohras don't even honor the Friday congregational prayers (Surah 62)."
---I also wasn't personally there when MUHAMMAD revealed the Quran to the people...but I believe that...why do you, when you don't believe the other things Muhammad did???!!!! And yes the Quran says to OBEY the Prophet and his Family. Bohras do recognize Congregation pray on Friday. Note the Quran doesn't specify a specific Friday prayer other than the required salats.
"So was Adam, Noah, Imran, John, Zachariah, Lot, Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Jesus, and many others whom no one knows about, as per the Quran."
---Actually no...they were prophets for their people (bani israel). The Quran says Muhammad was brought as a mercy for all mankind.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Qiyam,
Muhammad(an) Rasullah "WAS" and not "IS". He IS dead now.
Quran says to obey Allah but not the dead. Sorry, not possible to obey the dead.The Quran says to obey Allah and obey the messenger.
And that's why we are remembering Muhammad by remembering his message, the Quran.Muhammad was brought as an example to live the Quran and not just to be forgotten after his death.
Yeap, two seperate entities, not joined together.The Quranic truth says La ilaha illilaha and also Muhammadan Rasullah. It also say Muhammad is Khatimun Nabi'n.
Muhammad(an) Rasullah "WAS" and not "IS". He IS dead now.
GOD is ALIVE and so is HIS BOOK, the QURAN. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them and that's why its ALIVE, RECITED, SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD.The Quran is a book of words...they are not alive...they are silent. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them. He is the only authority by Allah allowed to enact them.
I am still Alive and so is the Quran, Masha-Allah, Alhamdu-Lillah. I rejected and eliminated my sheikh who happens to be your little bitty god (Mr. Burhanuddin Sheikhy) and Rashid is dead.Not you or your sheikh or your Rashid.
O what a pity. I guess you will never see him then to verify his sunnah. That's bad luck dude.---I also wasn't personally there when MUHAMMAD revealed the Quran to the people
Not possible for me to OBEY anyone who is dead. I guess you need to dig them out of the grave and ask your little bitty god (Mr. Burhanuddin) to make them alive for you to obey them. That is only if your god can do that, otherwise forget it.And yes the Quran says to OBEY the Prophet and his Family.
Yeap only recognise it. As a matter of fact all the prayers the Bohras perform are for their Kotharies, Daies, Syedies, Imaamies and Muhammadies. Not one is ever meant for GOD Alone. What a shame and disgrace to GOD.Bohras do recognize Congregation pray on Friday.
It does, you just can't seem to understand it. I guess it is GOD's will.Note the Quran doesn't specify a specific Friday prayer other than the required salats
And so was Muhammad for his people. He was dead a long time ago and so were all the rest of the prophets. The Quran is the ultimate mercy for all mankind from GOD Almighty.---Actually no...they were prophets for their people (bani israel). The Quran says Muhammad was brought as a mercy for all mankind.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Qiyam,
I don't profess to speak for the Quran, you do. I am no expert on these matters so I posed a layman's question: is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God ?
Your reply:
Last time I checked there was not a single Bohra named "Bilal" either, wonder why the Dai does not dole out such an illustrious name (?) I am sure you can enlighten me on that as well.
But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
This is even funnier as I read it. I grew up with Sunni's, and all my Muslim friends are Sunnis. I had to tell them who "Bohras" were...I doubt that they would miss you during Haj....
Perhaps you want to fit in with the "masters" in Saudi Arabia, so they do not spotlight the worship of Dai ?...for one, you sure as hell don't want to be on Bin Laden's "infidel" list !
I don't profess to speak for the Quran, you do. I am no expert on these matters so I posed a layman's question: is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God ?
Your reply:
My limited knowledge tells me that none of the situations you mention were documented in the Quran. Don't know who Bilal is ...forgive me.Would you deny that Muhammad sent dais and had amils in the areas of the muslims to lead prays by his authority?
Would you deny that muslims would not start jamah prayers until Muhammad arrived or a person was given permission by Muhammad to lead prayers?
Would you deny that Bilal didn't give the adhan until Muhammad said to?
Last time I checked there was not a single Bohra named "Bilal" either, wonder why the Dai does not dole out such an illustrious name (?) I am sure you can enlighten me on that as well.
But because they are our bretheren, and so as not to offend/hurt them, we follow along with them.
This is even funnier as I read it. I grew up with Sunni's, and all my Muslim friends are Sunnis. I had to tell them who "Bohras" were...I doubt that they would miss you during Haj....
Perhaps you want to fit in with the "masters" in Saudi Arabia, so they do not spotlight the worship of Dai ?...for one, you sure as hell don't want to be on Bin Laden's "infidel" list !
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Danish,
"Quran says to obey Allah but not the dead. Sorry, not possible to obey the dead."
--Allah says in the Quran to obey his messenger like those of before. There teachings were the same. So if I follow Isa or Mose...I would preaching the same as Muhammad. So we follow the teaching of not JUST the dead, but the teachings of guides of Allah...not just some ordinary person.
"And that's why we are remembering Muhammad by remembering his message, the Quran."
--This is exactly where your mentality fail...the message wasn't only the Quran...for Allah say in the Quran to uphold the Quran and actions of my messenger. Both things are part of the message..not just the Quran.
"Yeap, two seperate entities, not joined together."
--Yes, not just joined...but Muhammad is as important as the Quran...because he is the revealer, enactor, and example of the Quran. This was his purpose and we are required to act in that manners...to fit the prescept of the Quran.
"GOD is ALIVE and so is HIS BOOK, the QURAN. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them and that's why its ALIVE, RECITED, SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD."
--God is alive...but the Quran is not God. The Quran is no different than the Taurah or Injeel. And Muhammad brought the Quran to life so that we may know how Allah wants us to worship Him. Muhammad WAS AND IS the only example to follow according to Allah.
"And so was Muhammad for his people. He was dead a long time ago and so were all the rest of the prophets. The Quran is the ultimate mercy for all mankind from GOD Almighty."
--According to this statement...other than as a vehicle to bring the book..YOU believe the messenger had no purpose. So if you can find a way to live by the Quran other than through sunnah of the only person it authorizes to follow..then please yourself. You say you follow the Quran...yet deny the main concept behind it...to the follow the person that brought it. I have nothing further to argue with you. Lakum dinikum wa layudin.
"Quran says to obey Allah but not the dead. Sorry, not possible to obey the dead."
--Allah says in the Quran to obey his messenger like those of before. There teachings were the same. So if I follow Isa or Mose...I would preaching the same as Muhammad. So we follow the teaching of not JUST the dead, but the teachings of guides of Allah...not just some ordinary person.
"And that's why we are remembering Muhammad by remembering his message, the Quran."
--This is exactly where your mentality fail...the message wasn't only the Quran...for Allah say in the Quran to uphold the Quran and actions of my messenger. Both things are part of the message..not just the Quran.
"Yeap, two seperate entities, not joined together."
--Yes, not just joined...but Muhammad is as important as the Quran...because he is the revealer, enactor, and example of the Quran. This was his purpose and we are required to act in that manners...to fit the prescept of the Quran.
"GOD is ALIVE and so is HIS BOOK, the QURAN. Muhammad brought them to life and enacted them and that's why its ALIVE, RECITED, SPOKEN AND UNDERSTOOD."
--God is alive...but the Quran is not God. The Quran is no different than the Taurah or Injeel. And Muhammad brought the Quran to life so that we may know how Allah wants us to worship Him. Muhammad WAS AND IS the only example to follow according to Allah.
"And so was Muhammad for his people. He was dead a long time ago and so were all the rest of the prophets. The Quran is the ultimate mercy for all mankind from GOD Almighty."
--According to this statement...other than as a vehicle to bring the book..YOU believe the messenger had no purpose. So if you can find a way to live by the Quran other than through sunnah of the only person it authorizes to follow..then please yourself. You say you follow the Quran...yet deny the main concept behind it...to the follow the person that brought it. I have nothing further to argue with you. Lakum dinikum wa layudin.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Muddai,
"I don't profess to speak for the Quran, you do."
--I never said such a thing. What I write is based on the teachings of our Prophet and Imams not my own.
"My limited knowledge tells me that none of the situations you mention were documented in the Quran. Don't know who Bilal is ...forgive me."
---Maybe you should have checked before assuming. Bilal was one of most respected companions of the Prophet and during the life of the Prophet was the official muazzin (the first muazzin).
Maulana Ali, Salman Farsi, Ammar bin Yassir, etc. were all Dais/Amil for particular areas of the Muslims during the Prophet's life. Maulana Ali was the Dai and amil for Yemen. Being a layman is no excuse for at least trying to research something.
"Last time I checked there was not a single Bohra named "Bilal" either, wonder why the Dai does not dole out such an illustrious name (?) I am sure you can enlighten me on that as well."
--How many bohras do you know named malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used.
"This is even funnier as I read it. I grew up with Sunni's, and all my Muslim friends are Sunnis. I had to tell them who "Bohras" were...I doubt that they would miss you during Haj...."
--Unless your friends are from the Indo-pak...they probably never heard of Memons, Qadris, Brevalis, Deobandi, Khojas, etc (these makeup the vast majority of sunni in Indo-pak). I have sunni friends from West Africa...ever heard of Malikis, Tijanis, etc. So it doesn't surprise me YOUR friend never heard of Bohras. Every sunni or shiah person I know from Karachi or Mumbai does know of them...and have great respect for Sayedna(tus).
"I don't profess to speak for the Quran, you do."
--I never said such a thing. What I write is based on the teachings of our Prophet and Imams not my own.
"My limited knowledge tells me that none of the situations you mention were documented in the Quran. Don't know who Bilal is ...forgive me."
---Maybe you should have checked before assuming. Bilal was one of most respected companions of the Prophet and during the life of the Prophet was the official muazzin (the first muazzin).
Maulana Ali, Salman Farsi, Ammar bin Yassir, etc. were all Dais/Amil for particular areas of the Muslims during the Prophet's life. Maulana Ali was the Dai and amil for Yemen. Being a layman is no excuse for at least trying to research something.
"Last time I checked there was not a single Bohra named "Bilal" either, wonder why the Dai does not dole out such an illustrious name (?) I am sure you can enlighten me on that as well."
--How many bohras do you know named malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used.
"This is even funnier as I read it. I grew up with Sunni's, and all my Muslim friends are Sunnis. I had to tell them who "Bohras" were...I doubt that they would miss you during Haj...."
--Unless your friends are from the Indo-pak...they probably never heard of Memons, Qadris, Brevalis, Deobandi, Khojas, etc (these makeup the vast majority of sunni in Indo-pak). I have sunni friends from West Africa...ever heard of Malikis, Tijanis, etc. So it doesn't surprise me YOUR friend never heard of Bohras. Every sunni or shiah person I know from Karachi or Mumbai does know of them...and have great respect for Sayedna(tus).
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
---Maybe you should have checked before assuming Assuming what ?
malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used. How about Bilal ?
Every sunni or shiah person I know from Karachi or Mumbai does know of them...and have great respect for Sayedna(tus).
Then they would surely understand, appreciate, and respect you if you simply walked away and prayed on your own.
malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used. How about Bilal ?
Every sunni or shiah person I know from Karachi or Mumbai does know of them...and have great respect for Sayedna(tus).
Then they would surely understand, appreciate, and respect you if you simply walked away and prayed on your own.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Muddai,
---Maybe you should have checked before assuming Assuming what ?.
--Assuming that the questions I asked had no historical facts to them.
malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used. How about Bilal ?
--Yes, Bilal is a name given...though not as prevailant as Husayn, Hassan, etc. This is the reason I gave the example names I gave.
Then they would surely understand, appreciate, and respect you if you simply walked away and prayed on your own.
--what exactly is the point of this statement to the original topic. You see when a bohra/shiah is in the Haram during or near the time of a sunni salat time you will be asked/requested to join by other muslim. And believe me they will be offended if you say no. It is not the point of walking away...for if in the original post that were an option, it would have been taken. The question posed related to the situation of not having that option in Umra or Hajj.
---Maybe you should have checked before assuming Assuming what ?.
--Assuming that the questions I asked had no historical facts to them.
malik, behlul, behlum, idris, tamim? These are the names of some Syedna's own family. Just because you haven't heard a name doesn't mean it isn't used. How about Bilal ?
--Yes, Bilal is a name given...though not as prevailant as Husayn, Hassan, etc. This is the reason I gave the example names I gave.
Then they would surely understand, appreciate, and respect you if you simply walked away and prayed on your own.
--what exactly is the point of this statement to the original topic. You see when a bohra/shiah is in the Haram during or near the time of a sunni salat time you will be asked/requested to join by other muslim. And believe me they will be offended if you say no. It is not the point of walking away...for if in the original post that were an option, it would have been taken. The question posed related to the situation of not having that option in Umra or Hajj.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
--Assuming that the questions I asked had no historical facts to them. My question was not related to historical "fact" that is why perhaps you failed to anwer it. The question was is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Muddai,
[QBThe question was is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God [/QB][/QUOTE]
--Actually, I wrote permission must be attend to LEAD the prayer..not TO pray. The restriction was displayed many times by the Prophet where he would appoint person to lead the prayer in Medina. If a the Prophet did come and a person wasn't assigned by the Prophet..the people prayed the salat individually. As shiah, the Imam would follow in this position of authority. And in fact this practice was followed by all the Imams in zuhor.
[QBThe question was is it explicit in the Quran that you must obtain permission to pray to God [/QB][/QUOTE]
--Actually, I wrote permission must be attend to LEAD the prayer..not TO pray. The restriction was displayed many times by the Prophet where he would appoint person to lead the prayer in Medina. If a the Prophet did come and a person wasn't assigned by the Prophet..the people prayed the salat individually. As shiah, the Imam would follow in this position of authority. And in fact this practice was followed by all the Imams in zuhor.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
.
Br. qiyam
AS
Wasalaam
.
Br. qiyam
AS
Can you provide any Hadith reference for this statement.The restriction was displayed many times by the Prophet where he would appoint person to lead the prayer in Medina. If a the Prophet did come and a person wasn't assigned by the Prophet..the people prayed the salat individually.
Wasalaam
.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
Dear MuslimFirst,
"Can you provide any Hadith reference for this statement."
--When you refer to the hadith (sahih muslim, kitab as'salat) regarding how the imam of the jamah prayer is selected...all refer to the Prophet appointing a person (in sunni hadith most recount to Abu Bakr leading when the Prophet was ill). Even in this scenario..when the Prophet arrived in the mosque during the salat..Abu Bakr stepped back for the Prophet to lead sitting.
Sahih Bukhari records the following incidents:
Volume 2, Book 13, Number 18:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "All of you are Guardians." Yunis said: Ruzaiq bin Hukaim wrote to Ibn Shihab while I was with him at Wadi-al-Qura saying, "Shall I lead the Jumua prayer?" Ruzaiq was working on the land (i.e farming) and there was a group of Sudanese people and some others with him; Ruzaiq was then the Governor of Aila. Ibn Shihab wrote (to Ruzaiq) ordering him to lead the Jumua prayer and telling him that Salim told him that 'Abdullah bin 'Umar had said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care. The Imam (i.e. ruler) is the guardian of his subjects and is responsible for them and a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for them. A woman is the guardian of her husband's house and is responsible for it. A servant is the guardian of his master's belongings and is responsible for them.' I thought that he also said, 'A man is the guardian of his father's property and is responsible for it. All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care."
--Note that the persons were asking permission from people in regards to the Imam, the Prophet.
For shiah, the leader of the salat must by appointed to that position by the Imam or authority there under. This is especially so for Jumah prayers for shiah believe that actually Salatul Jum'ah can be only lead by the Imam.
"Can you provide any Hadith reference for this statement."
--When you refer to the hadith (sahih muslim, kitab as'salat) regarding how the imam of the jamah prayer is selected...all refer to the Prophet appointing a person (in sunni hadith most recount to Abu Bakr leading when the Prophet was ill). Even in this scenario..when the Prophet arrived in the mosque during the salat..Abu Bakr stepped back for the Prophet to lead sitting.
Sahih Bukhari records the following incidents:
Volume 2, Book 13, Number 18:
Narrated Ibn Umar:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "All of you are Guardians." Yunis said: Ruzaiq bin Hukaim wrote to Ibn Shihab while I was with him at Wadi-al-Qura saying, "Shall I lead the Jumua prayer?" Ruzaiq was working on the land (i.e farming) and there was a group of Sudanese people and some others with him; Ruzaiq was then the Governor of Aila. Ibn Shihab wrote (to Ruzaiq) ordering him to lead the Jumua prayer and telling him that Salim told him that 'Abdullah bin 'Umar had said, "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care. The Imam (i.e. ruler) is the guardian of his subjects and is responsible for them and a man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for them. A woman is the guardian of her husband's house and is responsible for it. A servant is the guardian of his master's belongings and is responsible for them.' I thought that he also said, 'A man is the guardian of his father's property and is responsible for it. All of you are guardians and responsible for your wards and the things under your care."
--Note that the persons were asking permission from people in regards to the Imam, the Prophet.
For shiah, the leader of the salat must by appointed to that position by the Imam or authority there under. This is especially so for Jumah prayers for shiah believe that actually Salatul Jum'ah can be only lead by the Imam.
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Muslim First
- Posts: 6893
- Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:01 am
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
.
Br. qiyam
The hadith you posted does not clarify situation. when both Prophet SAW and Abu Bakar Siddiqu RA were away from Prophet's mosque. I am sure next most knowledgeable and qualified person would have led the prayers.
Show me where it clearly states that in Prophet's and Rashidoon Kalifa's time only people who had permission were allowed to lead prayers, otherwise everybody in Masjid prayed by themselves.
Shia from Iran do lead prayers without Mulla. (One in our mosque leads his countrymen after Tafseer session)
I do not know if this is true for Shia of Indo-Pak region. I see them in our mosque during Jumma and it seems they do not have problem praying behind sunni Imam.
Now here is a Hadith.
Abu Darda related that Prophet SAW said:
If there are three people in a village or even in a desart, and they do not pray together, the devil will surely overcome them. So always offer prayers in congregation, for a wolf only injures a solitary sheep .
Related by Abu Dawud, Ahmed and an-Nasai
(From: A Treasury of Ahadith By Dr. M.U.Kazi)
Now here is a clear reason for us to pray in Jamaat.
Regarding Jamaat leader by permission and Khutba by Imaam only, I would hope you will back-up your argument with a Hadith even from your Bohra fiqh.
Wasalaam
.
Br. qiyam
The hadith you posted does not clarify situation. when both Prophet SAW and Abu Bakar Siddiqu RA were away from Prophet's mosque. I am sure next most knowledgeable and qualified person would have led the prayers.
Show me where it clearly states that in Prophet's and Rashidoon Kalifa's time only people who had permission were allowed to lead prayers, otherwise everybody in Masjid prayed by themselves.
True only for Bohra's.For shiah, the leader of the salat must by appointed to that position by the Imam or authority there under. This is especially so for Jumah prayers for shiah believe that actually Salatul Jum'ah can be only lead by the Imam.
Shia from Iran do lead prayers without Mulla. (One in our mosque leads his countrymen after Tafseer session)
I do not know if this is true for Shia of Indo-Pak region. I see them in our mosque during Jumma and it seems they do not have problem praying behind sunni Imam.
Now here is a Hadith.
Abu Darda related that Prophet SAW said:
If there are three people in a village or even in a desart, and they do not pray together, the devil will surely overcome them. So always offer prayers in congregation, for a wolf only injures a solitary sheep .
Related by Abu Dawud, Ahmed and an-Nasai
(From: A Treasury of Ahadith By Dr. M.U.Kazi)
Now here is a clear reason for us to pray in Jamaat.
Regarding Jamaat leader by permission and Khutba by Imaam only, I would hope you will back-up your argument with a Hadith even from your Bohra fiqh.
Wasalaam
.
Re: What does BORTHERHOOD in Islam mean to the Bohras?
MuslimFirst,
The hadith you posted does not clarify situation. when both Prophet SAW and Abu Bakar Siddiqu RA were away from Prophet's mosque. I am sure next most knowledgeable and qualified person would have led the prayers.
--This is incorrect assumption. Firstly, Abu Bakr was in the congregation waiting in the mosque. The Prophet was in his house, which is not far from the mosque. You will note that the Prophet asked four times in the hadith if the muslims had prayed...not if someone led. Also, no one even suggested leading until the Prophet ordered Abu Bakr to lead. If then, when the Prophet enter the mosque, with the help of Abbas and Ali, Abu Bakr set back and the Prophet finished leading the salat.
Show me where it clearly states that in Prophet's and Rashidoon Kalifa's time only people who had permission were allowed to lead prayers, otherwise everybody in Masjid prayed by themselves.
---The point is just that...I ONLY have examples/references where the Prophet or Imams appointed person to lead congregation prayers. In the hadith you reference, it states the importance of congregational prayers, but nothing related to the person who lead. Note the relator is Abu Darda, who was an Dai of the Prophet.
True only for Bohra's. Shia from Iran do lead prayers without Mulla. (One in our mosque leads his countrymen after Tafseer session)
--I don't deny shiah in Iran do...if you ask their scholars is this based on the Imam...they will say no..it is their ayatuallah's own ijtihad which says that, because they are considered representatives of the Imam az'Zaman over the ummah; they give authority to lead prayers. Based on this, the shia ulema lowered the standard that the leader of the jamat must only be adult, twelver fiqh, recite arabic, sane, etc otherwise they themselve don't form a jamat.
I do not know if this is true for Shia of Indo-Pak region. I see them in our mosque during Jumma and it seems they do not have problem praying behind sunni Imam.
--shiah (including bohra) can pray behind a sunni imam in jamat as long as their niyyat is for a individual prayer.
Regarding Jamaat leader by permission and Khutba by Imaam only, I would hope you will back-up your argument with a Hadith even from your Bohra fiqh.
--I can only refer you to Islamic history. The khutbas were only given in the name of the Imam. During the times of the Ummayyad and Abbasid dynasties..the khutbas were in the name of the khalif (who they consider the Imam). For shiah, they were in the name of the Imam (a khutbah either written or approved by the Imam).
My point is there is no reference ever allowing majority selection of the leader of jamat during the Prophet time. Ijma regarding religious matters was never allowed by the Prophet or Imams.
The hadith you posted does not clarify situation. when both Prophet SAW and Abu Bakar Siddiqu RA were away from Prophet's mosque. I am sure next most knowledgeable and qualified person would have led the prayers.
--This is incorrect assumption. Firstly, Abu Bakr was in the congregation waiting in the mosque. The Prophet was in his house, which is not far from the mosque. You will note that the Prophet asked four times in the hadith if the muslims had prayed...not if someone led. Also, no one even suggested leading until the Prophet ordered Abu Bakr to lead. If then, when the Prophet enter the mosque, with the help of Abbas and Ali, Abu Bakr set back and the Prophet finished leading the salat.
Show me where it clearly states that in Prophet's and Rashidoon Kalifa's time only people who had permission were allowed to lead prayers, otherwise everybody in Masjid prayed by themselves.
---The point is just that...I ONLY have examples/references where the Prophet or Imams appointed person to lead congregation prayers. In the hadith you reference, it states the importance of congregational prayers, but nothing related to the person who lead. Note the relator is Abu Darda, who was an Dai of the Prophet.
True only for Bohra's. Shia from Iran do lead prayers without Mulla. (One in our mosque leads his countrymen after Tafseer session)
--I don't deny shiah in Iran do...if you ask their scholars is this based on the Imam...they will say no..it is their ayatuallah's own ijtihad which says that, because they are considered representatives of the Imam az'Zaman over the ummah; they give authority to lead prayers. Based on this, the shia ulema lowered the standard that the leader of the jamat must only be adult, twelver fiqh, recite arabic, sane, etc otherwise they themselve don't form a jamat.
I do not know if this is true for Shia of Indo-Pak region. I see them in our mosque during Jumma and it seems they do not have problem praying behind sunni Imam.
--shiah (including bohra) can pray behind a sunni imam in jamat as long as their niyyat is for a individual prayer.
Regarding Jamaat leader by permission and Khutba by Imaam only, I would hope you will back-up your argument with a Hadith even from your Bohra fiqh.
--I can only refer you to Islamic history. The khutbas were only given in the name of the Imam. During the times of the Ummayyad and Abbasid dynasties..the khutbas were in the name of the khalif (who they consider the Imam). For shiah, they were in the name of the Imam (a khutbah either written or approved by the Imam).
My point is there is no reference ever allowing majority selection of the leader of jamat during the Prophet time. Ijma regarding religious matters was never allowed by the Prophet or Imams.