Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

The one and only free public forum for Bohras. The focus of this forum is the reform movement, the Dawoodi Bohra faith and, of course, the corrupt priesthood. But the discussion is in no way restricted to the Bohras alone.
allbird
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#841

Unread post by allbird » Wed May 10, 2017 9:20 pm

Deleted..
Last edited by allbird on Wed May 10, 2017 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

allbird
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#842

Unread post by allbird » Wed May 10, 2017 9:37 pm

The secret of Bohras FGM or Khaftz is out of bag in open media. The world including Non - Muslims are now reading about it. What is Makfi is now no longer Makfi the evil truth is out. Now we have only 2 choice either the world accepts this Bohra practice as legit and encourage world - wide women to do FMG, insurance companies accept this as preventative measures and cover the cost of Khaftz or Khatna for women and award SMS another Doctorate of Scientific research for this philanthropic work on women Hygiene and preventative measure just like world has come to accept male circumcision.
Or SLAP criminal charges on him and issue a world wide warrant with a price on this head. In fact is SMS really really really Dai of Imam Hussain descendant of Syedi Fakhruddin Shaheed RA then he should hand himself IN and declare himself responsible of those ARREST and beg to release all those in Jail in exchange. Confession will let his soul free and also prove to the world his is really CHOSEN ONE and not another Daweedar selected by brothers.

Lol our Dawaat ni gaadi now has to move to Afghanistan and for Kadam Bhoosi we have to go to Kandahar.

ajamali
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#843

Unread post by ajamali » Thu May 11, 2017 7:34 am

ORANGE IS THE NEW WHITE
IMG_5313.JPG

objectiveobserver53
Posts: 406
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:29 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#844

Unread post by objectiveobserver53 » Thu May 11, 2017 7:50 am

ajamali wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 7:34 am
ORANGE IS THE NEW WHITEIMG_5313.JPG
nice job Muffy!! Well done really! What a disgrace to see a bohra hat on a man wearing a prison uniform. It is a direct result of his stupid speech!

sugguma
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:38 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#845

Unread post by sugguma » Thu May 11, 2017 10:59 am

:!: :?:
Last edited by sugguma on Mon May 15, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#846

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Fri May 12, 2017 12:36 am

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/l ... 101475892/

2 families to keep kids for now in mutilation case
--------------------

If there are news reports related to this case and FGM, let us post them in this thread, going forward.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#847

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Fri May 12, 2017 12:49 am

sugguma wrote:
Thu May 11, 2017 10:59 am
Becharo Muffy...

how the mighty...

humptydumpty muffy.jpg


and his rabid followers have fallen!!!!


cartoon-behind-bars.jpg

Australia, America....

and maybe soon...Africa????!!!!


-behind_bars-zebras.jpg
I would really be careful counting chickens before they are hatched. If all the people that get prosecuted are the 3 folks in Detroit, not much may likely change. FGM is likely happening in other places where Bohras reside in the US, Canada, UK, etc. Unless a far wider net is cast, including other cities in US, other countries, and it reaches to the top echelons of the leadership, nothing significant may change.

Already we see some people referring to FBI Director Comey's dismissal as a mojiza; many more people may have to be implicated for enough pressure to be felt by the top folks and genuine change to take place.

Eventually, USA and other countries will need to approach the Indian government and make it a Human Rights Issue related to very young girls. Only then may be there is some chance of a change.

sugguma
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:38 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#848

Unread post by sugguma » Fri May 12, 2017 11:15 pm

I have nothing further to comment.
Last edited by sugguma on Mon May 15, 2017 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Biradar
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Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#849

Unread post by Biradar » Sat May 13, 2017 7:42 am

To those who are prematurely celebrating the "downfall" of Muffy: please don't count your chickens before they are hatched. This case is going to be complex and it is not clear that the FBI will prevail in the end. Part of the issue is the nature of religion liberty in the US. If the lawyers eventually want to argue that banning FGM is a violation of the US Constitution, this case will eventually end up with the US Supreme Court. At that point, a lot depends on how the justices view the government ban: if they think it interferes with the ability to Bohras to practice their religion, then they will side with defense lawyers.

Also, even though the question of FGM is clearly a human rights issues, there are many broad religious liberty questions which come up: who decides which religious practice is worse? Why not also ban male circumcision? Are parent's allowed to choose religious education for their kids (i.e. madrassa) where they are brainwashed and perhaps put to greater mental harm than the physical harm from FGM?

A more important question one can ask: when will Bohras stop practicing FGM on their own? What will it take to eliminate this practice, not by making it illegal (which may only push it further underground), but by Bohras themselves understanding that this is a immoral thing to do? For the Fatemi Dawaat folks, the answer is already clear, as STF has already said that this no longer should be done to children. That brings FGM to an end for FD folks.

Will Muffy do the same? I highly doubt it. The whole schism has its roots in extreme orthodoxy, represented by the wicked Yusuf Najmuddin, and modernization, represented by SKQ. We have seen how that has ended: by the marginalization of SKQ and his followers, a schism and hardening of the orthodox stand.

Even the Progressives are loosing steam, and orthodoxy is on the rise again. The sad reality of the matter is that religious fanatics have a lot of energy and forces of liberalism lack enthusiasm. We see it here too: the board is almost dead, while the forces of orthodoxy are raging stronger than ever. Reformists, in many ways, have lost the larger battle to reform the community.

I am not convinced that the FGM case will succeed in "bringing down" Muffy. Seems unlikely. I am pretty sure the Butcher Nagarwala will be given a jail sentence, but the charges will be to transport minors across state lines for sexual misconduct, rather than FGM per-se. We will see.

Biradar
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Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#850

Unread post by Biradar » Sat May 13, 2017 7:52 am

To add one more point: there is a worst case outcome for this case, that people have not considered. That is, the legalization of FGM, under the guise of "female circumcision", analogous to "male circumcision". The courts may say that "female circumcision" is fine if done by medical professionals. This is a possibility. Think of the late term abortions in the US. These are legal, even though the ethics of such abortions are highly questionable. In the UK such abortions are illegal (after 24 weeks), for example, but feminists in the US believe that a woman should be able to terminate the baby right up to the moment it is born. How do we know that the US, in the name of protecting religious liberty, won't do the same for FGM? They may end up saying that certified nurses or doctors can do FGM and it is only illegal if done by non-medical practitioners.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#851

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sat May 13, 2017 1:04 pm

Biradar wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 7:52 am
To add one more point: there is a worst case outcome for this case, that people have not considered. That is, the legalization of FGM, under the guise of "female circumcision", analogous to "male circumcision". The courts may say that "female circumcision" is fine if done by medical professionals. This is a possibility. Think of the late term abortions in the US. These are legal, even though the ethics of such abortions are highly questionable. In the UK such abortions are illegal (after 24 weeks), for example, but feminists in the US believe that a woman should be able to terminate the baby right up to the moment it is born. How do we know that the US, in the name of protecting religious liberty, won't do the same for FGM? They may end up saying that certified nurses or doctors can do FGM and it is only illegal if done by non-medical practitioners.
This would be a horrifying end for all the women who have braved socially punitive consequences to speak up against a practice that they feel has damaged and violated them. The US Judicial system would have truly failed them if they legalize FGM on minors. The point has been made several times that a minor's clitoris is very very tiny compared to that of an adult and the risk of damage is very high when the procedure is performed on minors.

STF has taken a wise stand on this by allowing a woman to defer khafz into adulthood and leaving it to the woman's volition. He found a solution without having to change shariah or US laws. MS on the other hand, in his usual bumbling fashion, first tried to change shariah by banning khafz, then encouraged law breaking by insisting it be done and then washed his hands off the whole problem by questioning why his followers broke the law.

dal-chaval-palidu
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:46 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#852

Unread post by dal-chaval-palidu » Sat May 13, 2017 1:18 pm

Good observations, Bro. Biradar. It is a small but non-zero likelihood that the US Surpreme court could side with the khatna-defenders.

Generally, it seems unlikely to me that US Supreme court will support FGM. If khatna is allowed, what else may need to be allowed? Then a lot of other practices can also come under the preview of religious freedom. If cutting 7 year old girls is okay, then who is to say stoning woman for adultery is not okay? Or cutting hands for stealing? Or forcing hijab on young girls, or, no contact with non-mehram men?

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#853

Unread post by SBM » Sat May 13, 2017 1:34 pm

To those who are prematurely celebrating the "downfall" of Muffy: please don't count your chickens before they are hatched. This case is going to be complex and it is not clear that the FBI will prevail in the end.
Biradar
What makes you think that is the only charge FBI and DOJ is pursuing on Muffy Clan. Arrest of Nagarwala and Attar is small potato in the bigger scheme of DOJ.

sugguma
Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:38 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#854

Unread post by sugguma » Sat May 13, 2017 3:49 pm

Birader & Crater Lake,

STF and SMS....a case of Dumb vs. Dumber!
Last edited by sugguma on Mon May 15, 2017 8:15 pm, edited 11 times in total.

Ozdundee
Posts: 879
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:57 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#855

Unread post by Ozdundee » Sat May 13, 2017 5:41 pm

has taken a wise stand on this by allowing a woman to defer khafz into adulthood and leaving it to the woman's volition. He found a solution without having to change shariah or US laws.]
It is a concern, these words. Taking stand or wise move, is this grandstanding or politicking between rivals.

Where is genuine concern for wellbeing or after deep analysis the FGM on children is banned, while on adults is not sanctioned by orthodoxy it is a non religious point . Like vaccination religion views are not sought or there is no discussion.

This is annoying and if these leaders don't ban in plain English with straight forward words they will be forced to look as being led rather than leading . FGM brigade will look into these too.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#856

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun May 14, 2017 1:31 am

Ozdundee wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 5:41 pm
has taken a wise stand on this by allowing a woman to defer khafz into adulthood and leaving it to the woman's volition. He found a solution without having to change shariah or US laws.]
It is a concern, these words. Taking stand or wise move, is this grandstanding or politicking between rivals.

Where is genuine concern for wellbeing or after deep analysis the FGM on children is banned, while on adults is not sanctioned by orthodoxy it is a non religious point . Like vaccination religion views are not sought or there is no discussion.

This is annoying and if these leaders don't ban in plain English with straight forward words they will be forced to look as being led rather than leading . FGM brigade will look into these too.
I don't know what your problem is with adult women choosing to do with their bodies as they please. It is a right granted to them by all governments. Women do all sorts of things with their bodies that you and I may consider mutilation. They pierce their tongues, they pierce their clitoris, they get it dehooded, they inject themselves with Botox, they get breast implants ( if you have ever watched a breast implant surgery you will realize how much mutilation the body undergoes before it is put back together again with a silicone pack inside. If this pack bursts it can kill the woman.) Regardless, women are allowed to do these things because they understand the risks and choose to get it done. It is a right that women already have. Who are you to take it away? We don't need some man trying to tell us what we can and cannot do to our bodies as adults. STF is certainly not doing that. Neither should you. He is asking that the woman defer the decision into adulthood as it is a practice mentioned in daim ul Islam and women already have the right to choose in adulthood whether or not to get dehooded. His statement does not include a recommendation for the adult woman. It is completely her choice. Also it categorically forbids cutting of minors. As a woman, I am pleased that the choice of the adult woman is preserved. And we really would like men to STOP trying to restrict those rights.

Also. I don't understand what's so political about responding with compassion to the pleas of thousands of women? He issued his statement and since then has been quiet on the topic. In the End FGM group there is only one Fatemi Dawat person speaking out and she has been speaking out against FGM for a couple decades now. The rest of the women are mufaddalies and reformists. So quit your bellyaching about STF's statement. FGM has come to an end in Fatemi Dawat. It's over. Finito.

SBM
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Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#857

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 14, 2017 7:56 am

I don't know what your problem is with adult women choosing to do with their bodies as they please
Not the same but close Analogy:
Should Adult person, man or woman be allowed how they take their life. Do you know Committing SUICIDE is a crime in India. If an adult person wants to take his or her own life (which is a physical harm to their bodies) why should Government interfere?
Sister CL
some of the argument you put forward about female doing with their bodies, I agree BUT
"None of these body mutilation is sanctioned by any Religious Edicts or Leaders"
His statement does not include a recommendation for the adult woman
But there is subliminal message to follow Sunnat, with his current statement, he has left that wiggle room to change with "which way the wind is blowing"
In the End FGM group there is only one Fatemi Dawat person speaking out and she has been speaking out against FGM for a couple decades now
If that person from Fatemi Dawat has been speaking out against FGM for DECADES, then why SKQ never issued a fatwa when he had the second highest Rutba in Dawat and why did SKQ did not issue the fatwa when he declared himself as Dai or why did STF waited so long till those people got arrested in USA?
FGM has come to an end in Fatemi Dawat. It's over. Finito.
No, it is not, he may be called to testify about religious significance of FGM since STF is following the same religious principles as does SMS, once trials begins

sugguma
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Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#858

Unread post by sugguma » Sun May 14, 2017 9:33 am

And check out the mud-slinging between these two factions of 'men in white'.
Mud-slinging.gif
https://dearmrqutbuddin.wordpress.com/2014/12/
https://dearmrqutbuddin.wordpress.com/2014/12/page/2/
In the End FGM group there is only one Fatemi Dawat person speaking out and she has been speaking out against FGM for a couple decades now. The rest of the women are mufaddalies and reformists.
And Crater Lake, btw, who the fuck are YOU to label DBs posting on the End FGM group as "mufaddalies" (sic) and "reformists"???? Who the hell are YOU to question the faith, religiosity or sectarian leanings of these Dawoodi Bohras??? what makes or who anointed YOU as the spokesperson for all DB womenfolk around the world????
two views on khafz.jpg
STF on talaq & fgm.jpg

[url][http://www.fatemidawat.com/news/media/c ... 6.html/url]

http://www.mid-day.com/articles/i-unequ ... n/17241182

https://thewire.in/106134/fakhruddin-fgm-khafz-dawoodi/

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 168301.cms

http://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumb ... 380694.cms?

https://twitter.com/aqutbuddin/status/7 ... 8016105477

And by the way, Crater Lake, are you living blind-folded in a crater or under a stone at the bottom of a lake????!!!! Wake up, and smell the coffee...
Last edited by sugguma on Wed May 17, 2017 8:21 am, edited 4 times in total.

yfm
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#859

Unread post by yfm » Sun May 14, 2017 3:04 pm

Any updates from Kim and manufacturing and dalchawal palidu?

yfm
Posts: 172
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#860

Unread post by yfm » Sun May 14, 2017 3:12 pm

The question is why Seyedna Qutbuddin made Nass on his son and not on the son of Seyedna Muffadal? I believe Muffdal's son is Seyedna Qutbuddin's daughters son? Things could have better for the bohras.

Biradar
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Re: Sticky: Dawoodi Bohra's Succession of Dai Case in Mumbai High Court

#861

Unread post by Biradar » Sun May 14, 2017 3:59 pm

yfm wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 3:12 pm
I believe Muffdal's son is Seyedna Qutbuddin's daughters son?
No.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#862

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun May 14, 2017 4:34 pm

Wow! Not quite sure all that is being said here...but Sugguma sure is angry about something! Let's trace what happened here...Some women approached STF to make a statement that would End FGM in his community. He did. Now these women are angry that he did?

Yes of course there was widespread FGM among Bohras for centuries. All Fatemi Dawat people are Bohras so I am sure that some of them had their daughters cut. But I know many who didn't. For what it is worth, FD women are critical thinkers and I have spoken to many who have adult daughters and have not taken them for khafz when they were seven, simply because it was illegal. I know that Munira Hamza has been speaking openly against it for a very long time and has refrained from putting her daughter under the knife. I don't think that she has ever wavered on her stance. So not quite sure what you mean by getting the story straight. I am sure her story would stand up to scrutiny by law enforcement. She has been a vocal opponent of khafz since Burhanuddin Moula's time and since her daughter was seven. In fact she has managed to turn around the views of her relatives who had been pressuring her all those years ago such that now these relatives have not allowed it on their grand daughters. As far as labelling people, my apologies. My intention was not to insult anyone or their religiosity but simply to highlight affiliation. I am a member of Fatemi Dawat and I am often called a Qutubi Bohra. I don't like it because I identify myself as Dawoodi bohra. So if I offend people by calling them mufaddalies or reformists, my apologies.
I do stand by a woman's right to choose what she does to her body. Not because I care about khafz( I don't. Just like a majority of FD women I chose not to get it done for my daughters even though they were seven during Burhanuddin Moula's time) but because I generally believe in keeping the governments (and clerics!!) out of people's pants and people's bedrooms. However should any of us have excessive prepuce tissue and want to avail of the procedure in adulthood, the governement should have no business stopping us.
Last edited by Crater Lake on Sun May 14, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Biradar
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Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#863

Unread post by Biradar » Sun May 14, 2017 4:42 pm

Strange and sad that the men here still want to control how women behave, what they say and what they think. The response from the ridiculous buffoon sugguma is to be expected, but friend SBM I am disappointed in your behavior. In one place you show you are compassionate and kind (which I believe you are), and in another you seem to suggest you want to control what an adult woman does with her own body and life. Sad.

The simple principle here is the following: an adult, man or woman, should be free to do as he or she pleases with his or her life. As long as harm to others is not involved, none of us have the right to control another's life. Yes, we can give them some advice, but not put pressure on them. If we do, how are we different than the religious fanatics we oppose?

Also, Crater Lake has made important points here. As far as the FD people are concerned, FGM is non-issue. Almost no adult woman will choose to do this to herself, and so for all practical purposes FGM is no longer practiced in the FD community.

Incidentally, something which people here don't seem to understand. Muffy himself can't be held accountable for his speech. That is the whole point of free-speech laws in the US. Even hate speech is protected in the US. The only speech which is not allowed is one which advocates for immediate violence. As far as I know, Muffy has not said anything like this (i.e. inciting a riot or fights) in the US. Hence he, or other religious leaders can't be held responsible for speech. Only actions can be judged.

Also, people who think STF will have to testify are high on some controlled substances. What has FD got to do with this case? Only Nagarwala and the other doctors are responsible for their own actions. Quite correctly, the court decided not to take away the girls from their parents, as very likely the parents love them and separation will cause further trauma to the kids. In this case, the correct approach is to go after those who carry out the procedure, those who provide material support, and those who attempt to cover up crimes. There are many obnoxious things in the Bible and the Quran, and the courts can't start prosecute people who simply preach from these books. Illegal actions must be punished, not mere words.

As to the timing of STF's announcement. Yes, it appears to be suspicious, but we need to give him the benefit of the doubt here. It seems, nothing makes people happy! If he had said nothing, we would cursing him, and now that he has said something we are questioning motive and timing. The history of the Bohras in the last 75 years is very convoluted and complex, and it is not clear exactly what compulsions were on what people. We do not know what the internal politics and pressures were on SKQ. I personally know that in one-on-one meetings he often advised contrary to the mad fatwas from the Kothari goons. He was obviously upset about the discrimination based on money, and I can vouch that he did not discriminate amongst people based on their wealth. In many ways, he was a classical liberal, and certainly an intellectual. He loved learning and encouraged others to learn too.

We are all from India, or at least understand something about our history. Let us look at the Mahabharata. In it, many noble folks keep quiet when atrocities are being done, and eventually, due to circumstances, are unable to side with the Pandavas in the final war. Think of the actions of Bhisma. He tries his best to prevent the war and teach Duryodhan that his actions are evil, but in the end he is compelled to fight against the Pandavas. Yet, Bhisma is respected by everyone, and both sides consider him to be a pillar or virtue and saintliness.

Often, we do not fully know the internal politics and compulsions. Hence, we must judge people on their present actions, and not set up a standard so high that even we, or the best amongst us, can't meet it. We are all guilty in some way of the system going the way it has. Most of us have chosen to remain anonymous. We have kept quiet when we saw someone else get in trouble with the Kothari Mafia. We did not stand up to the goonda Aamil when he did something unfair or evil. However, now we have an opportunity to side by a group who seems to be doing the right thing. Let us not bicker. Perhaps STF was being cynical, but still what he said was the right thing. FD is being transparent and open about many things. Let us take that as a good sign and encourage that, and not, like cynical old folks, just bah-humbug every single thing.

SBM
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#864

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 14, 2017 5:13 pm

Br Biradar and Sister CL
I am not in any way suggesting that women should not be allowed to decide what should they do with their bodies but I was trying to make a point about Fatemi Dawat's reaction. To me it is Johnny come lately approach.
Again if Fatemi Dawat followers were speaking out against FGM for 2 decades then why SKQ and STF did not issue a decree and waited only after they were forced to do.
To Sister Crater Lake: Would STF approve of women not wearing Rida and attending the Majaalis. Would he approve of Tattoos on their bodies? Again my point he still left the wiggle room in his edict and if the court rules in favor of SMS, he may revert back to please the base.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#865

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun May 14, 2017 5:15 pm

Sugguma took great pleasure in saying that FGM is not so finito in FD. Actually the cutting of minors as a practice IS over in Fatemi Dawat. STF's statement, however people may choose to label it, has put an end to it. It is a victory for activists both within and outside of FD and it speaks to the compassion and wisdom of the leader. Enjoy your victory ladies instead of raining on your own parade.

SBM
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#866

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 14, 2017 5:16 pm

What has FD got to do with this case
Since Nagarwala and Attar are fighting this case on the religious freedom ground and entire Muslim Scholars have come against it, there is a probability that FD people may have to testify whether he agrees with Dawoodi Bohra customs or Muslim Scholars since this practice was allowed when his father was Mazoon and later Dai.

Biradar
Posts: 875
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:13 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#867

Unread post by Biradar » Sun May 14, 2017 5:26 pm

SBM wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 5:16 pm
What has FD got to do with this case
Since Nagarwala and Attar are fighting this case on the religious freedom ground and entire Muslim Scholars have come against it, there is a probability that FD people may have to testify whether he agrees with Dawoodi Bohra customs or Muslim Scholars since this practice was allowed when his father was Mazoon and later Dai.
He already has made his statement. He can't be compelled to testify, BTW, in any case. That is not how it works. Often, people file friends-of-court briefs to help the judges. Which FD won't do, as it makes no sense. This case is still very early, and it is a criminal case at present, not one of civil rights.

Incidentally, one should not think that FGM was done on 100% of women. I am sure numbers are hard to come by, but many parents choose not to do things even if their religious leaders say to do them. Hence, in general, there is a divide between the sensible and senseless already. Now that this issue is out in the open, and STF has instructed his followers not to perform FGM on children, others, even in the Muffy camp, can decide to ditch the practice. I am sure many parents see that this is an unethical practice, and that Muffy is a backward barbarian. So, even if they follow (or pretend to follow) Muffy, they now can choose to ignore his mad rantings.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#868

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun May 14, 2017 5:27 pm

SBM wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 5:13 pm
Br Biradar and Sister CL
I am not in any way suggesting that women should not be allowed to decide what should they do with their bodies but I was trying to make a point about Fatemi Dawat's reaction. To me it is Johnny come lately approach.
Again if Fatemi Dawat followers were speaking out against FGM for 2 decades then why SKQ and STF did not issue a decree and waited only after they were forced to do.
To Sister Crater Lake: Would STF approve of women not wearing Rida and attending the Majaalis. Would he approve of Tattoos on their bodies? Again my point he still left the wiggle room in his edict and if the court rules in favor of SMS, he may revert back to please the base.
Ah but you are so wrong. STF's base is not supportive of cutting of minors. STF IS NOT supportive of cutting of minors. I still don't understand what is so suspicious about his timing. His statement was a very swift response to the request by the activists. An issue was brought to his notice and he reacted swiftly with compassion. The timing of his statement was as suspicious as the timing of the request that he responded to.

Secondly the FD person who has been opposed to khafz for a while was part of a unified community under Syedna Burhanuddin until January 2014. She was agitating among friends and family to save little girls in her circle, including her daughter. She was fighting a lone battle. this was about 20 years ago and there was no social media ubiquity for her voice to be heard throughout the community.

As far as burning issues such as tattoos or rida wearing or attending majlis, STF has long held that there is no compulsion in deen. The doors to his guidance are always open and those who seek his wisdom will receive it.
Last edited by Crater Lake on Sun May 14, 2017 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SBM
Posts: 6243
Joined: Sun May 09, 2004 4:01 am

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#869

Unread post by SBM » Sun May 14, 2017 5:36 pm

A question for FD follower since I am not in the camp
How are children named upon birth? Can parents give the names as they wish or they still follow SMB and SMS dictates of getting names of their children from Kothar?

BTW Biradar
I do agree with you that Judge was wise in letting parents keep their children. I read the Guardian Ad Litum was not very happy and she did everything to keep children in foster care since her motive was to bring up the children in Non Muslim environment and collect the money from court for being Foster Parents. I also believe that children of Nagarwala and Attar be allowed to stay with their extended family.
That is why I had mentioned about FD hierarchy reaching out to court about being Foster Families for these children as there may be more who may face the same dilemma.
If that happens in my neck of wood, I guarantee you that I have spoken to many Muslim families about becoming Foster Parents and we will reach out to local US Attorney (we do have a good working relationship with DOJ/DHS) to work with Muslim community to grant us the custody. We have already be fostering Rohingya and Syrian Children as well from Afghanistan too.

Crater Lake
Posts: 311
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Practice Of Female Circumcision Among Bohra Muslims.

#870

Unread post by Crater Lake » Sun May 14, 2017 6:00 pm

SBM wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 5:36 pm
A question for FD follower since I am not in the camp
How are children named upon birth? Can parents give the names as they wish or they still follow SMB and SMS dictates of getting names of their children from Kothar?
as I said earlier SBM, Fatemi Dawat has long maintained that there is no compulsion in deen. Those who wish to receive a name from STF, will get one. Those who don't, can name their child themselves. These are not burning issues of faith and religion. The burning issues of faith are making efforts to understand our creator and the purpose of his creation and to live upstanding lives in order to earn the happiness of the Almighty. The dai's role is to be a guide to his followers if and when they need one. Some seek his guidance constantly others are happy to make their decisions based on his bayans. One of STF's recent bayaans that I find myself going to often is that we are the Rasool of Allah's ummate wasat. The people of the middle path. The people of moderation. It is a guiding principle for leading my life and making life decisions.