a even more radical thought

[haamid]

what i would like to know is wether the muslims giving sajda/tawaf to kaaba is the same as hindus worshiping idols as both are made of stone by man

[humble_servant_us]

Salaam,
Worship or ibadah in islam is to submit yourself to the will of Allah(swt), ie.to live life by following what allah(swt) has commanded and to restrain from what HE(swt) has prohibited.

Regarding sajda a classic eg. is the Allah(swt) asking Angels to prostrate to H. Adam(as)...

Find out for yourself whether doing tawaf is for what purpose..

[Humsafar]

I agree with you haamid. Tawaaf is a pre-islamic pagan ritual which is at odds with Islam's founding principle banishing all idol-worship.

[Zeal]

Humsafar,
You cannot agree with Haamid bcoz he is not giving any statement but is asking a question.

[Humsafar]

Nice catch Zeal. Thanks.

So, let me rephrase that: Tawaaf is a pre-islamic pagan ritual which is at odds with Islam's founding principle banishing all idol-worship. To me the answer to the question - whether this is like Hindu idol worship or not - is obvious. You are welcome to inpterpret it as you deem fit.

[anajmi]

The concept of Tawaaf is pre-Islamic agreed. How do you know that? Through Islamic history and traditions. Islamic history and tradition also states that Islam is the true religion from day one. Infact it was Adam (as) who built the Kaaba and then it was rebuilt by Ebrahim (as).

Pagans only corrupted the practice by worshipping idols placed inside the kaaba and by doing tawaaf naked. Even the pagans never worshipped the kaaba.

It is similar to the situation today where according to the reformists the kothar has corrupted the institution of the Dai. The progressives want to eliminate the kothar but maintain the institution of the Dai.

Besides Tawaaf has nothing to do with idol worship. It demonstrates ignorance about both.

Idol worship is when you expect the idol to help you out and become happy with your rituals directed towards it. No such sentiment exists during tawaaf. No muslims says "Ya Kaaba, help me" or expects the Kaaba to be happy with the tawaaf directed towards it.

[anajmi]

One other thing, an Idol represents a living creature, a "Dev" or "Devi" if you will, that is living, somewhere. The Kaaba represents no such thing.

[Humsafar]

It is similar to the situation today where according to the reformists the kothar has corrupted the institution of the Dai. The progressives want to eliminate the kothar but maintain the institution of the Dai.

So in a roundabout way you're accepting that the reformists are doing the right thing.

[anajmi]

It's a pity seeing to scraping the bottom of the barrel for a good argument.

[anajmi]

It's a pity seeing you scraping the bottom of the barrel for a good argument.

[Average Bohra]

an Idol represents a living creature, a "Dev" or "Devi" if you will, that is living, somewhere. The Kaaba represents no such thing.

In the 1920's, when the Wahhabis conquered Mecca, they destroyed the "Jannat al-Baqi" graveyard which contains the graves of the Prophet Muhammed's family and companions. They also looted the Grand Mosque in Medina and destroyed Prophet Muhammed's house where he received the Revelations..."the city planning authorities in Medina, known for their Wahhabi extremism, have ordered the leveling of five of seven mosques built in the city by Muhammad`s daughter and four of his companions. These structures are the Mosque of Sayyida Fatima bint Rasulillah, Salman al-Farsi Mosque, Abu Bakr Mosque, Umar ibn al-Khattab Mosque, and Mosque of Ali ibn Abi Talib."

In March 2001, the Taliban ordered the demolition of two statues of Buddha carved into cliffsides at Bamiyan, one 38 metres tall and about 1800 years old, the other 53 metres tall and about 1500 years old.

a decree was issued claiming <u>all idols must be destroyed as per Islamic law that prohibits any form of idol worship as shirk </u>(i.e., a sin).

[Humsafar]

It's a pity seeing to scraping the bottom of the barrel for a good argument.

Quite the contrary, brother. The good - and easy - argument would've been to take you on on the Kabaa issue. You're clearly struggling there trying your daranest to separate it from idol worship. "The sacraping of the bottom of the barrel" was meant as an escape hatch for you. Pity you failed to take it.

[anajmi]

Humsafar,

Thank you for being so considerate. I am getting sick and tired of arguing with you.

[Humsafar]

I agree, this is how it must feel when one's dogma allows for no new light and air. It must also be pretty musty and rancid in there!

[anajmi]

I don't have a problem with new light and air. Just that, when coming from you, the air is pretty hot.

[Humsafar]

I don't have a problem with new light and air. Just that, when coming from you, the air is pretty hot.

Nice play on words, anajmi. But I'm sure it's not as hot as the one coming from the Arabian desert. What do thet call it, shamaal?

[haamid]

i do not agree with anajmi when he says that hindu idols represent dev or devi,to me thats better then giving sajda to something that represents nothing.uby his argument it would be better to worship a stone if it represents nothing but if it represents a baghwan according to hindus then its idol worshippind

[pro_pig]

haamid
oh really what agreat thought

[AkilE]

ASW

When most Muslims circumnavigate the Kaaba they are not worshiping the stone. The Prophet (SAW) also performed in this same way (according to hadiths) and this was part of performing Haj, a requisite for any Muslim. If you believe that the Prophet has committed shirk by performing tawaaf, then you are very far away from the religion.

Idol worship is when in your mind and actions, you elevate an object / human to the status of God or having a relationship with God. There is no connection here.

In Islam as in all great religions, mental purity is as important as the physical side. By thinking that a stone structure or other being, can listen to your inner wishes and duas, and make things happen is exactly what the message of all the Prophets was – the oneness of Allah.

WSL

[haamid]

i never said that our prophet was wrong he was definately right but my question still stands that is it idol worship or not and so far nabody has given a satisfactory reply,maybe the learned will reply

[haamid]

how can giving sajda/tawaf to kaaba a stone structure made by man lead to oneness of allah, i do not understand

[hc]

In case you have not already read it at islamhelpline.com

"(Question No.224)Is worshipping the Kaa’ba similar to Hindus worshipping idols?"

http://islamhelpline.com/view_answers.asp?QAID=4042

[hc]

Some more from the talk about "Misconceptions of Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Islam/misconcep.html

<snip>

Misconception # 9: Going around the Kabah is idol worship.

Reply: No religion is more vocal in condemning idol worship than Islam. The Muslims do not worship Kabah, only God, or Allah. While circumambulating the Kabah they chant: La Illa Ha Ill-lal-lah. (There is no object worthy of worship but Allah).

The Kabah is for unifying Muslims at prayer. It would be chaotic if Muslims prayed in any direction they chose. The Kabah provides a chance to unify in prayer as all Muslims face one spot, the Kabah. Throughout the globe people from various countries face North, South, East and West only to face the Kabah. When the Arabs drew the map of the globe, they put Makkah in the center; but when the Western people gained power, they put Greenwich in the center. But if you look at the map, Makkah continues to be in the center of the globe even today. Alhamdulillah!

Some accuse Muslims to be idol worshippers because they kiss the black rock at Kabah. This they do only because they saw the prophet do it. The black stone has no power to benefit or harm you. In olden times, the call to prayer was given by standing on the top of Kabah. If Muslims were idol worshippers, would they stand on top of their 'idol' and call people to pray. Does a Hindu or a Christian stand on top of their idols and call others to join in the worship?

</snip>

[Muslim First]

.

Significance of Performing Tawaf

.

[Muslim First]

.

Br. Haamid

I am posting following link where many questions regarding Hajj and Umarah are answered. I hope uou find answer.

Wasalaam
.
Hajj & 'Umrah

.

[pro_pig]

what a great people on this sites

[pro_pig]

pls thing then talk gaining little knowledge cannot win againts allah or compete

[SBM]

Pro Pig
Can you please decipher what you are trying to say in your last post??????????????
BTW why are you shying away from replying to questions in Birthday link?????????

[tahir]

Originally posted by hc:
Some more from the talk about "Misconceptions of Islam" by Dr. Zakir Naik.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Islam/misconcep.html

<snip>

Misconception # 7: Muslims are ruthless non-vegetarian people.

ZN: If no one eats meat the number of cattle will be uncontrollable. It will be a big problem about how to dispose of them.

</snip>

It is the most common arguement thrown to me while making a case for vegetarian food among my bohra parents and other relatives. Somehow they fail to realise that it is humans who breed cattle for consumption else nature is capable of taking care of cattle populaion through its own ingenious checks and balances.

The only species whose uncontrolled population growth is posing a threat to this planet is HUMAN BEING. I wonder what 'remedy' Zakir Naik suggests for this.

[AkilE]

ASK

These links are really good. The Phophets' message of oneness of Allah means that other idols must not be created.

If the Kaaba was an idol, Prophets would have shunned tawaafs and visiting it altogether.

WSL